|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 18,353 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 18,353 Likes: 2 |
I've got a basic question. I only watched the vid once, so bear with me if I'm off base relative to the incident.
If an officer tells me that I'm under arrest and to put my hands behind my back and I don't immediately comply (I'm mean within a second) am I resisting arrest?
Garner certainly wasn't getting violent and was merely acting incredulous. The guy grabbing him from behind didn't seem to give him much time to comply.
As to the fact that he said he couldn't breath, pretty clear that he was in considerable distress and felt as though he couldn't due to the fact that he died moments later.
IMHO the cops over reacted. And FWIW, I generally support cops.
Last edited by Steve; 12/04/14.
Carpe' Scrotum
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
honestly I don't know. it wouldn't even matter lawful or unlawful - its about the process of subduing the suspect.
clearly no one intended to put that man in a position where he had a heart attack, but homicide isn't defined by intent, but actions or lack of actions
So do you have a policy that says once we are in the process of subduing you and until you are subdued, whatever is happening to you is irrelevant?
its a tough call in my mind.
A jury, lawyers, and judges only want to hear facts. Not conclusions. Only facts. They use those facts to determine if an officer acted reasonably. And yes it can be a tough call. That's why after those calls are made, a jury of your peers analyze them to determine if you conducted yourself in accordance of the law and acted reasonably. Hypotheticals and pre-drawn conclusions have no place in a courtroom. That's why it's a beautiful, wonderful, warm, loving place of wonderfulness. Travis Travis, Remember, she was on a Grand Jury once and they voted. Then, the mean old prosecutor made them rethink their vote, twice. Instead of being done with their civic duty and having the balls to stand by their vote, she and the others caved in, committed a miscarriage of justice, and then just gave the DA whatever they asked for. Cowards don't care about facts or evidence; they just want to be left alone.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 26,524
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 26,524 |
So do you have a policy that says once we are in the process of subduing you and until you are subdued, whatever is happening to you is irrelevant your fault for not complying with instructions?
fixed that's a pretty steep price to pay for not wanting to be arrested, even for the 32nd time. But he had every opportunity to make change. Multiple meanings exist. All are correct.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 23,583 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 23,583 Likes: 3 |
but homicide isn't defined by intent, but actions or lack of actions
Soooooo....why exactly do we have First Degree Homicide, Second Degree Homicide, Manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter etc etc....? as I understand it Homicide is the generic term to describe when one person kills another person, regardless if it was intentional, unintentional, pre-meditated or not-pre-meditated. Murder, however, deals with the malicious intent to commit a killing. could be wrong but that is my understanding
have you paid your dues, can you moan the blues, can you bend them guitar strings
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 11,923
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 11,923 |
When in high school i was boxing/wrestling with a good friend. Joe out weighted me by at least 150 pounds. I got in a lucky hit on his breast bone and he fell,started saying he couldn't breathe.
Being concerned i got off him and helped him up. what happened next was he hit me and i think i lost breath for quite a while. And he clobbered me real good.
I don't blame him for tricking me,i learned a lesson. Could the same thing have happened with the cops in NY?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 26,524
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 26,524 |
KWFA, Since we are not the GJ, I will offer my conjecture.
You are blaming the cops, when the medics are the ones that were "let go".
So, let go of your hate, and resort to the duck theory.
There you may find the reason for the death......
And for the record, I was a medic as well.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Travis,
Remember, she was on a Grand Jury once and they voted. Then, the mean old prosecutor made them rethink their vote, twice. Instead of being done with their civic duty and having the balls to stand by their vote, she and the others caved in, committed a miscarriage of justice, and then just gave the DA whatever they asked for.
Cowards don't care about facts or evidence; they just want to be left alone.
That may be. I was only trying to add to the discussion for those who may be confused about why there was no indictment in this case. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
but homicide isn't defined by intent, but actions or lack of actions
Soooooo....why exactly do we have First Degree Homicide, Second Degree Homicide, Manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter etc etc....? as I understand it Homicide is the generic term to describe when one person kills another person, regardless if it was intentional, unintentional, pre-meditated or not-pre-meditated. Murder, however, deals with the malicious intent to commit a killing. could be wrong but that is my understanding Please, answer his question.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 14,076
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 14,076 |
I've got a basic question. I only watched the vid once, so bear with me if I'm off base relative to the incident.
If an officer tells me that I'm under arrest and to put my hands behind my back and I don't immediately (I'm mean within a second) am I resisting arrest?
Garner certainly wasn't getting violent and was merely acting incredulous. The guy grabbing him from behind didn't seem to give him much time to comply.
