Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Hunting for the experience, not trophies?

I'm interested in going back to South Africa or perhaps Namibia for another dose of African adventure. On my first trip, I took 8 species of plains game, and had a wonderful time living out a lifelong dream. I also found the that the taxidermy and shipping and waiting for trophies was just too costly and took too long and too much worry. I'd like to go back and have more African hunting experiences, but don't really care to bring back more trophies, the photos and memories would be enough. I am a hunter of modest means, and don't have room in my house for more "stuff" anyway. ( After a year, I haven't even hung up my eland and gemsbok heads) I might keep the teeth of another warthog, or the outer horn sheath of an eland, but that's about it. I'm more of a hunter-naturalist than a trophy hunter for sure, but the entire PH / Outfitter system seems geared to trophy collectors. I'd like to shoot a few antelope, perhaps a few birds, do some fishing, while learning about the environment and the critters that live there. Are these sacrilegious thoughts? Does anybody offer that kind of experience?

Absolutely. We've had a few hunters come in, hunt, take some good photos, and leave. We have to be honest, taxidermy IS a substantial cost to a safari and one that needs to be budgeted for.

Please check your PM folder.

I have done a couple of hunts in Africa like you described. A couple of days of photographic safaris mixed with fishing and hunting is always fun. My wife and I spent a month in Zimbabwe once doing just that. My last couple of trips I have not spent any money on pack and dip, air freight, agents, taxidermists, etc. The memories have been more than enough.

You may consider Mokore Safaris in Mozambique. They have a several hundred thousand acre unfenced concession with great plains game hunting. They also operate an Eco Camp in the area that offers experiences other than hunting.

Another note is consider the time of year you go. Depending on the area you can see some unique things when the seasons change.

For me I love being in Zim during the month of November. I have seen rivers fill up overnight, grass sprouting, mopane trees turn green, and red velvet mites appear with the first rain.

I huted South Africa in June 2014

10 fabulous days and eleven different species of game in the salt

I opted for no import due to the 10k worth of cost involved

I am more than satisfied with a great photo album and money saved on heads on the wall will get spent on other hunting

Check around, theres a number of outfits offering cull hunts. More shooting, less trophies!

I don't think it is sacreligeous at all....I was a bit surprised at the cost of taxidermy for a safari, and I don't have the wall space, either (yet, I must admit that I REALLY wanted that gemsbok and wildebeest head as a reminder of my first trip!)
As long as the meat is used, I have issue with leaving heads/hides back in SA. However, I do believe it you DON'T export the trophies, you will be charged VAT on the trophy rates (which I still think is cheaper....ALOT cheaper...than taxidermy rates).
Maybe Marius can weigh in on that, as I am not certain.....

While I admire the artistry and workmanship that goes into the taxidermy, you certainly need sufficient wall space, or even a trophy room to display it. However, a zebra rug on the wall would be cool.

1st time we went to Africa, we brought everything back. Last couple of times, not. Pictures good enough. God grandson's stuff came back, but just a couple of things. No VAT charged on the stuff I left there the last times I was there. One big difference between now and the old days is, the pictures so much better, they can actually fill in quite nicely, and can get poster size ones to put up that can really show what's there.

You are absolutely correct. If nothing get's exported, there is VAT payable on the animals. VAT is 14%. Excellent point.

I did 8 safaris and only on the last one did I take a trophy. It was for Elephant and I brought the tusks back. Prior to that I gave all my trophies I shot to the PH/Outfitter to do with as he desired. The Ph actually mounted my Oribi and Waterbuck and another PH friend had a pedastal mount made of my Sable. I have 2 Zebra rugs that were actually gifts from friends there. I just don't particular have any use for trophies. Also I live in a modern townhouse and the ceilings are a little less than 8ft. Also my late wife has almost everywall covered with nice (and valuable) oil paintings we had collected over the years. I have my memories and many photos to show. They are all I need. I plowed the Taxidermy and shipping fees into more animals and longer safaris. Worked for me.

Quite understandable thought. The experience is #1, mounts #2. Still figuring out where a 54" Kudu, Gemsbok, and a few others are going to land......not to mention the Bison from Utah. I just thought a skull/horns (ok european mount) paled in comparison to a shoulder mount.

I do a lot of tap-dancing around the wife and give friends dirty looks when the pour the salt in the wound - they know better than to ask where animal A or B is going - but they do it anyway, and always in front of the wife.

Go, pay the VAT and enjoy every minute!

I just went through this with a PH. I explained to him that my wife and I really wanted to visit and hunt in Namibia, but after a 2009 safari to RSA, my "man cave" is full and and I don't need any more mounts.

He assured me, that NOTHING goes to waste and if I would be satisfied with photos, that was fine with them. Obviously, the costs of taxidermy and shipping is significant, and could make the difference between safari, or no safari.

