Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Two Tipped TSX's recovered in a row

What cartridge?

Can't say that I have had any slow kills with TSX bullets, pull the trigger and that's that.

I don't know about JB's data, but my data just isn't telling me a damn thing useful about how far a deer goes after it's hit.

For example, the last five killed with Barnes T-EZ muzzle loader bullets. Four hit the ground where they stood. No CNS hits. The one that made it fifty yards or so was hit through the lower part of each scapula and from the wound evidence is the one I would have bet the most money on being dead in it's tracks. All five had completely wrecked chest contents, hearts loose in the chest and lungs turned into red soup.

I killed three with Barnes CF rounds last year. Two were .223 53 grain TSXs one was a .270 110 TTSX. All three had hearts loose in the chest and wrecked lungs. The two with the .223 went 100 feet. The .270 deer went about 70 yards. Where the .270 deer stood was a handful of heart, lung, rib and muscle tissue.

I generally shoot them the same way and the results vary. About half drop into their shadow. The rest run some, but it's usually not far. The wounds all look about the same to me, and from looking at the holes in Bambi I wouldn't begin to try to guess what it was shot with. Sometimes little bullets make big holes, sometimes big bullets make little holes.

The deer I clip the brain stem on invariably drop right there. The deer I shoot through/behind the shoulders have no respect for caliber or velocity and do what they do despite my intent or wishes. I haven't shot a seer with anything but a Barnes, GMX or E-Tip in a long time. The only difference I can say for certain exists between monos and C&C bullets is that monos tend to make smaller holes in the hide and tallow layers and I am pretty sure that makes for lesser blood trails.

I agree. The internal destruction with TSX/TTSX is massive and IME kills as quickly as any bullet out there on average. Between myself and friends and family that I hunt with, we are near or over hundred animals

Monos kill quickly with boring regularity in my experience.

They do in mine too. It just sometimes takes longer. And the average distance the 3 lung-shot deer went that Miles mentions comes out to 45.3 yards, which just about exactly matches my statistics.

As for massive internal damage, I have seen quite a bit from TSX's and other monos in SOME instances, and in other instances not so much. As noted above, a lot depends on muzzle velocity. And I have yet to see the internal damage from ANY mono come anywhere near to what happens with a Berger VLD started at 2800-3100 fps at typical hunting ranges. Everything is relative.

The last animal my wife killed this fall with the 100 TTSX at 3150 fps from her NULA .257 Roberts (the same rifle and load she used on all the others, including a cow elk) was a 3-year-old mule deer buck. She talked to within slightly less than 100 yards, and put the bullet about a third of the way up the body, tight behind the shoulder, with the buck standing as near perfectly broadside as they get.

At the shot the buck just started walking off through the sagebrush, in no hurry. There wasn't any indication he was hit, no jump or twitch or anything else, and while Eileen was very sure of her hold, decided to shoot again, with the deer now quartering away along the hillside. Apparently that bullet deflected on some sagebrush, because when he dropped (just about 50 yards from where he was shot) there was only one hole directly through the chest, broadside, exactly where she'd aimed the first time.

There was a little blood where the buck was hit, but no spray of lungs or other tissue. While the lungs were collapsed from a good-sized hole, and the blood vessels on the top of the heart messed up, the damage wasn't exceptional. I have seen more from TSX's, but this looked typical--and I've seen a hell of lot more not just from VLD's but many lead-cored bullets, including Sierras, Hornady Interlocks and Nosler Ballistic Tips--as well as quicker kills.

If you guys can explain the physics of why a bullet that doesn't shed any weight destroys more tissue than those that spin off multiple shards, I'd be very interested in hearing it.

My experience with TSX bullets have been that they kill extremely well, as well as any that I have used or seen used. I have been hunting since I was in grade school and will soon be 64. I don't doubt your experience at all, but it does not mirror mine. With the people that I have hunted with and my own kills we must be at 100 or more and all agree that they kill extremely fast. I hit a doe very far back several years ago and she was down in less than 10 steps from where she was hit. No bone was hit, blood every where.

In my expereince once the wound channel is large enough, a larger one will not be fatal any faster. In other words if a quarter size hole through the heart brings the blood pressure to zero quickly, then a silver dollar size hole will not be fatal any faster.

