Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Tito or Shamrock?

Sylvia by decision-48-47 (twice) and 49-47.

Arlovski got in some nasty leg kicks in the first round,then for some reason,gave up on them afterwards.Then it became Sylvia's game basicaly,and they just stalked each other and traded jabs,with Arlovski getting the brunt of it (obviously he doesn't have a "glass jaw").He got cut up really bad which is probably why he lost-he was very bloody while Sylvia wasn't marked up too bad.

WB.

These discussions are all along the lines of the old adolescent "what would win, a lion or a brown bear?" sort of things, but they are still kind of fun. It seems to me that the UFC, at least in the upper weights, has evolved to more emphasis on striking than on the ground game. And of course, that is what the crowd wants to see. . . .men beating the [bleep] out of each other. That said, none of the current crop, including Liddell, really has much of a punch, and for the most part, their boxing skills are amateur at best. Since we seem to be a bunch of old guys, I will suggest that if you put those little gloves on a young Joe Frazier, or a young Roberto Duran, (pick your weight class, and you young guys substitute some of the superb young boxers of today) there would be dead people littering the Octagon. Palookas like Tim Silvia, thugs like Ken Shamrock, and pretty boys like Tito would wake up with broken ribs, broken face bones, and permanent brain damage, if they woke up at all. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> I would pay to watch that!!

Tito doesn't even deserve to be in the ring with the likes of Wandy. What has he done in the last 5 years?
Beat a 40 year old Shamrock
lose to Chuck and Randy
Beat Cote who is hardly elite
Beat a washed up Belfort
Beat a B level fighter,barely, in Griffin
Beat a 43 year old Shamrock

Speaking of Belfort, he has never regained his lightning in a bottle he had early in his career. He fought Wandy in 98, when Wandy was in the fight game less than two years.
Losing shows what a fighter is made of. Wandy's loss's were early in his carreer and a controversial decision against a much bigger and skilled fighter. He always comes back with a vengence. Tito just disappeared from the real competition, to this day.
Belfort also has never been able to attain what he once showed promise of. Wandy would walk through either. Not only that but often a loss to Wandy will be the most devastating a fighter has ever experienced.
It is crazy to be surprised at Royces loss. It was a mismatch from the beginning.
It also should be no surprise that BJ Penn has a win over Hughes. He took the shine off of GSP and really has a world class ground game...as opposed to Royce.
Regarding my saying Chuck will have a tougher time vs. Wandy than Randy. That is considering a Chuck being in his prime vs. a waning 40+ year old Couture. Couture at his prime would probally handle either Chuck or Wandy more times than not.

Aedes,
Ken Shamrock,probably the worst of all the "classic" UFC fighters,would absolutley rape the best boxer out there,in the octogon.Why?Because a boxer doesn't have a ground game.Put a boxer on his back and he won't know what to do.This is why Royce Gracie breezed through everyone in the earlier UFC fights.

FVA,
Tito doesn't deserve to be in the ring with Wandy?He raped him for 25 minutes and won the light heavyweight championship.Yeah,that's non-deserving.Everyone seems to conveinently forget that fight.Have you seen it?Ole Wandy needs to brush up on his American wrestling skills,because whatever Brazilian ju-jitsu he had didn't work worth a tinkers damn in that fight.

As for Tito's competition in the last year or two-that's due to his crappy releationship with the powers that be.As for his losses to Randy and Chuck?No suprise there.I was shocked that Forrest gave him a serious run for his money,but then again Tito had a hurt leg (supposedly),and Forrest is one tough cookie.

I'm not a big Tito fan-I think he's a pompous ass and a pretty boy (at least he thinks he is),but I admire him as a fighter,and he definetly worked over Wandy in their fight.

I admire Wandy as a fighter,but he gets away with a lot of techniques that don't fly here,and most of his highlight reel worthy material has been against garbage can type fighters,or worse yet,totaly inadequete fighters (like that genius who decided to take off his gi mid-fight).