I plan to go this route.

donsm70

This is the reason I haven't gone to Africa. I love the idea of it. But I don't know what to do with the trophies? I don't want big mounts taking up my wall space anymore (I sold off my two Moose mounts just to get the wall space back) and I'm a meat hunter but you don't get to bring the meat home from Africa. It just doesn't work out well for me.

You can just have European mounts done.. They are easy to move, and cost far less than full mounts.. I have a relative that went, and only brought home photos of the game taken..

as far as im concerned the experience is worth more than any trophy brought back....would happily go even with no camera along and nothing brought home but memories........but would REALLY prefer to bring the camera too

Mike I am a meat hunter too, but take comfort in the fact that all the meat ( and a lot of other stuff that we don't consider edible) gets used for human food when a game animal is shot in most of Africa. I did get to taste some of my animals on my first safari, and I'd insist on the opportunity to taste some of each on my next safari, but regardless of who has the meal, all the meat gets utilized by someone, and they are grateful.

What is rarely discussed is the cost of export

1st there is the cost of cleaning the skull....this must be done to be legal to export

Then there is insecticide dipped, wrapped and packed in a wooden crate and air shipped

After your pacage leaves Africa it can only be shipped to certain airports that will receive game

After US arrival a USDA approved broker must be hired to clear your crate and pay game and fish fees

Then the crate can be picked up or shipped with more cost to you

Dip and pack for my 10 animals was going to cost $2400
Shipping from Africa to Chicago was quoted at $1400
Broker fee at Chicago was quoted at $500
Shipping from Chicago to me was quoted at $300

$4600 for a crate of cleaned skulls and salted capes

Add in a $9000 quote for 10 shoulder mounts and I decided to pass on import and just embrace the memories and photographs

The cost after the safari is seldom talked about

It is as much if not more than the hunt itself depending on animals killed

"After US arrival a USDA approved broker must be hired to clear your crate and pay game and fish fees"

This is wrong...you can, and I and many others have done so, do this yourself...and no fish and game fees....

but yes, none of the rest is cheap...

The costs are about the same for importing trophies to Canada as what Tedthorn listed. I'd rather hunt more.

Yes you can do this yourself but most don't.....fish and game fee differ depending on animals imported

I do realize all the meat gets eaten. But my only impetus to hunt is to fill my freezer. I mean I enjoy the entire experience but meat is my goal.

I'm leaning more in the direction of getting high quality photos done and forgetting the trophy dip/pack/shipping for reasons already stated by tedthorn.

This guy has done a couple of things for me, and does absolutely fantastic work.
http://www.trophyshotprints.com/

JG

Did you frame your prints from Roland or just hang them?

Cameraland also does quality enlargments

Been to Africa several times, and value the experience greatly.
I always bring something back, however, in addition to photos and memories- sometimes just a hide, or skull and horns, but often shoulder mount and full mount materials.
Some animals, like a monster Sable, or Kudu, or Waterbuck, etc., just deserve to be preserved. They provide an endless source of conversation about past hunts and experiences with friends, acquaintances, and family members who visit our home.

There's no getting around the expense, though- the last safari to SA resulted in $3100 for dip, crate, and ship etc. costs, and another $6000 to the taxidermist for a mix of full-body, shoulder, and European mounts.
It was, however, probably our last trip to Africa, and most of my future hunt plans are more meat hunts than anything else, here in the US.

It has been 20 years since I went to Africa, but we had the European mounts done there, and shipped to us.. Of course they had to clear customs. I don't have the cost, but it was quite modest.. But a pal had his mounted.. That cost as much as the trip.. I am glad I got the European mt. when I look at them, each has a memory for me.. They remind me of a place I loved to visit, people I loved to be with, and very likely something I will never do again.

I splurged for the metallic prints (2). They come with a hanger on the back so no need for framing. I haven't personally seen his regular prints, but I'm sure they're great too.

Gents,
My .02, Hunting in Africa is a process. From planning, to buying stuff, half of which you don't need and will never use to actually getting there.

The taxidermy is a fundamental part of the process, from which, in my opinion you cannot hide. If you Safari in Africa, anywhere in Africa and merely take a few snapshots and leave the rest there, you are devaluing the lives of these animals to a few megapixels on some SD card.

Is that who we really are as sportsmen? If this is representative of the demographic, perhaps the antis have a point.

If you go to Africa, take in the sights, the sounds and kill some stuff, take a few shots and walk away from the balance of your responsibility, you are in my opinion a killer only. Going on Safari, killing and walking away is no different than paying a woman for her services and throwing a few hundred bucks at her on your way out the door.

Perhaps reduce your trophy list by an animal or two and take some responsibility for your actions. Safari hunting isn't cheap, don't cheapen yourself.

I have an article coming out, or perhaps is out now in African Hunter stating these exact same thoughts.

We all see things differently.

