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Campfire 'Bwana
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Jorge you have plenty of credibility with me, we just have different experiences is all. The discussion as I took it is adequate for the open post to use to hunt with.
Last edited by jwp475; 09/10/14.
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We are back to the "kill vs. stop" debate. Sooner or later somebody is going to say "shot placement is everything," and it is.
Off hand, I can say I've killed either Cape buffalo or NW Red buffalo with an 8mm Magnum (wildcat), .338 WM, 9.3 JDJ, 9.3 X 62, .450/400 NE, .45 Win Mag and .450 No. 2 NE. The lesser powered of the cartridges all resulted in one shot kills.
Further examination reveals that shot placement was the critical factor in the lesser powered cartridge's success. 8mm Mag - brain shot. 9.3 JDJ - high shoulder and .45 MW the same. The 8mm Mag used a 200 grain Nosler Partition, the 9.3 JDJ was an original Barnes X, and the .45 WM was a custom Barnes monolithic solid.
I could draw any number of conclusions from this sample:
- 8mm Mag with soft points is good enough for buffalo
- 9.3 JDJ out of an SSK handgun is a great buffalo killer
- the .45 Win Mag out of a carbine will take anything on Earth
- softpoints are the best
- expanding monoliths are the best
- solids are the only way to go
Since I've used multiple shots on buff with the 9.3 X 62, and the .450/400 I could deduce:
- the 9.3 is not sufficient to kill buffalo
- the .450/400 is marginal for buffalo
- anything lighter than the .450 No.2 is inadequate for buffalo.
- solids are NOT the way to go
- expanding bullets are the best
- expanding bullets suck on DG
None of these by themselves are accurate or tell the whole story. There is a reason that Game Departments have developed minimum standards for hunting dangerous game. Cartridges below the standard caused too many problems. you can argue that bullets are better these days and you can try to argue that these standards are outdated, but you won't get many experienced PH's to jump on your side.
The 7.62 X 39 has probably killed more buffalo in the past 40 years than all other calibers combined. AK-47 armed troops and thugs cleared out large areas of Moz and Angola poaching to feed themselves. Just because it worked in their hands doesn't make it a sound round to recommend.
"The Democrat Party looks like Titanic survivors. Partying and celebrating one moment, and huddled in lifeboats freezing the next". Hatari 2017
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." Han Solo
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[quote=jwp475][quote=jorgeI][quote=jwp475]
Clearly both were "adequate", now would I use the 110 on a Cape Buffalo? yep, it's adequate, but for follow up in close? NFW.. And there is the crux of the discussion, "adequate" and more than adequate... Jorge, I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that the .45/100 was adequate, yet not adequate for stopping work. By your own admission, the .45/100 put that bull bison down like a bolt of lightning. So why isn't it "more than adequate?" Not trying to be combative, but without a CNS shot, a determined animal is not likely to break off a charge/attack. A CNS shot requires enough penetration to kill the CNS. Anything less than that could be deemed inadequate, but surely, if the big bullet can get there and then some, it is adequate, is it not?
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Whiworth: The Bison took a CNS shot and was unalerted, the Cape did not and was alerted after the first shot (broken shoulder) so there's that. A charging buffalo or elephant is an entire proposition (and Hatari has I think eloquently address this) and in my opinion a 110 is WOEFULLY inadequate (in a charge, not to mention the single shot) and at 1300 fps, it just does't carry the freight. There are no guarantees ANY NE cartridge is 100% effective, but in my view I want all the punch I can get and there's just no comparison when the two calibers are compared.
Last edited by jorgeI; 09/10/14.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Ganyana
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posted May 6, 2:31 AM Hide Post
Another example of why never to use a solid for the first shot on buff- On one of the culls a local farmer was using a 416 Rigby - with kynock ammo. When the dust settled, the farmers went home to a G&T and the government types got to do the follow ups of wounded animals that had escaped. I followed up a big bull, which was leaving only scatered faint blood spoor.
4 hrs later I faced a charge in thick scrub and only dropped the bull a few meters from me. I cut it open to find out what had gone wrong since there was a hole dead centre in the chest, and I couldn't belive that the buff had gone so far. The heart and lungs were undamaged. The bullet had slipped between them, pushing blood vessels etc asside. Even the bruising was very moderate. I recovered the bullet in the small intestines. A soft would have ripped open a channel in both lungs and may well have cut the aurta that the solid brushed asside.
