Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Building a retro 1911 a la' the Pachmayr Combat Special?

I've been reading over the back issues of American Handgunner available online and have become enamored with the early IPSC 1911's, particularly the Pachmayr Combat Special as used by Ross Seyfried and others.

I'm thinking of putting together a 1911 along the lines of the Combat Special and have a few questions: first, should I "build" at all when I can buy a Les Baer Boss .45 off the shelf? It has most of the features that the Combat Special had (hard chrome frame, blue slide flat topped and serrated, "buried Bomar" sights, extended thumb safety, etc.) as well as the usual Baer build quality.

Second question, if not Baer, how about a new production Colt Mark IV/Series 80 Gold Cup? It has the sights already installed, and I would likely send it to Clark Custom Guns to have the slide flat topped and serrated and the frame hard chromed; either them or Accurate Plating and Weaponry.

Next option: New production Colt Series 70. It would need everything the Gold Cup needs, but would require new sights.

What are the relative merits of a Colt-based build versus an off the shelf gun like the Baer Boss? I would not order one from Baer; I'm not waiting 18 months for this gun, I'd lose interest waiting that long.

Any thoughts on the Pachmayr Combat Special or the early IPSC 1911's in general? I freely admit that this build is based on aesthetics alone, and my desire for a certain "look" and feel, rather than any practicalities. I'm also on the hunt for early IPSC leather, particularly a Bianchi Chapman High Ride or a Milt Sparks Hackathorn Special and associated magazine carriers.

I've always liked the two-tone 1911 from a practical standpoint; the frame wears like iron and the top doesn't reflect a lot of light.

You can pick up a slightly used Baer as a base gun for $1500 or less which is likely the most economical path to what you're after.



If you want a modern day version of the Pachmayr pistol by one of the gunsmiths that made the original, check here .... the price is @ $4600 the last time I checked.

http://www.pistoldynamics.com/CS_Intro_2011.html

To really do a "retro" 1911 right would take some work. If I were building a truly retro 1911, my first step would be to find a real Swenson safety, that will be the hardest part to find.

Next up, an MS Safari Arms beavertail grip safety. Or have someone build you a Jim Hoag style grip safety (I just built one of those last month, so cool).

The next difficult find would be a real Bo-Mar sight, because if you're going to go to the trouble, it might as well say Bo-Mar on it.

The gun should have a Bar-Sto barrel. Front sight should be staked and silver soldered, no dovetail up front. Most 1911 slides that were serrated were not flat, but some were.

Should be built on a Series 70 or earlier Colt, 70 series preferable.

Hammer should be bobbed Colt spur hammer, or a real Commander hammer.

Trigger should be the aluminum 3 hole King/Videcki style.

Late '70's guns all had 20 LPI checkering on the front strap. Many had a 1911 GI mainspring housing that was checkered 20 LPI and the checkering extended to the rear of the frame.

ABSOLUTELY no front strap under-cutting; that's not correct for the period.

ETA - Sorry hit post before I was done

Rear of the slide should be serrated 40lpi. Some were checkered, but most were serrated.

Trigger guard should be checkered 40lpi, and about 50% of the guns of that era had squared trigger guards.

Ah yes, the good old days, when IPSC was relevant, and no one had even heard of Gaston Glock.
A matched pair built by the other half of the Pachmayr team, Craig Wetstein.

Raul Walters had one of these, 1978. He did a speed load of a mag, and the checkered ebony grip panels split on him. That was $150 at the time., about $800, in today's money.

Savuti,

Who's grip safety is that? I like it.

Baer "Boss" can be found in stock at various Baer dealers:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=449923904

though I'd be tempted to order one with the 1.5" option, where they guarantee it would shoot 1.5" groups at 50 yards.

Colt Special Combat Gov't is another option, though the darn things cost almost as much as Les Baers.

I think one of those would hold its value better than any customs.

I haven't had them apart for awhile, but I don't recall any maker's marks on them.
Whose GS would an ex-Pachmayr 'smith have used in 1981?

It looks handmade and fitted - they did that in the early days at Pachmayr.

If you'll notice, the frame cut for the grip safety isn't what was/is the standard .250 radius we know today.

Back in the IPSC days before all the "race" guns became the standard, in addition to the Bo-Mar sights, the Behlert Adjustable sights were also very popular.

