Birdwatcher, believe Preston's book "The Hot Zone" was based on fact. At that time, they were dealing with a strain (the only one of 5) that was not transmissible to humans, however, they didn't know that, and assumed it was as virulent and deadly as the other variants.
forepaw
"Only accurate rifles (that are light enough to be carried by a middle-aged man in rough country) are interesting"
The last numbers I heard was WHO predicting something like 20,000 infections and about 10,000 deaths. That does not worry me. Those numbers are not by themselves worrisome.
Statistically, in terms of epidemics that isn't much. It's a lot when compared to prior Ebola outbreaks, but still well within what may be explainable just by considering it's happening in a "new" population and much more densely populated area
Buying ground beef is a lot more worrisome to me. Eating a burger in a fast food restaurant is a lot more worrisome to me. Getting in a car wreck and needing surgery where I can be exposed to nasty bugs in a hospital is more of a worry.
In terms of Ebola, I do not like that it's been found in pigs in Asia. Mixing chickens/ducks/pigs in that part of the world keeps producing new flavors of influenza that kill many more people than 20,000 here in the USA and around the world.
The genome guys tell us Ebola has been around a long time. We only just discovered it kills people in the '70s??? That doesn't add up. I would not be a bit surprised to find out when we get the science done that a large number of Africans had immune competence at some level keeping prior outbreaks small and unnoticed.
Far and away the biggest threat to any of our well being is what we put in out bodies and our lack of exercise.
Birdwatcher, believe Preston's book "The Hot Zone" was based on fact. At that time, they were dealing with a strain (the only one of 5) that was not transmissible to humans, however, they didn't know that, and assumed it was as virulent and deadly as the other variants.
forepaw
The strain of Ebola (E. Reston) was transmissible to humans, it just didn't produce disease.
Far and away the biggest threat to any of our well being is what we put in out bodies and our lack of exercise.
True, but when you find a donut that makes me bleed out through my eyes a week after I eat it let me know.
You need to read up on what E. Coli 0157/H7 does to your body. That bacteria produces maybe 20,000 infections/year HERE. It can and does kill more people HERE than Ebola does there in a given year, and Ebola goes away for years at a time.
Like Ebola, E. coli is pretty easy to prevent or control. All you have to do is keep cow s--t out of your food. The reason we continue to have infections is that we have not only abandoned that simple common sense preventive, but we have established "standards" for how much cow s--t we allow in our food. THAT'S INSANE BEHAVIOR!!!
Even if you gut shoot all your deer. Even if you gut shoot all your deer with a 300 mag and light bullets. Even if you gut shoot all your deer with a 300 mag and light bullets and you smear the abdominal contents all over all of the meat and only cook it to rare, you are most unlikely to get an 0157/H7 infection.
Putting cattle in feed lots pretty well guarantees that anything one cow carries in it's gut all cows will carry in their gut. THE SIMPLE ACT OF FINISHING A COW ON GRASS FOR SEVERAL WEEKS CAN REDUCE THE E. COLI 0157/H7 IN IT'S GUT BY UP TO 90%. That without regard for whether the cow is layered in cow s--t outside. Think about the way we raise chickens and turkeys and pigs. Same s--t, different day! Think about the amount of antibiotics we put into the feed of cow, beef, pigs, chickens and turkeys. The gut bacteria in ALL of those anmals are being exposed to low levels of what to them are highly toxic substances. The bacteria are evolving at a rate of many, many generations/day. They are evolving resistance to the antibiotics we are exposing them to.
What is even more tragically stupid, is that we keep doing that knowing full well that the very same activity that makes the bacteria "stronger" produces allergic reactions in humans. Massive numbers of people are now allergic to antibiotics they have never had a prescription for, thanks to this insane practice. Most of them have no idea! Perhaps 1 in 10, perhaps 1 in 5, no one knows for sure, of those allergic to antibiotics will have a severe reaction, and their initial allergic reaction will cause anaphylaxis! I personally know two whose first reaction would have killed them had treatment not been administered much faster than would be possible for the average victim. The anthrax scare on the east coast in 1991 was followed by passing out Doxycycline like Pez to anyone who even remotely may have been exposed. Dox was promptly replaced by Ciprofloxacin because the numbers of people turning up allergic to Dox was really high. The passing out of Cipro likewise was halted shortly thereafter because so many people were still turning up allergic to it. This is people who've never had a prescription for either! You cannot have an allergic reaction to a substance your body has never seen. You immune system needs prior exposure to mount an allergic response, and usually needs more than one exposure to mount a massive response (anaphylaxis).
