Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Fire-forming AI's with corn-meal and Unique and elmers glue???

The way I figure it, if you're fireforming cases of same diameter neck, use a bullet.

If you're fireforming from a smaller diameter, like making .250 AI cases from .22-250 brass, the COW method works beautifully.

Pic of a group done while fireforming .250 AI cases from .250 Savage cases - 20 shot group, 19 rounds went sub-moa with one flyer.



Picture of group done while fireforming .250 AI cases from .22-250 cases with Unique, cream of wheat and toilet paper for a plug - 50 shots:









Pretty neat, huh?

I shot against a guy with a glass eye. He was fire forming rounds with a Cream of Wheat recipe and not wearing glasses. It made fireforming rounds less appealing to me.

One of my discussion's with P.O.Ackley 34yrs ago. [img:center][/img]

I wonder what he meant by "results in loss of brass?"

He might mean brass splitting at the shoulder. This evidently did (and maybe still does) happen with some cases that have to expand considerably when AI'd, like the .25-35 Winchester. But I've never experienced it in my limited use of the COW method.

On the other hand, all of the rifles I've owned that have been chambered for "improved" cartridges (can think of 5 offhand, ranging from the .22 K-Hornet to the .35 Whelen AI) have shot well with either factory ammo or handloads using factory brass for the parent round. Maybe I've just been lucky.

I used this combo with Cisco to seal it. It formed the cases great only the Cisco made a mess of the barrel and was hard to clean out. Stunk too....
I went back to bullets and do off hand an shooting stick practice. If it is cost of bullets for fireformig is a problem a guy really shouldn't do an ackley. It does seem like a wast but I figure if I get in some good practice it won't be a waste.

This is pretty cool to have a letter like this....
Only I have never lost a single case doing this.....the brass lasted just as long as any other...

SQWeeler;

Amazing letter!

I still have a few type written letters from my dad when I was in the Navy and a few from my grandad. Those old type-writers, man... you had to have strong fingers to work those noisy things.

In any case, it is most amazing that there are still folks on Long Island that shoot. LOL

Thanks for posting that.

I've long thought that the subtle genius of PO's Improved creations was the capability to efficiently, and safely, use the factory parent.
Shooting full house loads to create improved cases was a confidence builder in the rifle plus providing a Plan B. Jim in Idaho's target is pretty sound proof.
My learning curve on the 257AI could not have been slicker.
The learning curve on the 7mmJRS could not have been more miserable, tho it did prove that God looks out for fools and reloaders.

I have a stack of letters from him.It was the best way to communicate with him as he was deaf in his later year's.Phone conversations were quite long as his wife would have to yell to him what I was saying.Robert...I shoot at least 3 time's a week here on Eastern L.I.as I belong to Peconic River Sportman's Club.

ok, I need to ask a maybe stupid question with an obvious answer, but I guess I'm missing it...

Why not fire form with full AI loads? In my thinking the brass is gonna expand well before peak pressures, so it should be formed and have the final volume of the AI'ed case before any issues with too high of pressure. Is it just maintaining some margin of comfort?

I may do a little testing. I fire form 7mm WSM brass from 300WSM as it's not very readily available. I may try loading 3-5 rounds with formed brass at some min 7mm WSM load, and load the exact same load in non-formed brass (I leave a false shoulder that is a crush fit when necking down the brass) and see if there is any appreciable difference in velocity or accuracy.

Reason I ask is fire forming 7mm WSM out of 300 WSM is a waste of bullets/powder since I could obviously never shoot the original round in the rifle anyway (as in the case of AI'ed chambers) and not interested in low power loads.

Appreciate any explanation, etc., in advance!

That works, for exactly the reason you supposed. In fact, I've often just started working up loads for AI rounds, using unformed brass, starting with maximum listed loads for the parent round.

Maximum loads will generate less pressure in the larger chamber, and by the time I've gone to the range 2-3 times when testing loads, I've got a enough formed brass for big game hunting.

With varmint rounds I just load up a bunch of ammo in unformed brass and go shoot ground squirrels or prairie dogs with 'em.

I do it a little differently. I don't do any wildcats any longer except the 6PPC and the 30BR. I do have fireforming barrels. I use almost a case full of Bullseye and a paraffin plug. I tried it in the shop, but it was too smokey. I live in the country and shooting outside is not a problem. The PPC is formed from 220 Russian. If I expand the necks and turn them first, the cases are short. If I do nothing to the brass and fireform, the brass doesn't shorten and I only have to expand them a few thousandths before turning.
My brass is always tight against the shoulder and I have no case separation. I have formed as many as a 1000 per year. It is just what I do and I wouldn't try to change your mind doing it your way.
I have a fellow BR buddy that fireforms his 6ppc from the 220 Russian with a 52 grain 22 bullet and 25 grains of H322 or equal in his 6mm fireforming barrel. Doesn't matter if the bullets rattle going down the barrel. By the way, he is considered one of the best BR shooters in the country.
My 30BR barrel is a 6mm used barrel that is chambered in 30BR. Doesn't matter if you aren't using bullets.

I used the COW to fire form 22-250 cases to 250 AI, I used a hot glue gun instead of Elmers glue and it was really easy to do it that way. I also used 8 grains of Herco, that Powder had been in the safe for over 30 years, yeah it was still good powder and worked out great. The Cream of Wheat is a little messy but not a big deal for me.

Four of us were shooting Pds after tagging out on Mule Deer in SE Montana a few years ago. I had brought my 22-250 AI and around 200 cartridges, all I had fire formed and loaded back.

Everyone, including the guide were taken with the accuracy of the Pac Nor barreled Rem 722, and we had soon shot all of 'em up.

We drove into Broadus for lunch and bought every 22 250 shell in the town. Most was Winchester and some Remington. I was salivating at all the free FF brass I was gonna end up with.

The factory stuff killed PDs plumb dead, but about half the Win brass had split necks. The Rem worked fine and I got several more loadings from it. I loaded back the Win stuff and got more split necks so I trashed all of it.

I make my FF loads with a max load [for the parent cartridge] from the Nosler manual with the bullets seated long enough for the rifling to finish the seating.

The 117 gr. Hornady seated this way for my 257 Roberts AI is still the most accurate load I've fired in any of my rifles.

Cornmeal is for cornbread and grits as far as I'm concerned.

Sounds like some bad factory annealing on that Winchester brass! I've seen that from time to time. Once got a bunch of Remington .338 Winchester Magnum ammo that tended to separate just below the bottom of the shoulder, leaving the neck and shoulder in the chamber. Sometimes it happened when fired the first time, and sometimes after being loaded once or twice. Junked that too.

The only time I use the cereal method is when the forming is relatively complex, as when making 6.5 Creedmoors from .22-250 brass. In that instance it's the easiest way to get the job done.

I love using creme of wheat. to make 243 ai I think I used 11 grains of unique, topped with cream of wheat then I shoved toilet paper in there to hold it. I waited till the family was gone one day and with some hearing protection formed all the brass I probably will ever need in that gun in a couple hours in my garage.

the nice thing is it makes the brass a closer match for the very first loads with that brass. normally brass is best once its been fired to match the chamber. the other thing is you can pitch the case trimmer after this is done. so fireform or case trim?? I take fire form ONE TIME.

I use the COW method to form 6mm Van Horn out of 225 Winchester cases, it would be really ignorant to use bullets for that.

Im not following...if I put a non AI round in any of my AI guns, it produces AI brass...same as Cream of Wheat, or any other silly voodoo. I dont see how you can claim using some cereal produces a "better" fireform than a full load and a bullt.

Thanks for the reply and confirming my thoughts JB!