L.W.

Probably something they made in house. The only commercially available beavertails back then were the MS Safari Arms ones (which were cool). There were a number of smith's who welded up a grip safety, or sliver soldered metal and re-shaped.

I was hoping it was something someone offered at some point; it's cool.

If you go down that path I believe I have an as new Bomar sight in my stash.

Here's what the MS Safari Arms grip safety looks like.

MM

O, the horror.

Kinda like spray painting a Savage to look like an Echols Classic?

�..beautiful Pete, simply beautiful. I wonder what ever happened to Roy Erwins Auto Shop guns or his Swensons???? I didn't remember that you shot in the 80 Nationals when they issued everyone the truncated cone ammo�.were you shooting with us at Powder Creek then? Sorry, my memory isn't what it used to be.

No, my intro to IPSC (and Roy) was when I attended Ray's academy in the summer of '80. I remember shooting with you at Mill Creek the following year.

I imagine some court appointed executor sold Roy's guns at wholesale. They're likely someone's glove box gun today.

...did Roy ever show you his Swenson guns?????? He had a set of consecutively serial numbered pre-series 70 Colts, a Combat Commander and the coolest handgun I've EVER seen, a full Swenson customized Browning HiPower (squared trigger guard, S&W K-sights, ambi-safety--the whole enchilada!!)

Supposedly he put them in a safety deposit box when he went to the Wetstein guns. I'd love to know what happened to them.

I've seen videos from the old days. "Practical" shooting was never "practical". And any attempts at making it more relevant (IDPA) just get more ridiculous.



Since the OP is going to have to spend several thousand dollars to have a custom gunsmith recreate one of the original IPSC guns, I'd say that's pretty good evidence that "race" guns have been popular all along.

There are compensated, dot sighted, open guns now...sure. But the guy who shows up with a box stock Glock or 1911 isn't competing against those. And open class isn't even the most popular division, so I'd hardly call open guns the "standard".
___________________________________

Competitive shooting is a sport, nothing more or less. As soon as you test skills against a timer and publish a ranking after the match, all practicality goes out the window because people want to win. It's the nature of the beast. If it's gonna be practical, there needs to be no timers and no rankings and no divisions.

Then it'll just be practice. But as soon as guys get together to practice shooting they're gonna want to know who's more accurate (scoring) and who's faster (timers) and then argue about how gear and calibers effected their shooting (power factors and divisions). Take away everything that makes competitive shooting impractical and within a year it'll have recreated itself.

Greg, yes I saw those Swensons. I was present when Roy called Armand because he couldn't remember how to field strip the HP since Swenson had built in some type of barrel lock system of his own design. Roy wanted to sell the gun, but was unable to take it down in front of prospective buyers!
It was an interesting conversation, with Roy trying not to let on that he couldn't remember how to strip the gun because he hadn't fired it in 5 years!

I guess "Practical" is a relative term. When IPSC was born the only other pistol shooting disciplines were NRA Bullseye and PPC.
I'll take IPSC over both, every day of the week.

That said, I stopped taking IPSC seriously ca. '83-84 when I saw the first compensated 1911 appear at a local match. Since then I've shot some IPSC, but only for the fun and the excersize.
I have no experience with IDPA so won't comment.

Oh, and the cost of turning a stock Series 70 GM into what's pictured above, about $850 in 1980s dollars.

I remember that!, Swenson couldn't remember how to take it apart either as he had put a long barrel in it and had made some kind of barrel bushing to fit to the slide. It had 2 ports cut parallel with the muzzle. I was shooting downstairs at the Bullet Hole w/Roy when the strip of metal between the ports broke off. Armand wouldn't tell him what kind of barrel it was; just kept saying, "it's a custom barrel laddie." !!!! :-). Good times, those.

I can recall in the early '80's when it wasn't uncommon to see someone compete and be competitive with a box stock 1911. I used to be a serious competitor but I lost interest when the "limited" stages were 40+ rounds long. And what killed it for me was the 2 hours of waiting in-between stages at the larger events. Oh, and the IPSC snobs, there were a lot of them. The whole thing got a bit clique-ish and a little exclusive, and that turned me off right quick.

They were often welcoming of a brand new shooter, in a condescending way, but as soon as they saw you as a threat, the nice wore off right quick.

