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Thanks, Travis. Appreciate it.

We often forget how very young these men were, thanks to Hollywood, which tends to cast actors who are 10-30 years older.

Phenomal pics, thanks

Seen the movie again this weekend, its good enough to do that and good enough to bring the thread back for a bit.

Second time around the final shootout against elements of the SS "Dummkopf" division ain't quite so absurd, least ways not as far as them opening up on the approaching German column in the open w/machine guns, then the first two cannon shells taking out the vehicles, next two white phosphorus into the house.

And for those as clueless about the specifics of tanks as I was, a pretty good reference site...

www.tanks-encyclopedia.com

I believe there was more to the incident than that. IIRC Churchill had made it one of our highest priorities to capture a Tiger, and a team was put together and sent North Africa with the express purpose of capturing one..

Once the Tank was in British hands, Chirchill went out to North Africa to inspect it personally and to say thanks to those involved.

I did buy a paperpack book written by the British Major who was in change of the operation, although I never got around to reading more than the dust cover..Will have to see if i can find it..

Getting back to the film, Bovington also provided the Pitts Sherman as well as the Tiger...

Interesting to see a Sherman, that is not restored and not in very good shape... frontal "armor" on the one I saw up in Canada at a Canadian Legion, had metal over concrete in the front for armor...

They made those things with all sorts of engine combinations...

from a Chrysler "motor" that consisted of five 6 cylinder Chrysler motors, side by side, and hooked into one transmission..

They also made them with Diesel engines in them, but since the Army wanted everything running on 'one fuel' and picked gasoline, the Diesel Shermans were still made and just given to the Russians...

They were also made with Air Cooled Radial Aircraft engines, designs that were superceded by bigger and more powerful engines before the war started... but they worked fine for a tank..

for Sherman's, the focus was on shear numbers, not high quality....the high attrition was an acceptable fact by military planners....

recently getting Bill O'Reilly's book "Killing Patton", I remember a comment made by his driver, that replaced his war time driver, when it was all over...He commented about being shocked of all the Sherman tanks 'littering' the roads of Germany 'all over' in 1945....

always seems history portrays Germany was pretty much beaten by January 1945.. but in reality, a lot of Americans lost their lives in Germany between January and the end of April 1945...

PS: those pics and that story by Local Dirt, was fantastic..
thanks for posting them...

[u][/u]

Coulda been a nice touch in the movie if they would have alluded to the appalling loss rate of Shermans and their crew with a brief statement rolled over the closing scene, especially as they used actual WWII combat footage so effectively as the credits rolled at the end.

Birdwatcher

Things might have been different for you guys had the US adopted the Sherman Firefly with its 17lb...It was offered by the British in late 1943, but it was over a year before the US started using it, and even then it was only in small numbers..

Last event I had my jeep at. We had the Commo. Mine IsThe rear left. Neal you may recognize photo. It's at Camp Mabry for the Texas Military muster. Back in 2011. Love the way the ground shook! All of these Sherman's are privately owned withthe the exception of the museums Sherman.

Far right of frame you can just make out US half track.

Kaywoodie, thanks for the pic. Dad liked those Jeeps. He thought they were pretty much indestructible, with the right guy behind the wrench when they needed wrenching.

From what I saw in my life, he was that guy.

Pitt's tank "Fury" ia a Sherman M4E8 "Easy 8"with the 76 mm gun.
With HVAP ammo it was more than capable of taking out any German tank up to Tiger MKVI. Like in the movie.

Testing of the time showed the 17 lber was slightly better but the APCR they used had atrocious accuracy.

The German guns had a bit more pen range tho and they would try to stand off at the limit of range allied tanks could pen them.
The German Panther and Tiger were rushed into service and were not properly developed at the time they first were put into service. Nor were they ever around in significant numbers.
Panthers were extremely prone to breakdowns.
Lucky for the Allies!

The Sherman was actually a very fine combat tank, tho the early versions were optimized more for infantry support.
They had a decent 75mm gun.
When the first info came out about improved German tanks they put the 76mm into it.