Chuck ain't dumb-he's learned from his very,very few losses,and he's got a team of guys as we speak going over every fight Wandy's ever been in,analizing it for weaknesses.Don't believe it?That's how Chuck said he knew Randy would make that funky move in their last fight-from watching his old fight tapes.Obviously it worked.

And I'll bet you a dollar Chuck won't walk out there with his hands down around his chest,as usual...........

WB.

PS-when Couture was 35-39,I'd have put him up against anyone that was his same size.The only times he lost were when he was up against guys who were considerably larger than he was.He's also got that dang thing with his eyes.I bet getting that elbow in the eye from Ricco Rodriguez hurt like hell.And what happened to Ricco?Did you see him in Tito's corner?He must weight 300+ pounds now.

Thought I might get a response(grin) Notice I mentioned five years, not one or two. I can't believe you hang on that early Tito fight as showing what might be this time.
Wandy fight garbage? How many times has he beat Sakuraba?-3 Yoshida and Rampage, Twice You can add Henderson, Mezger,Minowa, and the list goes on.
As to his techniques that don't fly in the UFC by time he gets to the foot stomps, knee drops, and soccer kicks the guy is already down from fists and standing knees. It is just a matter of how fast the Ref can save the guy. As an aside he has accomplished all this by the age of 30.The man is a beast. If Chuck KO's him it won't change a thing.

Casual observations:
I take these guys at face value:
Tank: an intimidating bully, those he fought, who were afraid of him, usually lost. Those who were not intimidated usually won. IMO Tank is not tough, when he gets gassed he usually quits. For him to say Tito is not tough is laughable.

Tito: He showed he is willing to teach what he know to others in the UFC 3. He is very, very good fighter but beatable.

Shamrock: A credible fighter who is trying to hang on. Time to retire, Ken. He also showed he is basically an ass, in UFC 3.

R. Gracie: Great competitor. The game has passed him by. If many of his former opponets had a ground striking game he would have lost many times prior. His earlier opponets had no idea of the submissions R. could whip on them. His family transformed the self defense training industry worldwide.

Liddell: He is at the top of his game. The man has heavy hands to be sure.

Hughes: My current favorite due to his size, conditioning and toughness. I prefer watching the ground game.

MMA vs Boxing: Boxers fight under more rules and would be at a great disadvantage in the Octagon. MMA would be under a similar handicap when in a boxing ring. Can't really compare one against the other. I do believe boxing is a more cruel sport due to the 10 count. A boxer can carry a lesser opponet and really hurt another boxer permantly. MMA tends to stop a fight before any extended damage can occur, this aspect I like. MMA tends to be more dynamic when there is a KO.

I enjoy watching this stuff but I don't study it to any great extent.pak

Sorry, I should have been more precise. My point is that if they ever do get a MMA fighter with the punching power and related skills of a top ranked boxer such as a Joe Frazer or Roberto Duran, those little tiny gloves would be deadly. There are only a handful of world class atheletes in the UFA, (Matt Hughes comes to mind) a lot of good atheletes, but not many exceptional.

I totally agree. It was BS IMOP and a horrible display of inconsistency by the judge. Makes me not want to pay for another one after the last two I have gotten were bust.

"Nothing worse than a [bleep] decision/stoppage"


How about a "tuck" rule? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

FVA,
Unless Wandy could keep it standing and hit Tito with a barage of blows (ala Tito's fight with Chuck),it would play out much like their last fight.Neither has changed much in 6 years-Tito is still an over-glorified wrestler (no matter HOW you cut it),and Wandy is one of the most deady kick boxers in the world.Tito will go out,take him down,put him in the fence and beat on him.Tito is way bigger and way stronger than Wandy,and without a doubt has supperior ground skills-Randy Couture said Tito was the most powerful light heavyweight he's ever trained or fought with (they did both together),and Randy's trained with and fought a lot of 205 pounders.