"Shipping from Africa to Chicago was quoted at $1400"

Not so sure about this figure. We have been quoting regularly on Dip and Pack crates to the USA recently, and they run about $800 for the shipping. My Canadian representative shipped his 7 mounted animals from SA to Canada at $1500.

I was in RSA in 2013, took the god grandson. He got 5 animals. Had the hides tanned there, and the skulls cleaned and all. tanning was cheaper there, and from the quality I have seen of the stuff I had tanned here, better. Ended up cost like $900 if that for the dipping , tanning, shipping, etc., and another $600 for air fare. There is NOTHING hard about picking up your own stuff at customs. The only animals that need a separate USDA review are warthogs, or other pigs. Mine came into BWI and took me all of about 15 minutes, well, getting the forms signed by customs and driving next door to get the stuff, 1/2 hour. But you need to let the taxidermy folks in Africa, KNOW you will pick them up yourself, so you get the notice and can go to the customs office yourself, or they will be sent to freight person who will charge you $200 or so for nothing. How much your taxidermy bill in SA going to cost going to have a lot to do with what all you bring back. If you bring back a Kudu, Eland, Nyala, and Oryx, all are fairly big and going to need a bigger shipping crate, throw in the smaller stuff like a springbok, bushbuck etc. and takes up a little more room. The 5 animals we brought back, a Zebra, 2 Impala, a Black Wildebeeste and an Nyala, were in a crate about 18" tall, and 30x48" if that. If you got all the stuff I said above (kudu etc), would need a bigger crate, and cost more. For someone going over on a 5 or7 day hunt and getting the smaller plains game, the cleaning, dipping and shipping costs shouldn't be that expensive. As I noted, I got the hides tanned there, as was only a little more than drying and dusting, and such. If you do it that way is done and ready to go, when you get it back here. I also took pictures of the god grandson, and made poster size prints for him of him and his animals.

I am 100% sure but I do understand the game "buisness" of d, p & s

It seems everyone gets paid

Outfitter scratches the taxidermist back in East London.......gets a rebate

Taxidermist pushes work through "his" shipping agent.......gets a rebate

Shipping agent must make up for it all in the end and charges as much $$ as they feel fits

IMO.......it's a massive scam of holding the hunter over a barrel

I won't be a willing victim of this game......and wasn't

I don't disagree. That's why I'm contemplating a two animal safari. I'd shoot whatever good animal we came across the first day so I'd get to eat fresh meat all week and then I'd devote the rest of the hunt to a Kudu.

Those 2 animals may very well be the most expensive you ever kill

Since your a meat hunter......think Texas for safari

Ted,
I'm not saying that's not what you were charged. I assume that this was a couple of years ago. (Maybe let us know when you were charged this and through who?) Might help others to not fall into the same trap with the same people.
I'm just saying that the figures you posted looks expensive, even at what my hunters are paying in 2015.

With all due respect, article or no article, IMHO you couldn't be more wrong.

Let me see: If we take Chipolopolo's post seriously, it means that if we don't have EVERY big game animal we ever kill mounted, somehow, then we're irresponsible hunters. Gee, I didn't know taxidermy validated my experience, and made me a better person in the eyes of anti-hunters.

Yeah, but I'd feel kind of funny with a herd of cow elk staring at me.

Well, let's break it down.

What is the only cognitive difference between a photo safari and a shooting but pics only safari? Seems to me the only difference is the killing, hence my killing comment.

They are called Trophy fee's, trophy rooms, trophy shipping. You can't change the definition of trophy hunting simply to suit your needs.

I find just thrill killing repugnant behavior. And that is exactly what you are describing.

As far as mounting everything that I kill, yes, I do. But I would feel that Euro mounts, rugs, pillows whatever shows some feeling of responsibility to the animal.

The taking of life, to me, is not a casual endeavor. I have a great deal of respect for all life.

To my point about the Anti's. If they have an argument as to photo safaris, how are they wrong calling you a killer if that is THE ONLY difference between their safari and yours?

Not saying my motive are pure, just I have accepted the complete responsibility of the experience. I am not shortcutting it and lessening the cost just to go back sooner.

If I were a PH and my client was only taking photo's, you can be sure the real "decent" kudu would die and not get passed up in favor of continuing the hunt for something special.

Chipper, I was trying to be nice in my first response. Last year I took my first trip to Namibia. What a wonderful place, a place in which I literally saw hundreds upon hundreds of head of game over 8 days. I killed 10 cull animals, and only a couple of trophies. I could've felt like a douche for shooting all those culls, that is until we took some of the meat to what I'd call an orphanage of some sort, and the rest to a meat market where lots of other people would be able to enjoy the spoils. I don't feel the least bit bad about myself for killing, yes, I'm a killer, those animals. Not in the least. You see I have a soft spot for helping people who cannot help themselves for whatever reason. That's what I did. If it weren't for killers, like most if not all hunters are, wildlife would die a slow, cruel death. To answer your question, starving people can't eat pictures.

