24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
-->
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 20,839
2
2ndwind Offline OP
Campfire Ranger
OP Offline
Campfire Ranger
2
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 20,839
Looking for suggestions for civil war history reading. Something objective and not epic in length....

I started watching Birth of a Nation.... (Thanks Bart).


Please don't feed the trolls!

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 19,107
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 19,107
Quote
Something objective


From which point of view? I doubt that you can get a truly objective book, because even if the writer did not have a side, he would have opinions. miles


Look out for number 1, don't step in number 2.
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,041
R
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
R
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,041
For a modern classic on the underlying causes of the Civil War and the philosophic issues and debate between the two sides you can do no better than one of the greatest Lincoln scholars of our time---"A New Birth of Freedom: Abraham Lincoln and the Coming of the Civil War" by Harry V. Jaffa Best exposition of the fundamental, underlying philosophic and political tensions I have read. Full coverage and commentary of the Lincoln-Douglas debates and all of the underlying political issues giving rise to the Civil War.


Jordan


http://www.amazon.com/New-Birth-Freedom-Abraham-Lincoln/dp/0847699536


Editorial Reviews
From Publishers Weekly

At last Jaffa, professor emeritus of political philosophy at Claremont McKenna College, delivers the long-promised and very worthy sequel to his classic, Crisis of the House Divided (1958), which brilliantly synthesized the content and meaning of the Lincoln-Douglas debates. In his new work for the serious student of the 16th president's Jeffersonian interpretation of Constitutional law, Jaffa sees Lincoln's utterances in the debates as summarizing his political thinking from the time of the repeal of the Missouri Compromise (1854) up until his message to Congress on July 4, 1861. Starting with the July 4th address, Lincoln began to wrangle politically and intellectually with the legacy of John C. Calhoun andDmore specificallyDwith Calhoun's arguments for states' rights and secession. Calhoun had built a rhetoric separating states' rights from natural rights; he claimed that his new political science superseded the Declaration of Independence, the Federalist thinking and that of the Founding Fathers in general. In this book's penultimate chapterDa fascinating critique of Calhoun's paradigmDJaffa accomplishes what he set out to do and vindicates, in his own words, "not only Lincoln's rejection of the Southern states' rights dogma but also the intrinsic validity of the natural rights of the Declaration of Independence, encompassing the proposition that all men are created equal." This title, which features a stark and striking photo of Lincoln on its jacket, should sell on Jaffa's reputationDRowman & Littlefield is planning a substantial first printing of 10,000 copies, and the author will do promotion in California, where he lives, and in Washington, D.C. (Nov.)
Copyright 2000 Reed Business Information, Inc. --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.
Review
Jaffa has again delivered a powerful contribution to Lincoln scholarship. Historians will find many riches in Jaffa's latest learned volume. (Michael Vorenberg American Historical Review)

Harry V. Jaffa takes his time. The wait is well worth it. In unpacking Lincoln's great speeches and debate orations, Jaffa shows what an astute, formidable, and brilliant interlocutor Lincoln was. (Jean Bethke Elshtain, The Laura Spelman Rockeller Professor of Social and Political Ethics, University of Chicago; author of Just War Against Terror Civil War Book Review)

On exhibit in this book is a powerful intellect. . . . Among the prominent Americans who are brilliantly illuminated here as they have rarely been are Thomas Jefferson, John C. Calhoun, Jefferson Davis, and, of course, Abraham Lincoln. (George Anastaplo, author of Abraham Lincoln: A Constitutional Biography)

A New Birth of Freedom more than meets the critical expectations that Professor Jaffa has invited in the years since his acclaimed study, Crisis of the House Divided: An Interpretation of the Lincoln-Douglas Debates, reoriented scholarly investigation of Abraham Lincoln and the coming the Civil War. A work of profound historical erudition and disciplined philosophical criticism, Jaffa's new work offers an original analysis of the crisis of the Union in the perspective of the western political tradition and in the context of the constitutional principles of the American Revolution. More judiciously than any other twentieth-century scholar writing in the nationalist tradition, Jaffa meets the challenge posed by the political philosophy and constitutional constructions of John C. Calhoun and the southern secessionists. Recognizing the openness of the historical situation that existed in 1861, Jaffa provides the most searching and fair-minded analysis of Lincoln's reasons for resisting secession that I have ever read. (Herman Belz, University of Maryland, College Park)

