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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,498 |
Success is product of work and smarts...nothing more or less. Those attributes are certainly important. There is also a degree of good fortune (luck) involved...and it also has much more to do with the grace of God than all the planning and preparation we put so much stock in.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 33,740 Likes: 4
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 33,740 Likes: 4 |
If it was due to the grace of God I would be broke. Silly chit.
Conduct is the best proof of character.
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,498
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,498 |
If it was due to the grace of God I would be broke. Silly chit. It's not ALL about the choices you make. It's also about what life happens to throw at you.
Lots of stuff can happen beyond our control... What's silly Ed is to not realize that it's not ALL you and your hard work and your decisions that brought you whatever good fortune it is that you enjoy. Providence most certainly plays a role.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653 |
It's amusing to see all the guys claim that luck had nothing to do with it, after they were.....
Born is the greatest, most prosperous country on Earth
Born with a reasonable amount of innate intelligence
Born white
Born male
Add a modest dose of work ethic and keep him off drugs (really the only things we can claim as ours) and it'd be hard for that guy to fail.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,772 Likes: 20
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,772 Likes: 20 |
It's amusing to see all the guys claim that luck had nothing to do with it, after they were.....
Born is the greatest, most prosperous country on Earth
Born with a reasonable amount of innate intelligence
Born white
Born male
Add a modest dose of work ethic and keep him off drugs (really the only things we can claim as ours) and it'd be hard for that guy to fail. Jesse Jackson? That you?
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,945 Likes: 5 |
The concept of having to save a ton of money for a long retirement is relatively new. My fathers generation, WW-2 era, was the first where the majority moved away from home.
Prior to that older generations typically moved into homes with their children to live out their final years. And often on land originally owned by the previous generation. Even at that most did not have long retirements. They typically led productive lives right up until some illness led to a fairly quick death, at a young age. When SS was started they only planned on about 1/2 of all people getting a dime, and most of those for only a few years.
With today's medical care many older folks are living well into their 80's, or longer. Most are no longer productive for years and are being kept alive, and miserable, far longer than any other generation in history. My dad died a week shy of 90, mom is 84 and needs to stay in an assisted living facility. There is a 112 year old lady there.
The fact that people are living a lot longer, and needing expensive medical, often for decades, means we all need to rethink a lot of stuff.
Most people don't really want the truth.
They just want constant reassurance that what they believe is the truth.
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 16,000
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 16,000 |
Let me guess? You handled their investments?.. All those folks with the "bad luck"? That's an unlucky coincidence.
boy, you really are on a roll arn't you. Hemmroids acting up? no body said anything about "bad luck"
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,139
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,139 |
Ron: I am just a middle class citizen. I worked hard. Very hard to the extent I built 2 houses for my family working 10 hours at a job and 5 after. I invested (not always wisely) for 35 years. Never had a bunch of toys but more than a few rifles.
$3 MM invested is not squat when looking at future needs for retirement and inflation. I retired at 56 yo and have lucked into jobs that pay $100/hr for part time work. That involves education and skills developed through hard work.
Keeping fit is another aspect of financial "luck".
We control our own destiny and the finance is just part of this was my whole point in posting on this.
Hard work..education. skills..fitness. and learned smarts worked for me.
Again it's not a difficult path..it's just work
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Joined: Oct 2005
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 16,000 |
Ron: I am just a middle class citizen. I worked hard. Very hard to the extent I built 2 houses for my family working 10 hours at a job and 5 after. I invested (not always wisely) for 35 years. Never had a bunch of toys but more than a few rifles.
$3 MM invested is not squat when looking at future needs for retirement and inflation. I retired at 56 yo and have lucked into jobs that pay $100/hr for part time work. That involves education and skills developed through hard work.
Keeping fit is another aspect of financial "luck".
We control our own destiny and the finance is just part of this was my whole point in posting on this.
Hard work..education. skills..fitness. and learned smarts worked for me.
Again it's not a difficult path..it's just work
we find common agreement, as i agree with everything you wrote, and have been saying something similar for years. But i also think providence has something to do with it. I also think if you don't do all the above when things go against you then you are truely up against a wall. I come from immigrant people on one side, the other side here for years but not upper class. It took me 7 years to get through college, largely cause of having to work. I had very limited support. And have been kidded forever about planning to retire since somewhere around age 20. If i hadn't planned everything, there have been several times due to illness etc i would have been wiped out. Having said that, i know people with a LOT of money, and those with not so much. If there is magic, I think it is dealing with reasonable expectations, and living within ones means. It is that which causes so much difficulties. You can't eat steak on a pinto bean diet. I have had ups and downs through the years anybody in the markets has. But I have accumulated much more than my predecessors have. I also see the younger generation in the family pod. Out of quite a few grandchildren, a few "get it". I have no worries for them. The others i am not sure will ever "get it". Eventually it will bite. I know this is long, but one of my hero's is a black guy with two advanced degrees that does estate planning via insurance. He grew up in compton.. Multimillionaire today. Asked him about that. He growned and said we all pay our dues it's when you want to pay them. As a kid he went to school got a couple of scholarships and started investing. He didn't let his race get in the way. A LOT of hard work in nother words. He said he could have done the drugs and women, but those he knew that did are mostly all dead now. I told him he really needed to be giving seminars in public schools to contra the al sharptons of the world. But I like to quote his story, which is a variation of what you wrote this last time.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 33,740 Likes: 4 |
Ron: I am just a middle class citizen. I worked hard. Very hard to the extent I built 2 houses for my family working 10 hours at a job and 5 after. I invested (not always wisely) for 35 years. Never had a bunch of toys but more than a few rifles.
