Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Deer Hunting Question For PA Deer Hunters???

Controlled magagement in Texas, Il, Kan or on the farm, etc isn't the same as here in Pa were we used to kill 80% of all at 1.5 years.

i've said the same thing for years. i used to shoot spikes when it was legal and a hell of a bunch of them were grey faced old deer. i saw 2 this year in archery who were mature deer with 10-12" spikes and nothing else.

You are right it is different. But genetic improvement is the same. Age does not make true trophy bucks. That requires genetics, and nutrition. If you look at those game farms they have 1st year bucks that we would love to shoot. I have killed old gray faces that, while nice bucks for me, were nothing special. However when the first requirements are met, age usually makes bigger bucks. Think of cattle, when you want to breed some "black" into the breed to raise market value you do not kill the black bulls. The idea of letting bucks get older has validity, however there is an unintended consequence. One of the biologists from the PGC even admitted this and said AP could not go on too long. A true plan would be a year with an antler limit, nothing with more than 1 fork. But that would not make people happy

Pa has proven genetics if they are allowed to age. On top of that Does also contribute to the genetics equation. It isn't only the Bucks.

Nutrition isn't a problem in the farm or semi rural locations. The big woods a different situation, but look at some of the pics from PaHicks post and in some areas it isnt all that bad and in places like the ANF with extensive clear cutting it is excellent over a large area.

Let them age and larger horns should follow.

http://whitetailoverload.com/watch-spike-buck-turn-into-monster-boone-crockett-buck-pics/

AR's are the road to ruin. I have hunted WV for over 20 years, and there are guys now clamoring for "Bigger racked deer". Unbelievably, they use PA as an example. It is the same "Carrot on a stick" Alt held out to the hunters in PA. The first step is kill a whole lot of does. If you keep a bunch of bucks around for a couple years and they are eating up the forest, something has to go. Keeping the herd healthy is a horseshit excuse, the biggest, smartest deer always survived. I used to hunt Maryland before I started in WV. Take a good look at that state's hunting. Most people that are in favor of AR's do not hunt public land. They watch TV and think a Boone and Crockett deer is going to walk right up to them. If it is posted property, it just might, but a truly wild deer would have to make a mistake to do that. I hunt public land in WV and always did. There have always been big deer around, you just had to be good or lucky. I am already seeing the affect of more doe killing down there.

AR's are one of the best things that ever happened to PA deer hunting.

It is not worth trying. There are many factors that control antler size age being one. Age almost always improves size. However I do not understand why people cant get the idea that, while they are seeing bigger bucks now, the long term effect is to downgrade the gene pool. They must have zero knowledge of animal breeding. Even people who have inbred enhance the dominant traits. Yes does do have an effect but that is just trying to ignore the bucks effect.

AR's did nothing for PA, except enable Alts Herd Reduction plan to be implemented, through gullible folks like yourself. HR brought numbers, deer and hunters, down so fast and that is what gave you bigger bucks, and more of them. Drop doe allocations and let the herd double. Because of AR, youll still see the same quality deer as you do now. Age alone gets you what you seek. Drop buck hunting in ANY WMU for 3 yrs and watch whats taken.

Youre giving man WAY too much credit. Especially with wild gene pool. What youre explaining cannot happen in the wild. Unless you introduce another subspecies on a grand scale, you got what you got. Age. Nutrition. End of story.

[b][/b]One of the main points that Alt made for AR and herd reduction was the health of the herd. His quote was something to the effect of "too many does getting bred by the small bucks that would not get to breed if there were more mature bucks and less does. That was the man himself saying that the small bucks doing the breeding is not a good thing. You are right in that the wild is not as concentrated as in a farm environment but the effect is the same, just not as pronounced. Will you say that killing the best animals and leaving the rest to breed would have NO effect over many years. We are already at about 10. Would you say that some of these spikes and forkhorns are never getting big, will breed for years,and will pass some of those genes on. It is the wild but the whole plan is to manipulate the herd.

