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[quote=BarryC]Serfs in my state aren't allowed to use rifle on deer, so my experience with rifles killing stuff is limited.
My question is don't midweight Barnes monos like the TSX make heavy 30/06 bullets obsolete? BC's of the X bullet are not in the same league as the AccuBond's, the 200gr in the 06 makes it a 500yd deal the 168gr X bullet about 300yds where performance drops off sharply. How so, the 168 loses that much more energy after 300 yds? Goes like this , 168gr TSX-BT(BC .404) at 2900fps mv compared to a 200gr Accubond (BC .588) at 2700fps mv, 300yds 1862/2253, 400yds 1543/1984, 500yds 1270/1740, 600yds 1039/1522 ft/lbs respectively. Combination of Ballistic Coefficient of the bullet and speed, down range the higher BC bullet will retain more speed/velocity . So in my 30-06 the 200gr Accubond is the best choice for far away big big game. Wow, I had no idea a a 200 grain would hold its fps better than a 168grn. Somewhere along the line I was lead to believe the 168 grain was about the best long range option for an 06, I guess I need to reassess and study that some more. Of the two loads you mentioned, would you happen to know how the two compare in recoil lbs? Thanks. [/quote http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp There is a recoil comparator at this sight. My 200gr load uses 54gr RL-17 and the 168gr load uses 58gr H4350 and using a rifle of 8lbs , the 200gr load is 22.64, 168gr load 20.49 ft/lbs or ~ 10% difference. Also the 200gr load drifts 16.55" vs the 168gr loads 22.36" at 500yards in a 10 mph wind at 90 degrees to the flight path.
Last edited by Furprick; 02/16/14.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp There is a recoil comparator at this sight. My 200gr load uses 54gr RL-17 and the 168gr load uses 58gr H4350 and using a rifle of 8lbs , the 200gr load is 22.64, 168gr load 20.49 ft/lbs or ~ 10% difference. Also the 200gr load drifts 16.55" vs the 168gr loads 22.36" at 500yards in a 10 mph wind at 90 degrees to the flight path. Furprick is right...I ran this stuff through the bullistics calculator.There are minor differences along the way but by the time you get to 500 yards, from a 250 yard zero,the two bullets are identical for drop, and the 200 gr AB wins for wind..his numbers are spot on.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Two heavies, the 200 AB and the 190 IL... ![[Linked Image]](http://www.hunt101.com/data/556/medium/IMG_01963.JPG) fired into (sea) ice at 100-150 yards from a 30-06. It's not a realistic test medium, but at least they held up. (They actually look very similar to the 140 NPT and 139 IL I shot into ice at around 100 a week ago.)
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Klik a pal used the 200 AB @ app 3100 fps(300 Weatherby) on a bull elk this fall; both recovered bullets looked "good", about like yours.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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That 200 AB is a great bullet. It has worked so well for my buddy in his 300 RUM I was irratated I couldn't get them to shoot as well as I wanted for the WSM, I sold the WSM. Ha. They open real nice and penetrate great. Tough bullets. Never thought of trying them in a 30-06 but it seems like they would be very serious bullets at 30-06 speeds.
Semper Fi
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Sierra's tech line, told me that bullet was probably flying too fast at that distance to open up.. probably passed right thru the buck.... That explanation seems to reflect a basic mis-understanding of potential causative factors...I don't think less velocity would have helped... but I'll buy that 200gr is constructed too heavily for smaller, light bodied game. An AB/BT, SST, A-Max, Partition would have been more better. Or even a lowly Win Power Point. When I look at terminal performance, my mind does not naturally gravitate to Sierra.
It ain't all burritos and strippers my friends...
