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The P-38 didn't shine flying out of England. But in the Pacific the AAF wanted every one they could get
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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The P-38 didn't shine flying out of England. But in the Pacific the AAF wanted every one they could get keep in mind though they ordered them earlier they got both the P-38's and the p-51's at about the same time, with in a few months of each other anyway...granted it took a bit before they put the bigger engine in the Mustang it didnt take them that long....had they got the P38 earlier they may have been happier with it given its long legs compared to the other planes on order in '39 but by 41/42 it was less of an issue with the 51 around
A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Not 'til they put air-breaks (5th edition?) on them anyway, to keep them from going out of control and inverted in a dive. Here's a comprehensive account of the P-38 in Europe. When I was a kid I thought all you had to do was climb in and fly. Who knew? http://www.ausairpower.net/P-38-Analysis.htmlTo: Commanding General, VIII Fighter Command, APO 637, U.S. Army.
1. The following observations are being put in writing by the undersigned at the request of the Commanding General, VII FC. They are intended purely as constructive criticism and are intended in any way to "low rate" our present equipment.
2. After flying the P-38 for a little over one hundred hours on combat missions it is my belief that the airplane, as it stands now, is too complicated for the 'average' pilot. I want to put strong emphasis on the word 'average, taking full consideration just how little combat training our pilots have before going on as operational status.
3. As a typical case to demonstrate my point, let us assume that we have a pilot fresh out of flying school with about a total of twenty-five hours in a P-38, starting out on a combat mission. He is on a deep ramrod, penetration and target support to maximum endurance. He is cruising along with his power set at maximum economy. He is pulling 31" Hg and 2100 RPM. He is auto lean and running on external tanks. His gun heater is off to relieve the load on his generator, which frequently gives out (under sustained heavy load). His sight is off to save burning out the bulb. His combat switch may or may not be on. Flying along in this condition, he suddenly gets "bounced", what to do flashes through his mind. He must turn, he must increase power and get rid of those external tanks and get on his main. So, he reaches down and turns two stiff, difficult gas switches {valves} to main - turns on his drop tank switches, presses his release button, puts the mixture to auto rich (two separate and clumsy operations), increases his RPM, increases his manifold pressure, turns on his gun heater switch (which he must feel for and cannot possibly see), turns on his combat switch and he is ready to fight. At this point, he has probably been shot down or he has done one of several things wrong. Most common error is to push the throttles wide open before increasing RPM. This causes detonation and subsequent engine failure. Or, he forgets to switch back to auto rich, and gets excessive cylinder head temperature with subsequent engine failure.
4. In my limited experience with a P-38 group, we have lost as least four (4) pilots, who when bounced, took no immediate evasive action. The logical assumption is that they were so busy in the cockpit, trying to get organized that they were shot down before they could get going.
5. The question that arises is, what are you going to do about it? It is standard procedure for the group leader to call, five minutes before R/V and tell all the pilots to "prepare for trouble". This is the signal for everyone to get into auto rich, turn drop tank switches on, gun heaters on, combat and sight switches on and to increase RPM and manifold pressure to maximum cruise. This procedure, however, does not help the pilot who is bounced on the way in and who is trying to conserve his gasoline and equipment for the escort job ahead.
6. What is the answer to these difficulties? During the past several weeks we have been visited at this station time and time again by Lockheed representatives, Allison representatives and high ranking Army personnel connected with these two companies. They all ask about our troubles and then proceed to tell us about the marvelous mechanisms that they have devised to overcome these troubles that the Air Force has turned down as "unnecessary". Chief among these is a unit power control, incorporating an automatic manifold pressure regulator, which will control power, RPM and mixture by use of a single lever. It is obvious that there is a crying need for a device like that in combat.
7. It is easy to understand why test pilots, who have never been in combat, cannot readily appreciate what each split second means when a "bounce" occurs. Every last motion when you get bounced is just another nail in your coffin. Any device which would eliminate any of the enumerated above, are obviously very necessary to make the P-38 a really effective combat airplane.
8. It is also felt that that much could done to simplify the gas switching system in this airplane. The switches {valve selector handles} are all in awkward positions and extremely hard to turn. The toggle switches for outboard tanks are almost impossible to operate with gloves on.
9. My personal feeling about this airplane is that it is a fine piece of equipment, and if properly handled, takes a back seat for nothing that the enemy can produce. But it does need simplifying to bring it within the capabilities of the 'average' pilot. I believe that pilots like Colonel Ben Kelsey and Colonel Cass Huff are among the finest pilots in the world today. But I also believe that it is difficult for men like them to place their thinking and ability on the level of a youngster with a bare 25 hours in the airplane, going into his first combat. That is the sort of thinking that will have to be done, in my opinion, to make the P-38 a first-class all around fighting airplane....and getting frostbite at 60 below... "These new pilots made their attempts to go to altitude. This is what the curriculum called for and they gave it their best, but those early airplanes, the way they were set up, just wouldn't make it. There were disastrous incidents of ignition breakdown because of high-tension leakage. The oxygen systems were woefully inadequate. This is what they put into the airplane and the pilot in the cockpit was stuck with he had. It just wouldn't do the job. No one liked 30,000 feet anyway. There had been no training for it. There had never been any need for it. It was too cold and the windows frosted up."
