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Joined: May 2007
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![[Linked Image]](http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/qq103/jtwodogs/HPIM0284.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/qq103/jtwodogs/HPIM0278.jpg) The first is a .62 flint rifle, from a Jim Chambers kit. James river I believe. The second is an original circa 1870 I found lanquishing in a defunct gun store, bought it for a $100 bill, restored the barrel to .40 cal via Ed Rayle. out of WV. They both are a hoot to shoot.
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Joined: Jun 2012
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lets use the current comments about screw in chokes .
How many folks know why was it that Cylinder bores held favor for so long , when screw on adjustable chokes, choked bores and jug choking had been around for a very long time but didn’t gain real favor tell the end of the 19th century ?
Why have we for some reason stopped being able to ask .
How they got a choked bore loaded ?
How is it that cylinder bores held the day even in BP cartridge guns well through the Public Trial competitions of 1850 through around 1880‘s continually posting scores well above the choked bore ?
What changed so as to achieve the results we see today with chokes ?
Greener wrote volumes on this very subject ., going into great detail . That information is out there , all we have to do is reach out and grasp it ..
I would appreciate a brief tutorial on what it takes to get good patterns from a smooth bore shotgun. Of if not that, more direction toward the secrets of the past?. Who or what is Greener? What would be a reasonable expectation? An honest IC pattern?
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Joined: Aug 2005
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
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C'mon Ron
Being a stout traditionaist is fine. I love reading muzzleloader history - love to attend reenactment-events. But the actuality in my life says my inlines are:....... more accurate -- more resistant to moisture - can handle more powder -- can shoot a bullet flatter -- can shoot a bullet faster -- less moving parts -- easier to pull a load, then reuse it -- easier to clean with open breech -- easier to inspect -- hotter ignitions...... etc....etc...etc.
I own both sidehammers and inlines. But if you do not see progress with inlines, I'm not sure what your definition of progress is.
Progress is in the harvest and you have a better chance at a harvest (all things considered) with an inline. ***************************************************************** Every fact you mention is absolutely true. However, who said that "progress" is the golden chalice or something we traditionalists even want? My thinking is "Whatever makes your motor run or floats yer boat"... and if it's in-lines, then so be it. However, for me, I like the traditional side-locks, the possible "handicaps" they bring with 'em, the aroma of REAL black powder and the limitations the side-locks shootin' patched, round lead rifle balls automatically put on the hunter/shooter. I've got 'scoped center-fire magnums and have hunted with a .338 Win. Mag. in a custom pre-'64 Model 70 for 40 years. Then I got tired of its recoil and it's almost-automatic "sure" kill even at extended ranges, so now I take my chances and don't mind the extra "work" involved in getting CLOSER before taking the shot... or even passing up a shot sometimes. Sure... I have had to "pass" on some nice bucks, but that's ok... it's MY choice, isn't it... just as it's your choice to use what amounts to a 'scoped in-line with "almost" center-fire rifle ballistics during muzzle-loader season. And, as long as that's "legal"... then so be it and good luck to you and I sincerely mean that, my friend. But for me... I'd rather do it the way I'm doing it... and you and my 2 sons can do it the way you and they prefer doing it. So what's wrong with that? Butttt... even THINKING that traditional muzzle-loaders are "dead"??? Nayyyy... no way, José.  Strength & Honor... Ron T. Well said Ron. I have modern rifles, and compound bows as well as recurves and longbows. They all have a place and time. For me a muzzleloader needs a side hammer and look the part. Patched round balls are the preferred projectile. I just get more enjoyment out of shooting that way. To each their own.
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
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Joined: Apr 2003
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Campfire Tracker
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Thanx, Centershot... I felt it "needed-to-be-said". Shucky-Darn, I still like my flintlock Long Rifle, too... but shoot it less and less these days because it's takes a bunch more "work" to clean after shooting it than do my pair of caplocks. After all, when all is said-and-done, "truth" is still TRUTH !~!~!. N'est pas, mon ami?  Strength & Honor... Ron T.
It's smart to hang around old guys 'cause they know lotsa stuff...