Four decades ago, Harry Jaffa offered powerful insights on the Lincoln-Douglas debates in his Crisis of the House Divided. In this long-awaited sequel, he picks up the threads of that earlier study in this stimulating new interpretation of the showdown conflict between slavery and freedom in the election of 1860 and the secession crisis that followed. Every student of Lincoln needs to read and ponder this book. (James M. McPherson, Princeton University)

With A New Birth of Freedom Harry V. Jaffa reestablishes himself as the greatest living scholar of Lincoln's political thought and Lincoln's greatest defender, period. Jaffa's analysis of the First Inaugural is without parallel as he demonstrates once and for all the incoherence of Calhoun's arguments for the southern secession. For every citizen interested in the preservation of the American union and the principles on which it rests, Jaffa's book is a must-read. (Steven B. Smith, Yale University)

Harry V. Jaffa's A New Birth of Freedom is a brilliant and incisive explication of the political ideas that were at the heart of the coming of the Civil War. Jaffa is at his very best in demolishing the currently fashionable argument that the ideal of equality was not part of the American constitutional system from its beginning. This is a work of deep learning and great relevance, both to Lincoln's time and our own. It is a worthy sequel to the author's classic study, A Crisis of the House Divided. (William E. Gienapp, Harvard University)

Forty years ago, Harry Jaffa wrote the greatest book on Abraham Lincoln's politics for a generation; now, Jaffa has written the greatest book on Lincoln's politics for another generation. A New Birth of Freedom is a relentless, powerful analysis of how Abraham Lincoln claimed the high intellectual ground of right, of universality, and of prudence from the romantic and racist ideology of John Calhoun—and claims it still from the shadow of Calhoun's postmodern imitators. (Allen C. Guelzo, author of Abraham Lincoln: Redeemer President)

Harry Jaffa's Crisis of the House Divided could rank as the 'first book' of American political science, for it showed how the whole tradition of political philosophy was brought to bear, by a gifted political man, on the gravest crisis of the American regime. For the same reason, that book stands, even today, as the best book ever written on Lincoln: it gave an account of Lincoln at the highest level, by actually taking seriously the substance of Lincoln's political thought. In A New Birth of Freedom, Jaffa provides long-awaited. It is a sublime work, advancing and deepening the first. Lincoln comes out even more clearly in this new book as a model of 'classic statesmanship,' set off against all of the moral premises that would come with modernity, as Right and Left, would back into nihilism and reject the moral tradition. In Jaffa's hand, the account of Lincoln reaches the poetic, as indeed it must, for as the author allows, 'the place of the necessity in great poetry imposed by the artist may be occupied by a providential order in history, revealed in the speeches of the tragic hero.' (Hadley Arkes, Amherst College)

Forty years after his Crisis of the House Divided, widely recognized as a classic analysis of the ideas articulated in the Lincoln-Douglas debates, Harry Jaffa has brought the same combination of impressive learning, breadth of knowledge and bold argument to his study of Lincoln's ideas at the outbreak of war. He places Lincoln's thought in a rich and broad context that ranges from Plato and Aristotle, and Dante and Shakespeare to Jefferson and Calhoun. This is a distinctive and provocative contribution to the current debate about the ideology and the ideals of America's greatest president. (Peter Parish, University of London)

A masterful synthesis and analysis of the contending political philosophies on the eve of the Civil War. A magisterial work that arrives after a lifetime of scholarship and reflection—and earns our gratitude as well as our respect. (Kirkus Reviews)

The appearance of Jaffa's A New Birth of Freedom: Abraham Lincoln and the Coming of the Civil War is an intellectual event of some significance. . . . The new volume will not prove a disappointment. It is a product of rigorous reasoning, reflects a profound knowledge of Lincoln and his era, and is cast in vigorous prose. And like the earlier volume, it expresses a deep moral seriousness. (Glenn Tinder, University of Massachusetts The Weekly Standard)

At last Jaffa, professor emeritus of political philosophy at Claremont McKenna College, delivers the long-promised and very worthy sequel to his classic, Crisis of the House Divided (1958), which brilliantly synthesized the content and meaning of the Lincoln-Douglas debates. (Publishers Weekly)

This dense, demanding book on political philosophy will repay many readings and is a powerful rebuttal of those who insist that passion alone drives history and that great men did not mean what they said. (Randall M. Miller Library Journal)

