|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,041
Campfire Tracker
|
OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,041 |
Understood Shane  by letter of the law dude may very well be phouced. But damn, hard to swallow. I can tell you I'll not shed a tear for the departed. Point well taken. The homeowner may have been rightfully convicted, but on the other hand, little hard to argue the dumb [bleep] (burglar) didn't have it coming. You burg people's homes and you assume one helluva lot of risk---including the risk that one of those homes might be armed by somebody looking for an excuse to kill your punk burglar, dope-smoking ass. 
Communists: I still hate them even after they changed their name to "liberals".
____________________
My boss asked why I wasn't working. I told him I was being a democrat for Halloween.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 253
Campfire Member
|
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 253 |
Tragedy all the way around, but anyone who is concerned about preserving legitimate 2nd. amendment rights should turn their back on the shooter. This is wisdom. One of the often repeated statements of 2nd Amendment advocates is "We don't need more gun laws--just better enforcement of the ones we already have." Kaarma was pissed off because somebody broke into his garage and committed a petty crime. He was also pissed because the police didn't do what he wanted them to do. He made a plan and carried it out, and a young kid lost his life due to Kaarma's (over re-) actions. I hope he spends the rest of his life in jail, and I hope lawful, responsible gun owners applaud the courts for sending him there. ...and I hope the non- gun owning public sees us (the responsible gun owners) practicing what we preach, that is, appreciating the enforcement of the gun laws we already have.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,909 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,909 Likes: 3 |
Originally Posted By: mark shubert
It is - and that's not right.
Stay the he!! off my place if you have poor intentions!
You really see the need to murder somebody that is trying to steal from you? Murder? ! Don't steel !
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,737
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,737 |
Yep, only police are allowed to engage in entrapment without suffering a penalty. You are a moron!
My home is the "sanctuary residence" for my firearms.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348 |
Was there any evidence or claim that when the home-owner confronted the burglar, the burglar attacked or threatened the home-owner?
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,766 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,766 Likes: 1 |
not that I am aware of, but this is just from the news, bias and all.
Guns don't kill people, drivers with cell phones kill people.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 253
Campfire Member
|
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 253 |
Was there any evidence or claim that when the home-owner confronted the burglar, the burglar attacked or threatened the home-owner? No. To the contrary, four shots were fired, three in rapid succession at belt height, then a pause before the 4th was fired at head height. The movement was from right to left as the kid was trying to run out of the garage. To the point, Kaarma took time to adjust for the final, lethal shot.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,781
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,781 |
I believe that most responsible gun owners recognize if you want to set a trap and shoot, it better be at an animal. Shooting an intruder that you have gone to the trouble of making it possible for entry, with "bait" in plain sight, is not going to stand up with any jury anywhere in this country. Stand your ground has nothing to do with entrapment. Two lives have been lost or destroyed here and that is truly sad.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 17,737 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 17,737 Likes: 1 |
If I was pissin' about in someone else's garage, and they showed up, I'd expect there a good chance I'd get shot. I had no business being there, in another persons castle.
On a personal level, for me this situation falls into the old category of...play stupid games, win stupid prizes. ^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
NRA LIFE MEMBER
GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS
ESPECIALLY THE SNIPERS!
"Suppose you were an idiot And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeat myself."
-Mark Twain
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,123 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,123 Likes: 2 |
Sounds like this dumb a$$ planned this. Pretty hard to justify. You just can't shoot kids because they are stealing your stuff. The confront you, scare you, threaten you- maybe but this moron deserve this judgement.
NRA Benefactor Member
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261 |
I don't know what happened in the case exactly. But I don't know what baiting has to do with it.
Shooting for theft is either justifiable or not. The circumstances of the thefted property are irrelevant to me. I don't know all the fine points either but supposedly there had been a number of these garage thefts in the area and the police took a ho hum approach to the whole theft thing. So Kaarma set a trap for the kids by putting stuff inside the garage and leaving the garage door open to entice the kids to walk in and steal stuff usually beer. When he heard somebody in the garage he opened fire without identifying his target. According to the news reports and what has come out of the trial he supposedly bragged to his neighbors he was going to do this and allegedly was on pot at the time of the shooting. If the papers are even 1/32 right Kaarma set himself up for his own fall. The only good thing I can see with this is that with a Republican House and Senate in Montana and now a conviction it will be harder to overturn Montana's castle doctrine. I agree with this (don't faint Derb  ). What sets this case apart is that there was evidence that Khaarma (sp?) sought an opportunity for a confrontation in which he was fully armed and ready to rock. The evidence of possible baiting (deliberately leaving the garage door open and a purse inside with statements to neighbors of the plan---if in fact that was the evidence) really took the legs out from under his claim that he was in fear of his safety or that of his family. (You don't "set-up" and invite a confrontation while simultaneously claiming you're in fear of your life from that confrontation). The leftists in Montana (which is what, about half the state now?  ) want badly to do away with the Castle Doctrine, but in reality this case showed that the Castle Doctrine worked, i.e., the jury did not buy the defense argument made in reliance on the Castle Doctrine. Of course, this assumes the jury got it right, but on the facts I've been able to ferret out of the very one-sided media coverage, it appears the jury did get it right. Frankly, though, I'd have preferred a Voluntary Manslaughter conviction over deliberate murder. My .02 worth. Jordan P.S. What the &*^*&(*% you Montana boys doing letting all those libs take over your state. You boys seriously ^&%&%^'d up. Montana has always been a somewhat liberal state at least in the western part of the state. It goes all the way back to unions, miners and the copper kings. However, like every state we have a university system and like every state the system turns out liberals by the train load.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261 |
my understanding is that in MT. lethal force can only be used to defend human life. That's how I understand it too.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 27,091
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 27,091 |
I should be able to leave my doors open but I can not due to the people who would steal everything.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261 |
Was there any evidence or claim that when the home-owner confronted the burglar, the burglar attacked or threatened the home-owner? Apparently not. According to reports the home owner just open fire without identifying his target or receiving any threats from the target.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261 |
I should be able to leave my doors open but I can not due to the people who would steal everything. That's true. Doors have to locked at all times. I've had people just walk into my house before. I lock all doors at all times unless I'm going in or out. That's just the way it is.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,041
Campfire Tracker
|
|
OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,041 |
I don't know what happened in the case exactly. But I don't know what baiting has to do with it.
