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Why? Seems like this thread has gotten pretty convoluted. Why not just let it go? This and related topics never completely die on this Forum. It always gets resuscitated. Usually by one of those members that are inclined to be moved to do so by the Spirit or just as likely, the spirits rumbling in his bowels.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I see the usual suspects are out in force.
Paul said that ultimately, nothing was unlawful for the Christian but on the other hand, generally Christians were going to be held to and convicted of a higher standard. Further, Jesus said that Law ultimately boiled down to two commands: love God and love your neighbor.
I don't get at all the Bible condones slavery. It doesn't condemn it, but it doesn't endorse it. Mostly it simply acknowledges it as a reality. Slavery is and has been a fact in every culture, in every era, throughout the history of the world. ONLY in the last few hundred years and ONLY because of Western nations that were at the time TRULY CHRISTIAN in outlook and form, has it come to be seen as immoral. But when Jesus was around? It was merely a fact of life.
Further, there were lots of kinds of slavery in those days as well. A substantial number of slaves were slaves because of indebtedness and many even voluntarily became slaves to pay off debts or provide money for their families. Was that immoral? Maybe, but the answer isn't as clear. Should a man have the right to freely contract himself into slavery?
Morality is changing, but I submit that just about every positive change over the last 2,000 years is a result of evolutions in CHRISTIAN western culture. Place one of these so-called "secular" moralists down in pagan Rome and let's just see how much his morals have been influenced by Judeo-Christian ideas. Right, except for you "Good Southern Christians" who used the bible to justify owning another human being so long as when you beat them they didn't die for a day or two....
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Why? Seems like this thread has gotten pretty convoluted. Why not just let it go? This and related topics never completely die on this Forum. It always gets resuscitated. Usually by one of those members that are inclined to be moved to do so by the Spirit or just as likely, the spirits rumbling in his bowels. Seems you've been rumbling louder than anyone.
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Campfire Ranger
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“Life is life and fun is fun, but it's all so quiet when the goldfish die.”
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Why? Seems like this thread has gotten pretty convoluted. Why not just let it go? This and related topics never completely die on this Forum. It always gets resuscitated. Usually by one of those members that are inclined to be moved to do so by the Spirit or just as likely, the spirits rumbling in his bowels. Seems you've been rumbling louder than anyone. Corned beef and cabbage is food that feeds the soul. And, being on the right side of God has it's privileges. Nice that you noticed.
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Right, except for you "Good Southern Christians" who used the bible to justify owning another human being so long as when you beat them they didn't die for a day or two....
[bleep] you,... if history doesn't fit your needs then please feel free to just make up your own.
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It's a great life if you don't weaken..
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Right, except for you "Good Southern Christians" who used the bible to justify owning another human being so long as when you beat them they didn't die for a day or two....
[bleep] you,... if history doesn't fit your needs then please feel free to just make up your own. He ain't wrong.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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I see the usual suspects are out in force.
Paul said that ultimately, nothing was unlawful for the Christian but on the other hand, generally Christians were going to be held to and convicted of a higher standard. Further, Jesus said that Law ultimately boiled down to two commands: love God and love your neighbor.
I don't get at all the Bible condones slavery. It doesn't condemn it, but it doesn't endorse it. Mostly it simply acknowledges it as a reality. Slavery is and has been a fact in every culture, in every era, throughout the history of the world. ONLY in the last few hundred years and ONLY because of Western nations that were at the time TRULY CHRISTIAN in outlook and form, has it come to be seen as immoral. But when Jesus was around? It was merely a fact of life.
Further, there were lots of kinds of slavery in those days as well. A substantial number of slaves were slaves because of indebtedness and many even voluntarily became slaves to pay off debts or provide money for their families. Was that immoral? Maybe, but the answer isn't as clear. Should a man have the right to freely contract himself into slavery?
Morality is changing, but I submit that just about every positive change over the last 2,000 years is a result of evolutions in CHRISTIAN western culture. Place one of these so-called "secular" moralists down in pagan Rome and let's just see how much his morals have been influenced by Judeo-Christian ideas. Right, except for you "Good Southern Christians" who used the bible to justify owning another human being so long as when you beat them they didn't die for a day or two.... Well, I've never done anything of the sort. But of course, I'll defer to the man who says that he came up with his own morality based on "secular" principles.
