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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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If my kid did something stupid and was killed in the process for whatever reason I would be broken up but accept the judgement be it from God or man.
These kids thought it was a game and didn't realize they were breaking the law against burglary. Pure stupid and one of them paid for it with his life.
Personally, if we treated burglary like the old timers used to treat horse thieves there be a lot less burglary.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Campfire Ranger
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But you don't have kids (at least you've stated as much on here before) so what you would or wouldn't do in regards to anything your kid would do is just blather.
Stick to faeries and pixies.
MAGA
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Montana law
45-3-103. Use of force in defense of occupied structure. (1) A person is justified in the use of force or threat to use force against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that the use of force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry into or attack upon an occupied structure.
(2) A person justified in the use of force pursuant to subsection (1) is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or serious bodily harm only if:
(a) the entry is made or attempted and the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent an assault upon the person or another then in the occupied structure; or
(b) the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony in the occupied structure.
Comes down to reasonably believes. That's the Castle Doctrine and it certainly doesn't apply to Kaarma. Well, actually, it does apply. Unfortunately, it applies to convict, not exonerate him.
Communists: I still hate them even after they changed their name to "liberals".
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The way I read the story, again this assumes there is any truth to the media reports, is he set up the whole thing as a trap to entice and someone into an open garage so he could kill them.
Mind you the dead kid did enter the garage and thus was trespassing but I still don't see self defence or castle doctrine in this case. Looks like the jury didn't see it either.
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
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That was my thought as well, DD couldn't have a kid and say that. Billy G, for the record, I've never stolen anything, but like you, did some dumb chit when young.
Be Polite , Be Professional , but have a plan to kill everybody you meet
-General James Mattis United States Marine Corps
Nothing is darker than a mau mau's moo moo.
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my understanding is that in MT. lethal force can only be used to defend human life. That's how I understand it too. Not just MT but the US of A.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Not in Texas. Not in Washington.
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
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Kaarma's downfall is that he told several people what he was going to do before he actually did it.
And threatening to shoot the Trugreen guy didn't help his case.
Any wonder why he was immediately charged with deliberate homicide?
It was his mouth (and character) that led to his conviction more so than the actual act.
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Not in Texas. Not in Washington. You have 48 to go.
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Fair Chase:
What was the Trugreen guy? What was that about? I heard Kaarma had a criminal record in WA, but it was kept from the jury (to the Missoulian made it first page news a week before jury selection). Figures
Jordan
Communists: I still hate them even after they changed their name to "liberals".
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I do not know the laws of the other 48. I do know the laws of the two states I regularly carry.
However in my book finding someone in a shed, I don't have a garage, would not automatic be a death sentence. A threat to the well being of my family or friends would be. If you are in a state that has broader laws on the use of deadly force then it is a decision you have to make. I have thought about and made my decisions.
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
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About 3 years ago I defended a murder case (successfully) in which the trespasser was found on a third story balcony in the middle of the night. He then climbed down to a second story porch and stood on the railing. The female homeowner was freaked, had two little twin girls in bed on the third floor and called her ex-husband to come over ASAP. Th ex lived a few doors down. He had the trespasser at gunpoint and told him he was armed and don't move. So the stupid trespasser (later determined to be drunk) jumped down from the railing to the floor of the 2nd story porch (he had been on the third story window peeking) onto the same level as the homeowner. The ex-husband was inside the house, pointing a .357 mag out the window maybe 6 feet away from where the trespasser was standing (on the railing) and when the trespasser jumped, he drilled him.
Turned out the trespasser was an intoxicated 25 year old kid looking for a piece or ass (which he'd gotten once a month or two earlier) from the ex-husband's wife. Course, the ex-husband didn't know that and didn't have a clue who the trespasser was at the time of the shoot.
The argument that worked was, 2:00 in the morning, on the third and second floor of a house in a remote part of the county, a stranger peeking in the third story windows where your little girls are sleeping. What'sa reasonable parent to do? Trespasser could have been armed and could have been anyone, a rapist, a gang-banger, chi mo, who knows. Ex-husband gave him a firm order not to move and warned him he had a gun on him and would shoot and the kid jumped anyway.
Jury acquitted. Said it was a perfectly reasonable response from the ex-husband. We could not use California's Castle Doctrine (presumption that deadly force used inside the home against an intruder is lawful) because the trespasser was not inside the home.
Tragic case, actually. Alcohol, marijuana, trespassing and burglary is plain stupid when you don't have a clue whether the homeowner is armed or not.
Jordan
Communists: I still hate them even after they changed their name to "liberals".
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Fair Chase:
What was the Trugreen guy? What was that about? I heard Kaarma had a criminal record in WA, but it was kept from the jury (to the Missoulian made it first page news a week before jury selection). Figures
Jordan A trial witness (Trugeen employee) stated he was on the property (prior to the shooting) and was confronted with a shotgun in the early am by Kaarma asking who he was. Kaarma's 'partner' (female) as the media stated had to calm Kaarma down and apologize to the Trugreen employee. Kaarma would have been found guilty in any city USA. I am all for protecting yourself, your family and your property but this guy committed a crime and was properly found guilty.