As for who Wandy has beat?Sakuraba was a BAD match up for Wandy-great grappler (one of the best,ever),crappy stand up-he couldn't knock out Royce Gracie,and he had an hour and a half to do it for cryin out loud (and if you saw that fight,he hit Royce more than a few times,and with everything he had,so he either can't break an egg or Royce has a head full of cement-probably some of both).Wandy breezed through Sak,and it's no suprise,though I seem to remember that in one of their fights Sak got him in a bad spot and almost submitted him because Wandy wasn't taking him seriously (idiot),and Wandy barely got out it,jumped up,and knocked him right out.

As for who else Wandy has fought-I wouldn't say Guy Mezger was a worthy opponent (washed up UFC fighter).And Wandy couldn't knock out Dan Henderson?

Every time Wandy fights somebody REALLY tough-Cro Cop,Mark Hunt,Arona,he either looses or wins by split decision.

Chuck Liddel is just as tough as any of those guys,and deffinetly tougher than Mark Hunt.

And yeah,if Chuck KO's him,it won't change Wandy from being a great fighter.But it will sure shut up the several internet MMA boards of "Pride owns UFC" discussion.But of course,they'll start "Fedor could kill Tim Sylvia (or enter in who ever is heavy weight champion in Pride and UFC this week)" the next day.

WB.

Pak,
Good,interesting observations.I'll respond to them one at a time.

Tank-He's definetly a bully,as you say.And as you say,not very tough.He has though beat guys that were not affraid of him-he just demolished a couple of guys who tried to go toe to toe with him,and ended up eating one of his punches.Paul Varelans,"The Polar Bear",6'8 300 pounds,definetly did not look affraid of Tank when he went after him,and Tank ate him alive.

As for what Tank said about Tito-you must remember that Tank was working with Tito when Tito was only 18-20 years old,and only knew how to wrestle.Tank needed someone big to teach him how to wrestle,and Tito needed someone to teach him how to box.I guess Tank didn't think Tito could hit very hard,which is why he doesn't think he's tough.You also must remember that these two had a big falling out after Tito got upset that Tank got paid more for a fight in his comeback in the UFC than Tito did (when Tito was champ).Tank made fun of Tito about this,something to the extent of-"Hey champ,look who's getting paid more",and Tito got upset and made some snide remarks about Tank in the press,and it went on from there.Tank and Tito were made for each other,as far as personalities go.Tank claimed Tito got into fighting as a way to break into the movies,which isn't hard to believe.He says this is why he doesn't like Tito-he says he thinks that makes him a phony.

Tito-Good wrestler.Good coach.Wouldn't be suprised if he wears makeup.

Ken Shamrock-I've NEVER figured this guy out-what's so popular about him?A third rate fighter if I've ever seen one.The best thing he ever did in his career was dry hump Royce Gracie for 35 minutes,and give Royce a shiner,so he can say he "would have won if there were judges" (and I can say Royce would have won if it went on another half hour).I've never seen him do anything impressive in the ring.His adoptive brother Frank Shamrock,on the other hand,is probably one of the best,if not the best,fighter in the history of the UFC.Maybe Ken should have trained with his little bro a little more.

Royce Gracie-Changed MMA forever when he stepped into the octogon in UFC 1.Hell,he CREATED MMA that day.If it wasn't for Royce,no one would be doing Brazilian ju-jitsu today in MMA.I mean,who would have thought a little 170 pound Brazilian guy could sweep through guys that weighted 100 pounds more than him?Yes,the game has passed him by,but he (and his family) got the ball rolling.Hell,his brother was the president of the UFC back in the early days!We have Gracies to thank for all of this.They started the UFC to show off Royce and Gracie Ju Jitsu to the world.If it wasn't for that,we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Liddell-Tough guy.Very quiet outside of the ring,and doesn't talk much (if any) trash,which means he's all business.Very well educated,and has a crack staff researching his opponents.Seems like a nice guy,though he comes off has having the sense of humor of a refrigerator (which is probably good for someone in his profession).I guess they don't call him the "Iceman" for nothing.

