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And never will..How many elephant and Cape Buff have you taken with your handguns?

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Gerard
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posted Sep 2, 2:39 AM Hide Post
I have heard this argument for years as well. The bottom line is that 'energy transfer' is a myth in the sense of bullet penetration. You cannot kill anything with the energy that a bullet carries with it. Two holes, entrance and exit, bleed more and ventilate the cavity penetrated better than one hole. Animals are killed by an effective cavity volume and that cavity volume must be in the right place. A major organ or central nervous system must be disrupted sufficiently so that life is not sustained.

There is the additional fact that, a bullet/cartridge combination that cannot shoot through on a broadside shot, cannot be used for a straight going away. If a bullet/cartridge will shoot the length of an animal, it will shoot through on a broadside shot.

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Posts: 2425 | Location: Michigan - USA, Port Elizabeth - South Africa | Registered: 12 August 2002
Saeed
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posted Sep 2, 3:01 AM Hide Post
As Gerard has mentioned, energy means nothing.

It is the destruction of vital organs that kills an animal.

I will take penetration over expansion anytime - given a choice.

But, with today's mono metal hollow point bullet, one gets the best of both worlds.

From an exit hole and blood trail point, I have seen instances where there are two holes, an entrance and an exit, but hardly any blood trail.

All the bleeding has happened inside the animal.

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michael458
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posted Sep 2, 6:01 AM Hide Post
I concur 100% with Gerard and Saeed................

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Does it only count if I have taken enough or does those many taken by others count?

Either way. But while you're at it, might as well post all taken with a bow as well. I wonder why the African bush isn't crawling with PHs toting hand guns and 45/70s. To say they are "just as good" as any of the established (often times by law) calibers for dangerous game is not something I will agree with and BTW, I've posted a few pictures of dead buffalo with a 303 I've seen on a few sites.

And I forgot to add just for the discussion, is your contention that a 45/70 with a good bullet and 450NE (with the same bullet) on a buffalo there is no difference, so anybody with anything bigger than one (or a 300 Win Mag for that matter) is an is an idiot when they could be carrying a smaller round? Given identical shot placement of course.

Well Rattler has posted several (as in a [bleep]) of examples countering your opinion that he's only read about and you discounted his, so do those rules apply ?

Jorge you have totally misconstrued what I have said, I enough is enough and that is a fact.

Well if that is your perception, I tuly do apologize, but I did ask when I edited my post.

I guess by your reasoning Phil Shoemaker must be an idiot because he has posted numerous times that the 30-06 is perfectly adequate for big bears. In fact he even still uses it himself at times still.

I noted the following testing SOLIDS in regards to velocity.

Through wet newsprint only, the difference in penetration was less than I expected. Higher velocity was deeper but not much.

If I placed a series of boards and newsprint near the entrance of the test bed the difference was a little more pronounced but not by much.

If I placed the boards further back in the test bed and slowed the bullet down through the media the difference in penetration was much greater. At some point the lower velocity bullet did not have momentum to "punch" through the wood, were the bullet with the higher initial velocity easily penetrated through everything.

It is hard to relate newsprint and wood to flesh and bone. It provides a good consistent medium to test. However, at some point velocity does matter especially in big heavy boned animals such as buffalo and elephant especially on a raking shot.

RIP on AR noted the same findings, his description was a little more technical.

"A thought about boards (linear function resistance, LFR) mixed in with waterbuckets, wetpack, or SIM-TEST (exponential function resistance, EFR) as regards to response to velocity of the penetrating bullet and loss of resolving power of the test medium: LFR on the entrance end of the SimBA (simulated buffalo apparatus) contrbutes little to stopping the bullet, relative to its effectiveness in halting the bullet in the terminal/low velocity end of the SimBA. EFR provides much more resistance on the high velocity end, and less on the terminal end, thus allowing better resolution of difference in penetration, rather than having the LFR stop two close competitors at the same apparent distance, "hitting the wall.""

Not too many moons ago Ross Seyfried kill a Cape Buffalo with the 450 Wesley Richards express I believe a 480 grain hard cast at about 1400 FPS bullet exited. One shot kill, certainly seems to prove it was adequate.

