Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Lightweight stalking woods rifle optimal caliber help

I am jealous. Nice combination.

It is a sweet little rifle (short length of pull I am guessing made for a lady or small man/young adult?) that I have yet to "bloody" - I'll keep trying!

PennDog

Dear DumbassDon,

Let's here your take on the above, and your post trolling on another thread, quoted below:



You spout off about the .223 being too small for deer hunting and not even legal in some places for deer hunting. That latter part is at least true. You seem to base all of your "wisdom" on hunting in VT. Guess what? The .223 is quite legal for deer hunting in Vermont, as is any cartridge .22 caliber or greater that is NOT the .22LR.

You're not the only person with hunting experience in Vermont; I've hunted there as well, and even worked check-in stations for a few years. I've a number of friends that work for VT F&W and their experience matches mine: the most commonly used cartridges for FIRST TIME deer hunters to take their first deer in the State of Vermont are (in order): .22 Magnum, .223, .30-30, and the .243. Of those, only 1 would make your list as "adequate", yet they are the most frequently used for FIRST TIME deer hunters in the state you reference as your example for "using enough gun". None of them have the "power" of the .358, though all of them are much easier for lighter-build hunters to shoot accurately and often. Perhaps they know something you don't; shooting well is more important that shooting "heavy". I'd hazard that most of those young hunters are far more successful each year than you are. In fact, I know more than a few old timers up there in Vermont that use .22Magnums and .22 Hornets and they manage to put a buck on the meat pole every season. Can you say the same?

Then, take your "knowledge" to places like North Carolina, Georgia, Texas, Alabama, South Carolina and others. Most of those states allow centerfire .22s for deer hunting. ALL of them have far more generous bag limits on deer than VT. A good hunter in any of those states will kill more deer, or have the opportunity to kill more deer, each year than you'll see in a year in VT. I've hunted in several of those states and have had annual takes of whitetails over 10 several times. That's more than a decade worth of deer to a VT hunter. Not a single one of those deer could not have been taken with a .22 centerfire, and some were. A very good friend of mine in NC uses a .222 Remington for himself and his daughter for deer hunting. He's not lost one to the 50 grain bullets, and his freezer is always full. Can you say the same about your freezer?

Your club has "running deer matches". Okay, so what? It's a target match where placement is everything and power is not. A hit is a hit is a hit, and you can't miss fast enough to make up the difference. Those matches don't mean crap as far as caliber or cartridge, and if anything a lever or a pump in something like a .25-20 of .25-35 will give you an advantage over a .358 due to faster follow-up shots and reduced recoil (assuming semi-autos are not allowed). This "line of reasoning" from you is counter-intuitive and counter-factual.

Your last bit about people passing up shots "hurting our sport" is completely stupid. Those ETHICAL hunters that pass up shots that they do not feel 100% confident in, regardless of weapon in hand, are EXACTLY what hunting needs. We need MORE people passing up questionable shots and not taking them simply because they think that the more powerful cartridge in hand is enough to make up for poor shot choices and placement. What you are advocating leads to more wounded and lost deer, worse hits, and a worse reputation for hunting. As a state certified Hunter Education Instructor, I am taught and teach to new hunters to do the EXACT opposite of your "wisdom"; to pass up any shot that they are not 100% confident in and to NOT rely on a heavier caliber or cartridge to make up for poor shots. The selective shooter with a .223 or .243 that passes up on marginal shots is a FAR better hunter and sportsman advocating for our sport and doing it right, than is the "hunter" of your ilk that relies on more bullet or powder to justify taking poor shots because they think the cartridge gives them the "edge".

As I asked in your other thread: how many deer have you taken in the last decade? What were the ranges, conditions, angles, etc., of each?

I suspect, as usual, you're full of schit, speaking without experience, and bloviating on subjects where you haven't a clue and should probably STFU and learn something from those that do actually hunt successfully, even in Vermont. You've got a lot to learn, and you show no signs of having any clue as to that fact.

VERY well put, I completely concur as I expect most here will, BUT, he will never see the truth and will continue his drivel until he leaves this site.

I guess one must learn to "suffer fools" patiently, eh.......

Not high brow stuff by any means but...I used to have a Springfield 840 carbine ( same as Savage 340) in 30-30 with a 2 1/2x scope that was very light and handy. Cheap as well. Rather accurate for it's build.

Dan

i have a Savage 99 in 308 but when using a lever action in the woods i seem to always take one of my Win 94's or Marlin Lever Action over the Savage. I do most of my deer hunting in the woods with the same rifle i hunt the open spaces with, a Bolt Action .

Two weeks ago I took our local game warden hunting on our family farm. He used a .243 with a 95 grain Hornady SST to kill a good size wild boar(about 180 pounds). He hit it square in the shoulder,the hog hit the ground instantly,and the bullet exited the far shoulder. My warden friend said he saw dust fly when the bullet hit the dirt behind the boar.

I use a KImber with a 257 Roberts with 120 grain partitions that works very well too. Also had good luck with a 260 Remington with 120 Balistic Tips.

For a light bolt action to be carried in the woods for deer and hogs, I would choose a 243 win, a 257 Roberts,or a 260 Remington.

But lots of other cartridges will work just as well,from 223 to 35 whelen.

I wish Rem made the Model 7 in Left Hand

SNAP,

You haven't been reading Savage 99's drivel for nearly as long as some of us. I actually put him on "ignore" for a while, but eventually took him off, as he doesn't try to dominate threads with hyper-repetitive drivel like some trolls. Once in a great while he even posts something helpful!

Fifty or so years ago, IIRC, he was sure he hit a buck with a 50 grain Sierra varmint bullet launched from a 222 and did not recover said deer. Therefore a 223 loaded with 65 grain Sierra Game Kings, 60 grain Partitions, or whatever size Barnes or bonded Noslers is totally inadequate today.

