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I guess we get to look forward to "O" coming out and telling us he still has no plan and no clue what to do.... Start beheading some of the ragheads at Guantanamo Bay 
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much" Teddy Roosevelt
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Campfire Tracker
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Of course if we go after the Mosques it just enrages them further and then they go after our Capital, Washington monument, White House, Wall Street, New York, LA, Houston, etc...out come the nukes, bio, chemical stuff and most Americans won't have the resolve to deal with it, to keep up the fight, and so will easily give up.
They just ratchet it up a notch and it's hard to see where it will end.
I think we have to do something...but very difficult to know where and whose ass to kick.
Bud That's just it, you don't "go for the mosques" per se. You start by grabbing a few leaders. Do not kill them right away. Death is a blessing to them so you must publicly humiliate their leaders whenever the terrorists attack western interests. And gradually ramp up the public discomfort and humiliation to the point where, if needed, then take out that guy and move to the next leader you've grabbed. You make it clear that the mosques are in the force continuum. If taking out their leadership in a humiliating fashion and not allowing them to have a martyred death isn't enough to get the animals under control, then make it very clear that we will destroy one of the 3 holiest mosques if anything else escalates and move right down the line. I agree no one in leadership has the stomach to handle any of this. But I disagree that these mosques should be taken off the table because of what retribution might occur. Reality is, they are working on striking all the things you mentioned originally. It is puerile to think that we can't attack what is most sacred to those that are sworn to not only defeat us, but kill us all simply because we are better than that. Malarkey! O-man said it himself, "they bring a knife, you bring a gun."
Montana MOFO
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I recommend that Hulagu the Mongol and his difference of opinion with the Ishmailis(assassins) be studied. THAT will be our only real recourse.
Be afraid,be VERY VERY afraid ad triarios redisse My Buddy eh76 speaks authentic Frontier Gibberish! ![[Linked Image]](http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y222/EvilTwinMar/Sabretooth-1.jpg)
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
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The "caring" part is obvious and mutual. Aside from the usual suspects, virtually everyone was in agreement based on the intel at hand from multiple sources, the WMDs were an issue. There was no reason, fiscal or otherwise to "create a narrative" justifying a war with no end game or benefits. The WMD issue was the factor and not the threat on his father. He had the overwhelming support of the Congress and the public. Did they screw it up? absolutely, but your premise the SOLE reason for Iraq was a vendetta, my original posit stands. And, yet, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. The Saudis, however, did. No they didn't, Saudi NATIONALS did.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 23,367
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
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I'm tired of the blame Bush game.
Afghanistan - They harbored bin Ladin. If they had turned him over, the Taliban would still be running all of their show unmolested. They made their choice.
Iraq - If Saddam had complied with the UN, he'd still be alive and in power. He bet his life on the notion the US would not invade. He lost.
Everyone in the world figured that once Saddam was gone, the Iraqi people would rejoice, form a true democracy, and the world would be better. People over estimated the Muslims once again. The only stability seen in the Arab world has been through the brutal rule of dictators and/or the military. They are unable to function any other way. They are either at your throat or at your feet. Brutal domination or submission, that is their culture.
"The Democrat Party looks like Titanic survivors. Partying and celebrating one moment, and huddled in lifeboats freezing the next". Hatari 2017
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." Han Solo
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Joined: Jul 2011
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
The "caring" part is obvious and mutual. Aside from the usual suspects, virtually everyone was in agreement based on the intel at hand from multiple sources, the WMDs were an issue. There was no reason, fiscal or otherwise to "create a narrative" justifying a war with no end game or benefits. The WMD issue was the factor and not the threat on his father. He had the overwhelming support of the Congress and the public. Did they screw it up? absolutely, but your premise the SOLE reason for Iraq was a vendetta, my original posit stands. And, yet, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. The Saudis, however, did. No they didn't, Saudi NATIONALS did. OBL was a Saudi prince. His funding came, primarily, from very wealthy Saudis. His organization was largely run by Saudis. Iraq and Iraqis had little to nothing to do with OBL and AQ.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 46,965
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 46,965 |
The greater risk is what happens when we do nothing and there is no price to pay for murdering Americans. Like Benghazi.
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
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I'm tired of the blame Bush game.
Afghanistan - They harbored bin Ladin. If they had turned him over, the Taliban would still be running all of their show unmolested. They made their choice.
Iraq - If Saddam had complied with the UN, he'd still be alive and in power. He bet his life on the notion the US would not invade. He lost.
