Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Question about Large Pistol Primers

I have been reading another thread on this forum about 44 magnum loads for rifles. In that thread, the subject of primers came up as an aside. Rather than getting in the way of the OP's original questions, I thought another thread might be in order.

I have for many years used Winchester Large Pistol primers in both 41 and 44 magnum with some of the slower burning powders such as H110/W296, Accurate No.9, etc. for full power loads, since those primers are listed as suitable for both standard and magnum loads. Several on the aforementioned thread voiced the same opinion and use.

In the December 2014 issue of Handloader, page 15, Brian Pearce states "Furthermore, the Winchester Large Pistol primer that you are using offers less heat or ignition than even standard non-magnum primers from Federal and CCI."

Does anyone know of an experiment or study that answers the question or ranks LPPs as far as which standard or magnum primer is hottest? How are we to know? Since most published data recommends magnum primers with the above powders, according to Mr. Pearce, that would not include the Winchester primer.

Handloader did a pretty good experiment on primer flame etc. a few years ago, but I do not know how to get a hold of it.

The topic interests me, as well.

For over 40 years of reloading, Federal 215's for my belted cases and 210's for non, plus CCI 250 Magnums for 44 Magnum have done me well. There may be better options, but better how?

There are many, I am sure, who know this primer stuff much better than I and I hope they chime in.

I don't know about primer flame size or temperature, but years ago I stopped fiddling with magnum primers of any brand. Standard primers consistently provide me better accuracy and more uniform velocity.

I read somewhere years ago that Federal developed the 215 primer just for the 340 weatherby. It doesn't necessarily burn hotter but it has a longer duration flash.

Here's some info: http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/

CHOOSING THE RIGHT PRIMER

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Based on an article by John Barsness - GUNS magazine pg 26 May 2009. [JB, formerly of Handloader is one of the most qualified gunwriters when it comes to primers and reloading in general]
Information from the Speer #14, Hornady #7, Nosler#6, and Lyman #49 reloading manuals, Alliant and Accurate Arms data.
Additional Information from James Calhoon - "Primers and Pressure" Varmint Hunter Magazine, October, 1995

Hopefully this explains a bit more about, not only primers in general, but specific characteristics that can aid a reloader in choosing the optimum sparkplug. Pertinent information will be added to this section when more information becomes available.

BRISANCE

Primers come in different strengths, technically known as �brisance,� a word defined as �the shattering effect of a high explosive.�
Primer brisance mostly depends on the length of the flame that leaps out of the flash-hole after the firing pin whacks the primer cup. This flame can also be manipulated to last a little longer, by adding tiny particles of other flammable material to the priming compound. These differences really can effect not just accuracy but pressure.

For instance, in a very small rifle cartridge such as the .22 Hornet, a �hotter� primer might start to dislodge the bullet before the powder really gets going. Instead of a relatively gentle, slowly accelerating push, the bullet gets cruelly hit hard. This is why some Hornet fans use small pistol primers, with much milder brisance than small rifle primers.

Really huge rifle cases such as the biggest Weatherbys, Remington Ultra Mags, and older British African cartridges require a lot of very slow-burning powder to operate at all. Slower-burning powders are normally more difficult to ignite, and a bigger flame of longer duration helps, especially in cooler weather. The first �magnum� primer, the Federal 215 was designed for this very purpose. Many handloaders think the 215 is still the hottest commercial rifle primer, but the CCI and Winchester magnum rifle primers are just as hot, if not a little hotter.

Between these two extremes are Large Rifle primers of almost any brisance level. Remington and CCI primers tend to be the mildest �standard� primers and Winchesters the hottest (the reason that Winchester never had a magnum rifle LR primer until recently), with Federals somewhere between. Deciding which to use depends not only on the size of the case but the powder.

How fast a powder burns depends not only on granule size (bigger granules have more relative surface area) but on exterior coatings. Extruded powders, such as relatively small-grained 4895 or large-grained H-4831 depend mostly on granule size to control burning rate. Ball powders don�t vary much in granule size, so depend mostly on relatively flame-resistant exterior coatings to control burning rate. By definition, these coatings make ball powders harder to ignite.

