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Joined: Jun 2004
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 11,116 Likes: 2 |
I ran across some interesting info yesterday, background information on the development of the M855. Seems like it is worth sharing: slide show, see slide 10 2012 article by the same NATO official In both, the author says, with respect to the development of the SS109/M855: There was no requirement to penetrate body armor. Then there is the case of P.O. Ackley in the 1940s, who showed that a regular factory load lead core 220 Swift bullet will penetrate a 1/2" thick armor plate from the front of a half-track. And finally, the video that shows that M855 will not penetrate AR500 steel body armor, Brinnell Hardness 500. Surprisingly, 55 grain lead core bullets, probably moving faster than the 62 grain M855, will penetrate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMYkEMhPsO8It's blindingly obvious that M855 does not present any extraordinary hazard vs. common rifle cartridges. So, yeah, I'm preaching to the choir, but it seemed worth passing along.
Be not weary in well doing.
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 19,825 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 19,825 Likes: 3 |
The greatest "takeaways" I got from that article are, first, SHOT PLACEMENT is the most important factor in lethality (go figure!  ) and, second, TRAINING is more important than caliber selection! Whoda thunk it?  Thanks for sharing that! Ed
"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 14,731 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 14,731 Likes: 2 |
Don't 'kornfuse' the AH with factual information!
Even birds know not to land downwind!
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Joined: Aug 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 43,780 Likes: 3 |
ATF director B. Todd Jones admitted to a Senate committee that all types of 223 ammo represent a danger to law enforcement due to it being able to penetrate common police body armor.
"Any 5.56 round” is “a challenge for officer safety"
And he flat out asked them for help in expanding the 1986 law that defines AP so that more types of ammo can be banned.
Their goal is simply to ban what they can now, whether it makes anybody in the world safer or not. Because what they don't ban today, they want to ban tomorrow.
“ The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”. All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered. Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
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Joined: Jan 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 59,180 Likes: 3 |
ATF director B. Todd Jones admitted to a Senate committee that all types of 223 ammo represent a danger to law enforcement due to it being able to penetrate common police body armor.
"Any 5.56 round” is “a challenge for officer safety"
And he flat out asked them for help in expanding the 1986 law that defines AP so that more types of ammo can be banned.
Their goal is simply to ban what they can now, whether it makes anybody in the world safer or not. Because what they don't ban today, they want to ban tomorrow. EXACTLY!!!
Ex- USN (SS) '66-'69
Pro-Constitution.
LET'S GO BRANDON!!!
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Joined: Oct 2008
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,178 |
Good idea not to give the Army a round that penetrates their own armour.
I've got one word for the ATF ...
KRINK!
TRUMP- GABBARD 2024
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 986
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 986 |
I ran across some interesting info yesterday, background information on the development of the M855. Seems like it is worth sharing: slide show, see slide 10 2012 article by the same NATO official In both, the author says, with respect to the development of the SS109/M855: There was no requirement to penetrate body armor. Then there is the case of P.O. Ackley in the 1940s, who showed that a regular factory load lead core 220 Swift bullet will penetrate a 1/2" thick armor plate from the front of a half-track. And finally, the video that shows that M855 will not penetrate AR500 steel body armor, Brinnell Hardness 500. Surprisingly, 55 grain lead core bullets, probably moving faster than the 62 grain M855, will penetrate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMYkEMhPsO8It's blindingly obvious that M855 does not present any extraordinary hazard vs. common rifle cartridges. So, yeah, I'm preaching to the choir, but it seemed worth passing along. And with the reduced velocity out of a pistol barrel, they penetrate even less. In fact the U.S. military has gone AWAY from the M855 for the M4 carbines because the M193s penetrate better out of the short barrels.
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Joined: Mar 2006
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,237 |
I ran across some interesting info yesterday, background information on the development of the M855. Seems like it is worth sharing: slide show, see slide 10 2012 article by the same NATO official In both, the author says, with respect to the development of the SS109/M855: There was no requirement to penetrate body armor. Then there is the case of P.O. Ackley in the 1940s, who showed that a regular factory load lead core 220 Swift bullet will penetrate a 1/2" thick armor plate from the front of a half-track. And finally, the video that shows that M855 will not penetrate AR500 steel body armor, Brinnell Hardness 500. Surprisingly, 55 grain lead core bullets, probably moving faster than the 62 grain M855, will penetrate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMYkEMhPsO8It's blindingly obvious that M855 does not present any extraordinary hazard vs. common rifle cartridges. So, yeah, I'm preaching to the choir, but it seemed worth passing along. And with the reduced velocity out of a pistol barrel, they penetrate even less. In fact the U.S. military has gone AWAY from the M855 for the M4 carbines because the M193s penetrate better out of the short barrels. I believe they are transitioning to M855A1 with a copper body and hardened steel tip. Penetrates way better and supposedly wounds more. And it's "green". http://www.americanrifleman.org/art...e-army-s-m855a1-standard-ball-cartridge/
molɔ̀ːn labé skýla
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 21,810
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 21,810 |
I ran across some interesting info yesterday, background information on the development of the M855. Seems like it is worth sharing: slide show, see slide 10 2012 article by the same NATO official In both, the author says, with respect to the development of the SS109/M855: There was no requirement to penetrate body armor. Then there is the case of P.O. Ackley in the 1940s, who showed that a regular factory load lead core 220 Swift bullet will penetrate a 1/2" thick armor plate from the front of a half-track. And finally, the video that shows that M855 will not penetrate AR500 steel body armor, Brinnell Hardness 500. Surprisingly, 55 grain lead core bullets, probably moving faster than the 62 grain M855, will penetrate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMYkEMhPsO8It's blindingly obvious that M855 does not present any extraordinary hazard vs. common rifle cartridges. So, yeah, I'm preaching to the choir, but it seemed worth passing along. Very interesting presentation and article. Lessons for all.
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 15,753 Likes: 5
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 15,753 Likes: 5 |
This past Sunday I chronographed some LC 855 and some XM193F (Federal) from a Sig with a 20" barrel and got 3230 fps for the "green tip" and 3350 fps for the XM193.
What bothers me is, what are they going to do when that almost all hunting rounds will blow through it too? Take a guess!!!
NRA Life,Endowment,Patron or Benefactor since '72.
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 11,116 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 11,116 Likes: 2 |
what are they going to do when that almost all hunting rounds will blow through it too? They are going to have a hissy fit, and I am going to watch and enjoy it. Since Heller, ammunition is as protected as firearms. The government must have an overriding interest (lots of police killed by M855) and the legal solution must be narrowly tailored. None of what's on the table meets either condition. They could make a case for a specific type of ammunition if they could show that it poses a special hazard to society. So the ban on tungsten core armor piercing ammunition is probably constitutional and proper. But M855 poses no special hazard and cannot be singled out. Neither can they ban all rifle ammunition. The SCOTUS justices would roll their eyes, say "not this $hit again" and strike down the ban. If M855 is like all other rifle ammunition in common use, the game may go on for a while but the winner is already decided.
Last edited by denton; 03/17/15.
Be not weary in well doing.
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