I said previously that JD Jones killed a bunch of buffalo proving out his .375 JDJ. He tried to talk me into going with him and Mark Hampton to northern Australia to cull water buffalo and banteng in the thick, nasty stuff, but that was not for me. I don't remember what the final tally was for that trip, but he proved that in his hands he could dispatch buffalo quiet well. He took Cape buffalo and elephant on another trip to Zim, I believe it was.

Just because JD Jones could do it and did not suffer any dire consequences doesn't make it a wise endeavor. JD practiced a lot, and was on a mission to prove and publicize his hardware.

Karamojo Bell executed over a thousand elephant, a majority of them with a 7 X 57 or .303 Lee Enfield. He was a crack shot, a super expert hunter, and had open conditions to pick and choose his shot.

Just because they did their thing, doesn't make it smart for Joe Schmow to emulate those feats of daring.

So does it count only if you do it? Counts more in my book IF you analyze and critique the results honestly. In my analysis I come up with DG handgunning for JD is fine, for Hatari and other novices it's dumb.

This is how you will know. After you've taken enough buffalo to lose your intitial fear of them, say 4 or 5, with a PH and a "recommended" caliber, pick your round and gun of choice and go hunting bachelor bulls in the think bush without your PH or have your PH leave his rifle in the vehicle. At that point, the safety of the group is all on you. Do you feel adequately armed?

I've had enough hunt with a couple of PH's that they would let me do the final stalk on unsuspecting bulls without them in my hip pocket, but carefully observing from a good vantage point near by (armed). It is a completely different emotion when you are "alone". I felt more secure with a double rifle in in a Nitro Express chambering my hands.

I never mentioned bears (or Phil) but maybe he could grace us with his presence and comment, but it seems I recollect him carrying bigger guns and the central question is "what gun/caliber does he prefer as a stopper?

So did Selous! still does that mean it's on the same level as it's smokeless counterpart the 450NE 3 1/4"? not hardly.

To illustrate the difference Whitworth shot a hog with his 416 Remington with a 300 grain TSX at 2900 FPS, the amount of damage was far greater than any of his or my handgun kills. The amazing part and to illustrate my point he ran farther than any that either of us has had ever with a handgun and left absolutely no blood trail despite the massive exit.

True but it is also obvious that it was adequate.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FKI1xmtf5Ck

and as i keep pointing out adiquate only is until it isnt....im guessing if you were out in the bush by yourself you wouldnt be packing a 45-70 or handgun.....what you do with backup is a hell of alot different than by yourself.....which is why Shoemaker says a 30-06 is perfectly fine for a HUNTER in his camp, when it comes time to sort out a bear in the alder he seems to be carrying a 458 Win or 505 Gibbs or similar....at those times he sure doesnt seem to think the 30-06 is perfectly adequate and thats the lil fact that keeps going over your head....i would go hunting for griz with Phil packing a 30-06, but like Phil, if i was in his shoes ild be packing something more massive as back up....

please tell me what PH's are using "just adequate" ....for phugs sake ive never said any of these wont kill a critter, ive never even said i wouldnt use them, i only said "just adequate" doesnt work when you leave the hunter role and step into the PH role where peoples lives rely on the stopping power of your rifle...

Then the various 500's aren't adequate by your standards since they have failed to stop charges as well.

"adequate" is not an adjective I would employ when going in my Rules Of Engagement... But to illustrate I have at least some credibility in the subject at hand, here are two comparably sized animals (weight-sise anyway). This one I shot with a 45-100 and a 480gr bullet @ 1300 fps, DRT, all four legs up in the air when I came of recoil:






And this one with a 416 Rigby 400gr Aframe @2400 fps , first shot broke shoulder and took out his heart, only nobody told the buffalo so I gave him two more:




Clearly both were "adequate", now would I use the 110 on a Cape Buffalo? yep, it's adequate, but for follow up in close? NFW.. And there is the crux of the discussion, "adequate" and more than adequate...

Watch the Mark Sullivan videos where he is stopping charges with a 600 nitro he drops them like a lead weight until he misses the brain and they continue the charge. Body shot have little effect on wounded buffalo. He fires the second barrel and connects with the brain and yells "ah [bleep]" and barely gets out of the way as the buffalo crashes past.