Solids on Buff? For a free state heart shot by the PH, perhaps. I don't. I back my clients with a soft (althogh these days with the double I usually load one of each). For a client, or a citizen hunter? Never. Even an indiferent soft beats a great solid.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Then the various 500's aren't adequate by your standards since they have failed to stop charges as well.
but their success rate is higher than the lighter stuff.....which is why a hell of alot of PH's that start with the 375H&H or 458 Win Mag move to heaier guns as they gain experience not lighter.....the number of PH's that use a 375H&H for their stopper against buff is aweful damn small compared to those that use more.....by your thinking the opposite should be true if there was merit to your way of thinking....
A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books
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Campfire 'Bwana
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N E 450 No2
one of us
posted May 6, 1:29 AM Hide Post
I have killed a few cape buff.
The only one that was a one shot kill was with my 9,3x74R with a 286gr Woodleigh Soft.
I did have a 286 Woodleigh Solid in the left bbl, but I was only able to get off the one shot.
The buff was down and dead in less than 40 yards.
I do consider the 9,3's, and the 375 H&H to be a little light for buff, but well handled they work great.
Badly handled even a 600 Nitro will get you some drama.
If I was hunting buff with a 9,3x62 bolt rifle I would have my Soft of choice in the chamber, and back it up with Solids in the Magazine.
I have used the 286gr Woodleigh Softs and Solids in my 9,3x74R on game from turkeys and caracel to giraffe, buff and elephant, with excellent results.
I see no reason why the 300gr Swift would not be a great Soft for the 9,3x62 bolt rifle.
DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Ganyana
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posted May 6, 2:01 AM Hide Post
Always a soft! There is never a reason to initiate a buffalo hunt with a solid. I used a 9,3x62 on most of the buffalo erradication culls in Western Zimbabwe. A 9,3 solid makes a very small hole in a buffs heart and it can go a darn long way with such a hole. A flat nosed solid like a barnes banded will help, but... Buff heart shot with a Norma or Kynock solid would sometimes go 1-2 km. Hit through the lungs is even worse. I followed up a buff that had taken a .375 solid through both lungs - and it was full of fight 12 hrs later when we caught up with it.
For the culls I quickly settled on Norma soft points, or even RWS TUG's. They got the job done just fine. Today I use Ken Stuarts 286grn flat nosed soft points - but the swift A frame is a very good bullet. Much better than I had on the culls!
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire 'Bwana
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juanpozzi one of us posted Nov 7, 9:24 PM Hide Post Im a good friend of ganyana and lately we have been hunting together ,with his trusty 9.3x62 mauser ,i can said that he has more experience on cape buffalo than any other living ph so if he states that the 9.3x62 is adecuate please trust him .juan www.huntinginargentina.com.arDRSS-DSC-SCI NRA IDPA IPSC-FAT -argentine shooting federation cred number2-
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Saeed Administrator posted Nov 6, 11:54 PM Hide Post I have not read the article, and certainly do not have Ganyana's experience with buffalo. However, having hunted buffalo for many years, and seen many buffalo shot by others. Buffalo are NOT bullet proof! The FIRST shot is most important, and where it is placed, not the size of the bullet or the energy level it generates. A well placed 308 Winchester bullet is much better than a magazine full of 577 T.Rex marginally placed. www.accuratereloading.com
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire 'Bwana
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465H&H
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posted Nov 18, 12:03 PM Hide Post
Hitting the charging buff in the right place with with a good bullet is the key to stopping a charge. Big calibers and bullets only marginally help your case if you don't hit the right place. Two weeks ago while I was at Charissa chaseing tuskless eles, a PH named Stockhill at Sengwa Researcsh Area next door failed to place two big bullets from his 500 double in the right place on a charging cow buff and ended up in the hospital for his efforts. Luckily, he was only very badly bruised as the cow didn't gore him but only pounded him.
465H&H
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire 'Bwana
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This post by Ganyana sums up my position quite well.