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About 3 years ago I defended a murder case (successfully) in which the trespasser was found on a third story balcony in the middle of the night. He then climbed down to a second story porch and stood on the railing. The female homeowner was freaked, had two little twin girls in bed on the third floor and called her ex-husband to come over ASAP. Th ex lived a few doors down. He had the trespasser at gunpoint and told him he was armed and don't move. So the stupid trespasser (later determined to be drunk) jumped down from the railing to the floor of the 2nd story porch (he had been on the third story window peeking) onto the same level as the homeowner. The ex-husband was inside the house, pointing a .357 mag out the window maybe 6 feet away from where the trespasser was standing (on the railing) and when the trespasser jumped, he drilled him.
Turned out the trespasser was an intoxicated 25 year old kid looking for a piece or ass (which he'd gotten once a month or two earlier) from the ex-husband's wife. Course, the ex-husband didn't know that and didn't have a clue who the trespasser was at the time of the shoot.
The argument that worked was, 2:00 in the morning, on the third and second floor of a house in a remote part of the county, a stranger peeking in the third story windows where your little girls are sleeping. What'sa reasonable parent to do? Trespasser could have been armed and could have been anyone, a rapist, a gang-banger, chi mo, who knows. Ex-husband gave him a firm order not to move and warned him he had a gun on him and would shoot and the kid jumped anyway.
Jury acquitted. Said it was a perfectly reasonable response from the ex-husband. We could not use California's Castle Doctrine (presumption that deadly force used inside the home against an intruder is lawful) because the trespasser was not inside the home.
Tragic case, actually. Alcohol, marijuana, trespassing and burglary is plain stupid when you don't have a clue whether the homeowner is armed or not.
Jordan Sounds legitimate to me. But again, Kaarma told more than one person what he was going to do before he actually did it. Kaarma was hot headed and whose character had a large part to his conviction. I do however have a problem with the community's support of Diede (German exchange student). He did not deserve to die but he was in fact committing criminal activities. P.S. Kaarma lived in a very upscale community in Missoula.
Last edited by FAIR_CHASE; 12/18/14.
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Kaarma would not have been found not guilty with a million dollar attorney.
It was his 'character' that led to his conviction.
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As a counter point as I know a bit about this case. Guy went out to his driveway (after starting his SUV to warm-up) in the am before heading off to work and witnessed his SUV being stolen. As the SUV was speeding away he fired a single shot, killing the car thief. End result .... not guilty. It's not necessarily the act but rather your character that is on trial. http://www.examiner.com/article/spokane-jury-acquits-man-who-shot-car-theft-suspect
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The Grand Prairie police (TX) placed a flatbed trailer (with a flat tire) loaded with brand new tires on the shoulder of Interstate 20. That night, they made 18 arrest for theft. A judge dismissed all 18 cases calling the endeavor; "entrapment".
The Fort Worth police placed a bicycle on a sidewalk next to a parking meter along a commercial (retail) street. (University Drive), however the bicycle had a tracking device hidden in it. The police followed the signal to a garage and made an arrest. This conviction stood.
The difference in these 2 cases is the Grand Prairie Police had "eyes on" even filming the thefts, while the Fort Worth police followed a tracking signal. Entrapment laws are confusing to me and I won't pretend to understand them, but in my opinion all of the arrests should have stood!
When I was a teen, MANY years ago, another case involved a store-owner who was burglarized multiple times. He set up a booby trap that killed the next intruder. He too, was convicted of murder. Doesn't make sense to me..., either you can protect your property or you can't.
DMc
Make Gitmo Great Again!!
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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When I was a teen, MANY years ago, another case involved a store-owner who was burglarized multiple times. He set up a booby trap that killed the next intruder. He too, was convicted of murder. Doesn't make sense to me..., either you can protect your property or you can't.
DMc The problem with that is the booby trap that killed the burglar. You can't do that. In any state I know of. That's not considered "protecting your property" in the eyes of the law. A guy in Mason Texas owned a fur buying business in the mid 80's, when fur prices were very strong. He kept getting burglarized and had lost thousands. He got his 12 ga. and started sleeping at his warehouse. Sure enough the burglar came back for more. The owner shot and killed him. Grand Jury No-Billed him for legitimately protecting his business.
Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla!
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Campfire Ranger
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Is having 2-3 pit bulls in your fence a "booby trap"?
Common practice around here for dealing with metal theft on commercial sites.
Last edited by ringworm; 12/18/14.
TRUMP- GABBARD 2024
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I don't know what happened in the case exactly. But I don't know what baiting has to do with it.
Shooting for theft is either justifiable or not. The circumstances of the thefted property are irrelevant to me. This^
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