I've seen, the results of, and the remedies for overpopulation of a deer herd in Central Texas. Mother nature's way ain't always pretty.

As a matter of fact, I enjoyed killing those animals so much, an helping feed the poor over there, I'm doing the exact same thing again in April. I'm also very glad you aren't my PH, as we'd have a come to Jesus meeting somewhere in the middle of Africa.

Nice try.

Your introducing feeding the youths, while noble, is a straw man argument. Also, a cull hunt is in fact a discernible difference to which I have no objection to. Its called a cull hunt, not a trophy hunt.

You cannot be intellectually honest with me or this forum and say that you are going to feed disadvantaged children.

And, if you had a problem with me saving a 60 inch kudu for a client whom wanted to put it on the wall, I would call for a charter and send you home.

Not trying to. I'm going over to hunt and kill stuff. I'm going to enjoy it. I'm going to eat some of it. I'm going to give some away. I'm not gonna give a ratsazzz what you think of it. Fair enough?

Fair enough, why not just say that in response to my first post on the subject? Pics or Trophies?

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"Thrill killing." You can't be serious. Do you disagree with the famous quote by Ortega y Gasset?

Nope, you'll have to enlighten me. I have not of heard of Ortega

Always willing to learn something new.

I would think that someone writing articles on this subject would know that quote.

"One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted."

There's adequate room for both of our philosophies. All my post's refer to my own feelings. Last time I checked this was a forum for the free exchange of thoughts and ideas.

Personally, I won't pull the trigger unless there is further engagement. Whether it be for meat here in the states or for trophies overseas. I see no reason otherwise.

In my younger days, my first few safari's were in fact "whack-n-stack" affairs. Now, I'm more patient and selective.

I agree there's room for more than one philosophy, there are many reasons people hunt. That's why I was puzzled by your quote to JG below, you seemed to be casting aspersions on his reasons to hunt:



And yes, it is a forum for free exchange of ideas, that's what I'm doing.

I suppose it could be seen as overly aggressive. If it was taken that way, I do apologize.

But again it was my opinion.

No apology necessary (to me anyway), we're just exchanging ideas freely!

And we've all got opinions, but... I still fail to see how hanging a trophy on the wall makes me a better hunter, shows more respect for the animal, or makes my hunt better than the fellow who elects to simply take some photos... Or maybe takes home one or two skull mounts and a flat skin, rather than a museum full of taxidermy mounts.

The actual physical trophy on the wall means very little more to me than does a photo on the wall - often the photo means more as it probably has me, as well as my sons, my father, or my friends with whom I shared the hunt.

Ah well. Different opinions.

As some have stated, there is almost no more room in my home for more "stuff" hanging on the walls. I've taken to giving away trophies in recent years. Not that I had anything all that splendid I suppose anyway.

Always a learning experience here at The Fire.

Feel free to completely disregard my opinion as I've not yet hunted Africa.

Regards, Guy

My hunt was June 2014 the d&p charges were quoted at that time

The shipping quote was received December 2014

If you or anyone out there want names do PM as I won't name drop on an open forum

That's exactly what I'm going to do. Go, enjoy the hunt and memories, leave the trophies there except for maybe one european mount. I want to go to Africa, the hunt and airfare will be a lot. I can't afford all those mounts. Africa is one of my bucket list hunts.

Hi Guy,

Your opinion is as valid as is anyones, regardless you've been to Africa or not.

Would you feel it's OK to shoot a Mule Deer here in the USA, take pictures and walk away?

I don't think it makes you a better hunter, in my opinion, it makes you a more responsible sportsman. You've taken the steps to personally be completely responsible for the entire process.

This is a relatively new mindset. I feel it's a product of the internet. We just desire megapixel proof we've been to Africa. Slathering Facebook with hunting TROPHY pictures is all to common. Truth be known it will be the end of international sport hunting. We as sportsmen have been responsible for the rapid coming end of hunting Elephants and Lions.

My wife told me back in 2004, "You better go kill a lion before its too late" I did, she was right. She also told me the same about polar bear hunting and it was too late.

We are guilty of creating our own demise. I have a personal philosophy about how we should conduct ourselves in public and on the internet about this. "The first rule of fight club…..don't talk about fight club."

If those who would stop our sport can't see it happening, they can't stop that which they don't know.

Chipolopolo

I disagree with almost everything you've said I this thread

So much so I find myself shaking my head in disbelief

Ted,

Killing is a different thing to all of us. Don't try to paint me as some anti. I promise your going down the wrong road there. I have hunted nearly every African country that is legal to hunt and some that are closed since I've been there. I've killed the Big Five nearly 2 times and have killed nearly every species of Antelope on the continent.

Time changes how we feel about nearly everything. I have killed animals at times in a very sloppy manner. I've seen these badly shot animals cling to life so hard that I wanted nothing more than for this animal to die quickly and as painlessly as is possible.