Hughes:Very simmilar fighting style to Tito's-if you watch them fight back to back,nearly identical styles,exsept that Hughes can fight reliably on his feet,and Tito can't.Hughes and Tito wrestled in the ADCC in 2000 and Tito won by decision,even though if you watch the match,it appears to be a draw (went the entire alloted time plus overtime).It's no suprise to me than Hughes and Tito are good friends-they come off as having somewhat simmilar personalities.Hughes is very cocky (sometimes extremely cocky),which is why he was routinely boo'ed in many of his fights.Very strange that he has this kind of personality considering his faith (devout Christian),but maybe he needs that agressive personality to be such an agressive fighter.He's definetly completely dominating in his weight class,though he's been prone to submissions by ju-jitsu fighters (Dennis Hallman got him in an armbar in 20 seconds at UFC Japan,and of course we all remember what BJ Penn did to him),which is why I was suprised Royce lost to him.Royce didn't look like he gave a damn in that fight though-compare that fight to his fight with Sakuraba,and you'll see what I mean.

MMA vs. Boxing-How many boxers die every year?I think something like 350 have died in the USA since they started counting.Exactly one MMA fighter has died ever,and that was in an unsanctioned fight in the Ukraine.

As far as who would win,a Boxer or an MMA fighter?An MMA fighter has a chance in a boxing ring.A boxer doesn't have a chance in the octogon.Why?Put Mike Tyson on the ground and he'd get submitted in about 3 seconds.How much ju jitsu do you think Mike Tyson knows?Probably about as much as I do.I doubt if Iron Mike even knows how to wrestle.

WB.

PS-Vitor Belfort got into boxing-once.Vitor knocked the dude out silling in well under a minute,did SERIOUS damage to the guy,and was asked not to return..........so much for an MMA fighter not being able to hang with a boxer.And that was with boxing gloves on!

Random post fight thoughts...

Wow, Yves Edwards can bleed!

Stoppage of Tito vs Shamrock was entirely too early. Bummer. Will be curious to see what Ken's intentions are now. Re-match or go away quietly.

Tim vs Arlovski, both were afraid of the big punch. Bummer again. Would have liked to see either of them swing for the fence and let it all hang out.

Overall, a mediocre UFC event, IMHO. Glad I didn't see it on my dime.

At the time of Mezger's loss to Wandy he had 5 previous fights in UFC and won 4 of those including a win against a young Ortiz and his fifth fight a loss to Ortiz and very much a winning record at that time. His loss's started coming in bunches when he went to Pride. One of those loss's was to Chuck in Pride. Just stating the facts. Hardly a washed up UFC fighter.
Also looking at his record he is regarded of having more decisions going against that should of been for him than any other fighter. That is why it is a bad thing to let the judges decide and why those in the know consider him better than his record indicates. FWIW.
Henderson is considered by his peers to be one of the toughest opponents as he is always coming and in front of you. Something win/loss records do not reflect. Speaking of his win/loss record have you ever looked at it? Any kind of victory over Henderson is huge.
Arona is another top fighter in the world and an example of just what kind of competition Wandy faces on a yearly basis. There is no shame having a loss and a win via decision against Arona.
Hunt would be a bad match up for Chuck as he is a 250 pound stand up K1 kick boxer that has taken punches and kicks to the head from Mirko and Silva and has yet to shaken. I assume you are aware of Mirko's kicks and fists. Hunt's weakness is his suceptability to subbmissions, not Chuck's strength.
While Tito may be a strong LHW Wandy has fought a beaten much stronger. A 245 pound hunk of iron who is a wrestler named Fujita comes to mind. He was lucky he was so strong as he needed all of it to barely keep Wandy from locking in a arm bar when he got Wandy on the ground. Of course that only allowed for him to be beaten down unmercifully in the next round. At the post fight interview he apologized to his fans for his utter and total defeat.
The only thing you should take from Tito's victory over Wandy is that Tito at the absolute pinacle of his career could not finish a up and coming Wandy, who was only a shadow of the complete fighter he is now.
Who's Fedor? (grin)

Yeah,and two of Mezger's four wins in the UFC were alternate qualifying fights,and he never even got to fight in the "real" fights (the main event),until UFC 13,where a young Tito literaly demolished him instantly,and thought Mezger tapped.The ref didn't see it,and when Mezger realized this,he denied tapping.A doctor looked at a nasty cut on Mezger's eyebrow,the fight started again,an inexperienced Tito shot right in for another takedown,and Mezger caught him in a guiotine.