"All this piled up on the 8th Air Force pilots, but there they were at 30,000 feet plus and sixty below zero. It was miserable."
"Then things really started to come apart. Now, suddenly, turbochargers were running away. They were blowing up engines on the basis of one engine blow up every seven hours. Intercoolers were separating the lead from the fuel and the result was lowered octane. Hands and feet were freezing; pilots were calling their airplanes airborne ice wagons and they were right. Frost on the windows got thicker than ever. Most disgusting of all was the leisurely way the German fighters made their get-aways straight down."
"Another problem seldom mentioned was the single generator problem. If a generator was lost or a low battery the Curtis Electric prop would lose the Dynamic Brake and go to extreme Low Pitch. This was called a RUN AWAY. It could happen on Take Off with a low battery. Since you couldn't feather it set up a lot of drag making it difficult to make it around to land. The Killer situation was to lose the Generator or lose the engine with the Generator on it while 2 or 3hrs into Germany. Procedure was to SET the Props then turn off all electrical power. Then momentarily turn it back on to reset the props as needed. Being sure everything electrical was also turned off -- No Radios. The forgotten thing was you were at altitude and the OAT was -60degrees and the little old battery was cold soaked. Hence, dead as a dog. Result, with a lot of altitude you have less than an hour with one or two props in RUNAWAY.
I have no statistics to back me up on this, but believe, that more P-38s were lost from this than any other factor including combat. This simple problem did not receive attention until April, '44."
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
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Adolf Galland was a loser, much like der Fuhrer.
The P38 racked up the highest number of kills in the Pacific of any fighter.
Then there is the F8 Bearcat. Shame it was late on the scene.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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While I'm at it, there was another one, the P47 Thunderbolt. More chopped liver I guess.
Had a friend long passed that had the pleasure (?) of flying both the 38 and 47 in Yurp back in the day. He preferred the Jug, saying the rather large powerplant was far better at moving trees out of the way during unscheduled landings in forested areas. His opinion was one based on experience. He was not too fond of German prison cuisine.
Yamamoto thought the 38 was a POS too.
My point, if any, there is no such thing as an ultimate combat fighter. Some have more eye appeal certainly, but they all had strengths and weaknesses. The sum of their strengths and the wisdom to deploy them properly was key to the favorable conclusion to WW2.
Liquid cooling of the powerplant in the Mustang was one of it's weaknesses though it lent itself to great streamlining. Least little leak from a ding in the radiator meant "mission terminated".
Winners and losers.....
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I've researched these numbers for yrs and they do vary slightly but overall are close enuff for comparison.
The F6F shined the last two yrs of the war and racked up its impressive numbers mostly from the decks of our carrier fleet against a dwindling Japanese pilot pool..
Single theater of OPS,#1 would be the
F6F Hellcat, with 5,168 kills in the Pacific Theater of Operations. Next would be the P-51 Mustang with 4,950 kills in the European Theater of Operations.
For the entire war combined, in all theaters, it would be the P-51 Mustang with 5,954 kills in ETO, MTO, PTO, and CBI all combined, followed by the Hellcat with 5,168 in PTO and ETO.
These numbers come from a 1945-1946 report compiled by the US Navy for the Hellcat and the Air Force Historical Society for the P-51. The Hellcat and Mustang are neck in neck for the title.
#3 on the kill list goes to the P-38, with 3,785 in all Theaters of operation combined. The theater of operations with the most enemy aircraft shot down was the PTO, with 12,666 enemy aircraft shot down.
F4U numbers although impressive were only around 2150 plus or minus.
These totals also include non air to air engagements with bombers,float planes and static ground attack kills.
You better be afraid of a ghost!!
"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops
Woody
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Stand corrected Woody. The 38 was high scorer for AAF aircraft in the PTO, not overall.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I just finished reading Robin Olds' autobiography, Fighter Pilot. Olds loved the P38 and had several victories in it in Europe before it was replaced by the P51, which he considered a far superior fighter. He didn't get too technical about it, but he did touch on the topic of how tricky the P38 was to fly and fight in.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Grew up watching Black Sheep Squadron, my favorite of all the WWII warbirds. P-51D a very close second. That show will be coming on again soon on ME TV I've been seeing the ads for about a week or so
One shot, one kill........ It saves a lot of ammo!
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Grew up watching Black Sheep Squadron, my favorite of all the WWII warbirds. P-51D a very close second. +1 so badass.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Adolf Galland was a loser, much like der Fuhrer. One can only be glad the Luftwaffe didn't have more losers like that. 705 combat missions, most of them over France, England and the Channel against the RAF, shot down four times (twice in the same day), 104 victories. Whatever else he was the guy walked the walk. He was up to 96 victories when he was grounded and promoted to General at the end of '41, and flew only unathorized missions against American bombers in '42,'43 and '44. Seven of the remaining eight official victories came after he was allowed to form the Me 262 jet unit in early 1945. While I'm at it, there was another one, the P47 Thunderbolt. More chopped liver I guess. ?? The P-38 over Europe likely killed more P-38 pilots than the Germans did. The P-47 however, was one of the war's success stories. Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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They lost. It is not a difficult thing to accept.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Wanaka New Zealand, nice place to view warbirds. I've got to wonder, why so many there?
