Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Army wants a harder hitting handgun

When I qualified with them they were listed as M-15s on the qualifications cards.

You're probably right, Dave. I may be confusing caliber and designation listed on the qualification card.

I'd have preferred the Combat Masterpiece to the Beretta 92.

That quite a statement. Don't the SEALS use Sigs?

WTF? Sigs don't hold up?

Yes. Been using them for years. Get them all covered with sand and salt water, and sometimes blood. And they're still using them.

Did he learn all about what tunnel rats used in VN while serving in the band and as a REMF pogue stateside, not once leaving the confines of the US to enter harm's way?

TAK is every bit as stupid as derby_didn't.

Just in case you guys didn't get the memo...




Travis

Bwahahahahahaha!!

Glad I wasn't drinking coffee when I read that...

rhetorical question on my part in order to solicit one of his profundities...

When my county SD in WI went to .45 ACP, they selected the SIG P220 in no small part because there were former SEALs involved in the selection process. I didn't like the single-stack configuration for patrol officers, but that was my only objection and since I wasn't in Patrol it didn't impact me personally. Most of the guys in Patrol went to quad mag pouches to keep personal loadouts at a reasonable level. Our SWAT team guys loved the P220. It was as accurate as my competition-configured 1911's, and at least as accurate and reliable. I never had my P220 puke on me in training or in competition, and never saw or heard of one puking during training or ops, no matter how wet or dirty or cold or slimy the conditions were.

That's good to hear. A P220 SAO is currently serving nightstand duty in my home.

Kevin,
While I agree with most of what you have above, there are plenty of reports of M1 Carbine in Korea failing to cycle in sub-freezing temps, and plenty of reports that the .30 carbine round failed to penetrate the quilted coats that the Chicoms wore, and that is not all on 300 yard shots. There are interviews with Korean War Vets - on both sides- that support this.

You are 100% on target with this:"... people forgot that it wasn't a main issue battle rifle. They kept asking more and more of the design, and were surprised and offended when they found the limits. "

It was never designed or intended to be a Main Issue Battle Rifle, yet was pressed into that service.

I'll also attest to its effectiveness as a PDW since that is my choice for home.

I did. The M-9 is too large for many people. I qualified expert with the M-9 (not hard standards) but my stubby fingers didn't grip them like they should! I was more proficient with the M-15.

yeah, and the garand would freeze up too, same action. Solution was to pee on them. As to the quilted chinese a lot of that is attributed to big quilted cold weather clothing and a half starved chinese. There is a clip somewhere of firing a carbine into a telephone poll. I would not want one shot at me.

My agency issued the Sig 226 and I carried them for close to 12 years.
This was during the '80s, we tested the hk usp also and liked them better but DOE admin chose the Sig and they were strong. I hated the ergo and the trigger was abysmal but with 1-2k rounds of free ammo/week you can learn to shoot anything well. They rarely broke but were difficult to dress around for concealed carry. I much prefer Glocks but would trust a Sig 226 made in Germany.

mike r

Same. For the rank and file, think it's the ergos of the present M9 that are a barrier to maximizing it's effective use, at least as much as any chambering debate. I've average or maybe smaller hands, and drawing and gripping the M9 was a fiddlyplucky affair to then shoot well, certainly not a design I felt good about whipping out under duress.

How did anybody know that, I've always wondered.

How many of those coats were examined in the snow and the ice just after battle?

Somebody ought to get one of these old Chinese quilted coats and shoot at it with a carbine, and then post it on Youtube.

I have a book at home titled �Battlefield Analysis of Infantry Weapons� compiled by Army officers during the Korean War. It is based on multiple after action interviews with front line troops about how they actually used their weapons and the effectiveness of each weapon. It covers everything from the .45 and hand grenades up to bazookas. It has a section on the carbine, I�ll have re-read it and see what it ways.

One thing I remember is that the majority of troops did not engage targets much beyond 200 yards even with their .30-06 Garands. They just didn�t think they�d hit much beyond that range and it was a waste of precious ammo to try. That makes me think the question of whether a .30 carbine could penetrate a heavy coat at 300 yards seem a bit moot. I'm sure someone will come up with a story of an exceptional rifleman shooting Chinese past 500 yards but the book covers the actions of the majority of GI's, not the exceptional individuals.

Another thing interesting while I�m thinking about this is that in Korea the BAR was actually the Queen of Battle, not the Garand. Men would hunker down at the start of a firefight and not fire their weapons until the BAR man opened up, then individual riflemen would begin firing from the area of the BAR fire spreading outward. Don�t know how that goes today since everyone has an automatic weapon but it is in interesting insight into how firepower more than accurate individual rounds inspires confidence.

I've read a couple books about the Chosin Reservoir campaign that repeat the claim that bullets from M1 carbines bounced off the Chi-Coms' quilted coats, but there was/is no real evidence of that happening.

It's possible that at the extremely low temperatures at that battle, some cartridges may have failed to ignite properly, I suppose... but I really doubt that a quilted cotton coat would repel even the lowly 30 Carbine bullet. I suspect that a lot of ChiComs were shot with carbines and failed to fall down immediately, even though they'd received serious GSW's.

But further to your post, it seems that most of the firefights that occurred in the Chosin campaign were conducted at very close range... the hilltop stand of Fox Company certainly did! Nobody had to worry about adjusting his point of aim for distances at all in most of those fights.