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I don't get at all the Bible condones slavery. It doesn't condemn it, but it doesn't endorse it. Mostly it simply acknowledges it as a reality. Slavery is and has been a fact in every culture, in every era, throughout the history of the world. ONLY in the last few hundred years and ONLY because of Western nations that were at the time TRULY CHRISTIAN in outlook and form, has it come to be seen as immoral. But when Jesus was around? It was merely a fact of life.
Murder has been a fact in every culture and in every era. But the Bible comes right out and says; 'Thou shall not murder'. The fact that an abominable practice is culturally universal did not prevent the Bible from forbidding it in the case of murder but did not in the case of slavery. These facts are inconsistent with your point. Why not acknowledge that murder is merely a fact of life as well?
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Right, except for you "Good Southern Christians" who used the bible to justify owning another human being so long as when you beat them they didn't die for a day or two....
[bleep] you,... if history doesn't fit your needs then please feel free to just make up your own. He ain't wrong. Except that Carbon 12 is nothing, if not a complete hypocrite for arguing against Joe Bob on this issue since Carbon himself denies the existence of any objective standard of right and wrong. For him, the humanity of a black man (like the genders of a man and a woman) are simply brute facts. In his "morality" they tell us nothing about right and wrong.
Communists: I still hate them even after they changed their name to "liberals".
____________________
My boss asked why I wasn't working. I told him I was being a democrat for Halloween.
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I don't get at all the Bible condones slavery. It doesn't condemn it, but it doesn't endorse it. Mostly it simply acknowledges it as a reality. Slavery is and has been a fact in every culture, in every era, throughout the history of the world. ONLY in the last few hundred years and ONLY because of Western nations that were at the time TRULY CHRISTIAN in outlook and form, has it come to be seen as immoral. But when Jesus was around? It was merely a fact of life.
Murder has been a fact in every culture and in every era. But the Bible comes right out and says; 'Thou shall not murder'. The fact that an abominable practice is culturally universal did not prevent the Bible from forbidding it in the case of murder but did not in the case of slavery. These facts are inconsistent with your point. Why not acknowledge that murder is merely a fact of life as well? Because murder has always been condemned by every culture in the world. Even in the most oppressive cultures in the history of the world, murder was condemned. But, hey, by all means keep chasing that rabbit.
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I don't get at all the Bible condones slavery. It doesn't condemn it, but it doesn't endorse it. Mostly it simply acknowledges it as a reality. Slavery is and has been a fact in every culture, in every era, throughout the history of the world. ONLY in the last few hundred years and ONLY because of Western nations that were at the time TRULY CHRISTIAN in outlook and form, has it come to be seen as immoral. But when Jesus was around? It was merely a fact of life.
Murder has been a fact in every culture and in every era. But the Bible comes right out and says; 'Thou shall not murder'. The fact that an abominable practice is culturally universal did not prevent the Bible from forbidding it in the case of murder but did not in the case of slavery. These facts are inconsistent with your point. Why not acknowledge that murder is merely a fact of life as well? Because murder has always been condemned by every culture in the world. Even in the most oppressive cultures in the history of the world, murder was condemned. But, hey, by all means keep chasing that rabbit. Not my rabbit to chase. It is the inconsistency in your argument that got nailed.
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I don't get at all the Bible condones slavery. It doesn't condemn it, but it doesn't endorse it. Mostly it simply acknowledges it as a reality. Slavery is and has been a fact in every culture, in every era, throughout the history of the world. ONLY in the last few hundred years and ONLY because of Western nations that were at the time TRULY CHRISTIAN in outlook and form, has it come to be seen as immoral. But when Jesus was around? It was merely a fact of life.