I personally don't think they do produce more damage than anything else. When I used to shoot C&Cs sometimes I did produce really nasty holes.

But... I am not at all sure that they do not produce pretty well equal damage over the longer run.

Of the four that dropped in their tracks last week, the one am butchering today had all but an inch of about 1/2 the diameter of the onside humerus just plain gone, and the remnants of the bone were pretty well reduced to BB sized gravel throughout the wound channel of that leg. I am sure some of that bone was lost in the chest, but the off side hole only had a few chips. All four of these were hit ahead of the crease. All four the lungs were just red soup, and the remnants of the heart were loose.

I will grant this regarding them, This was just plain killing to get rid of some of the overpopulation in my neighborhood. As such I wanted them down now instead of ending in front of one or another of my neighbor's dining room windows at supper time. And, there is some difference between a T-EZ and a TSX or TTSX. But, the holes were absolutely consistent with a whole bunch of them I have killed with X, TSX and TTSX bullets.

If you take all 8 deer I described above, the average distance traveled after the hit is 70 feet or 23.33 yards if I added them all correctly in my head. Still not a number that means anything to me. The three that I shot with the CF guns I was killing but conserving meat The five I shot with the ML rifle I wanted them all on the ground ASAP. The CF rifle kills were pretty typical of my experience with monos and deer shot with the intent to conserve meat excepting those I clip the brain stem on. Almost without exception The heart(remnants)is loose in the chest and the lungs are red soup. That, from any angle I put the bullet in. The deer I have done that to with C&Cs in the past were about as variable in the distance they ran.

Off hand, I cannot think of a deer I wanted on the ground right now with a mono that didn't comply. I do not shoot real long range, but my average runs about 130ish, which for Minnesota is probably more than twice the average. I do not think my experience is representative of many deer hunters. I have not had to be concerned about GETTING a deer. I have been able to pick and choose for a long time. I frequently watch a deer for an hour or more before I decide it looks tasty enough. I prefer shooting nice fat fawns or yearlings because I only shoot for my table. That more than likely skews what happens because the deer tend to be smaller.

My experience may well be distorted too, because I have seen a lot of deer hit with C&C bullets run a long ways. That includes deer where the bullets deflected of a rib and the deer went a hell of a distance before I stopped it. Something think should be considered as part of the C&C experience. Something which I have never seen a mono do which is part of that experience.

JB,I witnessed almost the same thing on a WT buck last week.

My brother shooting a 243 with 85 grain TSX's that I load for him, shot a buck at a ranged 270 yards. At the shot, the buck showed zero reaction. It sprinted 150 yards, up a slight hill and into the timber and out of sight.

My initial thought was it was a clean miss. My brother said the shot felt good except for the fact that the buck had just started to step forward when the trigger broke.

We had perfect snow for tracking and went over to take a look. Zero sign of any hit and anything at all would have been easy to see. We followed the tracks into the timber 75 yards and still nothing. By now we had probably gone close to 250 yards and saw nothing to indicate a hit.

We went on another 20 yards in the heavy timber and there lay a very dead buck. The bullet had just knicked the very back of the lungs a bit above center chest and exited.

I fairly new with using the 85 TSX and have never seen a deer make it this far with lung damage. Part of me wonders if using a bullet that fragmented more would have done more damage on this fringe hit and shortened the trailing. On dry ground, with no snow, I'm afraid this buck would have been a tough recovery.

Lonny,

My experience is bullets that fragment more do kill quicker when placed further back in the lungs. In fact when using Berger VLD's I normally aim a little further from the shoulder, say a hand's width, on deer-sized game, because they do so much more damage to the vital organs.

The last animal I shot with them is a good example, a pronghorn buck that was angling a little toward me at 162 yards. I put the 140 6.5 that hand's width behind the shoulder, and it exited the rear of the ribs on the far side. The buck went 10 paces. I've seen a few deer-sized animals lung-shot with VLD's go farther, but 25 yards is normally about the limit.

jwp,

I would agree, but only IF the bullet hits the middle of both lungs and the area around the top of the heart. If the shot isn't so perfectly placed, then a larger wound channel usually makes a noticeable difference.