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Hmmmm... Let's see now... a .300 mag is a waste of powder because a .30-06 is "just as good". Right? Then is a .308 Win "just as good" because there's minimal difference between it and a .30-06? I just can't agree... and not sorry 'bout that! A .300 Win Mag has a 300 fps advantage over the '06 firing the 200 AB starting out! That gives it a 150 yd advantage. Anything the .30-06 can do at 300 yards the .300 Win can do at 450! I see that as a distinct advantage! Or anything the '.06 can do at 25 yards (griz?) the .300 Win can do at 175 yards! That's why I've owned a bunch of .300 magnums and never another .30-06 since 1985. If I really wanted a milder .308 Something it would be the .308 Winchester, because with it I could really have a handier package. And 3000 ft-lbs from a 200gr/.308-cal in a .30-06 is NOT comparable to 4000 ft-lbs from a 286gr/.366-cal in a 9.3 X 62! Those are facts, not hyperbole. It may very well be that one doesn't need that extra 1000 ft-lbs for most situations, but it may very well be that all one really needs is a .308 Winchester for all North American big game.... on second thought, maybe I should go purchase a .303 British for $75 and be happy with that since every big-dangerous game in N.A. has been taken cleanly with it including polar bear! Oh wait, OTOH, Inuit have taken the white bears with .223s and .243s, and a native girl shot and killed a world-record grizzly with a lowly single-shot .22LR !!!! Man, am I over gunned! Bob www.bigbores.ca
"What shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his own soul" - Jesus
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Hmmmm... Let's see now... a .300 mag is a waste of powder because a .30-06 is "just as good". Right? Then is a .308 Win "just as good" because there's minimal difference between it and a .30-06? I just can't agree... and not sorry 'bout that! A .300 Win Mag has a 300 fps advantage over the '06 firing the 200 AB starting out! That gives it a 150 yd advantage. Anything the .30-06 can do at 300 yards the .300 Win can do at 450! I see that as a distinct advantage! Or anything the '.06 can do at 25 yards (griz?) the .300 Win can do at 175 yards! That's why I've owned a bunch of .300 magnums and never another .30-06 since 1985. If I really wanted a milder .308 Something it would be the .308 Winchester, because with it I could really have a handier package. And 3000 ft-lbs from a 200gr/.308-cal in a .30-06 is NOT comparable to 4000 ft-lbs from a 286gr/.366-cal in a 9.3 X 62! Those are facts, not hyperbole. It may very well be that one doesn't need that extra 1000 ft-lbs for most situations, but it may very well be that all one really needs is a .308 Winchester for all North American big game.... on second thought, maybe I should go purchase a .303 British for $75 and be happy with that since every big-dangerous game in N.A. has been taken cleanly with it including polar bear! Oh wait, OTOH, Inuit have taken the white bears with .223s and .243s, and a native girl shot and killed a world-record grizzly with a lowly single-shot .22LR !!!! Man, am I over gunned! Bob www.bigbores.ca I have both, the 9.3 has about 2x the recoil of the 30-06, but I have not seen 2x the killing power. I like 300Winchester for heavy high BC bullets for long range.
Adalwolf
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2x the recoil? Is this a serious statement? You have not provided any parameters for comparison.
The way life should be.
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A.O. Bush; And how do YOU measure 2X "the killing power"? Have you shot a game animal 2X the size with the 9.3 as you have with the ".06? Dead is DEAD! Right? You can't kill a deer 2X "deader" with a 9.3 X 62 than you can with an '06! Or not even a 800 lb bull elk at 150 yards! But what about a 2000 lb bison at 250 yards? And how many well-placed shots? Phil Shoemaker "stopped" a big wounded brown bear with his .30-06, but they were 2 very fast well-placed shots using premium 200gr Noslers! I don't know of anyone who would be as fast as Phil! If he'd used his .458 with 450gr A-Frames, would it have taken 2 shots to stop the bear? Or his 9.3 X 62 using 286 Noslers? Maybe he can tell us! Bob www.bigbores.ca
Last edited by CZ550; 03/10/14.