Other than his two alternate qualifing bouts,and that win over a green Tito,Mezger beat Christophe Leninger.Wow,that's an impressive UFC record right there.No wonder they've never asked him back.

Never said Chuck should fight Hunt,I said Chuck was tougher than Hunt,as in-Chuck is a better fighter.Hunt can definetly take more punishment than Chuck can.Hunt also has a head the size of a basketball.

You're siting Wandy's victory over Fujita?Oh please.Fujita got the stuffing knocked out of him by Ken Shamrock (the words "got the stuffing knocked out of him by Ken Shamrock" is almost a contradiction in itself!)for crying out loud,before Ken punched himself out and had his corner throw in the towel.Did you see Fujita's face at the end of that fight?Ken put the hurt on him,and Ken can't box worth crap.If Ken Shamrock can kick his ass,Wandy can kill him.

Silva and Fedor are supposed to fight each other in the near future,as soon as Fedor's hand is healed.Fedor will kill Silva.Silva won't be able to hurt Fedor-I'm assuming you saw Fedor fight Cro Cop.Cro Cop kicked Fedor in the head as hard as he could,and Fedor SMILED at him.

In what should be the fight of the decade,Rickson Gracie is going to fight Sakuraba.As you probably know,Rickson Gracie supposedly has a record of something like 450-0.Since no one has ever come forward claiming to have beat him,it's somewhat believeable,even though his father says "if I counted what Rickson considers a "fight",I guess I've fought a million fights."I assume he counts every street fight,every Gracie challenge,every ju-jitsu competition,ect.

I'm assuming this will be another no holds barred,unlimited time period fight,just like the Royce vs. Sakuraba fight,since Rickson is getting $3 million for this fight,which means they had to through a lot of incentives his way.

I don't think Sakuraba is going to be able to beat this Gracie though.This is supposedly the very best of all the Gracie's,and the very best of all the Brazilian ju jitsu fighters.Sakuraba's not going to be able to knock him out-he couldn't knock out Royce,and Rickson is as tough if not tougher-and none of the Gracie's tap.And I'm sure Rickson stipulated there will be no ref stopage if he's caught in a submission,due to what happened to Royler (in case you didn't see that fight-Sak had him in a kimuara,and the ref stopped it-the Gracie's took exseption due to the fact that Royler didn't tap and his arm did not break).

I'd like to see Rickson fight Matt Hughes,to get some payback for Royce.I think Rickson would do the same thing to Matt that BJ Penn did to him,and Rickson is a lot bigger and a lot stronger than BJ.Rickson is a LOT more agressive than Royce,which is what you need when fighting Matt Hughes.Royce was just being too passive in that fight.He should have just let it all hang out,like in the Sakuraba fight.Probably would have got his ass kicked even worse,but he would have at least got his licks in.

WB.

Well,it looks like we're going to get Tito vs. Forrest 2-
http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=2347&zoneid=13

If Tito wants it,it's going to happen.Forrest says he'll fight anyone the UFC wants him to,at any time,so it's going to happen.

I hate to say it,but I think Forrest will win.He won't "play nice" like he did in the last fight (no leg kicks).Plus he'll have an even more improved take down defense.

Forrest by decision.

I can't believe I think Tito can beat Wandy,but not Forrest Griffin.............probably because I've never seen Wandy sprawl.I guess they don't do much wrestling in Brazil.

WB.

PS-if you want to see Tito's true colors-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6FcCxvqOpE&search=ufc%2061