Everyone in the world figured that once Saddam was gone, the Iraqi people would rejoice, form a true democracy, and the world would be better. People over estimated the Muslims once again. The only stability seen in the Arab world has been through the brutal rule of dictators and/or the military. They are unable to function any other way. They are either at your throat or at your feet. Brutal domination or submission, that is their culture. I blamed both Bush presidencies, Clinton, Obama, and even Reagan. W picked a fight with a country that had nothing to do with 9/11. It was a separate fight and a separate issue. He attacked AQ in Afghanistan, but did nothing to root out the financial backers of AQ in the KSA, Yemen, UAE, and Dubai.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Joined: Jul 2011
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
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The greater risk is what happens when we do nothing and there is no price to pay for murdering Americans. Like Benghazi. Or the USS Cole, or the Kenyan embassy, or others.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Joined: Jul 2004
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 46,965 |
The only stability seen in the Arab world has been through the brutal rule of dictators and/or the military. They are unable to function any other way. They are either at your throat or at your feet. Brutal domination or submission, that is their culture. Well said, and all anyone needs to understand about islam.
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261 |
KFWA, the middle east has NEVER in all history been "stable". From Ashurbanipal and Sennacherib to today it has been horror after horror. We have been at war with some nitwit over there since the Barbary Pirates. Islam has been the worst single aggravating factor there has ever been. The warof annihilation and survival has already begun, the question is "does the West have what it takes to win?" Stopping the "multi-culturalism" crap would be a start. To win we need to be more merciless and remorseless than they ever dreamed of being. we're not going to do that so what's the solution? This is guerilla warfare where the farmer waving at you when you pass shoots you in the back. There is no unity or uniform, no central organization, no code or value system we can adhere to in facing these people. They create reasons to declare jihad, twist their bible and religion to suit their purpose - When facing a superior force, they'll scatter into the wind only to re-emerge with another name, another location, another set of leadership, another cause to motivate their followers down the road. You've hit the nail squarely on the head. There is no state, there is no government. These groups are amorphous, there is no solid state. Fighting an amorphous state is not possible for a modern state.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Joined: Jan 2010
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2010
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The "caring" part is obvious and mutual. Aside from the usual suspects, virtually everyone was in agreement based on the intel at hand from multiple sources, the WMDs were an issue. There was no reason, fiscal or otherwise to "create a narrative" justifying a war with no end game or benefits. The WMD issue was the factor and not the threat on his father. He had the overwhelming support of the Congress and the public. Did they screw it up? absolutely, but your premise the SOLE reason for Iraq was a vendetta, my original posit stands. why did he have overwhelming support from Congress and the public? Because the narrative created saying they had WMDs. Did they create the narrative or did he buy into the false information being presented to him? Paul Wolfowitz and Karl Rove were pushing for the invasion of Iraq before 9/11.
Last edited by KFWA; 09/03/14.
have you paid your dues, can you moan the blues, can you bend them guitar strings
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Joined: Jul 2011
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
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The "caring" part is obvious and mutual. Aside from the usual suspects, virtually everyone was in agreement based on the intel at hand from multiple sources, the WMDs were an issue. There was no reason, fiscal or otherwise to "create a narrative" justifying a war with no end game or benefits. The WMD issue was the factor and not the threat on his father. He had the overwhelming support of the Congress and the public. Did they screw it up? absolutely, but your premise the SOLE reason for Iraq was a vendetta, my original posit stands. why did he have overwhelming support from Congress and the public? Because the narrative created saying they had WMDs. Actually, the overwhelming support was because the people and Congress were still reeling from 9/11 and the support was to root out and destroy terrorists. THAT should have been the sole objective. Iraq had nothing to do with that.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 18,994
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 18,994 |
It should be noted:
"Most Muslims (one billion) live in Asia, predominately in south and southeast Asia. More than 300 million Muslims live in Sub-Saharan Africa as well.
The four largest Muslim populations are in Indonesia, Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh, each home to more than 100 million Muslims.�
Last edited by BOWSINGER; 09/03/14.
Leo of the Land of Dyr
NRA FOR LIFE
I MISS SARAH
“In Trump We Trust.” Right????
SOMEBODY please tell TRH that Netanyahu NEVER said "Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away."
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Indonesia is no peaceful paradise. Ditto Pakistan. Bangladesh is too damned poor and wracked with disease and disaster to do much. India - well...