Shooting for theft is either justifiable or not. The circumstances of the thefted property are irrelevant to me. I don't know all the fine points either but supposedly there had been a number of these garage thefts in the area and the police took a ho hum approach to the whole theft thing. So Kaarma set a trap for the kids by putting stuff inside the garage and leaving the garage door open to entice the kids to walk in and steal stuff usually beer. When he heard somebody in the garage he opened fire without identifying his target. According to the news reports and what has come out of the trial he supposedly bragged to his neighbors he was going to do this and allegedly was on pot at the time of the shooting. If the papers are even 1/32 right Kaarma set himself up for his own fall. The only good thing I can see with this is that with a Republican House and Senate in Montana and now a conviction it will be harder to overturn Montana's castle doctrine. I agree with this (don't faint Derb ). What sets this case apart is that there was evidence that Khaarma (sp?) sought an opportunity for a confrontation in which he was fully armed and ready to rock. The evidence of possible baiting (deliberately leaving the garage door open and a purse inside with statements to neighbors of the plan---if in fact that was the evidence) really took the legs out from under his claim that he was in fear of his safety or that of his family. (You don't "set-up" and invite a confrontation while simultaneously claiming you're in fear of your life from that confrontation). The leftists in Montana (which is what, about half the state now? ) want badly to do away with the Castle Doctrine, but in reality this case showed that the Castle Doctrine worked, i.e., the jury did not buy the defense argument made in reliance on the Castle Doctrine. Of course, this assumes the jury got it right, but on the facts I've been able to ferret out of the very one-sided media coverage, it appears the jury did get it right. Frankly, though, I'd have preferred a Voluntary Manslaughter conviction over deliberate murder. My .02 worth. Jordan P.S. What the &*^*&(*% you Montana boys doing letting all those libs take over your state. You boys seriously ^&%&%^'d up. Montana has always been a somewhat liberal state at least in the western part of the state. It goes all the way back to unions, miners and the copper kings. However, like every state we have a university system and like every state the system turns out liberals by the train load. Truth be told, I got no room to preach, bein' in Kalifornia and all. Thankfully I'm not from this communist hell hole. Counting the days till we're out. 4-8 more years depending. Jordan
Communists: I still hate them even after they changed their name to "liberals".
____________________
My boss asked why I wasn't working. I told him I was being a democrat for Halloween.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,478
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,478 |
Montana law
45-3-103. Use of force in defense of occupied structure. (1) A person is justified in the use of force or threat to use force against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that the use of force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry into or attack upon an occupied structure.
(2) A person justified in the use of force pursuant to subsection (1) is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or serious bodily harm only if:
(a) the entry is made or attempted and the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent an assault upon the person or another then in the occupied structure; or
(b) the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony in the occupied structure.
Comes down to reasonably believes.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261 |
Montana law
45-3-103. Use of force in defense of occupied structure. (1) A person is justified in the use of force or threat to use force against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that the use of force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry into or attack upon an occupied structure.
(2) A person justified in the use of force pursuant to subsection (1) is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or serious bodily harm only if:
(a) the entry is made or attempted and the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent an assault upon the person or another then in the occupied structure; or
(b) the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony in the occupied structure.
Comes down to reasonably believes. That's the Castle Doctrine and it certainly doesn't apply to Kaarma.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,806
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,806 |
Quick Reply Used:
For those pro shooting; do you have a kid? Could you imagine when they're young they do something really stupid? You never know when the shoe's going to be on the other foot.
Be Polite , Be Professional , but have a plan to kill everybody you meet
-General James Mattis United States Marine Corps
Nothing is darker than a mau mau's moo moo.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 19,604 Likes: 15
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 19,604 Likes: 15 |
I'm not pro or anti. It's a messed up case for sure. I did my share of stupid schit as a kid, but it didn't involve going into other peoples houses (or garages) and stealing anything. If my kid were to pull a stunt like that then I will have failed them miserably as a father.
MAGA
|
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,193,650
Posts18,512,630
Members74,010
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