For example, in the 30-06, IMR 4895 is very easy to ignite, one reason it�s often suggested for reduced loads down to 2/3 of a case�s capacity. We�ll probably get the very best accuracy from a mild primer such as the CCI 200.
To make the 30-06 zip however, we might try Ramshot Big Game. The Ramshot ball powders burn cleaner than most ball powders, but they also require more flame. Winchester Large Rifle primers are the hottest �standard� rifle primer and often perform very well with Ramshot powders, but if they don�t definitely try a magnum primer. This can often result in smaller groups.

Something else to remember is that competition rifle shooters often favor mild primers i.e. primers that produce just enough heat to properly ignite the powder. They feel that as primer brisance gets higher, it also gets less repeatable from primer to primer. Another train of thought is that the powder is ignited a tad more gently. When this happens, the front slope of the pressure curve is less steep. Which means the bullet is pushed a tad more gently into the rifling which tends to deform it less. Whatever the scientific reason, competitive rifle shooters seem to feel that the milder primers give both better velocity uniformity and accuracy.

The same principles also applies to handgun cases. You might find that magnum primers aren�t good for milder loads, especially with cast bullets for some reason or another (Elmer Keith claimed that the hot flame tended to slightly melt the base of the bullet - no way of knowing if that is true.) Whatever the case, often using a standard pistol primer can reduce group size with milder or cast loads.
On the other hand, magnum primers are almost always recommended for magnum loads, especially if hard-to-ignite ball powders like W296, or its H-110 twin, are used. In fact, magnum pistol primers were developed for the large case revolver magnums like the .357, .41, and .44 Magnums. They seldom are needed for standard autoloader rounds or standards like the .38 Special.
Some powder manufacturers recommend standard pistol primers with certain of their powders even in magnum pistol loads. Alliant 2400 is one where the use of magnum primers is strongly discouraged, and another is Accurate Arms, which recommends standard pistol primers with their handgun powders, including #9, unless �they provide better accuracy in your firearm.�

There also is an unusual situation that should be considered when deciding whether to use standard or magnum primers with ball powders that is pointed out in the Speer manual: Powder manufacturers may state that their propellents do not require magnum primers. This is generally true at maximum safe pressure levels. But Speer�s ballistic testing fully explores propellent behavior over the usable range of charge weights. They often found that a particular propellent works fine with standard CCI primers at the maximum safe pressure. However it may not consistently ignite with lower charge weights. In the lower pressure regimes typical of �starting loads� they commonly saw increased extremes of pressure and velocity. Some ball powders ignited by standard CCI primers will even produce short hang-fires�called �click-bangs� for obvious reasons�at start load levels but not at maximum safe pressure. In those cases the use of magnum CCI primers to insure performance over the range of charge weights is recommended (or perhaps a switch to a hotter standard primer such as the Winchester WLR).

So as you can see, picking the right primer brisance can be very important and can give you optimum accuracy and consistent performance. Fortunately for us there are primers of every brisance level in every category of primer, whether it be standard or magnum.

CUP THICKNESS

Different primers have different cup thicknesses. You can see the importance of cup thickness when primers are considered for semiautomatic rifles that have free-floating firing pins. This topic is discussed in greater detail in the post "MILSPEC PRIMERS FOR SEMI-AUTOS FAQ AND INFO" that follows the primer chart.

Handgun primers have thinner cups than rifle primers, making them easier to ignite with the typically weaker firing pin fall of handguns. Small Pistol primer cups are .017" thick, while Large Pistol primer cups are .020" thick. This is the reason using handgun primers in .22 Hornet rifle loads sometimes results in pierced primers in some guns. Obviously their substitution in the high pressure .223 Remington would not be a good idea.