Murder has been a fact in every culture and in every era. But the Bible comes right out and says; 'Thou shall not murder'. The fact that an abominable practice is culturally universal did not prevent the Bible from forbidding it in the case of murder but did not in the case of slavery. These facts are inconsistent with your point. Why not acknowledge that murder is merely a fact of life as well? Because murder has always been condemned by every culture in the world. Even in the most oppressive cultures in the history of the world, murder was condemned. But, hey, by all means keep chasing that rabbit. Not my rabbit to chase. It is the inconsistency in your argument that got nailed. No, it isn't an inconsistency. Slavery was an accepted institution in every society. Murder was accepted in none.
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No, it isn't an inconsistency. Slavery was an accepted institution in every society. Murder was accepted in none.
Are you arguing that the Bible, the objective arbiter of morality, then and now, remained silent on slavery because slavery was an acceptable institution in every society? Isn't that the same as saying that society dictated morality instead of God of the Bible? That is assuming that the Christian God is silently against slavery as any enlightened Christian should fervently hope he is. Otherwise, slave owning Christians have no need to feel guilty about enslaving anyone nor think badly of anyone else that owns slaves. Just like in the good old days.
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JoeBob, Because murder has always been condemned by every culture in the world. Even in the most oppressive cultures in the history of the world, murder was condemned Speculation is fun, but this is over the top. You speak from ignorance. Read Middle Eastern history in the Bible. They were barbarians. Or believe a recent story from a friend of mine. He was in Africa and wanted to purchase a gift for he. They are barbarians. He chose a spear. The shop keeper asked if he would like to break it in properly. Of course my friend wanted to know how. The guy told him they would sneak into a neighboring village and kill someone. That, my .com friend, is murder !
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Right, except for you "Good Southern Christians" who used the bible to justify owning another human being so long as when you beat them they didn't die for a day or two....
Tell me again about that great atheist awakening that put an end to slavery in the US & Britain. Oh. wait, never mind. That didn't happen.
Islam is a terrorist organization.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Right, except for you "Good Southern Christians" who used the bible to justify owning another human being so long as when you beat them they didn't die for a day or two....
Tell me again about that great atheist awakening that put an end to slavery in the US & Britain. Oh. wait, never mind. That didn't happen. It was called "The Enlightenment".
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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JoeBob, Because murder has always been condemned by every culture in the world. Even in the most oppressive cultures in the history of the world, murder was condemned Speculation is fun, but this is over the top. You speak from ignorance. Read Middle Eastern history in the Bible. They were barbarians. Or believe a recent story from a friend of mine. He was in Africa and wanted to purchase a gift for he. They are barbarians. He chose a spear. The shop keeper asked if he would like to break it in properly. Of course my friend wanted to know how. The guy told him they would sneak into a neighboring village and kill someone. That, my .com friend, is murder ! No, I don't speak out of ignorance. Believe it or not, there are laws against murder where that shopkeeper was. If he had been caught, he surely would have been punished. Murder is and pretty much always has been proscribed against by all societies. Now, it is true that the application of those laws has left much to be desired in many places, but there have been few to no places in the history of the world that said that murder was acceptable.
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No, it isn't an inconsistency. Slavery was an accepted institution in every society. Murder was accepted in none.
Are you arguing that the Bible, the objective arbiter of morality, then and now, remained silent on slavery because slavery was an acceptable institution in every society? Isn't that the same as saying that society dictated morality instead of God of the Bible? That is assuming that the Christian God is silently against slavery as any enlightened Christian should fervently hope he is. Otherwise, slave owning Christians have no need to feel guilty about enslaving anyone nor think badly of anyone else that owns slaves. Just like in the good old days. I knew you would go there. Jesus said to love God and love your neighbor as you do yourself. If you today can figure a way to love your neighbor as you do yourself and own a slave, then I invite you to it. Society has since the time of Jesus been slowly and thoroughly Christianized. We've left that now, but up until the last 100 years or so, it was true. And in some parts of the world it might be true yet. But, just as the sinner who accepts Jesus does not become instantly without sin, society once under the sway of Christianity does not lose all vice. The Christian over time becomes more sanctified and hopefully as he grows in Christ, less sinful. So, has western society under Christianity up until relatively recently.
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