The numbers of people we kill annually with this insane behavior far outstrips Ebola. It poses a much greater threat to us.
Far and away the biggest threat to any of our well being is what we put in out bodies and our lack of exercise.
True, but when you find a donut that makes me bleed out through my eyes a week after I eat it let me know.
You need to read up on what E. Coli 0157/H7 does to your body. That bacteria produces maybe 20,000 infections/year HERE. It can and does kill more people HERE than Ebola does there in a given year, and Ebola goes away for years at a time.
Like Ebola, E. coli is pretty easy to prevent or control. All you have to do is keep cow s--t out of your food. The reason we continue to have infections is that we have not only abandoned that simple common sense preventive, but we have established "standards" for how much cow s--t we allow in our food. THAT'S INSANE BEHAVIOR!!!
Even if you gut shoot all your deer. Even if you gut shoot all your deer with a 300 mag and light bullets. Even if you gut shoot all your deer with a 300 mag and light bullets and you smear the abdominal contents all over all of the meat and only cook it to rare, you are most unlikely to get an 0157/H7 infection.
Putting cattle in feed lots pretty well guarantees that anything one cow carries in it's gut all cows will carry in their gut. THE SIMPLE ACT OF FINISHING A COW ON GRASS FOR SEVERAL WEEKS CAN REDUCE THE E. COLI 0157/H7 IN IT'S GUT BY UP TO 90%. That without regard for whether the cow is layered in cow s--t outside. Think about the way we raise chickens and turkeys and pigs. Same s--t, different day! Think about the amount of antibiotics we put into the feed of cow, beef, pigs, chickens and turkeys. The gut bacteria in ALL of those anmals are being exposed to low levels of what to them are highly toxic substances. The bacteria are evolving at a rate of many, many generations/day. They are evolving resistance to the antibiotics we are exposing them to.
What is even more tragically stupid, is that we keep doing that knowing full well that the very same activity that makes the bacteria "stronger" produces allergic reactions in humans. Massive numbers of people are now allergic to antibiotics they have never had a prescription for, thanks to this insane practice. Most of them have no idea! Perhaps 1 in 10, perhaps 1 in 5, no one knows for sure, of those allergic to antibiotics will have a severe reaction, and their initial allergic reaction will cause anaphylaxis! I personally know two whose first reaction would have killed them had treatment not been administered much faster than would be possible for the average victim. The anthrax scare on the east coast in 1991 was followed by passing out Doxycycline like Pez to anyone who even remotely may have been exposed. Dox was promptly replaced by Ciprofloxacin because the numbers of people turning up allergic to Dox was really high. The passing out of Cipro likewise was halted shortly thereafter because so many people were still turning up allergic to it. This is people who've never had a prescription for either! You cannot have an allergic reaction to a substance your body has never seen. You immune system needs prior exposure to mount an allergic response, and usually needs more than one exposure to mount a massive response (anaphylaxis).
The numbers of people we kill annually with this insane behavior far outstrips Ebola. It poses a much greater threat to us.
All excellent points, Miles. It was still insane beyond measure to intentionally bring a disease like Ebola into the US.
Far and away the biggest threat to any of our well being is what we put in out bodies and our lack of exercise.
True, but when you find a donut that makes me bleed out through my eyes a week after I eat it let me know.
You need to read up on what E. Coli 0157/H7 does to your body. That bacteria produces maybe 20,000 infections/year HERE. It can and does kill more people HERE than Ebola does there in a given year, and Ebola goes away for years at a time.