Seeing this so many times has given me an opinion about that value of life…all life. If I devalue that life, to mere megapixels, I would sooner quit hunting. And regardless of what anyone posts thats what this is.

More megapixels = less taxidermy= more hunting.

Like I said......I do not share your point of view

to be clear, "Hunting in Africa" you feel no further responsibility to your prey after killing it than a picture?

Taxidermy has never been a responsibility of any hunter

Heads on a wall mean nothing

They are however the means that some men measures ones dick it seams

You didn't really answer the question.

My position isn't just about heads on the wall. Rugs, Euro mounts, horns on a board whatever.

Nothing but pics is my question? (unless it's a cull)

It's seems.

All of my horrns are mostly in a big box in my barn.......some I gave away

My 2014 PG hunt was 10 days and 11 different species of game

Nothing giant but not a cull hunt

Only pictures.....lots of pictures

If you sent nothing home how did you come up with all these fee's?

Re-read the post and your question is answered

Chipolopolo,

I find it astonishing that somebody who claims to have thought so deeply about sport hunting has never read Jose Ortega y Gasset.

I find it equally astonishing that you could seriously post this about taking and displaying trophy photos: "We as sportsmen have been responsible for the rapid coming end of hunting Elephants and Lions."

Trophy hunters, whatever their motivation, are among the primary reasons there IS any hunting for lions and elephants. If not for the safari industry's money and time in the field, more African wildlife would disappear, as it has in countries where safari hunting has been shut down. What happens then is poaching takes over, normally with the complicity of the country's government officials. Poaching of lions and elephants is big business these days, and can usually be traced back to Chinese demand, whether for "medicinal" or status desires. That is the real threat to both species, NOT posting photos on Facebook.

Chipolopolo - I do truly love hunting mule deer by the way...

All of them that I've hunted & killed ended up in my freezer. Some ended up on the wall. A few never even got a photo, but they did go in the freezer. Never felt a need to hang them all on the wall.

I do understand the value of a trophy. Have a couple of bear rugs, a good elk rack, a few mulie skull/euro mounts, and what not around. By no means though do all of my kills end up as a taxidermy mount.

It's the experience of the hunt I'm after. I do enjoy the meat, and I enjoy having a few "trophies" around. There's a bear skull nearby, on the bookshelf. The big elk antlers are on the wall near where I'm banging away on this silly computer..

Some of my best/favorite "trophies" though are photos of hunts with family and friends. Not the antlers on the wall, or the rug draped over the back of the couch. Those are cool, but not required for me to feel I've fully participated in the hunt.

Venison... Now that's good stuff!

Apparently opinions do vary... And that's fine. Well done taxidermy is pretty impressive. It's just not necessary for me.

Regards, Guy

In Chinyenja (Zambia) there is no native word for "game." The word they use means "meat" and that's all it is to them. If it weren't for sport hunters and their dollars giving value to the game, all there would be is meat…and not much of that.

Mule Deer,

You surely can't be serious. I don't need to have read Gasset to have deeply seeded moral and philosophical beliefs as to these thoughts. I read much and write some.

My point about Facebook missed it's mark with you. I personally have done much for conservation all throughout Africa, I dare say substantially more than most have.

The point is this; The great unwashed masses of Americans that sit on the fence about hunting for Lions and Elephants are being educated by our opposition. The pictures all over Facebook, allow our opposition to define us, we do not have the opportunity to define ourselves. public opinion my friend.

Lets say the entire universe of African hunters is 10,000 per year. (Craig Boddingtons numbers, not mine) out of that 10K perhaps 1000 shoot a Jumbo. there are right around 400 lions shot yearly. some of those Lion hunters surely contain some of the same Elephant hunters so lets say the number is 1200.

So, out of 350 million Americans there are 1200 that hunt Lions and Elephants. You think we are going to win with those numbers? I don't.

They only way to push the end as far down the road as is possible is, for us the KEEP OUR COLLECTIVE MOUTHS SHUT. (keeping the photos off social media) I am well aware of the hunter/conservation model. I served on the BOD of SCI for 11 years, so I get it. Lots of people react as you do when they first read or hear my message. What we are doing isn't working.

I hunted CAR last year for 24 days. In 24 days, I only saw a handful of Elephant tracks. All those tracks had human tracks in tow. During the days and some nights we could hear AK47's off in the distance. The Sudanese Elephant Poachers, killing Elephants to fund their human rights atrocities in Sudan. The Chinese purchase the ivory, it's no secret, there isn't a politician alive with the appetite to take on China.

These poachers are hard men, walking around in the bush, some on donkeys. They kill the Elephants, remove the ivory and walk behind the camel trains loaded with ivory to Khartoum where they sell the ivory. I ran into a group of 7 riding on donkeys. These were the fiercest looking men I 'd ever seen. Their long thin faces told me everything I needed to know. They wore jungle fatigues and berets. Their donkeys had blankets on their backs, hiding the AK's from sight. They bore no hostility towards myself or the hunting party. Just traded glances and we parted ways

Our goals are mutual, our passions the same. I just think the way to further our own effort is to keep under the radar. Not a troll, a passionate sportsman. Not afraid to engage, willing to learn.