One of the most astonishing kills I've seen with Berger VLD's was a big red stag shot with a 115-grain .25 at about 200 yards. The stag (as in Lonny's example) moved just at the shot, and the bullet landed at the rear of the rib cage. The stag started walking off and I was just about to try to help out the hunter with my own rifle, when the stag keeled over dead, after going around 15 yards. The bullet hit the front edge of the liver and the very rear edge of the right lung.

I hit that doe very far back and fully expected a long tracking job. Blood blown out the exit was less than 10 steps to the doe. The monos have killed exceptionally well for us.



The 7RM is the smallest we shoot. I use either a 300 win or a 30-06. Want to take one with the 6.8 soon.

Miles,

Generally, I have seen monos of whatever type kill similarly to other bullets, but there have been a number of exceptions, even with bullets that centered the top of the heart and both lungs. While there has been some overlap in damage from various bullets, the average internal damage from monos hasn't been nearly as much as from Berger VLD's. In fact every hunter who'd never seen them used before commented on the amount of damage.

I also can't recall a C&C bullet being deflected noticeably on deer, whether from a rib or anything else, but have seen some come apart completely on shoulders. In fact, the very few bullets I've seen deflected noticeably on big game were "premiums", and all hit heavy bone animals from cow elk size up.

I also don't rely only on my experience when making these comments. As noted earlier, some bullet companies do extensive testing of bullets on animals, and every test I've seen came to the conclusion that fragmenting bullets killed measurably quicker on shots not involving shoulder or CNS placement.

I also know a lot of outfitters. One here in Montana primarily guides for deer, including a lot of whitetails on riverbottoms. His hunters take dozens every year, and he's been outfitting for over 30 years. He absolutely hates monolithic bullets, as well as most other premiums, though does grudgingly admit Partitions and AccuBonds work "okay." this is because e's had to chase down so many deer hit with bullets that don't do much damage. Now, no doubt his hunters don't always hit deer nearly as perfectly as you do, but even for his own hunting this guy prefers Sierra GameKings of at least moderate weight for the caliber, and suggests them in his brochure.

I know I shouldn't care all that much, but I get into these bullet threads. I've paid close attention the last couple years, and I've noticed that when hunting, the bullet is barely an afterthought when looking at downed animals. Other than at that moment, there are 1000 other things that have my attention. I know that it all comes down to confidence, but I also remember when I didn't know and didn't care about differences in bullets, and I still killed game. Taking out a youngster for his first deer the last 2 years, I was reminded of that. Neither knowing nor caring, these boys still made good shots after doing everything else right.

Bullet performance takes up about 25% of my hunt thinking while in the 11 months of not big-game hunting, and less than 1% in that month of season. I've still not seen enough difference in how the various bullets perform terminally to say that one is ideal while another is poor. Not in 30 years. I've not carried a boomer though, and maybe that makes a difference. I've aimed for heart/lungs always, and maybe that makes a difference. I haven't taken questionable(for me) shots, and maybe that makes a difference.

Yeah, I know what you mean... Riley only weighs about 160 and uses 80gr TTSX for most stuff. He likes the penetration...



This moose actually caught one of those 80grainers...




Same caribou's heart at about 340 yards.


Some times he shoots heavier bullets, too.


I use them too, but I outweigh most of what I shoot, too.


[img]http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a146/24quarts/Jeffs%20Bear%202012/jeffandbear.jpg[/img]

Both of the last two brown bears had complete pass-throughs with TSXs, end-to-end.

What caliber did you use, Art?

I used the 270gr TSX in the 375AI. On the second bear from the end I shot once lengthwise and it was then shot by Paul 4 times broadside at less range with the 375 and 300gr Accubonds, and only the lengthwise TTSX made it all the way through. All four Accubonds stayed in the bear.

On the last bear I had 4 complete end-to-end pass throughs on an unhappy bear. He also got 3 equal shot with the 338 and 210gr TTSXs.

For bears especially I want large gaping wounds!

Sweet Eileen--the Buck Whisperer! The secret's out now.

She's killed some animals at 400+ yards, but prefers getting as close as possible!

Gee, did you think I was talking to you? And did I say somewhere that I don't like TSX's? I'm talking to people who shoot 150lb whitetails and are venomously adamant that you need a TSX or you might as well stay home.