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 23,537
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 23,537 |
KFWA, the middle east has NEVER in all history been "stable". From Ashurbanipal and Sennacherib to today it has been horror after horror. We have been at war with some nitwit over there since the Barbary Pirates. Islam has been the worst single aggravating factor there has ever been. The warof annihilation and survival has already begun, the question is "does the West have what it takes to win?" Stopping the "multi-culturalism" crap would be a start. To win we need to be more merciless and remorseless than they ever dreamed of being. we're not going to do that so what's the solution? This is guerilla warfare where the farmer waving at you when you pass shoots you in the back. There is no unity or uniform, no central organization, no code or value system we can adhere to in facing these people. They create reasons to declare jihad, twist their bible and religion to suit their purpose - When facing a superior force, they'll scatter into the wind only to re-emerge with another name, another location, another set of leadership, another cause to motivate their followers down the road. You've hit the nail squarely on the head. There is no state, there is no government. These groups are amorphous, there is no solid state. Fighting an amorphous state is not possible for a modern state. its quicksand We crippled Al Qaeda - targeted their leadership - the life expectancy of the 3rd man out in the field in charge was about 2 weeks and another group now, more vicious, better organized, better funded has risen up to take their place. Once we get stuck in that quagmire, another hotspot in the world will pop up. We aren't going to win this "war" fighting skirmishes with factions.
have you paid your dues, can you moan the blues, can you bend them guitar strings
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Joined: Jan 2010
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 23,537 |
The "caring" part is obvious and mutual. Aside from the usual suspects, virtually everyone was in agreement based on the intel at hand from multiple sources, the WMDs were an issue. There was no reason, fiscal or otherwise to "create a narrative" justifying a war with no end game or benefits. The WMD issue was the factor and not the threat on his father. He had the overwhelming support of the Congress and the public. Did they screw it up? absolutely, but your premise the SOLE reason for Iraq was a vendetta, my original posit stands. why did he have overwhelming support from Congress and the public? Because the narrative created saying they had WMDs. Actually, the overwhelming support was because the people and Congress were still reeling from 9/11 and the support was to root out and destroy terrorists. THAT should have been the sole objective. Iraq had nothing to do with that. true, but he used that to his advantage to sell America on going into Iraq - and he still needed the WMD story to push us over on it.
have you paid your dues, can you moan the blues, can you bend them guitar strings
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,370
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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The "caring" part is obvious and mutual. Aside from the usual suspects, virtually everyone was in agreement based on the intel at hand from multiple sources, the WMDs were an issue. There was no reason, fiscal or otherwise to "create a narrative" justifying a war with no end game or benefits. The WMD issue was the factor and not the threat on his father. He had the overwhelming support of the Congress and the public. Did they screw it up? absolutely, but your premise the SOLE reason for Iraq was a vendetta, my original posit stands. why did he have overwhelming support from Congress and the public? Because the narrative created saying they had WMDs. Did they create the narrative or did he buy into the false information being presented to him? Paul Wolfowitz and Karl Rover were pushing for the invasion of Iraq before 9/11. Then why didn't Saddam allow the U.N. inspections? Just because we didn't find any WMD doesn't mean they didn't/don't exist...he did use them on the Kurds.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261 |
invading Iraq on a personal vendetta didn't help.
We had the opportunity after 9/11 to address this problem head on with the world's backing and we squandered it because Dubya wanted to one up his daddy.
More importantly we had an united America - Americans were lining up at the recruiting centers to fight this threat against America - and our government wasted it. Right on again! If I had been president bombs would have fallen on Mecca followed by Medina a few days later if necessary. When I watched the Twin Towers go down I said crap to my wife the sleeping dragon has just been awaken. I was expecting Bush to go before Congress asking for a declaration of war. Heck, even Gaddafi, the Russians, and others were quick to say we are sorry and please don't bomb and kill us. The dragon blew it by not declaring war, naming countries, kicking ass and taking names. Instead the dragon rolled over and went back to sleep.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261 |
"personal vendetta" what bullshit. I am in complete agreement we went into Iraq and indeed after 9/11 piecemal and not with the 'Total war' mindset of WWII. In my opinion what Bush should have done and at the time he had the backing of the entire political spectrum (save for a few kooks):
1. Formally declare war on the floor of the combined Houses
2. Put the country on a war footing, raise the possibility of a draft, war bonds, the works.
3. Gone into Iraq with the correct number of troops for an inavsing/occuping force.
4. Punish mercilessly any nation state supporting same.
And yes before anyone starts it, the intelligence was WRONG. Wont' be the first or last time, but to suggest the war as a personal vendetta is well, stupid. when a president says "he tried to kill my father" then yea, I'd say its a personal vendetta. I don't really care whether you think its bullshit or not - Bush and company ignored the voices telling him he was wrong, he squandered valuable US resources and goodwill on his white whale Iraq. Matter of fact they retaliated on the folks that told the world they were wrong. Osama wasn't in Iraq. Al Qaeda wasn't in Iraq (until we destabilized the country) - so just why in the hell were we going into Iraq after 9/11? Bush and company created a narrative to justify going into Iraq with 9/11 giving them the ability to do so. And to add further insult to all of this - a country that had no...zero...terrorism on 9/12/2001 is ground zero for the biggest terrorism threat to us on the planet now. Ron Paul's blow back that everybody laugh at.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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