Ganyana
one of us
posted Dec 2, 12:28 AM Hide Post
As for real world experience - personal tally so far with my 7.62 Nato - over 100 buffalo, and two elephant. With a 9,3x62 41 one shot kills on buff and six elephant. One wounded elephant dropped cleanly with my 7x57.
Failures on elephant 2- one with a .458 and one with a .458 Lott. (Bullet failure and compressed powder trouble - animals finished off with something smaller.)
Used a .375 for buff for a short while with every satisfaction.
That said, a .505 gibbs flattens a buffalo so much more spectacularly than a .375 you have to see it to appreciate it.
On our elephant culls (which I attended as the research officer) a .470 .500NE, or even a .458 Lott putts an elephant down so much more quickly than even a regular .458. In thick cover, where you may easily only be able to see for a shot at a range of a couple of paces, the margin of safety offered by a big bore is very significant.
Also, the culling officers started with a heavy to ensure that thelead cows went down for sure and then swithched to a .30 cal for the rest. Out of 16000 elephant, Clem recons he has shot 7-800 with a big bore and the rest with a .30-06 or a 7.62x54R, but if you need an animal down for sure, use a big bore.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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"The Democrat Party looks like Titanic survivors. Partying and celebrating one moment, and huddled in lifeboats freezing the next". Hatari 2017
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." Han Solo
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John,
Basically your are spamming the board with comments from another forum that fit your agenda. I can post quotes galore from people I respect more than the ones you listed with different opinions.
The original question was will it work. The answer is yes.
I can assure you of one thing as long as I am paying for my own safaris I will carry what I think is best. And as long as somebody ask a question I will answer it based on MY experience.
I have never commented on what it takes to kill a brown bear in Alaska because I have never hunted one.
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This post by Ganyana sums up my position quite well.
Ganyana
one of us
posted Dec 2, 12:28 AM Hide Post
As for real world experience - personal tally so far with my 7.62 Nato - over 100 buffalo, and two elephant. With a 9,3x62 41 one shot kills on buff and six elephant. One wounded elephant dropped cleanly with my 7x57.
Failures on elephant 2- one with a .458 and one with a .458 Lott. (Bullet failure and compressed powder trouble - animals finished off with something smaller.)
Used a .375 for buff for a short while with every satisfaction.
That said, a .505 gibbs flattens a buffalo so much more spectacularly than a .375 you have to see it to appreciate it.
On our elephant culls (which I attended as the research officer) a .470 .500NE, or even a .458 Lott putts an elephant down so much more quickly than even a regular .458. In thick cover, where you may easily only be able to see for a shot at a range of a couple of paces, the margin of safety offered by a big bore is very significant.
Also, the culling officers started with a heavy to ensure that thelead cows went down for sure and then swithched to a .30 cal for the rest. Out of 16000 elephant, Clem recons he has shot 7-800 with a big bore and the rest with a .30-06 or a 7.62x54R, but if you need an animal down for sure, use a big bore.
You may want to read the whole quote. "On our elephant culls (which I attended as the research officer) a .470 .500NE, or even a .458 Lott putts an elephant down so much more quickly than even a regular .458." I shudder to think what he thinks about a 45-70 if the Lott is that much better than the 458 Win. "In thick cover, where you may easily only be able to see for a shot at a range of a couple of paces, the margin of safety offered by a big bore is very significant."This is what several of us have been saying all along. "but if you need an animal down for sure, use a big bore."
Really?? That is what we have been saying. And I can assure you he is not referring to a 45-70 as a big bore.
Last edited by Mike70560; 09/10/14.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I did read all and I do not disagree with any of it. He has pretty of experience to have a valid point of view. My contention this entire thread is that the 470 Turnbull will. You will also notice that some failures that he points out were with traditional big bore and the failure were because of missed vital and poor bullets, which is what I have said repeatedly.
Last edited by jwp475; 09/10/14.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Completely agree on NOT using solids on buff.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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The discussion or argument of what is adequate or the "best" has raged for years, it even predates the internet, Nyschens, Taylor, Bell, Selby, Sutherland all had different viewpoints on what was best.