In this deeply thought-out and eloquently argued book, the sequel to his acclaimed Crisis of the House Divided, Harry Jaffa brilliantly distills the political thinking of Abraham Lincoln and its potent legacy. (Charles Sermon The State)

Jaffa shows the inner unity of Lincoln's words and deeds with an intelligence and loving care never before equaled. (Charles R. Kesler Claremont Review of Books)

The essence of Jaffa's case—meticulously laid out over nearly 500 pages—is that the Constitution is not, as Lincoln put it, a 'free love arrangement' held together by passing fancy. It is an indissoluble compact in which all men consent to be governed by majority, provided their inalienable rights are preserved. (Bret Stephens The Wall Street Journal)

A New Birth of Freedom was worth the wait. Jaffa has produced a tour de force: an unabashed but scholarly celebration of Lincoln, liberty, and equality; a book that achieves Jaffa's goal of understanding 'the true measure of Lincoln's greatness.' (James L. Swanson Chicago Tribune)

Jaffa's prose is elegant and learned but complex, and, like his arguments, intellectually demanding. This absorbing book requires much effort on the part of the reader, but that effort is well rewarded. (CHOICE)

No other scholar has scrutinized the main documents of early American political thought as thoroughly as Jaffa. Prof. Jaffa's valuable book is as comprehensive as an encyclopedia and as exegetical as a scholastic thesis. Whether one agrees with him entirely or not, his argument that the ideas of Jefferson and Lincoln represent an organic continuity is original and daring and deserves to be debated for years to come. (John Patrick Diggins National Review)

This book is a scholarly effort. It is not an easy read, yet the logic Professor Jaffa offers flows clearly, orderly, and in abundance. (The Anniston Star)

Jaffa's new book has the same solid core that his earlier book possessed. (First Things)

A mighty achievement that will likely (and justly) dominate the landscape of American political thought for some time to come. (Religion & Liberty)

Harry Jaffa has crafted a captivating study of Abraham Lincoln's decision to save the Union by force in the secession crisis following his 1860 election to the presidency. The author broadly examines the intellectual, moral, and legal bases of the American founding to show how Lincoln's positions were logically derived. (Benjamine P. Tyree Book World)

Erudition, brilliance, probing analysis of texts, and the relation of ideas to others. His [Jaffa's] writing is insightful, imaginative, argumentative, and usually persuasive. This book makes an important contribution to the study of Lincoln's thought. (James A. Rawley History)

Scholars should add A New Birth of Freedom to their must-read list. (Daniel J. McInerney Reviews In American History)

Jaffa presents an impressive analysis of Lincoln in the context of Jefferson, Madison, Calhoun, and even William Shakespeare. A New Birth of Freedom is an outstanding book. (Liberty Press)

A New Birth of Freedom is a master work by a true and learned master of history and philosophy. It is a must for every serious student of the founding of our nation, of Abraham Lincoln, and of the Civil War. A New Birth of Freedom should be required reading for all lawyers, judges, members of political bodies, and of the body politic, and especially those still in school. (Civil War News) The principal virtue of Jaffa's book is the seriousness with which it treats its main topic. (Journal of American History)

Jaffa's analysis of Lincoln and his rhetoric offers great insight. . . . One hopes that . . . Jaffa may enjoy a lifespan of Mosaic proportions and continue for many years to enrich our understanding of Lincoln. (Rhetoric & Public Affairs)

No mere review can do justice to this new book; suffice to say that it is a stunning work of scholarship and erudition that vindicates Lincoln against both his contemporary adversaries and those who in our own time would diminish him and the principles of the American Founding he sought to perpetuate. (The Washington Times)


Last edited by RobJordan; 04/06/15.

Communists: I still hate them even after they changed their name to "liberals".
____________________

My boss asked why I wasn't working. I told him I was being a democrat for Halloween.
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,625
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,625


"My message to my troops is if you see anybody carrying a gun on the streets of Milwaukee, we'll put them on the ground, take the gun away and then decide whether you have a right to carry it." - Milwaukee Police Chief Ed Flynn
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 288
B
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
B
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 288
I learned a lot from the three volume set written by Shelby Foote called "The Civil War"....very in depth read.....bearit...

IC B2

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,385
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,385
Unless it begins with the line "In 1861 that scalawag Lincoln...", a lot of people are going to reject its objectivity immediately. wink


Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,385
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,385
I could listen to Shelby Foote talk for hours, his voice personifies Southern gentility.


Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 14,805
J
Campfire Outfitter
Online Content
Campfire Outfitter
J
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 14,805
Originally Posted by Jim in Idaho
Unless it begins with the line "In 1861 that scalawag Lincoln...", a lot of people are going to reject its objectivity immediately. wink


That is the kindest thing any objective person could say about him.

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,878
Likes: 4
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,878
Likes: 4
Originally Posted by Jim in Idaho
Unless it begins with the line "In 1861 that scalawag Lincoln...", a lot of people are going to reject its objectivity immediately. wink


You are correct; there are many people who have no interest whatsoever in taking an objective look at the subject.


Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.

Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)

Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,376
Likes: 1
D
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
D
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,376
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by bearit
I learned a lot from the three volume set written by Shelby Foote called "The Civil War"....very in depth read.....bearit...


Originally Posted by bearit
I learned a lot from the three volume set written by Shelby Foote called "The Civil War"....very in depth read.....bearit...


The PBS series The Civil War was very well done,Shelby Foote is one of the narrators. Some of the pics are extremely graphic and the thing I liked about it was that it did not really take sides, it did a good job of explaining both sides and the causes of the war.

drover


223 Rem, my favorite cartridge - you can't argue with truckloads of dead PD's and gophers.

24hourcampfire.com - The site where there is a problem for every solution.

IC B3

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,041
R
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
R
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,041
Originally Posted by 5sdad
Originally Posted by Jim in Idaho
Unless it begins with the line "In 1861 that scalawag Lincoln...", a lot of people are going to reject its objectivity immediately. wink


You are correct; there are many people who have no interest whatsoever in taking an objective look at the subject.


Harry V. Jaffa recently died. He was (at his death) the greatest living Lincoln scholar. A staunch conservative, he gained fame for writing a memorable phrase for Goldwater's nomination acceptance speech in '63 (which helped Goldwater lose!). The phrase was “I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.” I think Jaffa has demonstrated as conclusively as any moral/political proposition can be demonstrated that the legal and moral positivism which sought to justify chattel slavery as a positive moral good is indistinguishable from (nay, it is identical with) the legal and moral positivism which sought to justify Nazi and Stalinist genocide as positive moral goods. He also showed (every bit as conclusively) that the argument for homosexuality as a positive moral good is nothing more or less than the philosophic off-spring of the argument justifying chattel slavery (and Nazi and Stalinist genocide). They all spring from the self-same moral and legal positivism that denies any moral authority to "the laws of nature and of nature's God" proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence and upon an appeal to which this nation was founded, free and independent.


Jordan

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/12/u...-and-goldwater-muse-dies-at-96.html?_r=0

Last edited by RobJordan; 04/06/15.

Communists: I still hate them even after they changed their name to "liberals".
____________________

My boss asked why I wasn't working. I told him I was being a democrat for Halloween.
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,896
Likes: 1
H
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
H
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,896
Likes: 1
I would suggest "The South Was Right!" by James & Walter Kennedy. It may not exactly be what the OP had in mind as being balanced, but it certainly does offer another documented viewpoint to the "holier than thou Yankee myth" and "the great savior Lincoln". Obviously, the theme of this book is in defense of the Confederacy, but the positions and issues that are addressed are well documented and thought provoking. I think it would be very difficult, at best, to find any one book truly objective that goes into great detail as to each side of the argument.

BTW- I agree with an earlier post about the works of Shelby Foote. I do, however, disagree with Foote's assessment of Confederate General Joseph E. Johnston.


"...why, land is the only thing in the world worth working for, worth fighting for, worth dying for,... because it is the only thing that lasts."
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 14,805
J
Campfire Outfitter
Online Content
Campfire Outfitter
J
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 14,805
Originally Posted by RobJordan
Originally Posted by 5sdad
Originally Posted by Jim in Idaho
Unless it begins with the line "In 1861 that scalawag Lincoln...", a lot of people are going to reject its objectivity immediately. wink


You are correct; there are many people who have no interest whatsoever in taking an objective look at the subject.


