Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats Kreiger vs Bartlein

Do they specify their test criterion?

It was 3/8 MOA not 1/3. Am sure saw "match grade factory" ammo specified but did not see it when looked back at the site. This is on some GAP rifles. Does not guarantee that they will average this. That is the kicker.....

My shpeal about why I get so few groups under 1/2"

If we plug in the average wind speed for the USA, 7.4 mph, with the average long range competition rifle, a 308 with 155 palma bullet at 2900 fps, we get some errors:

50 yards = 0.35 moa = 0.175" -> you can hit a fly
100 yards =0.72 moa =0.72" -> you can hit a mouse
200 yards =1.42 moa =2.8" -> you can hit a bunny rabbit
400 yards =3.01 moa =12" -> you can hit a deer
800 yards =7.22 moa =58" -> you can hit a car
1600 yards =18.77 moa =300" -> you can hit a bus

And if anyone knows a way of predicting when the wind at the Issaquah range when it opens at noon, 1/2 hour from my house in WA, has less than 7.6 mph gusty wind, I would like to know.

What I do do, is stay in Eastern MT for a month before hunting, and target practice at 500 yards at sun up on those days when the flag is hanging straight down. When the wind is 15 mph, I don't hunt.

Chose the one you can get quickest.

Can't go wrong with either.

There was a guy here that used to say that all his McWhorter custom rifles averaged 1/4 MOA. I don't doubt that McWhorter rifles are very accurate, but a hunting weight rifle that averages 1/4 MOA is a lofty claim to be sure. I had a 6mm Remington 40X with a 2 ounce trigger that shot tons of 1/4 inch 5 shot groups with several different bullets, but to say it would always shoot groups that small would be BS. Took me awhile to get used to that 2 oz trigger.

If I was answering I'd say not every shot I make is perfect and you dang sure know it when its not in any position, especially sandbagged.

Then there is mirage to deal with.

The gun COULD be .25 moa, but the conditions or shooter not allow it to be shot to that level all the time.

Me, I'd take either barrel any time and I'd add Rock into that bunch quickly as I would Obermeyer.

Lets not forget Broughton barrels either. A while back BobinNH and I were spit balling back and forth about Cut vs Button regarding accuracy, and I went to the 1000 yard BR Club site in PA to look at the winners list of equipment used and it was a toss up between Broughton, Bartlein and Krieger. I've always maintained that if one method was clearly better than the other, everyone would be using them. As far as topics here being beat to death, it would have to be than one, pick one rifle and my all time favorite, push feed vs. CRF. Of course any thread involving the 270 gets honorable mention as well.

.22 cal centerfire for deer posts seem to a recent favorite campfire subject and gets folks all upset.

22 centerfire?
If mule bucks average 205 pounds and bull elk average 700 pounds, then the average cartridge for bull elk, the 30-06 should be 3.4 x bigger than the average mule buck cartridge.

That would be a 180 gr 2700 fps bullet for bull elk
That would be a 53 gr 2700 fps bullet for mule bucks.

So the 223 would be overpowered..... er do we justify whatever rifle we can carry that weights 10 pounds?

That's it. What ever we do, we justify.

See.... 😀

All of my big game rifles are consistently sub-1/4 MOA for 1-shot groups.

What do you think shooting 5 shot groups does to the average vs. a three shot group? So you are never going to shrink the group after three shots. How much do you worsen it on average with 5? It pains me to upset a three shot cloverleaf with 2 more shots. Inevitably it turns it into a sub-par group.

That's because three shots aren't enough to show how widely shots will spread from a rifle, even with its most accurate load. In fact five aren't either, but they're a much better predictor than three. Even super-accurate benchrest rifles will shoot larger 5-shot groups than 3-shot groups.

Generally, 5-shot groups will average about 1-1/2 times as large as 3-shot groups.

Also gives you 2 more chances to pull one and blow up your nice group. I had a single, not very ragged, hole going one time with a .22 and shot 5 made it a half inch group at 50y.

Consider that GAP builds a lot of the precision rifles used in competition and GAP uses Bartlien. That may explain the numbers.

AZ are these the guys RinB is referring to, who shoot a lot of GAP rifles? GAP uses Bartlein.Like RinB said that might be why those numbers are tilted the way they are?

I used to order my Kreigers through my gunsmith as part of his batch orders....says he doesn't do it anymore. It takes him up to a year to get a batch because bigger outfits like Bruno's and others get the big orders.

Point is someone is buying and shooting lots of Kreigers

The Bartlien must shoot better the other 50%

Looks to me they are the same/same, might be new math.

But what does it prove? That we could shoot a really small target five times in a row if our lives depended on it?

We could go from 3 to 5 to 10 to 25 to 50................

Give me a rifle that will shoot the first shot where I aim, rain or shine and have the other two land somewhere inside 1.5" from the first and I'm happy. I have a Kreiger barrel that will shoot partitions, TSX's, LRX's, Accubonds...... all consistently under an inch (3 shots), all to the same point of aim, all at least to 400 yds, cold or hot. But I have people that tell me that their hunting rifles are more accurate. Big deal.

We use multiple shots because we all recognize that a single shot is not a valid predictor of where the next shot is going to go. If that were not the case, when zeroing our rifles, we would all be happy with putting one shot in the POA and calling it good (admittedly there are some folks that actually do this…) Most folks in the three-shot camp use said number because, "you'll never get more than three shots at a deer anyway" or maybe because "after three the barrel heats up and it starts walking." These folks are missing the point and if they would investigate a little farther, would see that clearly. What most folks attribute to the barrel getting hot, etc, isn't...

The idea with shooting more than one shot at a target is to have a high level of confidence in where your next bullet is going to go. Three shots will not tell you this. If anyone doubts that, I challenge them to do this: shoot a three shot group, let the barrel cool completely (mainly because it will make them feel better) and then shoot another three shot group at the same exact POA. What you will find is that the six shots resulting from the two three-shot groups will be considerably larger than the original three shots. If you really want to have a better idea of what's going on, then shoot yet another group of three at the same POA. You could continue to stack groups but, the more shots you put into the group, the less difference you will see. For me, ten shots total gives me a high level of confidence of what the rifle will really do. I'm not a statistician, but someone like Mathman or Denton could explain standard distribution, a bell curve, the tails of the curve and why, as you put more shots into your group that it eventually appears to quit growing.

In the process of doing this, you will discover that the "flier" that spoiled your three shot group isn't a flier at all, but rather just a glimpse of how accurate (or inaccurate) that particular rifle/load combo really is.

The one real problem with this process is that it really destroys a bunch of the "half inch all day long" rigs you read so much about on the internet. There were actually a couple of folks that weren't afraid to try this and posted their results on CTSmith's thread about his Kimber Montana. You have to read through the whole thread to pick it out, but it's worth doing:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/9340317/1

I think it was Mule Deer that posted once that if you have a hunting weight rig that will keep ten in one MOA you really have something special. That has been my observation as well.

John

Why??

This thread/topic is useless.....could you pick between a Ferrari or a Lamborghini??

The barrel chambering/installation is more critical than barrel brand!!!