The word is Nyama.

If you're talking about leaving the carcass there, it doesn't matter what Guy feels, it's against the law, a felony in some states. Recovering the meat for human consumption is required.

So if the meat is recovered and used by the locals, tell me again what makes a hunter more "ethical" if he makes the heads into trophies?

keeping our mouths shut is what has gotten us into this position....keeping normal hunting and butchering of critters for food behind closed doors as much as possible in order to "spare peoples feelings" is why so many think hunting is bad today....fence sitters have gone to the anit side cause we have been so polite that they think even we are ashamed of what we are doing and trying to hide it....

which is also part of the reason i live where i do, hung up a deer in my front yard and the only reaction i got was the neighbor across the street yelling pointers from their front step cause i wasnt butchering like they do but hunting is considered a normal healthy activity by the general public here cause its never been hidden to spare peoples feelings....

I appreciate the "take no prisoners attitude" Just doesn't work anymore.

The problem is simply numbers. With a constituency of 1200 nationally, what politician will take on this argument. They are spineless bureaucrats who's only goal is re-election. Fighting public opinion to support Lion and Elephant hunting isn't going to win anyone any elections.

I think we are down to just a few years left for both Elephants and Lions.

the keeping quiet attitude hasnt worked for the last 30 years.....might aswell try something else......

Chipolopolo,

Believe me, I have also seen the results of intense elephant poaching in Africa--and run into elephant poachers while on safari. All except one of the poachers were killed the next day by anti-poaching patrol, which is why they ran from us when we encountered them. (I sure wouldn't have shot any of them, but the Tanzanian game scout would have, if he hadn't left his rifle in the Land Cruiser, less than 100 yards away.) We also found dozens of elephant skulls, of all sizes, with the tusks chopped off, and very few elephants. I just talked to the PH at the SCI convention, and he isn't even offering elephant hunts anymore, in what a decade ago was one of the best elephant areas in Tanzania.

And yet you still claim that a handful of American trophy hunters posting photos on Facebook has anything approaching that impact? Or that NOT posting will delay the inevitable result of far too many other problems for Africa's wildlife? Oh, sorry, I forgot, you're trying to delay the death of our sport.

You should have read Ortega y Gasset a long time ago, because that might have prevented you from somehow falling for the notion that hanging a head on the wall somehow ennobles both us and the animal.
You have also failed to explain why heads on the wall are somehow so much better than photos on the wall. Is it because of the "educational" qualities of taxidermy that so many trophy hunters espouse? Museums have been doing that a lot longer than yet another generation of safari hunters.

I have plenty of African taxidermy on my walls, but quit bringing heads back a few safaris ago. In fact am probably not going to on any more big game safaris, though might go back to photograph in parks or reserves--which I have always spent some time doing in the days before or after my hunting safaris.

But I have taken all the African animals I ever dreamed of (which did not include lions or elephants), and hunting them took me far deeper into their lives, and the wild parts of Africa, than any amount of photography on game reserves--just as hunting elk or grizzly bears takes North American hunters into places they couldn't imagine or predict far more than visiting Yellowstone Park with a telephoto lens.

Yes, a well-taxidermed head is a fine symbol of a hunting memory, but I gave my best-ever kudu head to my PH, because at that stage of my hunting life I realized it meant more to him than to me. What meant more to me was the actual hunt, and how it led me into places I couldn't have anticipated with only a camera instead of a rifle in my hand.

He was thrilled, and I was quite happy with the photos of him and me and a fine day in Africa. But neither the head nor the photos of us have any meaning other than a stirring of the memory of hunting days, how kudu steak tastes, learning new birds and trees, and climbing yet another hill to see what's on the other side. Which is apparently something you somehow cannot understand: A trophy is only as valuable as the memories it stirs, because taxiderming a head only delays the inevitable breakdown of the animal we kill. And that delay only really means something to us, not the world at large.

I'm not saying you don't appreciate the hunt itself, or everything connected with the experience, but like Ruark you're confusing a symbol of the hunt with something deeper inside the experience of the hunt. Which is probably why you believe that not posting trophy photos on the Internet will somehow delay the inevitable decline of African big game, a decline due to issues as complex and perhaps unknowable as the essence of hunting itself.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts MD. I appreciate your knowledge and experience.

I'm not confusing the symbolism of the trophy, I'm honoring the entire process. I do not expect to change minds or see it my way. It is simply how I feel about my hunting. To me it is nearly spiritual. I feel a connection to my prey that is more than symbolic, it's…primal.

