Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors Need advice - issue with primer in 300 Savage reloads - 1st time reloading

Hey Guys

After much research, study and practice- I've finished my 1st batch of 300 Savage re-reloads...But...

Primers look funny after shooting



The three on the left are factory Remington Core-Lokt 150 gn. rounds

The two on the right are my reloads

All shot fron 1930's "G" model 99 - all shot were very accurate...

Used Reloader-15 with Rx Used - all power charges were measured one at a time....

"Hornady's 8th edition lists Reloader 15 with a 150 grain SST in the 300 Savage
with a starting charge of 37.2 gr. @2300 FPS to a maximum load of 43.1 grains @ 2700 FPS."

Bullet 150gn Nosler Ballstic Tip

Remington Primer

Reloader 15 - 37.5 gn

Trim length: 1.860

COL: 2.600

Is this an issue with primer - this is my first batch to reloading !! so go easy on me...

Is 37.5 gn of Reloader 15 too hot....


Thanks Guys

Chris

Your two handloads on the right show primer "cratering" which tends to be a sign of high pressure. Did you chronograph your loads? They should be the same primer as the factory loads, so soft primers aren't the issue.

Thanks

I dont have a chrono - so i started with a "what I thought" would be a safe light load

but i sure cratered those primers...

Anybody have a safer recipe for next time...

now i am worried about R-15 for my 250-3000 ammo that is my real project...

Did they extract easily.I can't figure out how a starting load could crater like that unless you were too deep,but it sounds like if anything you seated shallow.Are you using digital scales? If so. Maybe the battery is causing inaccurate reading.

Thanks

They extracted very easily - noticed no difference from the first three rounds...

Trimmed to exact length - seated bullet to exact overall length..

Scale is Hormady digital scale with a/c power - calibrated before and again half way thru the twenty rounds loaded....

This was practice - so checked things over and over again to build confidence in my accuracy...

I have a balance scale that came with my Lee Classic Equipment set - I will check scale against the balance next time...good point about inaccurate reading...

is shooting those remaining 18 round dangerous for the gun or should I pull the bullets and start over...

Thanks

I would pull them,and weigh the charge on your balance scale..It may just be me,but your primers don't look too flat.Mine usually look a little flatter than factory loads,but I don't get crater primers..Some body in large rifle reloading can probably help you..I'm fairly new at loading myself.

Not sure I know what you mean by "primer don't look too flat"

Flat before or after shooting?

After shooting..Caused by the force of the shell being forced up against the bolt during firing..

Post this in the Gunwriter's forum.

I don't know what to tell you about the cratering. I'd agree with the observation about the primer not looking too flat. In my own reloads, I've observed that the primers tend to flatten out around the edges as pressures go up (the rounded shoulder of the primer is kinda squared-off).

If you are going to be getting into reloading, you need a chronograph. Monitoring velocities is the best way to monitor pressures, in my opinion.

I am curious as to how long you've been reloading and if you've ever spent time talking with and learning from someone with experience in reloading. Knowing what a flattened primer is and what causes it is pretty basic.

Assuming you measured your charge correctly, I'd step it up.

Chris...

The "puckering" around the edges of the firing pin indentation in the primer is what is called "cratering". However, I notice that your primers still have "rounded" edges around the outside diameter of the primer and the face of your reloaded primers aren't "flatten" or don't have
"tooling marks" on the primers from the face of the bolt "crushing" into the face of the primer (due to high chamber pressure) as they normally would have if you've got high chamber pressures.

Therefore, I'd guess that what your have there is a case of SOFT primer material which craters, but isn't "flattened" which usually indicates SOFT primer metal which craters easily... even under relatively low chamber pressure.

I've had that happen with some, but not ALL the different lots of Remington primers when I was using them, too... which is why I only use Winchester or CCI standard primers now.

When chamber pressures get REALLY "high", the firing pin indentation becomes an outward "post-like" tip which means there is so great a chamber pressure that the pressure inside the cartridge case pushes the primer's face material out into the firing pin hole in the face of the bolt. At that point, you usually also get difficult extraction of the cartridge case from out of the rifle's chamber. I.E. the bolt-handle may go "up", but pulling the bolt back is either difficult or almost impossible.

If you get "tips" of the face of the primer protruding into the firing pin hole in the bolt-face, then you usually experiencing VERY dangerous and extremely high chamber pressures close to what the factory calls "Blue Pill Load" which are in the 80,000 psi range and very close to causing major damage to the rifle's chamber or even causing the rifle's barrel to came apart.

Chamber pressures in some "hot" magnum cartridges reach near or into the 65,000 psi range, so you can easily see what something in the 80,000 psi range is dangerous. Chamber pressures in standard loads in cartridges like the .30/06 or .308 Winchester are normally in the 50,000 psi to 55,000 psi range.

In truth, the ONLY way to be sure of a rifle's chamber pressure is with pressure gauges attached to the outside of the rifle's chamber's area. This is, of course, not usually possible for anyone less than ballistic experts in ballistic testing laboratories.

That said, most of us who hand-load look at the cartridge's primers as an indicator of pressure, but of course, in the case of soft primer material, that "test" isn't valid... and I believe THIS is what you're experiencing with your reloads.