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Joined: Oct 2006
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I would appreciate a brief tutorial on what it takes to get good patterns from a smooth bore shotgun. Of if not that, more direction toward the secrets of the past?. Who or what is Greener? What would be a reasonable expectation? An honest IC pattern? Greener is the famous Greener shotgun Greener . Ill send you a link when I get home to his writings on line . One big thing though is that muzzle loading smooth bores are capable of regulating the load so as to produce the desired result . Very hard to do that with to the same extent with a cartridge . One of the basic riles however is that by reducing the powder to shot ratio you tighten the group . Increase powder to shot ration opens the pattern. Changing wads cards , number of each also changes pattern
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 624
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C'mon Ron
Being a stout traditionaist is fine. I love reading muzzleloader history - love to attend reenactment-events. But the actuality in my life says my inlines are:....... more accurate -- more resistant to moisture - can handle more powder -- can shoot a bullet flatter -- can shoot a bullet faster -- less moving parts -- easier to pull a load, then reuse it -- easier to clean with open breech -- easier to inspect -- hotter ignitions...... etc....etc...etc.
I own both sidehammers and inlines. But if you do not see progress with inlines, I'm not sure what your definition of progress is.
Progress is in the harvest and you have a better chance at a harvest (all things considered) with an inline. ***************************************************************** Every fact you mention is absolutely true. However, who said that "progress" is the golden chalice or something we traditionalists even want? My thinking is "Whatever makes your motor run or floats yer boat"... and if it's in-lines, then so be it. However, for me, I like the traditional side-locks, the possible "handicaps" they bring with 'em, the aroma of REAL black powder and the limitations the side-locks shootin' patched, round lead rifle balls automatically put on the hunter/shooter. I've got 'scoped center-fire magnums and have hunted with a .338 Win. Mag. in a custom pre-'64 Model 70 for 40 years. Then I got tired of its recoil and it's almost-automatic "sure" kill even at extended ranges, so now I take my chances and don't mind the extra "work" involved in getting CLOSER before taking the shot... or even passing up a shot sometimes. Sure... I have had to "pass" on some nice bucks, but that's ok... it's MY choice, isn't it... just as it's your choice to use what amounts to a 'scoped in-line with "almost" center-fire rifle ballistics during muzzle-loader season. And, as long as that's "legal"... then so be it and good luck to you and I sincerely mean that, my friend. But for me... I'd rather do it the way I'm doing it... and you and my 2 sons can do it the way you and they prefer doing it. So what's wrong with that? Butttt... even THINKING that traditional muzzle-loaders are "dead"??? Nayyyy... no way, José. Strength & Honor... Ron T. Well said Ron. I have modern rifles, and compound bows as well as recurves and longbows. They all have a place and time. For me a muzzleloader needs a side hammer and look the part. Patched round balls are the preferred projectile. I just get more enjoyment out of shooting that way. To each their own. I get most enjoyment from a patched roundball ML too. 1:66 is my cats meow fun-time gun. But one better know it's limitations and its likes / dislikes. There were times I had that ML and saw a buck out of my range by 30-40 yards, wishing I had my inline that day. There were times when snow and rain from a branch over my head dumped on my ML and I wish I had my inline. There were times I encountered a hangfire or misfire on a buck and wished I had my inline. Two months ago I spent 4-5 hours trying to remove a bit of rust from the very bottom of my sidelock breech. With inlines, that doesn't happen. Water is the #1 enemy of muzzleloaders and you must use soapy bucket water to flush breech-bottoms, nipple areas and frozen / cleanout bolster screw-areas. Not so with an inline. I love my sole, remaining 1:66 sidehammer. Will always keep one in the future. But never 2...... never seven, like I had in December. Sold them all after my last hangfire on a buck. Been hunting bucks with inlines for 20 years. Never had a hang/misfire in the woods...... never. Want to remain a traditionalist hunter? ........OK. So do I, but in a hunting spot in the woods where I know and have the limitations to meet the demands of my ML. While seated, I take precautions against the weather with that gun, something that's not necessary with my break-action inlines. Like I said..... I love that sidehammer most. But I trust it the least.
Last edited by Triple_Se7en; 02/17/15.