"Practical" was a word that was debated intensely at the beginning as most clubs previously called it "combat" shooting (SWCPL, OCPL, etc.) and the word "combat" was considered too provocative in the post Viet Nam era. If you consider "practical" as a black and white absolute (measurable) standard, you're probably correct. If however you consider that in 1976 the ONLY other forms of organized pistol shooting were PPC, Bulleye and Metalic Silhouette shooting, IPSC was extremely "practical." Cooper sent out regular letters to the section coordinators urging us to design courses around actual shooting events; however, at the major events, they had to increase the round count and add more athletic elements simply to extend the standard deviation and better identify the best performer. In the early days, on a local basis, we frequently ran "The Saint Valentine Days Massacre," "The Sgt. York shoot," etc. A lot of them were based on actual events. "Practical"???? Maybe not, but certainly more so than any other event available at the time.


Maybe we're splitting vernacular hairs here, but I couldn't disagree with you more. In fact, IMO the MOST practical element to "practical" shooting is the timer (aside from man-on-man events). The timer adds artificial stress to shooting; in fact, a number of combat vets have mentioned that they felt more stress when the timer "beeped" than they did in actual combat. Obviously not all, but enough to be statistically significant. Granted, since the targets don't shoot back, the entire experience is artificial to some degree; however, man-on-man events bring an element of "practicality" that even supersedes simunition training at creating stress. Cooper was a huge fan of man-on-man. Obviously starting with the Big Bear Leatherslaps--the early events always ended with the top shooters competing in the man-on-man. In fact, Coopers idea was that all of the courses in the match were designed for the sole purpose of determining the top shooters that would enter the shoot off and then the Champion would be determined SOLEY by the shoot off. If you've ever gone to Gunsite, EVERY class has a man-on-man shoot off---some have one every day---purpose: to add an element of stress (practicality) to shooting.

Sorry for the bloviation -- end of soapbox.

JMO---of course, I could be wrong.

Kevin----on a different subject-----are you back in the gunsmithing business? If so, will you do trigger jobs on Smith revolvers?

$850 in 1984 is about equal to $2000 in 2014 (which is about what you'll soend to have an STI tuned up and ready to go). My point is that nothing has really changed. Guys were spending a lot on the benefits of better gear back then just like they do today.

I don't know if there were divisions when it all started, but now at least you're competing against guys who have spent roughly as much money as you. There's only so much you can spend on a Glock for Production Class or a 2011 for Limited Class before you get into greatly diminishing returns.

I'm sure there are guys who've spent $3K on a Glock. But the guy who spends $650 on a Glock isn't competing against them.

ETA-I drove to the Area4 Championshio this year with a guy who beat a GM and placed in the top 20% with a box stock M&P. 20% isn't amazing, but it shows that a $500 gun can be competitive.

The religion of the day was that a box stock Colt 1911 wasn�t as reliable as a Glock would be considered today, and that some modifications needed to be done to make it reliable. The 1911 also came with skimpy sights of a type that are superseded by those on a lot of pocket guns today. Another issue is that shooters were using different kinds of loads for different kinds of shooting and the 1911 of the day wouldn�t run the lead 200 grain SWC loads without some modifications. (My Glock 30 won�t run them even today.) I think that the technology has improved and that stock factory guns are better than they were back in the day.

It was kinda goofy starting a �practical� match from the surrender position. In the real world the average competitor would have been dead before touching the firearm.

Gmoats, we're on the same page.

What I meant was that a guy's competitive nature (when presented with a timer and rankings) will make the match impractical, not the actual timer and rankings themselves.

For example, if you said "Let's go shoot" I'd probably grab my duty gun and Level3 holster. But if you said "Let's go shoot and see who is faster and more accurate" I'd most certainly grab my Dawson sighted, Bluedreaux-trigger-jobbed, 5" gun with mag pouches and holster tweaked to fit my draw. It's my competitive nature that makes it impractical (because I know a timer and score sheet will be there). If that makes any sense....