In my case of "cratering" Remington primers, I was shooting for accuracy off bench-rest with my heavy barreled Sako in .222 caliber... and the loads weren't even close to "maximum book loads", but my primers looked very much like your hand-loaded primers look... "puckered" around the area where the firing pin "punched" the primer, but the primers were not flattened (like your's aren't flattened, either) as they would have been had the chamber pressure been high.

I believe you'd be "ok" to shoot the rest of those rounds you've reloaded, but if you question whether or not you should, then DON'T. ANY time you question if you should or should not do someting... that should throw up the "red flag" for you meaning you should NOT do it !~!~! Always... ALWAYS... ALWAYS go for the SAFE side when reloading ammo.

Jus' my 2�...


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

Here's what I posted at the other thread:



I'd agree with the comment about possibly setting shoulders back too much. 37.5gr is a mild load, I've run over 40 in my .300 Savages.

With a set of headspace gauges and a pair of calipers, I like to adjust the sizer die so it only pushes the shoulder back about .002-.003". That assures easy chambering without leaving cases too sloppy. Hornady sells these:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/47...space-gage-5-bushing-set-with-comparator

If you hit a dead end then PM me and perhaps we can meet at the range. I'm on the west side of Houston. I could then bring my gauge - and chronograph - and could measure what you have.

I have had primers appear vary similar with my "mild" loads. Need a chronograph. I do not think it is a sign of high pressure.

Thanks Guys for all the comments:

Longbeardking is correct have reloaded exactly (20) Savage 300 rounds and fired only two - I am completely inexperienced...

I have never known anyone that reloaded ammo before and only got interested after lucking into an early 99 in 250-3000 and set out to learn about reloading .

I got my equipment about 10 months ago and have been reading and watching youtube videos about equipment and the whole process this whole time...

after months of practice measuring charges and setting up dyes and gathering materials...

This was my careful first reloading attempt and now I'm learning about the "forensic examination" of primers

This reloading seems like a very intellectual pursuit and I am looking forward to years of trying to figure it out...

I am a very careful person and thank Longbeardking for driving home a "this is not something to be playing with" warning and I hear him loud and clear...

Thanks Guys - I will keep y'all posted as to how this turns out...

Chris

Looks like you're doing fine so far. Had to teach myself how to reload also. Ask questions when in doubt.

Precisely. Get yourself several reloading manuals. Don't rely on one. Until you gain knowledge in the technique, start at the minimum listed load and work up at .5 grain increments. I usually load only 5 rounds per .5 grains. I look for pressure signs after EACH round. I did NOT have a chronograph until, 1993. At that point I had been reloading since 1972. I relied on FPS info from the manuals. It wasn't until my wife got picked for her first moose hunt that I wanted to know exactly what my (her) velocity was so I could figure out her EXACT muzzle energy was.

I prefer the Lyman manuals because Lyman doesn't produce bullets or powder and they are not trying to sell you something through published data. Judging from some of the yahoos I see on utube that would be my LAST choice for information. Although I must admit that some of it is entertaining.

I agree with soft material in the primers you pictured. Assuming that all rounds were fired from the same rifle all rounds would show the craters, not just your reloads. Sometimes your firing pin hole in the breech block is oversized and primer material will flow around the firing pin also showing a crater. I don't believe your rifle has this condition.

Good luck and ask lots of questions.

Dear Chris Chris:

That is not an over pressurized reload.

I'd bet on a re-sizing die set a little too deep, a soft primer, as others suggest, too much headspace in the rifle and/or a weak firing pin spring.

Take a look at the primers from the side of the cartridge, and see if your reloaded cartridges show that the primer has backed out from the case head. Compare them to the factory cartridges.

I'll bet those primers in your reloads have backed out over .005".

If the primers have backed out, then you need to have a gunsmith check the headspace on your rifle. If the headspace checks out, then move your resizing die up a full turn, and see if the re-sized case will chamber in your rifle. If the case doesn't chamber, then move the die in by 1/8 turns until the case does chamber without a crush.

I just barely re-size my 300 brass for my 1953 Savage 99R, since I shoot the cartridges only in that rifle.

Good luck.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

I started handloading in 1967, and boy did I make a lot of dumb mistakes. My Dad and I learned together, inspired by myths, old wive's tales, hearsay, and just plain ignorance as written in the gun rags of the time. The manuals all seemed to say something different, and none of them jived with the wisdom handed down by the old guys hanging out at the gun shop. I found that your best tool is the one lying between your ears- develop a sense for what is truth and what is BS, and work carefully and cautiously. Tens of thousands of pounds PSI and hot gasses at thousands of degrees ain't nothing to mess with- and all that stands between that stuff and the outside world (including your head) is a pretty thin layer of brass and a primer.

11� months out of the year pretty much all I shoot are greatly reduced practice loads generating about half of the SAAMI recommended pressure. There's no reason on god's green earth to run a gun at its maximum performance level every time you pull the trigger. As for the cratered primers, I get them now and then with my mild loads. Do I worry about them? No, but I do address the issue and mind my sizing/primer selection, and sloppy fit of firing pins in their holes (which happens a lot more than you might think).

I agree with Yalie. I think you may have set the shoulder back a little causing a headspace issue. Back your resizing die out a 1/2 turn and resize one of the factory cases, see if it chambers, if it does reload it and shoot it and see how the primer looks. If it doesn't chamber screw the resizing die in 1/8 turn at a time until it does. I mark the neck and shoulder with a black magic marker when I set up for the first time. You can clearly see how far the case enters the sizing die.

Mike