"What shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his own soul" - Jesus
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2x the recoil? Is this a serious statement? You have not provided any parameters for comparison. The recoil calculator for my two 7.5 lb Sako M85's, state the 30-06 with 200 gr bullet ,54 grains of powder at 2700 fps will have 24.15 ft/lbs of recoil. My 9.3x66 with 286 grain bullets and 68grains of powder at 2500 fps will recoil at 41.16 ft/lbs, so almost 2X the recoil.
Adalwolf
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A.O. Bush; And how do YOU measure 2X "the killing power"? Have you shot a game animal 2X the size with the 9.3 as you have with the ".06?Dead is DEAD! Right? You can't kill a deer 2X "deader" with a 9.3 X 62 than you can with an '06! Or not even a 800 lb bull elk at 150 yards! But what about a 2000 lb bison at 250 yards? And how many well-placed shots? Phil Shoemaker "stopped" a big wounded brown bear with his .30-06, but they were 2 very fast well-placed shots using premium 200gr Noslers! I don't know of anyone who would be as fast as Phil! If he'd used his .458 with 450gr A-Frames, would it have taken 2 shots to stop the bear? Or his 9.3 X 62 using 286 Noslers? Maybe he can tell us! Bob www.bigbores.ca I have shot animals that weighed twice as much as each other, 600 and 1200 pounds. The 9.3 is more decisive than the 30caliber whether magnum or not. All animals fell to the ground with well placed shots which is much easier with the light recoiling rifle. With this in mind , the heavy recoiling rifle needs more attention for good shooting, therefore shots are much nearer because of aiming error, 150 yards but not past 200. You can't see 2x the killing power but you can feel 2x the recoil, so is 2x recoil worth 1x killing power.
Last edited by A_O_Bush; 03/10/14.
Adalwolf
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A.O. Bush; And how do YOU measure 2X "the killing power"? Have you shot a game animal 2X the size with the 9.3 as you have with the ".06?Dead is DEAD! Right? You can't kill a deer 2X "deader" with a 9.3 X 62 than you can with an '06! Or not even a 800 lb bull elk at 150 yards! But what about a 2000 lb bison at 250 yards? And how many well-placed shots? Phil Shoemaker "stopped" a big wounded brown bear with his .30-06, but they were 2 very fast well-placed shots using premium 200gr Noslers! I don't know of anyone who would be as fast as Phil! If he'd used his .458 with 450gr A-Frames, would it have taken 2 shots to stop the bear? Or his 9.3 X 62 using 286 Noslers? Maybe he can tell us! Bob www.bigbores.ca I have shot animals that weighed twice as much as each other, 600 and 1200 pounds. The 9.3 is more decisive than the 30caliber whether magnum or not. All animals fell to the ground with well placed shots which is much easier with the light recoiling rifle. With this in mind , the heavy recoiling rifle needs more attention for good shooting, therefore shots are much nearer because of aiming error, 150 yards but not past 200. You can't see 2x the killing power but you can feel 2x the recoil, so is 2x recoil worth 1x killing power. You didn't really answer the question, but from your answer you're suggesting that you killed a 600 lb game animal with a .30-06 and a 1200 lb game animal with a 9.3 X 62. What's the heaviest game animal you've shot with a .30-06? If it's 1200 lbs, then at what range and how many shots? In answering the question with fairness, you would have to shoot a 2400 lb game animal (a big bison?) at the same range with the same number of shots from the same quality bullets placed appropriately into vitals to know that the 9.3 X 62 does or doesn't have 2X the killing power or ONLY 1X the killing power of a.30-06!! From your answer I conclude that you don't know the answer because you've never been in a situation to conclude anything of the nature of your answer (2X the recoil for 1X the killing power). If your answer were true, then we wouldn't have .35 Whelens, .338 Win Mags or 9.3X 62s, or even the great .375 H&H or a .375 anything. You answer simply doesn't present any logic. As I previously suggested, none of us would choose even the .30-06, because we could all get along fine with less and less recoil, like in a .223 Remington! Bob www.bigbores.ca
Last edited by CZ550; 03/10/14.