I've made about $3K dollars shooting this year. The practical aspect of it is long gone for me, I treat it like a sport. And fortunately (or not, depending on your point of view) the matches have catered to the sporting aspect of it. I've got two big matches left this year and they're both "practical-stock gun" oriented matches. But I just finished reading one of the rule books again so that I can be legal, but show up with every advantage that I can. I'll never cheat to win, but I figure that if "Gun X" wasn't welcome, it'd be real easy to say in the rule book "Gun X isn't welcome". If there's a prize table, I'm gonna show up to win.
________________

I've never seen a guy who treated shooting as a sport look down on or mock the guys who treated it as training. But you can bet the "training" guys will scoff at the "gamers" all day. Not directed at anyone here, just an observation. It's really the opposite of what I'd expect.

I'll send you a PM

Hi all,
Craig Wetstein here.
At Pachmayr and at my shop, The Auto Shop, I would build up weld with a TIG welder on the grip safety. Then would radius the frame on the mill and cut a matching radius into the built up beaver tail to be.
It would then be rough formed on the belt sander and then filed to shape and fit the frame.
I am not gunsmithing anymore. I closed my shop in 1986 because of the poor economy and having carpal tunnel in both hands.
I knew Roy Erwin and he came to stay with us for a couple of matches, Bianchi Cup or Steel Challenge or something.
After all my years being around firearms, I just discovered this year the joy of black powder shooting.
You are welcome to ask me any questions, but I cannot trust my memory to be fully helpful.
If I can't remember or don't know, I will tell you.

I've never had the privilege of owning any of your work but your talents are certainly appreciated by those with ability to recognize real artistry.

Were any of these guys working at Pachmayr while you were there: Tim Barrett, Mike LaRocca or Les Pitman? I know LaRocca had his own shop at one time, but what about the other two gentlemen?

I'm glad to hear you're doing well.

Thank you so much for the kind words.
I don't know any of the names you mentioned.
I came to work for Tom Dornaus in 1976 at Pachmayr Gun Works.
Tom taught me everything about working on 1911's.
He was an excellent teacher and a great guy.
When he left Pachmayr to develope the Brenten, I was left in charge of the .45 shop.
I built on his teachings and developed my own style which I carried over eventually to my own shop in 1980.
When Tom left, Pachmayr hired a great talent to work with me. His name was and is Harry Ruffel.
Harry continued at Pachmayr until he was hired on to the Border Patrol.
Harry and I stay in touch.
He just retired as assistant chief.
I better stop now, I'm even boring myself.

Please keep on keeping on, Sir. Your two post have more relevant value than the last 26,000 in this section of the forum.

Comparatively speaking, how many full-house Combat Specials were built versus individual a la carte custom services back then?

ETA: Your comment about the economy back in 1986 is provoking. If you were building pistols today, someone of your reputation would likely have a backlog measured in years - not months. Funny how things can change in a relatively short period of time.

+1

Craig, you're not boring us at all!
Great to hear from you after all these years.

Pete

At Pachmayr, beside all the 1911 work we did, we were a warranty repair station for several manufacturers like Colt, S&W and others. The .45 dept was really the handgun dept. For the custom 1911's we would try to work on guns in groups, machining of the signatures, for instance. We would do porting of all the groups barrels at once, ejection ports, sights etc. Then we would take one gun at a time and do the slide tightening (which is a whole other dissertation), cosmetics, like checkering and trigger jobs. It was at that point that we stamped our initials and date on the bottom of the slide.
I don't recall how many "full house" guns compared to a la carte guns we did.
I hope that's helpful.

Talk some about slide tightening; peening vs. welding up and fitting or any other methods.
Thanks

At Pachmayr and my shop, The Auto Shop, we never welded rails, only peened. If a customer ever saw how we would pound the crap out of a slide, they would be horrified. I'm sure the methods are much more advanced and sophisticated these days.
Since you brought it up, here is my philosophy about slide tightening.
It is only relevant if you intend to test the gun in a machine rest. In my opinion, here is why.
Accuracy is simply having your sights, slide and barrel coming consistently into battery each cycle.
The sights and slide are fixed so the only other challenge is to get your barrel up into the slide consistently.
This is accomplished by a proper fitting barrel bushing, the barrel hood fitted and lastly the proper fit of the barrel bottom lugs fitted to the slide stop.
If the relationship of the sights to the slide and the barrel are all fixed, or as one solid unit, to me it does not seem to matter if the slide moves slightly around on the frame.
I proved this many times by the accuracy of my guns being shot off the bag, not out of a Ransom Rest.
Again, this is just my opinion.

Laughin' here.