Harry V. Jaffa recently died. He was (at his death) the greatest living Lincoln scholar. A staunch conservative, he gained fame for writing a memorable phrase for Goldwater's nomination acceptance speech in '63 (which helped Goldwater lose!). The phrase was “I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.” I think Jaffa has demonstrated as conclusively as any moral/political proposition can be demonstrated that the legal and moral positivism which sought to justify chattel slavery as a positive moral good is indistinguishable from (nay, it is identical with) the legal and moral positivism which sought to justify Nazi and Stalinist genocide as positive moral goods. He also showed (every bit as conclusively) that the argument for homosexuality as a positive moral good is nothing more or less than the philosophic off-spring of the argument justifying chattel slavery (and Nazi and Stalinist genocide). They all spring from the self-same moral and legal positivism that denies any moral authority to "the laws of nature and of nature's God" proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence and upon an appeal to which this nation was founded, free and independent.


Jordan

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/12/u...-and-goldwater-muse-dies-at-96.html?_r=0


If I'm going to get an opinion on American history, I'll not get it from the likes of Jaffa, an acolyte of Leo Strauss who rejected the traditions of Locke and Edmond Burke while trying to justify the enlargement of state power.

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,048
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,048
If ever you finally tire of peeping in the nest with all the other fuzzy down covered chicks read Lysander Spooner and Murray Rothbard.

Outside that, Lincoln should have been strangled in the crib.

Last edited by Archerhunter; 04/06/15.

BAN THE RAINBOW FLAG!
PERVERTS OFFEND ME!

"When is penguin season, daddy? I wanna go kill a penguin!"
---- 4 yr old Archerhuntress

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 27,692
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 27,692

C. Vann Woodward's : The Burden of Southern History

is a great one. Its not a canonical look at the war as much as it is an examination of causes, themes, and perception.

http://muse.jhu.edu/books/9780807149478


Member: Clan of the Turdlike People.

Courage is Fear that has said its Prayers

�If we ever forget that we are one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under.� Ronald Reagan.

Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 14,805
J
Campfire Outfitter
Online Content
Campfire Outfitter
J
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 14,805
The aforementioned Jaffa spent much of his writing attempting to discredit John C. Calhoun.

Calhoun is unpopular today because unlike Clay, he argued that slavery was not just a necessary evil, but a positive good. In today's world that is more or less indefensible. However, I will say that in Calhoun's day, the plight of the American slave was probably at least equal to that of the Irish tenant farmer, the Russian serf, the Austro-Hungarian peasant, or the Mexican peon. Remember, this was a preindustrial agrarian society and until mechanization, the plight of the farm worker was one of small tenants beholding to rich landowners. In that sense, his defense of American style slavery is more understandable.

But all that said, the real genius of Calhoun can be highlighted in this summation of his views from Wiki:

The Disquisition on Government is a 100-page abstract treatise that comprises Calhoun's definitive and fully elaborated ideas on government; he worked on it intermittently for six years before it was finished in 1849.[55] It systematically presents his arguments that (1) a numerical majority in any government will typically impose a despotism over a minority unless some way is devised to secure the assent of all classes, sections, and interests[56] and (2) that innate human depravity would debase government in a democracy.

Can ANYONE here on this board in light of our experience with the American government over the last century argue against John C. Calhoun? Did he not give substance to the fears of everyone on this board today with regard to our place and those who think and live like us in this country today? Who can argue with that. Time and experience demolishes the empty sophistry of those like Jaffa and proves the intellect and wisdom of Calhoun.

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,878
Likes: 4
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,878
Likes: 4
Along these same lines, can anyone point me to a scholarly study of what things would be like today had the Civil War not taken place, either with secession or without?


Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.

Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)

Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,041
R
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
R
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,041
Originally Posted by JoeBob
Originally Posted by RobJordan
Originally Posted by 5sdad
Originally Posted by Jim in Idaho
Unless it begins with the line "In 1861 that scalawag Lincoln...", a lot of people are going to reject its objectivity immediately. wink


You are correct; there are many people who have no interest whatsoever in taking an objective look at the subject.


Harry V. Jaffa recently died. He was (at his death) the greatest living Lincoln scholar. A staunch conservative, he gained fame for writing a memorable phrase for Goldwater's nomination acceptance speech in '63 (which helped Goldwater lose!). The phrase was “I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.” I think Jaffa has demonstrated as conclusively as any moral/political proposition can be demonstrated that the legal and moral positivism which sought to justify chattel slavery as a positive moral good is indistinguishable from (nay, it is identical with) the legal and moral positivism which sought to justify Nazi and Stalinist genocide as positive moral goods. He also showed (every bit as conclusively) that the argument for homosexuality as a positive moral good is nothing more or less than the philosophic off-spring of the argument justifying chattel slavery (and Nazi and Stalinist genocide). They all spring from the self-same moral and legal positivism that denies any moral authority to "the laws of nature and of nature's God" proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence and upon an appeal to which this nation was founded, free and independent.