I will spend 45 days in Zambia and Tanzania this year. I will likely kill 30-35 animals and will find a way to get it all home. Some will be full mounts, some will be shoulder mounts and others yet will simply be Euro mounts. (Buffalo, can't mount any more)

The problem with internet forums are they are hostile to some extent and not open minded. Especially when it comes to posters with low counts vs posters with high post counts. Cliques rear their heads, and content sometimes isn't as important as supporting an internet friend.

I've enjoyed this lively debate but no problems were solved, seasons weren't extended and quota's were not raised.

Regards to all!

After paragraphs of babel......I agree with little to nothing you put forth

Heads on a wall do nothing to "honor" an animal

Chip,

The more you post, the more you reveal, but probably not in the way you want.

I'll take that as the insult it was intended to be. Hell it's an internet forum.

Gentleman,
I understand and can appreciate what Chipolopolo is trying to say. Sometimes, it is very difficult to relay your thoughts from a keyboard. I don't think we need to rag him about it. I respect him for his views on appreciating his kills.

I also fully agree with the FACT that Taxidermy is a substantial outlay of funds. There is no use for us to try and hide it and carry on as if it's not. I have had some hunters come in and only take photos of their safari and their trophies. The notion that a smaller animal will get hunted, just because there will only be a photo, could not be further from the truth. Well, I only speak on behalf of KMG Hunting Safaris. The photos will be on our website, Facebook page etc. and is a direct window into the service and quality you can expect to hunting with us.

You will only be shooting yourself in the foot by hunting substandard game.

Well said, and I couldn't agree more.

I thought this was a great debate and both sides made excellent points. I come at this as a neutral. I'm no trophy hunter and I'm a meat hunter so I don't really have a dog in this hunt. But it has been a great thread.

Yes some interesting discussion on both sides. I do not think taxdermy has to be done to honor an animal.

Gents:
I just read this and find the debate lively. I understand Chip's philosophy and he has a magnificent trophy room and his trophies are his memories and legacy. We all do it differently but we all like to hunt. I've been severely hammered for my posts on fair chase vs. high fenced hunting and for my personal love of vintage English double rifles and my choice to own and hunt with them exclusively. The bottom line is what is right is what is right for each of us individually. We get hell at times for expressing our opinion but our opinion is only right for the opinion's owner. At the end of the day we are all the target of the antis and Chip has a good point in the numbers of hunters in Africa, the (approximate) number of those taking elephant and lion, the the number of US citizens and why politicians won't champion our cause. I never put it in that perspective but it is a powerful lesson. In the long run we all all fighting a losing battle. Look at our losses in both hunting and gun rights over the past 1-2-3-4-5 decades. I think we best agree to disagree as gentlemen because we are in the same boat. It does not matter if we spend a fortune on taxidermy for whatever reason, leave our trophies in the field, hunt with a double rifle or a modern whiz bang magnum. The ship is sinking and we are too busy fighting amongst ourselves and not bailing water in unison to keep us afloat. And l before you get on my case, I have done it all: taxidermy, European mounts, leaving the trophy in the field, donating taxidermy, etc., I've even made the excuse I am feeding the Africans by killing the game there (which I have and did, but that is not the reason I've hunted anywhere--it is a sideline to my endeavor). I read Ortega's words years ago and have also read many who think he was in error.
I trust and hope you all have a pleasant day and a great next hunt--no matter what you hunt with, what you do with the trophy, or your rationale for doing so.
Cheers,
Cal
PS. I've often wondered if we would be as rude to one another if everyone knew our real names or if we were standing face to face.

We did a family trip (wife and three sons) a few years ago that could have been a serious Tanzania hunt for me. But I am not the selfish [bleep].

JFC, its the Savage99 of Africa.

Cal and KMG:

First, you hit the nail on the head in that we all have a right to our opinions, as long as we're within legal and ethical bounds.

Conversely, when we see someone who calls himself a hunter engaging in activities that are clearly unethical or have the potential to damage hunting in the eyes of neutral observers, we have a responsibility to call out that behavior.

The only reason I bring up that second point is, I believe chip went a good bit beyond the former and was engaging in what he believes to be the latter.





Saying that others who don't get heads mounted are "devaluing the wildlife" and are "killers only" and "walking away from their responsibility" or are "thrill killers" engaging in "repugnant behavior" is doing a lot more than stating a personal ethic or opinion, it's telling others how to do it and denigrating them in the process.

And there are lots who don't agree. If we're really talking about how the antis see us as chip says, the future of hunting and what needs to be done to preserve it, I think those that disagree have not only the right to speak up, but the duty.

As an aside, some have noted the desire to do a safari, but limited means to pay for it all, including taxidermy. Does anyone really think that making a safari more expensive by including taxidermy in the price will help get more hunters to go on safari?