Even the same type of primers from different manufacturers can have different cup thickness. Federal primers tend to have thinner cups than Winchester, Remington and CCI primers. On occasion this can be handy. Some revolver trigger and action lightening jobs may result in a lighter hammer fall that results in not all the primers going off. A switch to Federal pistol primers can make the load 100% again. The same thing can happen in cold weather with some �modern� bolt actions with light, fast firing pins. These are supposed to whack primers with the same approximate energy as an old-fashioned 98 Mauser strike, but under some adverse conditions they can occasionally use a little help. Federal primers can provide that help.
With Remington small rifle primers, the 6 � primer has a thin cup and is not recommended for higher pressure rounds like the common .223 Remington. It was intended for the .22 Hornet. When Remington introduced their .17 Remington round in 1971 they found that the 6 � primer was not suitable to the high-pressure .17. The 7 � BR primer was developed for this reason. According to Remington, the 7 � has a 25% greater cup thickness and they state on their web site: "In rifle cartridges, the 6-1/2 small rifle primer should not be used in the 17 Remington, 222 Remington or the 223 Remington. The 7-1/2 BR is the proper small rifle primer for these rounds."
CCI/Speer Technical Services says: "The CCI 400 primer does have a thinner cup bottom than CCI 450, #41 or BR4 primers... [with] the CCI #41 primer... there is more 'distance' between the tip of the anvil and the bottom of the cup." so that is their AR15 recommendation, although it seems like there are no complaints with using the BR4 and 450 primers by AR15 shooters and reloaders, in general. The #41 just gives you a little more safety margin for free-floating firing pins and would be the best choice for commercial reloaders who have no control over the rifles their .223 ammo is used in.

Another factor which determines the strength of a primer cup is the work hardened state of the brass used to make the primer cup. They are made with cartridge brass (70% copper, 30% zinc), which can vary from 46,000 psi, soft, to 76,000 psi tensile strength when fully hardened. Manufacturers specify to their brass suppliers the hardness of brass desired. It is possible that a primer manufacturer could choose a harder brass in order to keep material thickness down and reduce costs. Winchester WSR primers are somewhat thin, yet seem to be resistant to slam-fires and this is likely due to this hardness factor.

Large rifle primers all appear to have the same cup thickness of .027", no matter what the type.

This also affects pressure tolerance. Cases that utilize small rifle primers and operate at moderate pressures(40,000 psi) should use CCI 400, Federal 200, Rem 6 1/2, or Win WSR. Such cases include 22 CCM, 22 Hornet and the 218 Bee. These primers can also used in handguns such as the 9mm., 357, etc. Other cases that use the small rifle primer can use the above primers only if moderate loads are used. Keep to the lower end of reloading recommendations.
Cases that utilize Small Rifle primers and operate at higher pressures (55,000 psi) should use CCI 450, CCI BR4, Fed 205 and Rem 7 1/2 etc.

The only thing I have for difference between some brands of primers whether they be Magnum or Standard is their sensitivity especially when shooting lightened DA revolvers.

My standard load for the .41 Magnum is any bullet with 8.0 grains of Unique. Some SA revolvers I use Winchester and for the Smiths I use Federal Standard. Reason being is that the Winchester will often not fire when the DA is used on the Smith revolvers...SA they will fire every time.

I like using the Winchester or Magnum primers with Unique as many people say that Unique burns dirty. I've found that with a tight crimp and hot primers that Unique is no more dirty as anything else.

Just have never seen any accuracy difference when switching primers. The only way it can be tested if make up 50 rounds of the same load with different primers and shoot lots of 5 round groups to see if one is more accurate than another.

I've just found no difference....

Bob

Between Pearce's primer statement & Haviland's conflicting chronograph paragraph, I concluded the Printer's Devil had possessed that issue. I expect corrections in future issues.

270WIN,

THANK YOU! For finding and re-printing that article! I am going to print it out and tack it up in my reloading room. I was a subscriber to that magazine when the article came out, but I am sure that I have donated that issue to a kid long ago.