Edit: Oops, wrong Island. Hood Aerodrome, Masterton NZ
Last edited by BeanMan; 09/01/14.
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Campfire Regular
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I've researched these numbers for yrs and they do vary slightly but overall are close enuff for comparison.
The F6F shined the last two yrs of the war and racked up its impressive numbers mostly from the decks of our carrier fleet against a dwindling Japanese pilot pool..
Single theater of OPS,#1 would be the
F6F Hellcat, with 5,168 kills in the Pacific Theater of Operations. Next would be the P-51 Mustang with 4,950 kills in the European Theater of Operations.
For the entire war combined, in all theaters, it would be the P-51 Mustang with 5,954 kills in ETO, MTO, PTO, and CBI all combined, followed by the Hellcat with 5,168 in PTO and ETO.
These numbers come from a 1945-1946 report compiled by the US Navy for the Hellcat and the Air Force Historical Society for the P-51. The Hellcat and Mustang are neck in neck for the title.
#3 on the kill list goes to the P-38, with 3,785 in all Theaters of operation combined. The theater of operations with the most enemy aircraft shot down was the PTO, with 12,666 enemy aircraft shot down.
F4U numbers although impressive were only around 2150 plus or minus.
These totals also include non air to air engagements with bombers,float planes and static ground attack kills. This is all true... The Hellcat carried to load as a USN CV fighter plane. The Corsair was not Carrier certified by the USN. The USMC used them from air strips. The Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm taught us how to safely land the Corsair on a CV. But that was late in the Pacific war for the USN. The Corsair did well flying combat off Royal Navy CV's just as soon as they bought them.
Last edited by idahoguy101; 09/01/14.
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Campfire Regular
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When I was around 10 years old a Corsair made a stop at my hometown airstrip. It was very impressive just sitting there. Watching it fire up and warm would make any kid a fan of those radial engines. The pilot told us to stick around as he was going to show us why the Corsair was called Whistling Death. He did a low pass I will never, ever forget. Yes it definitely whistled.....
I don't eat anything that didn't have a mother.
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WW II pilot finally sees his own crash. https://www.youtube.com/embed/ie3SrjLlcUYA recent post we all enjoyed.....watch the entire thing again or zip to 4:29 to hear his experiences with the P-38/F5. Every aircraft has its initial issues.
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Campfire Regular
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When I was going to college Black Sheep was in its hayday. Pappy Boyington came to our college and gave a lecture on the show and the F4U and to tell some war time stories. He also said that those planes were suppose to fly carrier but they had so much torque that if you were not a good pilot that those planes would under full throttle on take off would roll over on take off so they tried to land base them to give them more runway to take off. Don't know if that is gospel but those were the stories he told.
Writing from the gateway to the great BluMtns in southeastern Washington.
Just remember, "You are the trailer park and I am the tornado". Beth Dutton, Yellowstone.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Posts: 37,892 |
Just out of curiosity I google up Galland's tally.... http://www.luftwaffe.cz/gallanda.html53 Spitfires, 31 Hurricanes. Eighty-six of his ninety-six victories by the end of 1941 being against RAF fighters, including five aces, three fatally shot down, one seriously burned and out of further combat. The fifth was Al Deere, who would himself survive the war with 32 victories. When Hitler grounded Galland he did us a real favor. That early in the war at least there seems to have been considerable chivalry between opposing pilots, both in Europe and in North Africa, Galland refusing to shoot aircrew in parachutes and being instrumental in obtaining new wooden legs for Douglas Bader. Ya he was on the wrong side fighting for an evil cause but a remarkable pilot nonetheless. Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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While I'm at it, there was another one, the P47 Thunderbolt. More chopped liver I guess. Growing up in the 60s, my best friends father had been a WW 2 fighter pilot with experience in multiple different planes, both theaters. His favorite plane, bar none was the P-47. "Why" we asked ? Two reasons, he answered. #1 A thick sheet of steel armor right behind the pilots seat, thick enough to stop a 8mm machine gun bullet. #2 The very heavy and powerful P-47 could out dive just about anything, giving the pilot a sure escape from a bad situation.
MOLON LABE
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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While I'm at it, there was another one, the P47 Thunderbolt. More chopped liver I guess. Growing up in the 60s, my best friends father had been a WW 2 fighter pilot with experience in multiple different planes, both theaters. His favorite plane, bar none was the P-47. "Why" we asked ? Two reasons, he answered. #1 A thick sheet of steel armor right behind the pilots seat, thick enough to stop a 8mm machine gun bullet. #2 The very heavy and powerful P-47 could out dive just about anything, giving the pilot a sure escape from a bad situation. Thank you. Good stuff...
Epstein didn't kill himself.
"Play Cinnamon Girl you Sonuvabitch!"
Biden didn't win the election.
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