$3 MM invested is not squat when looking at future needs for retirement and inflation. I retired at 56 yo and have lucked into jobs that pay $100/hr for part time work. That involves education and skills developed through hard work.
Keeping fit is another aspect of financial "luck".
We control our own destiny and the finance is just part of this was my whole point in posting on this.
Hard work..education. skills..fitness. and learned smarts worked for me.
Again it's not a difficult path..it's just work
Spot on.
Conduct is the best proof of character.
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 19,560 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 19,560 Likes: 2 |
There are plenty of folk who stayed healthy, worked hard, and educated themselves best they could. They don't all have a net worth worth mentioning. Providence and luck absolutely play a role. To deny that is arrogant almost beyond belief.
MAGA
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,498
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,498 |
We control our own destiny... Only to a degree. You have no control over it if you get pancreatic cancer, or one of your children gets brain cancer, or if your wife loses her kidneys due to disease and has to go on hemodialysis for the remainder of her life...any of those things could wipe out all of that money that you saved up due to your hard work and good decision making. Kudos to you for your accomplishments, for your sound decision making, for your fiscal discipline, and for your hard work. I hope your good fortune continues.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,644
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,644 |
I'm a boomer and, not as a rule, terribly proud of my generation. That said, we aren't a generation except for actuarial and historical purposes. We are individual people. What I have seen is that for every person who truly suffered profound setbacks in life, and I haves seen some Jim-dandies, there have been ten who pizzed away very real opportunities and lied to themselves about the reasons they never got out of life's doodoo. Just what I saw. As I have said repeatedly, believing make-believe is dangerous. It's especially bad if you tell it to yourself.
The thing I wish I would have questioned is the ubiquitous societal myth that the goal is to do all the clever, frugal and resourceful things you can to save enough money so that life can be lived out sipping sarsaparilla on a tropical beach, and the sooner the better. The truth is that retirement planning needs to be about a whole lot more than just your money. Folks rust out faster than wear out. Rusting is demoralizing. Further, there is some wisdom in allocating some well thought out expenditures when your body will do things that it will not so easily do later. It seems, in life there is an inverse correlation, with time, between assets and health. When your health is as good as it is going to be, your assets are limited. When your assets accumulate, your health may not permit enjoying them.
I guess, what I am trying to say is that financial planning and fiscal discipline are worthwhile endeavors but need to be viewed with balance and in the context of all of life's blessings.
Make good assessments of reality and don't lie to yourself.
Whew.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,772 Likes: 20
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,772 Likes: 20 |
I'm a boomer and, not as a rule, terribly proud of my generation. That said, we aren't a generation except for actuarial and historical purposes. We are individual people. What I have seen is that for every person who truly suffered profound setbacks in life, and I haves seen some Jim-dandies, there have been ten who pizzed away very real opportunities and lied to themselves about the reasons they never got out of life's doodoo. Just what I saw. As I have said repeatedly, believing make-believe is dangerous. It's especially bad if you tell it to yourself. Then there's the very real factor of our psychological tendency to explain the suffering of others in terms of their having reaped only what they've sown. This is a psychological defense mechanism humans employ because the alternative belief, i.e., tragedy can strike anyone, regardless of the quality of their character and regardless of the prudence of their preparations, is too uncomfortable a thought for most to deal with for any length of time. Much more comforting to the psyche is to look at folks in a poor life condition and say to oneself, "If only that guy has prepared as wisely as I had." This way the thought never occurs to us: "There, but for the grace of God, go I." That said, it's undeniable that certain life strategies are superior to others, but those who possess them may well also have been lucky in having had said strategies inculcated into them by good parents, or good life experience, or good cultural backgrounds. Pride is a constant temptation. Gratitude to God (or fate) is the minority position among the successful. That's not to say, however, that good character and practices don't usually lead to success, since they do, and they are indeed praiseworthy. But it's only one factor, not the whole kit and caboodle.
