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So, let's demonstrate the absurdity of your first premise, "There can be no good or evil without Jesus". The human race has been around for about 250,000 years, but Jesus only can about 2000 years ago. So for the first 248,000 years there was no good or evil? Absurd.

As for us not being animals, for a doctor, you sure don't know your biology. Humans are a species of primate, which is a category of mammal, which is a category of vertebrate, which is a category of animal. Yes, we are animals. We certainly are not plants or minerals.

As for us "behaving like animals", different animals behave in different ways. Part of being human is the ability to learn and to modify our behavior to better enable us to live together.

A wolf killing 25 goats is not bad for the goats? Really? If they were your goats you don't see the benefit in shooting the wolf before he eats the rest of our goats? That sounds like something a liberal would say.

As for the rest of your claims, you still have not presented sufficient evidence to establish the existence of a creator to move onto these further dependent claims.

Even before Jesus, God made people different than animals. He made them to be human rather than inhuman. He made them, yes, even those who came before Jesus, in the image of Him, with innate knowoedge of right and wrong and an awareness of a Supreme Being.

Why do you strive so in vain to act so obtuse?

If you err in driving and kill a child will you not feel remorse? Does a pitbull which kills a child feel remorse. If there is no Him there is no good and if there is no good there is no bad, as it is for animals. You can say you would feel remorse because of what others have tauggt and engrained in you from childhood. Where 5he hell would they get their ideas from right and wrong? Oh, yeah, i forgot, from those who taught them. Yeah, and it started at the beginning of human kind becsuse they were not inhuman. They were human because they were made in the image of Him - with a conscience - the innate knowledge from Him of right and wrong. You didnt get it from your ancestors, you got it from Him.

Im tired, broke ice for cattle all afternoon. Good night and God bless you as your needs may be. Eye

Your quotes from John make a nice illustration.

Now you do not see Genesis as scientific fact, so lets walk through the implications as it relates to Original Sin.

If the events as portrayed in Genesis are not a historical fact, there is no Adam and Eve, there is no Garden, there is no tree, and hence there is not alleged theft of a single apple for which the entirety of humanity can be blamed for, for the whole of eternity. Without a literal reading of that portion of Genesis, Original Sin goes away, because it never happened.

RH, thanks for joining the conversation. There are just a few things you left out.

From the general Christian perspective (you enlightened version may very slightly),

God made the rules.
As the all knowing, all powerful creator of the universe he could make the rules any way he chose, yet, through the doctrine of Original Sin, he choose a set of rules that would dictate their destination as hell, before they are even born.

Now because God chose to set the bar at this spot, he has to create a "loophole" where he held of human sacrifice of himself, to himself, because the rules he created where unfair to begin with.

This is just a update version of the older symmetric practice of seeking vicarious redemption through scapegoating. This is where a tribe would load their sin upon a goat and drive it into the desert to die of thirst and pretend this some how absolved the tribes of their transgression. Now this in now way actually takes away the sins of the individual or tribe. Performing a humans sacrifice, or killing a goat in now way takes away your responsibility. It in no way returns the property you stole, nor returns life to the person you murdered. This not a path to moral. This is a way to escape your morality and responsibilities by accepting another immoral act. Keep in mind, regardless of how good you are, unless you accept your pieces of this human sacrifice, you will be tormented forever, just because God says so...but he loves you.

As for a desire to do good, I have a desire to do good and not evil, no Jesus required. Same with you. Previously you've claimed you were less good in the past then you are today and you credit Jesus with your transformation. Personally I believe the transformation occurred within you, and Christianity just happened to be the philosophy you choose to follow on the path to the new, better, more moral self. You could of chosen most any new guiding philosophy, and so long as you didn't fall in with zealot nutcases, the result would of been pretty much the same.

[/quote]

Without a Jesus there would be no good or evil and there would be no right or wrong. HE created you in His image and giving you a spirit as He has made you human rather than inhuman, or an animal. That's why the lost try to convince us we are nothing but another form of animal.

A wolf or cougar teaching its young to kill and wasting 25 angors goats in the process, as ive seen cougars do, is not evil or wrong.

It has no concept or perception of right and wrong because there is no right or wrong for it.

You are different from an animal. There is a right or wrong and an evil or good for you. Its the innate knowledge of same your Creator instilled in you that lets you know you are more than an animal and are, in fact, created with a conscience, and thus, in the image of Him.[/quote]

So, let's demonstrate the absurdity of your first premise, "There can be no good or evil without Jesus". The human race has been around for about 250,000 years, but Jesus only can about 2000 years ago. So for the first 248,000 years there was no good or evil? Absurd.

As for us not being animals, for a doctor, you sure don't know your biology. Humans are a species of primate, which is a category of mammal, which is a category of vertebrate, which is a category of animal. Yes, we are animals. We certainly are not plants or minerals.