Hmmmm, promised myself I'd stay out of this, but my last safari, i guess I went on the greatest "thrill killing" safari ever. It was tuskless cow elephant in Zim. The animal is non exportable. It fed a village. The most fantastic, yet humbling, hunt I ever went on. So Chippie I guess I'm a thrill killer, cause all I got was pics......


maddog

Good morning Smkepole.

If you were to take a quick look back, I qualify all my statements as my opinion. They might be looked at as extreme, but extreme measures are called for when we are fighting for our collective lives here (metaphorically).

If the eventual sunset on Africa occurs in my hunting lifetime, I will have had a life well lived. I am willing to put myself in harms way to advocate for our sport. As you say, isn't it our responsibility to call out behavior we see as unethical? I don't really call the pics or mounts topic as unethical but irresponsible to the way we are looked at by the rank and file American.

Years ago, there was a woman Lion advocate troll over on AR. I went head to head with her for months and months. We actually talked on the phone several times. At that time I was of the mentality, "dig your heels in, and fight, don't give an inch."

I wasn't on FB at the time. I subsequently did a mountain bike race across America called the Tour Divide, which is the longest race in the cycling world. I did it for a charity that is near and dear to my heart, Special Olympics. I started a FB page with the help of SO for fund raising.

After seeing how the dynamic of FB works and the global reach it has, I saw that social media has negatively affected our sport. Hell, quasi celebrity hunters like Tim Herald have had their pages taken down due to the content. If that isn't hostile waters, what is?

It made me re-think my position. My thoughts on it now is to take a page from the old Brad Pitt movie "Fight Club" The first rule of fight club…don't talk about fight club.

The point being, public opinion does and will matter now. The globe is smaller and we live in a digital world. That woman I speak of got her information off the pages of AR. She worked for Lionaid.

Remember how Donald Trumps kids got hammered on FB? or the owner of Go Daddy? or the 19 year old cheerleader? the list goes on and on.

Bottom line here is, I am willing to take the slings and arrows on behalf of hunting globally. If just one reader thinks about it and re-thinks his/her position I will feel it was worth it.

Always had a problem with this statement. I hunt with the intent to kill - sometimes just for the table and other times for the wall and table. If I don't kill, I still have hunted. If you follow his logic, if you don't kill you haven't hunted? Hunting is the act of pursuit - sometimes you win, sometimes they win.
His clever twist on the terminology is just that.

Good morning to you, Chip. You can say "this is my opinion" all you want, but when you apply it to others as you clearly did by calling it "repugnant behavior" and "walking away from your responsibility," it's going well beyond just stating your own personal beliefs.



Chip, we are in violent agreement that public opinion does matter; that is not the issue so don't think you can claim the high ground by saying that. We just disagree on what that public opinion is.

I believe the general public has a lower opinion of what they perceive as "trophy hunting," meaning putting heads on the wall, than someone who uses the meat and only keeps photos.

Because I've heard them say it. What is the basis of your belief that the general public thinks it's better or more ethical to hang trophy heads on a wall?

That's not what he's saying at all. What he's saying is, the killing part of hunting is not the only reason we hunt, or even the most important for some. If the killing was the most important, we'd wouldn't need to hunt at all, we'd all be more successful at the feed lot.

Yes, you can hunt without killing every time out, but if you never killed anything, you may as well take up crocheting.

I don't agree with the statement either. I pass up a fair amount of animals just because I don't feel like killing them. I haven't filled a Doe tag since 2011, and I've had them every year. And its certainly not because I don't see deer. I find I often go home more satisfied having watched the animal and not killed it. Now if I need meat (or want it) then I'm pulling the trigger. But the boy has been getting deer these past few years and I just don't need to make a kill. And that suits me fine. And yes, I have indeed hunted.

I think it matters as to what degree we as a demographic devolve the process of hunting.

If I were to post on here that; "I really don't want the pictures, I just want to shoot a bunch" or "I only want shots of 800 yards or better" at which point does an individuals sensibilities get uneasy? There must be some line where rank and file sportsmen agree is too much.

There are costs involved in hunting that you can't get away from. Travel, TF's, tips and others I am obviously leaving out.

The fact that International hunting is expensive will unfortunately leave some who want to go out. BUT, to mentally erase some of the historic costs to make it less expensive is where the lines get blurred. There was a tipping thread over on AR. There were guys that said they were OK to NOT tip the PH so they could afford the trip. I didn't agree with that either.


I also think that by you pointing out my admittedly aggressive disposition on this, aren't you making this about me rather than the subject? I am merely human, I am trying to articulate feelings here that are not easy to explain. If I were just milk toast about it, it wouldn't be being discussed and it wouldn't have been cross posted over on AR.

I don't post to be accepted or popular, as a VERY good friend of mine once told me;

"When I read I wish to learn, when I write I wish to teach."

I am simply trying to share some different thoughts about the consequences of many of our actions in an ever shrinking digital world. And yes, I think trophy shipping is ridiculous. I had a shipment from CAR cost me 6,600.00 just to get to Houston.