Pretty well all armor forces of WWII experienced severe casualties. Most tank casualties came from anti tank guns more so than tank vs tank.
The difference for the Allies was that they out produced the Germans in tanks by a huge margin.

The Germans initially had very fine tank crews well trained and motivated. They made the difference for their side. Many late war Tiger crews had very large kill totals.

I saw the movie tonite and took it for what it is. I enjoyed it and would recommend it.

Bit of a Tank history buff here ...LOL.

I seem to recall the original 75mm had a better HE round which was considered very good for general purpose Infantry support which was why there was some reluctance to change.
Eventually, as the armour on German tanks improved, one of the senior American officers in Europe (Patton?)is supposed to have said: "Don't send me any more Shermans with the 75mm�..

As noted towed anti tank guns and tank destroyers played a far bigger ant-iarmour role than tends to be appreciated today..

Your welcome. This was the big show battle for about 2000 spectators. Just over the crest in front of tanks were axis infantry, the museums Hetzer, several half tracks, and a 2cm AA gun. Lot of noise for the folks!

Believe it or not have lots of young kids asking us very intelligent questions!!! Then again, most there have parents serving!

I seem to recall the original 75mm had a better HE round which was considered very good for general purpose Infantry support which was why there was some reluctance to change.
Eventually, as the armour on German tanks improved, one of the senior American officers in Europe (Patton?)is supposed to have said: "Don't send me any more Shermans with the 75mm�..

As noted towed anti tank guns and tank destroyers played a far bigger ant-iarmour role than tends to be appreciated today..

Pete

Exactly right Pete... it was a infantry support tank with anything anti tank wise a distant after thot. So the M3 75mm was it for its HE round. Early in the war it was enuf gun for the job but after D day not so much.

The 76mm gun was pretty fair with the HIVAP rounds the 17lber was better with just straight ap rounds.

Your generals quote was from Ike.

Doctrine was to let the Tank destroyers handle anti tank work as much as possible.

Sure do, Bob. I've been on that "battlefield" on Camp Mabry several times! Those guys sure know how to put on a good show! I'll be back up there pretty soon to watch my nephew on their next re-enactment!

That would be very cool to see and experience.

So am I to understand that the tank Pitt and his crew were in, was the Firefly ( with the 17 pounder cannon), that the Brits used? or was the American version 76mm available in WW2? I thought that was a development post war and saw first time combat use in Korea...

not much of a Tank Scholar, but via this thread and the movie, I've been reading on Wikipedia a fair amount this week... was going to stop into Barnes and Nobles this weekend and see if I can locate a tech book on them...

I believe its American, the so called "Easy Eight" model with the the 76mm High Velocity gun...I think the 17lb had a longer barrel...

Me too. From that Tanks-Encyclopedia web site I've become interested in this; the 1918 Mark A Whippet and the first hints of Blitzkrieg. Maybe the Krauts learned first because they were on the receiving end.

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww1/gb/British_medium_Mark-A_whippet.php



Some units penetrated deep behind German lines, creating havoc. This was confirmed even more during the April 1918 Amiens offensive. One remains famous above all. The "Musical box", cut off its own unit, but roamed at will for nine hours behind the German lines, wiping out an entire camp battalion, a motorized column, destroying machine-gun nests and an artillery battery and even an observation balloon, before finally being silenced by direct gunfire. Many other performed some staggering exploits, and Whippet crews were among the most decorated of WWI.

Had never heard of this machine before this, interesting how we forget that these World Wars were still very much "on" right up until the end, no matter what hindsight tells us. There's a pretty good youtube attached to that page too.

Birdwatcher

Yep Pete got it right its the 76mm gun, M4 Easey 8.

A few 17 lbers Shermans were trailed at Aberdeen IIRC but the decision was made to stick with the 76mm.

US Army Ord. screwed up in their testing making the assumption that German armor plate was essentially the same as US had in the Sherman.

Not so much...the German plate was tougher and the the 76mm had a lot less success against it in theater than Ike was briefed they should have.
Needless to say Ike was pissed!