Like Ebola, E. coli is pretty easy to prevent or control. All you have to do is keep cow s--t out of your food. The reason we continue to have infections is that we have not only abandoned that simple common sense preventive, but we have established "standards" for how much cow s--t we allow in our food. THAT'S INSANE BEHAVIOR!!!
Even if you gut shoot all your deer. Even if you gut shoot all your deer with a 300 mag and light bullets. Even if you gut shoot all your deer with a 300 mag and light bullets and you smear the abdominal contents all over all of the meat and only cook it to rare, you are most unlikely to get an 0157/H7 infection.
Putting cattle in feed lots pretty well guarantees that anything one cow carries in it's gut all cows will carry in their gut. THE SIMPLE ACT OF FINISHING A COW ON GRASS FOR SEVERAL WEEKS CAN REDUCE THE E. COLI 0157/H7 IN IT'S GUT BY UP TO 90%. That without regard for whether the cow is layered in cow s--t outside. Think about the way we raise chickens and turkeys and pigs. Same s--t, different day! Think about the amount of antibiotics we put into the feed of cow, beef, pigs, chickens and turkeys. The gut bacteria in ALL of those anmals are being exposed to low levels of what to them are highly toxic substances. The bacteria are evolving at a rate of many, many generations/day. They are evolving resistance to the antibiotics we are exposing them to.
What is even more tragically stupid, is that we keep doing that knowing full well that the very same activity that makes the bacteria "stronger" produces allergic reactions in humans. Massive numbers of people are now allergic to antibiotics they have never had a prescription for, thanks to this insane practice. Most of them have no idea! Perhaps 1 in 10, perhaps 1 in 5, no one knows for sure, of those allergic to antibiotics will have a severe reaction, and their initial allergic reaction will cause anaphylaxis! I personally know two whose first reaction would have killed them had treatment not been administered much faster than would be possible for the average victim. The anthrax scare on the east coast in 1991 was followed by passing out Doxycycline like Pez to anyone who even remotely may have been exposed. Dox was promptly replaced by Ciprofloxacin because the numbers of people turning up allergic to Dox was really high. The passing out of Cipro likewise was halted shortly thereafter because so many people were still turning up allergic to it. This is people who've never had a prescription for either! You cannot have an allergic reaction to a substance your body has never seen. You immune system needs prior exposure to mount an allergic response, and usually needs more than one exposure to mount a massive response (anaphylaxis).
The numbers of people we kill annually with this insane behavior far outstrips Ebola. It poses a much greater threat to us.
Thanks for the background. So, I can assume I'm safe sticking to donuts?
Chances are pretty slim you'll run into something contagious with a donut.
TRH,
No, it was not insane to bring those two people here and treat them. They were treated safely and successfully by people who knew what they were doing and how to do it. We have had Ebola virus in the US since the '70s.
Dangerous is like the weaponized Smallpox the Russians have. They released some of it on an island and infected a person on a boat 9 miles away by published accounts. That person infected 9 others before Russia contained the outbreak. Three of the ten infected died. That's some dangerous s--t! Think about that... 9 miles away from a small release and it can kill you. You'd have to have a good sized nuke to do that.
The way to think about what I wrote above is this:
You go out for a burger. You get one slightly undercooked, not much, maybe not enough to notice. The next day you get up with a bad tummy. A little later, you have loose stools. A little later yet, and you're getting a headache.
If you're lucky and you're a person who goes to the doctor immediately for any sniffle, AND you get a doctor with nothing better to do than check you out thoroughly you get treatment right away and that treatment works. If not, you go home and take a nap. If you're lucky, you wind up in DocRocket's ER and he's not busy. If you're not, you go see your GP and he tells you that you have the flu. Go home and in a week you'll be better.