It's simple logic.

He can't shoot for schit, then, if that's the case. RWE's preferred load in the deuce is a 50 Blitz, and it wrecks whitetals. Even his daughter agrees.

Johnny, this is Dewey, just a new handle as my old computer died when I seemed to disappear from this site. So, I have read quite enough......!

Anyway, good to be back, hope all is well with you and Eileen

Not trying to come across as high horse, but I don't know why threads need to degrade into belittling and name calling, especially over opinions on gun related stuff. It's almost like someone is insulting your family name or honor. If something works for you well, then it works for you well and you probably hold it in high regard. If it doesn't, you probably take the glowing words of others with a grain of salt. Kind of like "don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining". On top of that, it is either legal or not. Just like pot, some places it is legal like a cup of coffee and other places it is jail like assault and battery.

As for 223 being used for humanely killing deer, American Hunter published a nice piece on the subject back in 2011, "The Myth: The .223 is too Light for Deer". In this article they did not rely upon opinions based on mere anecdotal experience, but they gleaned facts from the professional experts behind the scenes who developed these factory rounds for use on deer as well as the professionals who used these rounds to dispatch deer on a regular and large scale. They explored the lab coat science in testing these 223 deer rounds as well as the Empirical data collected from the field. Just like anything in life, I am sure there are those who push these factory loads outside the envelop they were designed. But speaking in terms of their lab coat designs and professional use, this excerpt pretty much sums up the article findings.

“The .223 Remington is a suitable cartridge for hunting deer, within its limitation. This cartridge relies on velocity to drive the lightweight bullets deep. This same velocity contributes to tissue damage. The key to using a .223 Remington on deer is to keep impact velocities high. In other words don't shoot deer much beyond 150 yards. Past that distance, the velocity drops below the level needed for dynamic bullet expansion. When robustly constructed bullets like the Barnes TSX, Nosler Partition and Fusion are used inside 150 yards, penetration with the .223 Remington is on par with cartridges like the .243 and the .30-30 Winchester.”

Ok, so we heard from the nerds in the lab coats, what do the guys that shoot deer for a living think? My friend John Shaw has killed more deer than anyone I know—he’s managed an exotic game farm, worked on a Texas whitetail ranch, passionately hunts whitetail in numerous states using the .224 and .22-250. He has also culled scores of does for meat, depredation, and management purposes. John has this to say:

“I rely on my 22 centerfires more so than any other caliber. Low recoil and the typical pinpoint accuracy found in rifles of .224 caliber allow for careful shot placement. If you treat hunting with your .223 much like bow hunting and wait for the perfect shot, there is no reason that this caliber should not be considered for many applications. However, bullet choice is a major factor. Shots to the central nervous system with any type of bullet will work but I recommend premium, controlled expansion bullets, such as Barnes Triple Shocks, Nosler Partitions, and Trophy Bonded Bear Claws. Typically, I keep shots under 200 yards but animals hit in the shoulder, heart, and lung region with a quality bullet expire quickly."

The Conclusion
I’m not saying the .223 is the perfect whitetail bullet, I wouldn’t pack it on a trophy hunt or where long shots were likely but, with the right bullet, it is a legitimate choice for some big game animals. With big game bullets ranging in weight from 55gr. to 70gr., it’s versatile at a range of velocities.

It seems like not too long ago, maybe six years, more than half the states I hunted, listed the 223 as not being legal for hunting big game animals. Now, it appears that many of those states have adapted the 223 as being legal. The trend is most definitely changing toward the 223, and maybe within the next six years it will become legal in all the states that I hunt. But even so, if someone forms an opinion that it is better to shoot a larger chambering, if it can be done so with accuracy, then I will not begrudge that person's opinion. May not always agree, but I will not begrudge.

Best

Times have changed, a lot of the folks that don't think the 223 is appropriate for big game grew up in a time before premium bullets, stands, corn piles and food plots. Shots at standing deer were an anomaly. Critical placement on a driven deer or still hunting through the northern forest was of little concern and just hitting one and having enough bullet to break a deer down or at least leave a substantial blood trail were important.

When the 243 first came out I tried one for a couple of years and it was a dismal failure as a deer rifle, very erratic bullet performance. I still prefer 7mm and up with heavy for the caliber bullets for still hunting the northern forest deer. When hunting a stand I've fallen for a neat little wildcat that I developed, the 25-204, still enough bullet for ME to feel comfortable but small enough to be a delightful little gun to hunt with.

A well placed shot with a 223 can be spectacular, a poorly placed shot will leave little evidence of even being hit. My really only poorly hit deer was after my nephew crawled across my rifle in the truck searching for more lunch, my scope was a foot off at 50 yard and I shot a deer clean through the paunch luckily it was a 35 Whelen with a 200gr RN and there was a 1/2'" hole going it and a 6" one going out, a short tracking job and a finisher put the deer in the freezer. With a 223 I doubt you would have known the deer was even hit.

I'd simply love to bum around the woods with a classic stalking rifle



But if you don't need to scratch the nostalgia itch, it would be tough to trump toting one of these



As much as love the .223 and acknowledge it's capability with todays excellent bullets, I'd probably lean towards a 6.5 or 7 mm.

Get a 6.5 CM maybe a Ruger American.

That sweet little drilling is about the perfect knockabout gun, IMO. You're good from squirrels to elk.

Here I'll post more pictures of it for you.





The do all of the woods, birds to bucks.

A Little more do all bling.

Great photo... reminiscent of Larry Koller's "Shots At Whitetails."

erich,

I agree with most of what you said.

For easy shots a small bullet can get by.