"What shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his own soul" - Jesus
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He has tons of experience, probably doesn't want to argue with you.
Gerry.
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He has tons of experience, probably doesn't want to argue with you. No argument on my behalf. A well placed shot with a 30-06 , with the appropriate bullet for the game and distance, will kill as well as any of the mediums. The 9.3 will kill in a more dramatic fashion then the 30-06 generally. I have shot moose to 1200 pounds live weight with both. If I know I'm hunting a big animal I will use the 9.3, for everything else up to and including big animals the 30-06 is enough, Most opportunities are inside 150m. The 9.3 recoils as much as 2x of the 30-06, much easier to shoot well. The bullet has to penetrate the vital organs, that's all. As far as going less and less, there is a point of diminishing returns. the 30-06 seems to intersect the high's and lows of cartridge performance , in terms of trajectory, on game performance , recoil tolerance, choices of rifles available. There are better tools/cartridges for a given task and they will encompass some of the attributes of the 30-06.
Last edited by A_O_Bush; 03/10/14.
Adalwolf
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I think the next step "up" above a 30/06 or 300 mag is to a 375 caliber...I hear the 9.3 is pretty similar. Yes....definitely. There are 3 levels of performance that you can see in the field: 1. 270 and most everything either side of it. 2. 375 Holland and Holland. 3. .460 Weatherby.
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
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I've had considerable experience with both the .30-06 using 200-grain Nosler Partitions and the 9.3x62 using 286-grain Partitions. There's not a huge difference between them, but I would say the 9.3x62 kills quicker, especially on game larger than deer. Of course, there will be some overlap in performance, with the .30-06 putting some animals down quicker. But on average the edge would go to the 9.3x62.
My general observation is that once caliber is .35 or larger, it really starts to make a difference. Below that, not so much. But that impression isn't nearly as firm as the difference between the .30-06 and 9.3x62 with the two Partitions mentioned. The 35 Whelen does all that I need. I may not be widely available, but it is a tried and true go-to cartridge.
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I think the next step "up" above a 30/06 or 300 mag is to a 375 caliber...I hear the 9.3 is pretty similar. Yes....definitely. There are 3 levels of performance that you can see in the field: 1. 270 and most everything either side of it. 2. 375 Holland and Holland. 3. .460 Weatherby. If you need the power of a 460 Weatherby use an RPG instead. The felt recoil is less
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If you are looking for penetration (and I believe that is the secret to "killing" power in any cartridge) you'd be really hard pressed to beat a 190-220 grain bullet from a .30-06.
However, if what you are looking for is more reaction to the shot and "quick kills" that begins at about .35 caliber (maybe at .338...but it's not as reliable). Can't explain it and can't prove it by ballistics, but years of experience tells me this is true. Even a low velosity...low power.... round such as the .35 Remington will outperform the .30-06 at ranges under 100 yards. At longer ranges velosity starts to make a difference, but nat "real world" hunting distances big bore makes a difference.
At 200 yards (where most deer are actually killed) a bigger bore size will work better. If 300 yard shots are an option (actually quite rare in the real world) then something like the .338 Magnum or .375 H&H (with lighter bullets) might be appropriate, but for 90% of the "real world" hunting situations the .338 Federal, .358 Winchester or even a 9.3x62mm would be right.
Hell, at "real world" distances of under 100 yards (where most deer are actually killed) the .35 Remington, .375 Winchester, .44 magnum, .444 or the .45-70 are probably better choices than the .30-06
I hate change, it's never for the better.... Grumpy Old Men
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The 30-06 with 220's ?
The 338 with 250's ?
The 9.3x62 with 286's ?
The .375 with 300's ?
The .416 with 400's ?
Or 458's with 500's ?
What I really want to know is which is better - the .270 or the 30-06 ?
Phil,
If I was hunting big bears with you I would bring the 35 Whelen with 250 gr. Bullets.
A 30-06 with 220 gr Partitions just might be ok as well. I would leave the .270 at home.
whelennut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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