Go home, and you go unconscious in your sleep. You wind up in DocRockets ER, but now, you are quite literally at death's door. You're deep in shock from the massive load of toxins, your organs are already damaged, your kidneys are shutting down, you BP is so low Doc has to do a cut down on your thigh to get a vein big enough to get a line in and he has a nurse squeezing a bag of fluids for all she's worth trying to keep you alive. Doc can't tell for sure what kind of infection is is yet so he dumps three different antibiotics into you, hoping at least one will help. Unfortunately for you, one of the three bumps you into anaphylaxis and drives you deeper into shock. Maybe if it's really not your day, the bacteria is resistant to all three of the antibiotics and now your BP has been so low for so long that brain cells are dieing. Most of your organs are now permanently damaged and your kidneys have stopped working altogether. Doc being really, really good at what he does, manages to save your ass, but, now you're in need of new kidneys, you're brain damaged, your liver is cooked, your intestines are severely damaged and will never again function properly and on down the line. So, you move out of the ICU with the best option being a nursing home, dialysis, a feeding tube, an ostomy bag and a life expectancy of a few years before some other resistant bacteria finishes off the job.
The amount of time between the two outcomes is not hours. It's minutes. And, it's not very many minutes. You can quite literally be well enough to say I don't feel well, alert, functional, able to discuss whether you ought to go back to bed or call about an appointment to see Doc. Hesitate fifteen minutes and Doc may not be able to save you. I've seen it happen.
This is every bit as dangerous as Ebola, and it's something we are exposed to all the time. You can quite literally pick up a package of ground beef in a supermarket and have an E coli catastrophe in your hands. Just because we are stupid enough to allow fecal contamination and unnecessary antibiotics in our food instead of refusing it.
Please cite just one of those cases to which you speak, i.e., cases of pathological Ebola infection by persons in the US. Not talking about the harmless strains. I'm talking about the strains that are killing folks. Thanks. Look forward to your response.
Please cite just one of those cases to which you speak, i.e., cases of pathological Ebola infection by persons in the US. Not talking about the harmless strains. I'm talking about the strains that are killing folks. Thanks. Look forward to your response.
Did he say "infection"? I don't believe he did. You said "infection."
Thanks again Doc, and Miles for the great postings and general direction it's maintaining.
GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats -- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
Please cite just one of those cases to which you speak, i.e., cases of pathological Ebola infection by persons in the US. Not talking about the harmless strains. I'm talking about the strains that are killing folks. Thanks. Look forward to your response.
That we have had Ebola Zaire in this country for almost forty years without producing a single infection in a human is pretty convincing evidence it is no real threat. That we handled two infected persons through an intercontinental flight and cure is even more convincing.
That you cannot comprehend the above is also evidence, but not of whether Ebola is anything significant to worry about.
As I have said repeatedly in past discussion of this, read The Hot Zone by Preston and pay attention to the narrative and how the researchers did not get religion about the diseases they were handling until they had exposed themselves. The loss of one of them, just one would be a severe loss to us all.
With even reasonable precautions, we have proven we can handle Ebola and Ebola patients safely and effectively. All the small things are where the real threat lies. Comprehension of that is our largest threat far and away.
Please cite just one of those cases to which you speak, i.e., cases of pathological Ebola infection by persons in the US. Not talking about the harmless strains. I'm talking about the strains that are killing folks. Thanks. Look forward to your response.
That we have had Ebola Zaire in this country for almost forty years without producing a single infection in a human is pretty convincing evidence it is no real threat. That we handled two infected persons through an intercontinental flight and cure is even more convincing.
That you cannot comprehend the above is also evidence, but not of whether Ebola is anything significant to worry about.
As I have said repeatedly in past discussion of this, read The Hot Zone by Preston and pay attention to the narrative and how the researchers did not get religion about the diseases they were handling until they had exposed themselves. The loss of one of them, just one would be a severe loss to us all.
With even reasonable precautions, we have proven we can handle Ebola and Ebola patients safely and effectively. All the small things are where the real threat lies. Comprehension of that is our largest threat far and away.
What I'm getting from all that is that you cannot cite a single case of pathological Ebola in the US prior to the two brought in. Am I understanding you correctly?
Chances are pretty slim you'll run into something contagious with a donut.
TRH,
No, it was not insane to bring those two people here and treat them. They were treated safely and successfully by people who knew what they were doing and how to do it. We have had Ebola virus in the US since the '70s.