I use magnum primers for all my belted magnums and Ultra Mags except the 240 Wby which i use Fed 210. I use magnum pistol primers with most pistol ball powder . I use standard pistol primers with 2400 in the 44 mag, but not with any other powder in this case. I use standard primers in all of my standard size cases like the 270 and 30-06 , ect , ect . The only other time i would consider using magnum primes in standard cases would be when hunting in extreme cold weather. I could live the rest of my life with just these primers, Fed 210, 215, CCI 500 and 550, CCI 300 AND 350, and Rem 7.5 for all my case that require small rifle primers. I use nothing but Win LRM in my 270 WSM with MagPro

Been using WLP's in everything that has a hole for them and not a lick of trouble. Ignorance is bliss ;-)

I purchased a bunch of Win pistol primers (for standard or magnum loads) last summer when that was all I could find. They have been a constant source of vexation as they produce many misfires for me.

It seems the Win primer has a harder cup than the CCI 350 I usually use. My Taurus Tracker in 41 will misfire with the Win primers quite frequently. The 657 will misfire occasionally with the same loads, and the Ruger SBH will misfire infrequently with the Win LPP primer.

When the bullets are pulled it is quite obvious that the misfired rounds are because the primer failed to ignite, despite a nice indent in the primer.

As to magnum vs standard, I use the CCI magnum 350 as a rule with heavy charges of H110 or W296. I use the CCI 300 with light loads using reduced charges of Universal or Titegroup to moderate charges of HS-6, SR4756, or Blue Dot.

My quite tweaked upon 1917 action, upon which my wildcat 340 Tyrannosaur is built, has a speedlock kit in its bolt body SO strong that 1) you must use a drill press to dissasemble the bolt for thorough cleaning and 2) it will cause a ring or ridge around the primer strike (which used to be one of the 'signs' we would read to indicate a too hot load) with even NO GUNPOWDER OR BULLET in the case. This is with my old standby Federal 215M primers. I am going to try some Winchester Magnum primers for that rifle based upon these reports. Seeing as I am igniting some 93 grs of IMR7828 in that big case, the extra flame might do me some good anyway, even though the rifle shoots accurately and just fine with the Federal primers.

Something doesn't sound right here. Not saying it couldn't happen, but just doesn't match my experience with WLPs.

Over the last 8 to 10 years, I have shot well over 100,000 rounds of Large Pistol ammo -- 99 per cent of which was with WLPs.

In all those rounds, I've only had one primer that wouldn't ignite. I tried it in multiple revolvers and never could get it to fire.

FWIW,

Paul

I have to agree with Paul105. When I have hard to ignite primers they have always turned out to be CCI.

Yeah, WLPs have been my preferred large primer for decades, I've used many 1000s with out a problem that I can recall. The only problem I can recall came after I had a local smith do a trigger job on a Security Six, suddenly it wouldn't fire CCIs. Other brands were OK, he'd clipped too many coils from the main spring. A new spring and all was well again.


Edited to add: That is not to say that they couldn't have produced a bad run during the panic.

All of my offending WLP primers came from the same lot. Perhaps it was a bad lot?

Occasionally a second or third strike from the Taurus would light it off. Usually I moved the offending round over to the Ruger, and nine times out of ten it would then fire.

The Taurus has misfired a couple times with CCI primers, but it happens quite frequently with this lot of WLP.

I'd be replacing springs before replacing primers.

The Taurus is on the list for a trip to the shop. But the 657 and the Ruger SBH both have problems with this lot of primers. It would be a bit pointless to send them to the shop when they run flawlessly with all other ammo.

Idaho, you might contact Winchester, if it is a bad lot they'll want them back and almost certainly trade you for them.

There might be 2 to 3 hundred of them left, all sitting on top of a powder charge in 41 mag cases. I intend to keep on shooting them till they are gone, it won't take long when the weather warms up a bit.

Besides, there is nothing like an occasional misfire to show a shooter's bad form. grins! mine or the kids'es.