Most, but not all, PH's are not gun or bullet enthusiasts. They use what works. I have hunted Tanzania, Mozambique, and Zimbabwe, all with Zim PHs, all dangerous game hunts. I have only seen one 375 H&H in camp for a PH. The remaining ones carried mostly 458 Wins or Lotts, 470 and 500 Doubles, the odd 416 Rigby, and one had a 505 Gibbs in a George Gibbs rifle. Ammo ranged from new Federal and Hornady to Kynochs that appeared to be older than me. I can assure you there is not a PH that I ever met that would carry a 45-70 rifle or a pistol on the job. Bigger will work better, you still have to the animal correctly, but there is no substitution for horsepower or reliability on large dangerous game.
375 or 9.3 is the minimum dangerous game caliber in most countries with varying requirements for energy, mostly around 4000 ft. lbs. I guess exceptions are made for pistols. Client rifles in camp tend to be 375-416-458s or doubles 470 or 500s.
Client and PH responsibilities are different. I have always taken the view when choosing a firearm for a DG hunt that I would be doing the hunt on my own with no backup. After being charged by elephants in close cover and having been around some very upset buffalo I can assure you I would not carry a 45-70. Buffalo are tough if not hit correctly on the first shot. I do not know why, but they are. Several PHs have been killed in the last couple of years following up wounded buffalo, including some very experienced ones.
Another issue to keep in mind is bringing a hot rod round from 50 degree weather in Montana to 105 degree weather in Zimbabwe could be problematic. I like the extra case capacity and low pressures of the Nitro rounds.
I am a bullet whore and do love the new designs from North fork and CEB. The add another level of performance to any round.
My opinion on this subject differs from people I respect. At the end of the day we all kill or game and hopefully enjoy doing it. A lot of this is mental masturbation.
I need to go reload and practice some shooting. There is an elephant and buffalo that need killing in the near future. I was kind of waiting for someone to bring up the 9.3x62 and 375 H&H. I am having trouble reconciling the supposed superiority of these cartridges over a hot loaded 45-70. You would be lucky to crack 2400 fps with a 286 gr. bullet with the 9.3, yet guys are breaking 2400 with a 300 gr. in a 45-70. Sectional density of the smaller bore of course is better. But the bigger bore with a good metplat will cut a bigger hole. With the .375 and a 300 gr. bullet and at 2600 fps vs. a 45-70 pushing a 400 at 1950, the momentum is nearly identical. I think out of the 3, I would lean toward the 45-70 handloaded with a 400 gr. cast with a good flat nose. Those numbers could be improved more yet with even stronger gun. The Baikal double is interesting. But I would prefer the lever still. It would be interesting to compare the actual accumulated foot pounds, or momentum in a timed fire exercise over 3 seconds or 5 maybe with the lever action vs. a double and a bolt. Wondering if the OP considered a .50 Alaskan? I think I would like the B&M version of the cartridge just for wider variety of bullets available. And either can throw a 525 at 1850. What's wrong with that?
Profanity is a poor substitute for a proper education.
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Campfire Ranger
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I was kind of waiting for someone to bring up the 9.3x62 and 375 H&H. I am having trouble reconciling the supposed superiority of these cartridges over a hot loaded 45-70. Hundreds of thousands of dead Cape buffalo over the past 100 years can attest to the effectiveness of those two rounds. They work time and time again and they have left little to argue about. There is theory and then there is practice. I have no doubt that a hot 45-70 will do the job when the conditions are right. I leave it to you to test it out under all circumstances and report back.
"The Democrat Party looks like Titanic survivors. Partying and celebrating one moment, and huddled in lifeboats freezing the next". Hatari 2017
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." Han Solo
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I was kind of waiting for someone to bring up the 9.3x62 and 375 H&H. I am having trouble reconciling the supposed superiority of these cartridges over a hot loaded 45-70. Hundreds of thousands of dead Cape buffalo over the past 100 years can attest to the effectiveness of those two rounds. They work time and time again and they have left little to argue about. There is theory and then there is practice. I have no doubt that a hot 45-70 will do the job when the conditions are right. I leave it to you to test it out under all circumstances and report back. It works because it always worked? Well ok then, that's all I need to know I guess... Here I thought I would hear some thought provoking rumination of bullet performance. So how did people know it would work before they tried it? How are you deciding that the cartridge loaded to the same energies won't work? Or only if ideal conditions? Seams like a pretty arbitrary line to me. If there is a reason, I would like to hear why.
Profanity is a poor substitute for a proper education.
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