Jordan

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/12/u...-and-goldwater-muse-dies-at-96.html?_r=0


If I'm going to get an opinion on American history, I'll not get it from the likes of Jaffa, an acolyte of Leo Strauss who rejected the traditions of Locke and Edmond Burke while trying to justify the enlargement of state power.


Get back to us when you have a clue what you're talking about. You're in over your head already.


Communists: I still hate them even after they changed their name to "liberals".
____________________

My boss asked why I wasn't working. I told him I was being a democrat for Halloween.
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 14,805
J
Campfire Outfitter
Online Content
Campfire Outfitter
J
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 14,805
You could have just admitted that you don't know who Leo Strauss is.

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,041
R
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
R
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,041
Originally Posted by JoeBob
The aforementioned Jaffa spent much of his writing attempting to discredit John C. Calhoun.

Calhoun is unpopular today because unlike Clay, he argued that slavery was not just a necessary evil, but a positive good. In today's world that is more or less indefensible. However, I will say that in Calhoun's day, the plight of the American slave was probably at least equal to that of the Irish tenant farmer, the Russian serf, the Austro-Hungarian peasant, or the Mexican peon. Remember, this was a preindustrial agrarian society and until mechanization, the plight of the farm worker was one of small tenants beholding to rich landowners. In that sense, his defense of American style slavery is more understandable.

But all that said, the real genius of Calhoun can be highlighted in this summation of his views from Wiki:

The Disquisition on Government is a 100-page abstract treatise that comprises Calhoun's definitive and fully elaborated ideas on government; he worked on it intermittently for six years before it was finished in 1849.[55] It systematically presents his arguments that (1) a numerical majority in any government will typically impose a despotism over a minority unless some way is devised to secure the assent of all classes, sections, and interests[56] and (2) that innate human depravity would debase government in a democracy.

Can ANYONE here on this board in light of our experience with the American government over the last century argue against John C. Calhoun? Did he not give substance to the fears of everyone on this board today with regard to our place and those who think and live like us in this country today? Who can argue with that. Time and experience demolishes the empty sophistry of those like Jaffa and proves the intellect and wisdom of Calhoun.


Yes. Happy to argue against the man whose philosophy was the forerunner of Nazi and Stalinist sponsored genocide and the justification of sodomy. The first thing that needs to be said is that Calhoun's statement of the problem of Democracy is not unique. Jefferson was way ahead of him. The solution is the recognition that all men have certain unalienable natural rights which are their birthright and that because those rights precede the institution of civil government and are a condition precedent to the adoption of civil government, any attempt by government to deny those rights to mankind is tyranny. But Calhoun is famous for concocting a theory to do just that---justify taking their natural rights from large masses of humanity for no other reason than the color of their skin. Calhoun is not a true apostle of the Founding, he is an apostate who sought to remake the Founding by grounding government on the theory that "might makes right." That was the philosophic premise that underlay everything Calhoun tried to do. It was the very negation of everything Jefferson taught in the Declaration (and which the Founding generation believed). Jefferson and the Framers believed in an objective moral order that existed independent of human will (and hence, independent and prior to majority rule). Jefferson declared that "the mass of mankind was not born with saddles on their backs and others booted and spurred to ride them." Calhoun preached (and practiced) exactly the opposite by denying the existence of the self-evident truths of the Declaration, calling them "self-evident lies" and attempting to do exactly what Jefferson said no man had a right to do---treat "the mass of mankind" (viz., black Africans) as if they were born with saddles on their backs" and "others" (Calhoun and anyone who could seize the reigns of government power) "booted and spurred to ride them." Calhoun would have loved Hitler and Stalin.

Last edited by RobJordan; 04/06/15.

Communists: I still hate them even after they changed their name to "liberals".
____________________

My boss asked why I wasn't working. I told him I was being a democrat for Halloween.
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
AX24

688 members (160user, 10gaugemag, 1beaver_shooter, 10Glocks, 12344mag, 67 invisible), 3,150 guests, and 1,396 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,192,104
Posts18,483,198
Members73,959
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 


Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.



Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.167s Queries: 55 (0.008s) Memory: 0.9360 MB (Peak: 1.0698 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-05-02 01:55:33 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS