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Thanks for doing the testing and reporting back the results. Interesting stuff.
How compressed is your dry newsprint that you fire your bullets into? I want to test some 140 AB's out of a .270 Win. Thanks
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Campfire Ranger
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MD I knew you would do the work. But seriously, I hate to be the dumbest guy on the post (sometimes it can't be helped). If Nosler builds the AB for terminal performance on game like their NP, why not shoot the NP. As you've pointed out, the trajectory is not that different. I'm not going to speak for AD, but I think that's his point. My point is even if it is a batch problem (and we can hope for an answer to that), why take a chance if your main interest is putting game in the bag? T <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
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Campfire Ranger
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Also MD, I sort of posed this question before. If it's not a fair question to ask of you, never mind.
T
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Compressed dry newspaper, phone books and magazines are more dense and harder than wood. That is why I don't use them for testing bullets, except to compare against other such tests.
All bullet manufacturers use a standard ballistic gelatin, at the same temperature, indoors.
I make my own media, which is an artificial clay, and is not very sensitive to temperature, so I can use it for long sessions outside, even in hot, muggy weather.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Lonny--
I stack newspapers into standard paper grocery sacks, which results in a 6" thickness inside the stack. Then I fit three of these sacks tightly into a 12x18 cardboard box, and shoot the newspapers around the middle. They are pretty tightly stacked but not compressed.
Over decades of experiments I have found this pretty well simulates the results from a bullet that encounters heavy bone. But you need to shoot several bullets into the paper to get a fair idea of what they will do on game. One of the advantages of this setup is that you can shoot several bullets into the same batch of paper. I have shot up to 5 into the same stack, as one is not enough. In my last test with the new Speer Grand Slams, for instance, 5 of the 200-grainers shot from a .300 Winchester into the paper at close range resulted in 3 "perfect" bullets--and two that shucked their cores.
MD
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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toltegriz--
No, it's a perfectly fair question. But I believe I already answered it in a previous post on this thread--but will do so again.
Nosler built the AccuBond because customers were clamoring for a stouter plastic-tipped Nosler bullet than the Ballistic Tip--but they also wanted the boattail and fine accuracy of the Ballistic Tip. So Nosler built a bullet that in many ways is a cross between the performance of the BT and Partition.
It is selling like crazy, apparently--but the odd thing is that at the same time Partition sales have also shot up, concurrently with the introduction of the AB. The boys at Nosler guess this is because so many of the reviews of the AB mentioned approximating the terminal performance of the Partition, so many hunters who had never tried the Partition before did so, and liked it.
MD
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My point is even if it is a batch problem (and we can hope for an answer to that),......... Indeed, wouldn't it be refreshing to hear a manufacturer 'fess up and tell us that somehow a bad batch got out the door, rather than spin it as somebody else's fault?
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Well it don't surprise me much, the partition is a very very good bullet with almost a 60 year track record of such. My guess its not cheap to bring a new bullet like the AB to market in the first place, while boat tails were never my cup of tea, they do have there place I guess and well the customer likes them. In the end it forced all the bullets we shoot to get better. Now if only just maybe we will see a 6.5 mm Nosler Partition in the 156 to 160 gr range, Oh well you can have every thing. Good to hear Nosler is having strong sales, a good indicator on how heathy the ecomomy is, people do have money to spend and shooting more is a good indication of that.
"Any idiot can face a crisis,it's the day-to-day living that wears you out."
Anton Chekhov
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Campfire Ranger
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MD I had read the earlier post. I guess I was really wondering why people would use..., not why a manufacturer would make... In retrospect I guess I was indirectly asking you to explain human nature. Not fair, so consequently, never mind T <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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Why can"t they make partitions like the BT or AB, just modify the jacket and tip with the same partition innards that make the partition what it is?
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Because the plastic tip would replace most the lead innards in the nose of the Partition, and the purpose of the plastic tip is to
* give a better aerodynamic shape for longer shots
* give better weight distribution for flight stability for longer shots
* no deform in the magazine under recoil
* upset the lead beneath it to initiate rapid expansion at lower impact velocities on game at long ranges
But Winchester and Barnes are working on something like that with their new polymer tipped bullets.
And I picked up Winchester Supreme Ballistic Silvertip and Accubond ammo at Wal-Mart for $9.00 a box yesterday.
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Just to throw a few more data points on the fire, I talked on the phone a couple hours ago to a colleague who just returned from Namibia.
He and his wife shot AccuBonds (Federal factory loads) in both a .375 H&H and a .270 Win. He got "death ray" performance (his words) on everything he shot with the .375, and had no complaints about the .270 either. Game included several springbok, impala, steenbok and warthogs (trophies and leopard bait), a great hartebeest, a gemsbok, a kudu, and a leopard.
On quartering-on shoulder shots, he says ABs from the .375 penetrated well into the innards of both a leopard and a gemsbok. They didn't have to shoot anything twice, and only recovered one or two bullets from about 10-11 animals.
From his description, the performance he got with the .375 was a lot like I got from mine with TSXs last month. (I tried the ABs but the TSX was more accurate in my rifle.)
John
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Here is a link to a simular Accubond performance on Elk last year. Misserable penetration from a 200 grain Accubond on a cow Elk http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...part=1&vc=1
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Allen, great to hear that you had a fantastic hunt. Super to have you back here posting on this forum and looking forward to catching up on your posts after a long and needed vacation in Portugal. I also had stupendous failures (so did my buddies) but using .30 cal 180gr. Accubonds and I understand your frustration. I must say though, that I did comment on AR, 24hr and Nosler Reloading forums about my experiences with Accubonds failing as early as 2003 and 2004. I pulled up a couple of those threads/posts that you can view on the Ask the Gunwriters thread. Not to say that I told you so (because the .225gr .338 cal should have been built more solidly and it has a slightly greater SD etc.), but hopefully our comments will reinforce to others to rethink about using them on high expense trophy hunts. Recovered from small, meat deer in norther Alberta: IIRC, penetration on that hunt among the three of us ranged from 10-14" max and were either all shoulder shots or a Pelvis shot where the bullet failed most miserably. That deer was finished of with a knife. Avg. FPS 3000fps, out of 300WSMs and ranges from 60-130yards. ![[Linked Image]](http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid145/pa9af7013ab3b0b64a3634ffd69546c7f/f66b2ec0.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid145/pf75d0a5ddb2745955198c32ad7d3c60f/f66b2ebb.jpg) Cheers, CL
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To those that think it's a mix-up of ballistic tips or a bad lot or quality control- BS!!! Nosler had my experience, bullet failures and lot numbers since 2004 and they haven't done anything!! You can't fix something that was poorly designed/bad to begin with - not without some radical changes in the bullet design (thicker jacket, partition in the Accubond) that would then force Nosler to acknowledge their mistake in the first place.
Mule Deer- see my response to your post where I gave all the info to Nosler for testing. Two years later, they're still producing them the same way.
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Campfire Outfitter
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I'll throw this picture up as anecdotal evidence that there may be a problem with quality control. These two 150 gr. .308" Accubonds were from the same box, same load, same yardage, same backstop. What bothers me is the lack of grey coloration on the expanded jacket of the pancaked one. All other bonded bullets I've seen have had this coloration, even though the lead has been wiped away, indicating the core had indeed been bonded to the jacket. Looking at this jacket I see no evidence that the core was bonded. I dug about half a dozen out of the backstop and the rest looked like the one on the left. I'll throw out these disclaimers too. I realize this is a VERY small sample. I also realize backstops are tough on bullets and do not necessarily indicate bullet performance on animals. My main point of contention is not the fact that the bullet pancaked or that there is no core left; it's that there is no evidence of bonding (i.e. no thin layer of lead left on the jacket). These bullets will work fine for the broadside shots on deer and antelope that I usually take. However, I will not be buying Accubonds in the near future. If I pay for bonded bullets, doggone it I want them ALL to be bonded. I called Nosler and talked to Mike about my concern. He blamed it on hitting a rock in the backstop. I do not discount that possibility but to my eye there should still be some evidence of bonding. Mike would not entertain the notion that a bullet made it out of the plant without bonding. Has anybody seen expanded bonded bullets that didn't have a thin layer of lead still attached to the jacket? ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/whttail/P8260001.jpg)
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These two 150 gr. .308" Accubonds were from the same box, same load, same yardage, same backstop.
That is all I need to know. I will be switching to TSX, Trophy Bonded, or XP3. From this point Accubonds = Ballistic Tips to me.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I'll throw this picture up as anecdotal evidence that there may be a problem with quality control. These two 150 gr. .308" Accubonds were from the same box, same load, same yardage, same backstop. What bothers me is the lack of grey coloration on the expanded jacket of the pancaked one. All other bonded bullets I've seen have had this coloration, even though the lead has been wiped away, indicating the core had indeed been bonded to the jacket. Looking at this jacket I see no evidence that the core was bonded. I dug about half a dozen out of the backstop and the rest looked like the one on the left. I'll throw out these disclaimers too. I realize this is a VERY small sample. I also realize backstops are tough on bullets and do not necessarily indicate bullet performance on animals. My main point of contention is not the fact that the bullet pancaked or that there is no core left; it's that there is no evidence of bonding (i.e. no thin layer of lead left on the jacket). These bullets will work fine for the broadside shots on deer and antelope that I usually take. However, I will not be buying Accubonds in the near future. If I pay for bonded bullets, doggone it I want them ALL to be bonded. I called Nosler and talked to Mike about my concern. He blamed it on hitting a rock in the backstop. I do not discount that possibility but to my eye there should still be some evidence of bonding. Mike would not entertain the notion that a bullet made it out of the plant without bonding. Has anybody seen expanded bonded bullets that didn't have a thin layer of lead still attached to the jacket? I agree, I see no evidence of a bond............ <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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There are simply too many better-built premium bullets to choose from these days, rather than ABs, such as those superb Swift A-Frames, Nosler's own fine Partition, North Fork, Barnes TSX, Trophy Bonded, etc. If you can't find at lease ONE of these to produce satisfactory accuracy (1 MOA or less), there's likely something wrong with your rifle. Heck, I've had better performance over the years from regular old Hornady Interlocks than I have ABs, although I've had those come apart on occasion as well.
You can quote me on this any time you want to, but as far as I'm concerned, accuracy for its own sake can become a very, very bitter bargain if the structural integrity of the bullet itself is such that reliable, bet-your-life-on-it terminal performance is compromised to the point of failure. That's a no-win deal any way you'd care to cut it, and from any logical standpoint of consideration. Quite honestly, I think a lot of guys have varmint hunting requirements and statistical gratification confused with optimum hunting performance.
Excellent postings by Allen, good information, and even better observations.
--Randy
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Randy, I appreciate your comments.........
I have found, to a man, that African PHs are more concerned with bullet construction than just about anything else, along with 100% perfect feeding and reliable rifle function. Iconic ideas such as "benchrest accuracy" mean almost nothing to them, and exact caliber selection doesn't to seem to be all that critical in their eyes, either.
And that's fundamentally been my own experience over the years, and Wayne Van Zwoll was absolutely right when he said, "if it doesn't feed, it's junk!" For hunting, perfect feeding and function is absolutely, 100% more important than "benchrest-acuracy", and bullet construction is far more important than a 1/2" or so difference in group size.
The average hunter these days just can't get past a cluster of holes on a piece of paper. He doesn't know how to evaluate a rifle or a bullet any other way, at least so it would seem, and I think some of these AB threads would demonstrate that to be true.
But there are much more important considerations that warrant serious consideration, within reason, or course.........
AD
"The placing of the bullet is everything. The most powerful weapon made will not make up for lack of skill in marksmanship."
Colonel Townsend Whelen
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