Im telling you you cant manipulate the wild herd. I dont care what Alt said. Alt sold you Herd Reduction at DCNR's begging, and used AR's and your imagination to get it. Nothing more, nothing less. Age, nutrition. Thats all you need to know. Your thought that a spike or smaller buck to be inferior is laughable. Same genes as all other local buck. First rack is about birth timing, available feed and to a certain extent mothers health. Get the notion of gene manipulation out of your head. This is nature, not penned raised animals.

Explain older spikes. Im just trying to see if you are reasonable and open to thinking. i have an answer, and wont confuse you anymore. I have never stated that the wild can be manipulated to the extant of pen animals. I have never bought the pgc line and often wonder what goals they may have, you can bet$$$$$

Youre not confusing me...lol. most of the older spikes arent as old as one would think. 99.9999% of hunters never age their deer by jaw, and even thats not perfect(geographic area..sandy,rocky,etc soil types) Add in nutrition in the area and number of other deer(good bet hes subordinate and pushed away at suppertime). Tell me, how accurate is that old grey face method of aging?

Well i was not going to post again but i have to. My ageing method is the perfect one, never wrong. The damn thing looked old. LOL now to be serious how in the heck do you get that little smiley face at the end of your post. I cant figure it out.

Type : and D for , : and ) for or just above here where youre typing see the face? Click it and a bunch come up to choose from

I've been living is this State long enough to know that some have a bone for the PGC no matter what they do. They are always out to screw them with a bigger bone. It gets to be the point of being a dismal reflection on us as hunters.

Hunters bitch about the cost of a license yet can find the dollars to stock up on refreshments for a couple days hunt.

Hunters bitch about the science they use trying to give us a better Deer hunting experience. One fellow I know has shot the three biggest Deer of his life the last three years up in the North country. He has cameras out around his camp and giants are showing up. Giants that never showed up until AR went into effect. Canadian like Giants. Giants that for some reason they can't find when the season rolls around. Yet he thinks AR is a bunch of BS.

The PGC has its faults like all of us. Some of it forced on them by the legislature and the Fed. Protecting Hawks and Owls being a prime example. The increase in the number of Bears is raising hell on the Fawns. Archery is out of control, but the archers are a strong lobby and make their wants known to the legislature.
Combine it with the fact that archery is a silent killer and the legislature sees an easy way out to quell some anti-hunting voices and still say they support hunting. Thus they pressure the PGC, by controlling their budget to allow archery to run rampant in Pa.

Fellow asked me to go on a Pheasant hunt at a preserve. I told him that with Grouse being considerably down friends and I have shot over 50 Pheasants on Game Lands this year. We could have shot a hundred easily. He found it hard to believe the GC provides that type of opportunity for the cost of a regular license. I had to show him pics.

Pa hunters border on insane when they continually bitch about everything the PGC does.

Thanks I hope I finally got it. I am not good at this stuff

Because the PGC is pretty much inept at most they do, they hide pertinent information to their management plans, are tied in too tight with DCNR, and rely too much on cash strapped studies and students from PSU. Among many other things. Listen to answers when questioned by the legislature. Hell, look at DCNR data and your own observations. Their science is failed. Ill bitch all day long about them, because I can, and ill back it up if its worth my time.

Not to piss you off, but your friend is right, AR's havent a damned thing to do with his 3 biggest buck. Age. Lower deer and hunter density provide the ability to attain such. Time for bed, best not to make enemies this close to Christmas anyhow

We agree on a lot. I am mostly not happy with the pgc. Know one of their biologists and here much frustration with the politics in and out of the PGC. One thing is for certain a lot of this is as much theory as hard science. I think it was outdoor life that published an article about bass fishing harvest rules concerning min, max and slot limits. The interesting was how each had "side effects" that were unforseen but made sense after the fact. Am not anti archery but do agree it is a big problem. However when they want the deer killed and have a chance to make money off archery or fines there is no reason to change. I think it was you that suggested one deer season and hunt with what you want. I like that idea.