Dangerous is like the weaponized Smallpox the Russians have. They released some of it on an island and infected a person on a boat 9 miles away by published accounts. That person infected 9 others before Russia contained the outbreak. Three of the ten infected died. That's some dangerous s--t! Think about that... 9 miles away from a small release and it can kill you. You'd have to have a good sized nuke to do that.
The way to think about what I wrote above is this:
You go out for a burger. You get one slightly undercooked, not much, maybe not enough to notice. The next day you get up with a bad tummy. A little later, you have loose stools. A little later yet, and you're getting a headache.
If you're lucky and you're a person who goes to the doctor immediately for any sniffle, AND you get a doctor with nothing better to do than check you out thoroughly you get treatment right away and that treatment works. If not, you go home and take a nap. If you're lucky, you wind up in DocRocket's ER and he's not busy. If you're not, you go see your GP and he tells you that you have the flu. Go home and in a week you'll be better.
Go home, and you go unconscious in your sleep. You wind up in DocRockets ER, but now, you are quite literally at death's door. You're deep in shock from the massive load of toxins, your organs are already damaged, your kidneys are shutting down, you BP is so low Doc has to do a cut down on your thigh to get a vein big enough to get a line in and he has a nurse squeezing a bag of fluids for all she's worth trying to keep you alive. Doc can't tell for sure what kind of infection is is yet so he dumps three different antibiotics into you, hoping at least one will help. Unfortunately for you, one of the three bumps you into anaphylaxis and drives you deeper into shock. Maybe if it's really not your day, the bacteria is resistant to all three of the antibiotics and now your BP has been so low for so long that brain cells are dieing. Most of your organs are now permanently damaged and your kidneys have stopped working altogether. Doc being really, really good at what he does, manages to save your ass, but, now you're in need of new kidneys, you're brain damaged, your liver is cooked, your intestines are severely damaged and will never again function properly and on down the line. So, you move out of the ICU with the best option being a nursing home, dialysis, a feeding tube, an ostomy bag and a life expectancy of a few years before some other resistant bacteria finishes off the job.
The amount of time between the two outcomes is not hours. It's minutes. And, it's not very many minutes. You can quite literally be well enough to say I don't feel well, alert, functional, able to discuss whether you ought to go back to bed or call about an appointment to see Doc. Hesitate fifteen minutes and Doc may not be able to save you. I've seen it happen.
This is every bit as dangerous as Ebola, and it's something we are exposed to all the time. You can quite literally pick up a package of ground beef in a supermarket and have an E coli catastrophe in your hands. Just because we are stupid enough to allow fecal contamination and unnecessary antibiotics in our food instead of refusing it.
They do these groovy little drills into the leg bone to start on IV on people circling the drain. Medics were just going to start using them when I went out of the fire service. I kinda wanted to see how they would work, and if I wouldn't pass out when I saw an IV going into an arm, which is what I do.
As for the food supply, that's where the next terror attack is going to come from. Just about anyone can walk into a processing facility in Watsonville or Salinas and kill a few hundred or thousand people.
Originally Posted by captain seafire
I replace valve cover gaskets every 50K, if they don't need them sooner...
... we have had Ebola Zaire in this country for almost forty years without producing a single infection in a human ...
What I'm getting from all that is that you cannot cite a single case of pathological Ebola in the US prior to the two brought it. Am I understanding you correctly?
I think you're close, Hawk, but it still keeps eluding you.
What I'm getting from all that is that you cannot cite a single case of pathological Ebola in the US prior to the two brought it. Am I understanding you correctly?
Please explain to me which part of the following it is that you do not understand.
"That we have had Ebola Zaire in this country for almost forty years without producing a single infection in a human is pretty convincing evidence it is no real threat. That we handled two infected persons through an intercontinental flight and cure is even more convincing."
Are you intentionally being obtuse or is there really something in those few simple words that you do not understand?
Is there anyone else out there who does not understand this? If I am not saying it simply enough could someone please tell me what is confusing here?
Are you intentionally being obtuse or is there really something in those few simple words that you do not understand?
Oh, he's being intentionally obtuse, alright. He wants to make you "admit" that you can't do something, and he won't stop until you make the admission. He's like a small child.