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Joined: Nov 2005
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2005
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Traditional muzzleloading isnt dead, YOU just have to get off your ass and start doing it. Its no harder than any other kind of hunting. Bingo! Far be it for me to castigate a man for choosing to hunt with an inline (no matter how much I may privately disdain them). When I elect to sally forth with a ML I choose for it to be a traditional side lock, rifle or shotgun, because I feel it contributes to my feeling of connectedness to the days of yore. A scoped inline is nothing more nor less than a very efficient modern killing machine- albeit one that loads via the muzzle, one shot at a time. Using a "traditional" ML simply adds another dimension to the challenge of ML hunting, one that I relish and one that I fear a youngster who bypassed the "old ones" and went straight to the inlines is sorely missing (and doesn't even know it). I bet in another couple of generations you'll find guys waxing nostalgic for the days of scoped Remington 700 inlines and X-Boxes, and such. Progress? Not for me to say, and if I did say my opinion would be worth a cup of warm spit.
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,066
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,066 |
![[Linked Image]](http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n566/tddeangelo/Martin%20Rifle/BAE64D32-5880-4CD7-8E44-C1301D081200_zpsghatbfsx.jpg) That's my 62-caliber long rifle with a doe it killed on Jan 1, 2015. Rocklocks are alive and well here in PA...
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Joined: Oct 2006
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T7 , I submit that if you trust it the least , then something is wrong . There should never be a doubt that the gun will go off . If and when it does , then it should frankly surprise you I cant speak for others but the few times I have had issues , it was my fault . Those times , I didn’t wish for an inline I wished I had by center fire LOL But then I realize that , it would also be a different game . Im also a hunter first and target shooter 2nd . But since I don’t get to hunter big game year around , I there for spend a lot of time target shooting in preparation. Thus im very surprised when my flintlock fails to fire ,regardless the weather . here is a link to Greeners writings . the first book is more about muzzleloading and early cartradge shotguns https://archive.org/details/gunitsdevelopmen00greerich
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Joined: Jun 2012
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Well, this should keep me occupied on these cold days. Thanks.
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Joined: Feb 2006
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Half the fun of dialing in a shotgun is finding the right combo of powder, OP wad, shot and over shot card(s). Once you find what works, it's gravy from there.
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Joined: Jan 2001
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Oregon seems to be keeping things primitive if it's defined as a muzzleloader hunt. Iron sights only (no scopes), no sabots, no pelleted propellants, if inline the firing mechanism must be exposed to the elements, no slugs longer than 2 X caliber, and center fire primers can not be used for ignition.
1Minute
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OP
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Idaho is along the same lines as Oregon, only they offer very limited muzzleloader hunting opportunities or want to make it where that is all that you can do. Which stinks.
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
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Joined: May 2010
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The unit I hunt in PA offers a 4-week season after Christmas, and it's flintlock ignition only.
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Joined: Oct 2006
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Idaho is along the same lines as Oregon, only they offer very limited muzzleloader hunting opportunities or want to make it where that is all that you can do. Which stinks. well , we had our chance to expand opportunity . But some folks didn’t listen to what the commission was saying so . Now we have what we have . Which I believe will now gradually get smaller and smaller . As for me . Ill hunt with my flintlock in the general season . That way I don’t have to pay for a stamp , that promotes a rules system I don’t agree in . that’s IMO the area in this state with the real opportunity .
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It seems totally backwards to me. IDF&G should promote more difficult methods of harvest not eliminate them. It gets folks out and does little to the game populations. Yet they are bent on limiting bowhunting and muzzleloading?
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,612
Campfire Tracker
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I dont think its dead...but sure aint thriving around here.
For me, muzzleloader hunting is nothing more than more time in the field. I dont care a bit for the nostalgia, or want to deal with any more mess than I have to. I think a lot of hunters are like me.
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,154 Likes: 13
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Joined: Dec 2006
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Campfire Tracker
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I didnt necessarily mean mess, probably an improper use. Hassle would be a better term. 209 primers, synthetic stocks, magnified optics, and BP substitutes all make my life easier.
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,154 Likes: 13
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
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Lemme see if I got this under control. No primers Stocks is stocks No optical sight 4-5 patches to clean up. Yep, kinda easy. ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/Black%20Powder/8247b090-cc6a-4986-8b60-81cd4ae52f45_zpsvsbreaqk.jpg) 7# 3 oz ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/Black%20Powder/Turpin-1_zpsabjebgyc.jpg) You are free to make your own choices, but please make sure your aspersions are cast upon the waters gracefully.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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