As to the fact that he said he couldn't breath, pretty clear that he was in considerable distress and felt as though he couldn't due to the fact that he died moments later.
IMHO the cops over reacted. And FWIW, I generally support cops. Correct he was not violent but he was pulling away and resisting none the less. Had the officers continued to try to make the arrest without using force he could have easily turned violent. They made a decision based on their experience as police officers, I can't condemn them for that.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
KWFA, Since we are not the GJ, I will offer my conjecture.
You are blaming the cops, when the medics are the ones that were "let go".
So, let go of your hate, and resort to the duck theory.
There you may find the reason for the death......
And for the record, I was a medic as well. Yeah, but yelling "F'K the MEDICS" doesn't have the same panache to it.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 19,269
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 19,269 |
All homicides mean a killing. All murders are homicides,not all homicides are murders. People die every day of sudden exertions. High School football players do. Undiagnosed condition of some sort. If one has ever had to take down a full grown man esprcially one the size of Garner, they would know just how difficult it is to do if they ain't cooperating. Someone somewhere is going to die from that encounter and nobody can make the call as to which one. It all comes down to legality.
Be afraid,be VERY VERY afraid ad triarios redisse My Buddy eh76 speaks authentic Frontier Gibberish!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 23,583 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 23,583 Likes: 3 |
KWFA, Since we are not the GJ, I will offer my conjecture.
You are blaming the cops, when the medics are the ones that were "let go".
So, let go of your hate, and resort to the duck theory.
There you may find the reason for the death......
And for the record, I was a medic as well. its not hate - if that was the case, I'd have a problem with Wilson in Ferguson - and I don't think Wilson should have even gone to the Grand Jury. I'm not arguing the arrest or the cops taking him down - I just have a problem with the I can't breathe part, even understanding that cops see this frequently from people complaining about cuffs to tight or whatever.
have you paid your dues, can you moan the blues, can you bend them guitar strings
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
If an officer tells me that I'm under arrest and to put my hands behind my back and I don't immediately comply (I'm mean within a second) am I resisting arrest?
There is no time limit. Again. The totality of the circumstances would all be weighed to determine whether the officer's actions were reasonable, or if they were unreasonable. The video does not tell the whole story by any means but most Use of Force Instructors would raise an eyebrow at how that arrest was handled. Not saying it was wrong, as I don't know all the evidence of the case. But it is certainly questionable. But (obviously) legal in the state of NY. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,307 Likes: 2
Campfire Oracle
|
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,307 Likes: 2 |
" The I can't breathe" part...as item pointed out a few pages ago is what they say right before they try to kill you.
You need to spend a little time on the street.
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 23,583 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 23,583 Likes: 3 |
" The I can't breathe" part...as item pointed out a few pages ago is what they say right before they try to kill you.
You need to spend a little time on the street. or apparently right before they have a heart attack
have you paid your dues, can you moan the blues, can you bend them guitar strings
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 14,076
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 14,076 |
but homicide isn't defined by intent, but actions or lack of actions
Soooooo....why exactly do we have First Degree Homicide, Second Degree Homicide, Manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter etc etc....? I could be off base here but the definition of homicide does not change but the degree (first, second, ect...) define intent.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
" The I can't breathe" part...as item pointed out a few pages ago is what they say right before they try to kill you.
You need to spend a little time on the street. or apparently right before they have a heart attack Okay, idiot, how EXACTLY is the cop supposed to know the difference? And, which do you think is really the more common? Further, why do you think the EMTs were called? WTF is their job?
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,307 Likes: 2
Campfire Oracle
|
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,307 Likes: 2 |
I hate to repeat myself, but for you I will. You need to spend some time on the street. As hard as you may find it to believe, besides assault, theft, and all other forms of malfeasance, sometimes these people lie ...even under duress.
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 14,076
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 14,076 |
or apparently right before they have a heart attack
Yeah, bad time to have a heart attack no doubt, but that ain't on the officers.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
What, no answer? but homicide isn't defined by intent, but actions or lack of actions
Soooooo....why exactly do we have First Degree Homicide, Second Degree Homicide, Manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter etc etc....? as I understand it Homicide is the generic term to describe when one person kills another person, regardless if it was intentional, unintentional, pre-meditated or not-pre-meditated. Murder, however, deals with the malicious intent to commit a killing. could be wrong but that is my understanding Please, answer his question.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
|
|
|
|
566 members (160user, 257 roberts, 1lessdog, 1_deuce, 12344mag, 10Glocks, 60 invisible),
2,427
guests, and
1,270
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,194,363
Posts18,527,223
Members74,031
|
Most Online11,491 Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|