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 23,319
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 23,319 |
We just buried my stepmother (my dad's second wife) last week. She turned 85 on 19 SEP. My dad would have been 92 this month on 11 Oct. I didn't know how much my dad had accumulated in his retirement portfolio until yesterday when us surviving kids (four out of seven were there) met with the family advisor. As I look back over the year I can remember my dad teaching us about the stock market. He bought some Zambian copper mining stock call Roan Select back in the 1950 and would give us boys a monthly dividend (usually a dollar and some change) to demonstrate the wisdom of investing. He never turned on a computer in his whole life, but invested regularly in the stock market. I remember seeing him with handwritten notes on a pad of paper tracking his investments. He rose to the position of VP and Treasurer of Kerr McGee in Oklahoma City before retiring in 1984 and the age of 62. All these years I never knew how much he had salted away, but he and my step mom (my mother and his first wife died in 1968 at age 46) sold their house in the city and moved to the lake and lived a good life. Not once did any of us kids have to help them in their old age. So out of the simple process of getting an education, productively working in the energy sector (oil, gas, nuclear) and following his own advice he gave to us kids ... "pay yourself first," he was able to build up a $2million portfolio of stocks, bonds, and cash which provided a comfortable retirement for him and my step mom. Now this is going to be divided seven ways and passed down to us kids and/or the surviving children (my older brother has already passed.) The moral of the story for me is this . . . My dad followed the time honored method of delayed gratification. Pay yourself first every payday. Work in an industry that provides more than enough income to take care of your immediate needs as well as future needs. Invest early in life and let the magic of compounding work for you. ![[Linked Image]](http://www.phun.org/newspics/funny_friday_4/9935.jpg) Sperm donor's daughter who was never taught life's financial lessons.
"All that the South has ever desired was that the Union, as established by our forefathers, should be preserved, and that the government, as originally organized, should be administered in purity and truth." – Robert E. Lee
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Posts: 15,644
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,644 |
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,772 Likes: 20
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,772 Likes: 20 |
We just buried my stepmother (my dad's second wife) last week. She turned 85 on 19 SEP. My dad would have been 92 this month on 11 Oct. I didn't know how much my dad had accumulated in his retirement portfolio until yesterday when us surviving kids (four out of seven were there) met with the family advisor. As I look back over the year I can remember my dad teaching us about the stock market. He bought some Zambian copper mining stock call Roan Select back in the 1950 and would give us boys a monthly dividend (usually a dollar and some change) to demonstrate the wisdom of investing. He never turned on a computer in his whole life, but invested regularly in the stock market. I remember seeing him with handwritten notes on a pad of paper tracking his investments. He rose to the position of VP and Treasurer of Kerr McGee in Oklahoma City before retiring in 1984 and the age of 62. All these years I never knew how much he had salted away, but he and my step mom (my mother and his first wife died in 1968 at age 46) sold their house in the city and moved to the lake and lived a good life. Not once did any of us kids have to help them in their old age. So out of the simple process of getting an education, productively working in the energy sector (oil, gas, nuclear) and following his own advice he gave to us kids ... "pay yourself first," he was able to build up a $2million portfolio of stocks, bonds, and cash which provided a comfortable retirement for him and my step mom. Now this is going to be divided seven ways and passed down to us kids and/or the surviving children (my older brother has already passed.) The moral of the story for me is this . . . My dad followed the time honored method of delayed gratification. Pay yourself first every payday. Work in an industry that provides more than enough income to take care of your immediate needs as well as future needs. Invest early in life and let the magic of compounding work for you. Sperm donor's daughter who was never taught life's financial lessons. "Pay yourself first." Sounds like your dad might have been a devotee of George S. Clason (November 7, 1874 � April 7, 1957), the author of The Richest Man In Babylon. I believe he originated that slogan, in that book, as a guide to a financially secure life. If you haven't read it, you may find it valuable, particularly as a gift for young people. It's still in print.
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 20,683
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 20,683 |
Richest man in Babylon is indeed a good tome for young folks.
Think Dave Ramsey does a better job for today's culture.
I got that book at about 21 from an insurance agent that had me convert a life insurance policy thus losing all the cash value I'd built up in it. He ripped me off on that transaction, but more than made up for it by giving me that book. We've used that principle "pay yourself first" our whole adult working lives. It's been key to our success.
OrangeOkie also touched upon things that need mentioning. Part of my good luck was to be raised by my maternal grandparents that had come of age during the Great Depression.
the lessons in life, love and money they taught me (particularly Pops) still pay me enormous dividends to this day.
there's no denying my "luck" having two such wonderful people love and to help raise me.
I'd give a goodly sum of what i have tucked away to put my arms around each of them and try failingly to tell them how grateful I am for their love and teachings.
I'm pretty certain when we sing our anthem and mention the land of the free, the original intent didn't mean cell phones, food stamps and birth control.
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 18,463 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 18,463 Likes: 2 |
I guess I'm of the mindset, I'm going to live life and spend money on things I enjoy now and while I'm in good enough health to do them, not save every penny for when I'm too old and broken down to wipe my own ass. I'd rather be making memories than staring at a bank statement....YMMV
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,772 Likes: 20
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,772 Likes: 20 |
I guess I'm of the mindset, I'm going to live life and spend money on things I enjoy now and while I'm in good enough health to do them, not save every penny for when I'm too old and broken down to wipe my own ass. I'd rather be making memories than staring at a bank statement....YMMV So it's better to be the grasshopper than the ant? Was Aesop wrong?  ![[Linked Image]](http://www.best-childrens-books.com/images/grasshopper-and-ant.gif)
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