Yeah, it takes a lot of pounding to move a hard slide much.............

Back in the day when I was doing work on 1911's, I used a lead mallet for the peening on the slides.

What did you use?.

MM

ball peen

I'm certainly a believer in that notion. I have a stock Colt with a lot of slide play that still shoots 2" @ 25 yards with the factory barrel and a custom fitted bushing.

I happen to believe that more advanced doesn't always mean better.

Thanks for your insight.

you are welcome.
Craig

Absolutely agree, glad to hear you say it. Frame to slide fit is 99% snob appeal and 1% performance. It's the biggest expenditure of dollars for the least return.

those are my grip safeties. Custom built at The Auto Shop as I have described, built up with weld and fit to frame.
Craig.

Oldpistolsmith, it is great to hear from someone else that spent some time building 45's at Pachmayr's. I was there a year or so ahead if you and they called me by a nickname of Chuck. I had a great time and learned a lot about 45's and custom work from Tom and some of the other smiths there including Mr. Pachmayr.
The only parts I remember getting from another shop were the safeties. At the time I was there we were doing more work on Signature models than Combat Specials, but I think the Specials were just taking off at the time.
I remember the hammer work on the rails of the frame and trying to get those rails on the slide of a Series 70 to take a set when squeezing them in a vice. You are absolutely right about the fit of the slide to the frame. The only thing that matters is where every thing is when the bullet leaves the muzzle. It doesn't have to be tight, just repeatable. Most shooters at the time had to have a tight slide. We gave it to them.
We had two or three earthquakes and I headed back to Georgia. I have lots of great memories about that shop and we were building some of the most accurate 45's made. Wish I had one.

I wish I had one too. Unfortunately most of my guns, including all of my .45s were stolen in 1998. It had such a bad effect on me that only until about three years ago could I start "playing" with guns.

Old Pistolsmith, sorry to hear that someone stole most of your guns. Care to tell us how it happened? Never know that it might help prevent the same happening to one of us.

BTW, I had Pachmayr build a .280 Remington on a 1909 Argentine Mauser action, back in 1979. Apex barrel, Canjar trigger, etc., etc. Frank took me through his wood warehouse and helped me pick out a beautiful English Walnut blank.

Over the years I've killed elk, Black bear, der, and antelope with it. A fine rifle.



L.W.

it was a house guest, friend of my daughter at the time. While she and were at work, he cleaned me out.
Here is the lesson, beside not trusting other people, all of my guns were recorded in our gun shop's FFL log, my father who ran the paperwork and gun sale side of the shop passed away in 1990.
I presumed I would always be able to find the log with the serial numbers of my guns. Unfortunately, I couldn't come up with numbers to give the police. So record those numbers somewhere you always know you can find them.
Also, do you remember who did your rifle?
Was it Kevin MacCullagh or Freddie Brunner?

Thanks for the info on the theft of your firearms. Sorry you never got them back.

As for my rifle, I believe it was Kevin MacCullagh. I think after Pachmayr Gun Works closed, he went out to The Reloading Bench in the Valley, as a gunsmith. (??)

L.W.

I believe Kevin went to Kings in Burbank and then into his own business of making special effect firearms for the movie business. I'm probably wrong, lost a lot of brain cells in the last 35 years.
The other gunsmith could have been Steve Alexander. A very talented guy whose main love and specialty was building reproductions of classic black powder rifles. Steve also did long gun work there. He is still working in the mid west somewhere.
I have fond memories of Harry Ruffle (worked for me in the 45 dept) Kevin and Steve setting the San Gabriel gun range on fire when Harry shot his home made black powder cannon. It was a small fire and we put it out easily. If you did not know, the prerequisite to being a gunsmith is being a pyromaniac first.

I'm with you on the loss of brain cells. Kinda goes with getting older, huh?

I was mistaken about McCullough being at The Reloading Bench. I went through a whole bunch of old business cards from when I lived in Los Angeles, and found Kevin McCullough's business card from when he was at the Pony Express Gun Store out in Sepulveda, after Pony Express moved there from Encino.

If I remember correctly I had my Pachmayr rifle there for a different set of rings and Kevin recognized it and said he'd help build it at Pachmayr's several years earlier. The other gunsmith at Pony Express at that time was Gary Hardwick.

Almost all those gun stores are closed now.

L.W.