Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Rolling Block Reloading - working brass too much?

I've never reformed enough brass of substantial dimensions in the neck to know how much the neck thickness may increase when it is downsized in diameter.

My guess would be that the neck would simply lengthen and retain thickness, although I'm not a metallurgist.

Unless the consensus based on experience says it won't work, I'll try anything if for no other reason then to add knowledge to the collective

Nor have I ever tried it with a case in that class.

I have occasionally made .300 Savage brass from the longer .308 cases, and it did reduce neck clearance, but that may have been a fluke of the .308 case design.

In a word, no.

This brings back the memory of Ken Howell's words in the big blue book about heroic actions and the value therein of forming brass into new cases. Question boils down to where you are, where you want to be and is it worth the trouble?

Sizing a case will result in somewhat thicker necks and that is the reason neck reamers are out there for the loons amongst us. To what degree, I would not speculate. I would think that reaching for a neck wall .007" (total .014") increase is a bit of a stretch. That leads to what basic brass is out there that might get you into the ballpark. I dunno.

One can paper patch a bullet to increase diameter outside of norms, but I'd have to question the likelihood of that leading to a successful conclusion with the scenario due to throat geometry likely incompatible with that application. One way to properly evaluate that is a hammer cast of the chamber/throat area, at which point you will have a very good idea of the dims you are dealing with. There is an excellent tutorial on that process here:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?218414-FYI-This-is-how-I-do-a-pound-cast

Another idea which may have merit is to have some custom cases made. Sometime back Rocky Mountain Cartridges in Cody, WY was a good place for that exercise. The business was sold and I have no idea where it is at present, or if it is still in business.

Best of luck regardless,

Dan

Now here is where ignorance rears its ugly head. I have read many posts of Greg's incredible work, so I will ask a really dumb question:

Can the chamber be sleeved in the throat area?

Rebarrel or rebore it.

Dunno I'd call that a dumb question myself, but would imagine it implies questions and solutions only a machinist can address.

Blasphemy.

What type of die are you using to resize the cases?

Common sense. Yeah, that might be blasphemous.

The only cartridge drawing I've found for an 8x58R is in Dr. Howell's book, and it's for the Sauer version, which is a lot skinnier than a .45-70 base dimension

If one had 50 or 100 barrels to do, the cost of the tooling might be amortized.

...as a one off, I'd not touch that idea, though.

GTC

I'll do it.

I've got a Dremel and I know how to use it.

I've had some experience with reloading the Swede rolling blocks that were rebarreled to the 8x58 Rimmed Danish (8x58RD) cartridge. Ingwe and ET may recall my having at the TN hog soiree last March, and perforating a piggie.

Here's a cartridge drawing (Dimensions are in millimeters. Sorry):
.

.
I don't have a chamber drawing on file. Maybe later.

Yes, the chamber neck is considerably larger than usual on modern rifles. Outside neck diameter of my loaded rounds is about 0.348 inches; for fired cases it is 0.365 inches. This means the brass is being worked a lot with each loading.

I use Prvi Partizan 8x56R Hungarian Mannlicher brass from Grafs; it's pretty tough and a lot cheaper at 65 cents than the brass sold by custom makers. I generally get at least a dozen reloads before neck splits start to appear.

(Unfortunately Graf's is sold out. RWE, send me a PM if your brass is used up before Grafs gets another shipment of 8x56R.)

The neck being short by 2mm doesn't seem to matter a lot. I fireform the 8x56R cases with Cream of Wheat and 6 grains of Red Dot.

I have neck sized only so far. Lee 8mm Lebel dies work for neck sizing and for seating. The die can size the entire neck length without touching the case body. I size without using the decapping-neck expanding stem, and then use a Lyman 8mm M-die to expand necks and flare them just enough to take a cast bullet.

I've previously posted the photo below showing the RB-slain swine. The case I used was on its 23rd reload; it split firing the pig bullet.

--Bob
.

.

Bob, I recall that rifle, and your wonderful long rifle, too.

The .50-110 case is out, too big at the base. The .45-90 is long enough and the right base dimension. The rim would need a little work. But that probably won't fix the excess neck clearance. If I had one handy I'd be tempted to cut a 3 1/4" basic case to length, and check the brass wall thickness. Even if it's right it won't be an easy case forming job.

Good grief gravy!


The hungarian was on my list of brass options.

I may also do DD's hammer cast, time permitting on Thursday - my only evening this week without a church or school obligation.

Bullshooter, if you don't mind, what bullet and load were you using for the pork critter?

What's the inlay on the stock?

Using 8x56R Austro-Hungarian Mannlicher brass seems the easiest solution to the problem of brass availability. There are two, possibly three negatives to using it. As already noted, it's 2mm short.

The 8x56R case also is a bit smaller in diameter than the 8x58RD case at the head just in front of the rim. When fired in the RB, this can often result in asymmetrical unsightly bulge in front of the web. It's harmless, but unattractive. So, when fireforming, it is usual to wrap a strip of thin tape around the case just in front of the rim. This will center the case in the chamber. When fired, the case will bulge slightly, but equally all around. The tape should be about 1/8" wide. The tape is discarded after fireforming.

Another possible problem is the shoulder of the 8x56R may be just a smidge too large in diameter for the Swede chamber. Here's a drawing of the 8x56R Austrian cartridge:
.

.
In theory, a max 8x56R cartridge may not fit in a min 8x58RD chamber. For a gunboards discussion of this possibility, I made a drawing, showing where the interference might occur:
.

.
However, new 8x56R cases have dropped right into the chamber in my trials with four different Swedes, requiring no pressure to seat the rim fully into the chamber. I suspect the Swede chambers were usually generously reamed.

A comparison of rim diameters of the two cases shows the 8x56R to be slightly less than the 8x58RD, by about 0.15mm. This would only make a difference in fit of the extractor, and I've had no problems with any of the Swedes I've used.

The Swede RB chambers vary a bit, and cases fired in one RB may be too large to fit in another one.

45-90 brass can be formed to 8x58RD, but that requires a full length die along with rim turning, annealing, and liberal applications of Imperial Sizing Wax. 45-70 brass will likewise form, but apparently comes out 4mm short. I think Buffalo stretches their 45-70 brass somehow, which thins it, and produces neck failures earlier.

Some Swede RB shooters have used 7.62x54R Russian cases, fireforming to fit. The resulting brass is still shorter than cases formed from the 8x56R. The advantage is ready availability of the Russian case.

More will follow in a bit.
--Bob

I noticed the ones I received were dead on the 58mm.

How thick or thin is a standard brass neck these days?

.45 Basic stuff should get you a thicker walled case, as DD mentioned.

Me, I'd size fat to the throat as will chamber/extract and maybe see if the caster will seat without sizing, yet hold the pill.

Lotsa stuff to try, but they need tried before surgery!

right.

Of course, I just realized I fat fingered my mould and received a .321 diameter rather than the .326 I wanted to get.

Looks like I'll have more delay while I swap that out.

(I am cursing but you just don't hear it)