As for us "behaving like animals", different animals behave in different ways. Part of being human is the ability to learn and to modify our behavior to better enable us to live together.

A wolf killing 25 goats is not bad for the goats? Really? If they were your goats you don't see the benefit in shooting the wolf before he eats the rest of our goats? That sounds like something a liberal would say.

As for the rest of your claims, you still have not presented sufficient evidence to establish the existence of a creator to move onto these further dependent claims. [/quote]

You begin your argument with dogma. Much like religionist do. Your number, 250,000 years is improvable, and has been pushed back to 2 to 4 million years depending on wither or not science in its omnipotence find it convenient.

Naturalist, however, do not use those terms like dogma. They use phrases like, "It is the best explanation we have."

To the naturalist, any explanation will do, as long as it does not include God.

national Version
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

It doesn't even matter if Adam and Eve are literal or not. The point is that on that day they partook of the knowledge of evil. Up until then they had only known good.Now they know both good and evil. It is the point at which evil entered into the world.

A.S.
I thought it a bit funny that you think I don't take the scripture literally. I actually do take it literally. I just don't get hung up on single points of scripture. I would much rather let all the scripture lead to a broader message.

RH, I've never taken you as a literal Young Earth Creationist?

Your implication is incorrect. I said I interpret "Genesis" as both literal and figuratively. There is more in Genesis than just the creation account.

As pertaining to the creation account, where in Genesis does it say that Adam and Eve were forbidden from eating "a single apple?" This type of supposition is very telling.

Secondly, even if it were an apple, which you can provide no scientific of philosophical evidence that it was, your argument would not be furthered.

Eternal punishment was and is the consequence of disobedience to revealed truth from an eternal God.

PS I passed Comparative Anatomy with a 90. One of the highest scores in the class.

Yall just have a twitt telling me yall are animals. TFF.

Like R Reagan replied to Sam Donaldson who said we were decendants of monkeys. RR said Sam may be decended from monkeyd but he was not.

No animal contemplates a hereafter or everlasting life. No animal contemplates building a rocket and going to the moon. Why did man, because we can, and those who cant comprehend going everlasting life have a good reason. Its because in their present mind, they have no chance.

New Living Translation
"The Lord has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts--so that their eyes cannot see, and their hearts cannot understand, and they cannot turn to me and have me heal them."


Many are hard hearted because they disagree with the ways of Him and shy from the Truth that would convict them of their sin. Many of those find short solice trying to find fault with which to disprove Him, as did those who crucified Jesus.

I've heard the young 6000 year old earth theories. I've also heard theories that there was a first earth that fell into chaos at the fall of Lucifer. In other words, a vast amount of time took place between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. I don't really concern myself with either.

I would much rather look at the big picture of the story of Adam and Eve. it seems to me that it is the universal story of man first relying on himself rather than on God. Satan tempted man then just as he does now. Satan told man to gain knowledge so that he would be just like God, or in my view we could say a god to himself. Satan enticed man to commit the same sin that got him thrown out of Heaven. Satan decided to exalt himself so that he could be like God. Isn't that what man does even today? Isn't that the whole argument? Is God in control or are we gods to ourselves? Do we submit to God or do we control our own destiny?

AS, many bible scholars do not believe those sent to hell will suffer forever. They perceive that though the fires of hell burn forever God does not want them to suffer for ever and it is as if one is cast into a lake of fire that burns forever but the poor soul is history and dead in essentially the blink of an eye. I guess that can be a bit of solace to some who would accuse Him of being cruel.

It has been said that many reject Him because they do not want to give up their life of sin.

For those whose hearts are hardened and whose eyes are blinded it still isnt really hard or very expensive or time consuming to just say, "Lord Jesus Christ, i dont believe in you, but in the unlikely event i am wrong for the first time in my selfdirected and successful life, i ask you to come into my heart and let me know you are real. In Jesus name I pray, Amen.

I mean, one who doesnt believe could even do this in a closet so no one could see and ridicule them.

My guess is that many who profess not to believe are sfraid to do this for fear He would answer their prayer and they would henceforth fear living in the sin they prefer to live in.

That is great news given that they and you are fully supportive, This I do not doubt at all.

HUH ?

Huh, huh?

Frst, I doubt that. Many have been come to a saving knowledge of Jesus without ever reading a Bible. Second, there is no basis to remove the Pauline Gospels.

LOL!

Read the book before you say that.

It's quite clear and uses sources that Christian scholars have never acknowledged or even studied.

Exposing "Saul/Paul" the crooked creator of Christianity as a fake.

Good book.

Some folks need Theology and Paul provided that.

Some folks are drawn to Pomp and Ceremony.... the Church provided that.

Some folks are drawn to the simple truths... John, James, and Peter provided that.

Some people despise anything remotely Holy and books like you are shilling for provide that.

I wouldn't waste my time. I figured it was using heresy to justify heresy. There is nothing new under the sun.