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Joined: Oct 2002
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2002
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Having used a pretty big spectrum of hunting bullets on game and reading the notes of their performance in my reloading manuals. It appears that fast expansion and even a bit of shrapnel Kills a bit to a lot quicker than the bullets that retain a lot of their weight. And even more horrifying it appears that certain brands of cup and core bullets are very fast killers of game if placed in the ribs. Ballistic Tips, Gamekings, Interloks and Hotcors in the midweights really seem to put game on the ground fast.
Dog I rescued in January ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/yYDjsxrQ/IMG-0124.jpg)
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Joined: Sep 2009
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 42,130 Likes: 11 |
I don't disagree with your statement, however, this forum is "ask the gun writers".
Do you have a question ?
Paul.
"Kids who grow up hunting, fishing & trapping, do not mug little old Ladies"
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,347 Likes: 14
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2006
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Believe the man is just starting up a friendly conversation grumpy pants.
I've noticed similar results specific to deer but id not want to use such bullets exclusively due to the possibility of odd angles requiring more penetration, to say nothing of torn up meat.
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Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 194
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 194 |
I like soft bullets for soft game.
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The APE
"But resist we much...we must...and we will much...about...that...be committed." - the "Reverend" Al Sharpton
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,225
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,225 |
There is no doubt that softer (even explosively soft) bullets will "kill" much faster than more controlled expansion bullets.......as long as they penetrate enough to reach the vitals. That isn't much penetration on a broadside rib shot, particularly on deer size game.
The "problem" comes when the game gets bigger or the angle of the shot isn't perfectly broadside. Even on a "perfect" broadside shot, a really soft bullet can fail if the shot isn't precisely placed. Hit a shoulder bone and that minimal penetration may not be enough. A severely angled shot where the vitals are 12-24" away from the point of bullet strike and penetration will likely be insufficient with a softer, fast expanding bullet. Hit a hip bone and you will almost be guaranteed to not reach the vitals.
The second "problem" with soft, explosive bullets is the fact that they are much less likely to fully penetrate the animal and give an exit wound. This severely reduces the blood trail if the animal runs after the shot (I should say "when"...as they will all run some of the time). This can be a real problem if the area is thick rather than more open making recovery difficult.
Controlled expansion bullets give much more room for error on less than perfect broadside shots....even if they don't give "lightning bolt" kills as often. That's one of the reasons the Nosler Partition is so popular. The front half of the Nosler expands quickly giving quicker kills while the rear portion gives penetration.
I hate change, it's never for the better.... Grumpy Old Men
The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044 |
Cup and core bullets will kill any whitetail in the woods and usually quicker than Premium Bullets. I very seldom use anything but Standard Cup and Core for my hunting of most Big Game Animals .
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,932
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,932 |
I've used monolithic bullets for much of the past few years to include two trips to RSA and total over 50 game animals from small deer, Impala to kudu, zebra and wildebeest. Seems to me that the internal damage from Monolithic is long and narrow with awhile before a blood trail begins. Cup and core bullets seem to have a much wider wound channel and a much quicker (Sooner)blood trail.
Beware of thieves, scammers and dishonest members on the "Fire" classifieds. Ya there is a thief here too. Whatever!!
They're all around the CampFire and everywhere.
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Joined: Oct 2008
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,748 |
Anybody compared an Accubond to a cup and core? From what I've heard, the front of the AB is pretty soft and would offer similar performance. I actually like the idea of a 'softer' bullet for deer.
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,347 Likes: 14
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2006
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My experience with ABs in several calibers/applications has been very partition like. Sounds like you want a ballistic tip.
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,342
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,342 |
I think these sort of bullets are a perfect match for my 300 Savage and 35 Whelen for most big game. Prefer something a bit stouter, like Partitions or ETips, for my 270 and 300 Win Mag.
Imagine your grave on a windy winter night. You've been dead for 70 years.
It's been 50 since a visitor last paused at your tombstone.....
Now explain why you're in a pissy mood today.
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
There is no doubt that softer (even explosively soft) bullets will "kill" much faster than more controlled expansion bullets.......as long as they penetrate enough to reach the vitals. That isn't much penetration on a broadside rib shot, particularly on deer size game.
The "problem" comes when the game gets bigger or the angle of the shot isn't perfectly broadside. Even on a "perfect" broadside shot, a really soft bullet can fail if the shot isn't precisely placed. Hit a shoulder bone and that minimal penetration may not be enough. A severely angled shot where the vitals are 12-24" away from the point of bullet strike and penetration will likely be insufficient with a softer, fast expanding bullet. Hit a hip bone and you will almost be guaranteed to not reach the vitals.
The second "problem" with soft, explosive bullets is the fact that they are much less likely to fully penetrate the animal and give an exit wound. This severely reduces the blood trail if the animal runs after the shot (I should say "when"...as they will all run some of the time). This can be a real problem if the area is thick rather than more open making recovery difficult.
Controlled expansion bullets give much more room for error on less than perfect broadside shots....even if they don't give "lightning bolt" kills as often. That's one of the reasons the Nosler Partition is so popular. The front half of the Nosler expands quickly giving quicker kills while the rear portion gives penetration. Bingo.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 21,927 Likes: 8
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 21,927 Likes: 8 |
Wow I thought this was all figured out by the sixties. The mono metal and other big dollar bullets have their place, but in real big game calibers, the normal bullets work great on deer. Partitions, as good as they are, seem to not kill deer as fast as cup and core, at least in .284 and 30. YMMV
Parents who say they have good kids..Usually don't!
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,225 Likes: 26
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,225 Likes: 26 |
Soft is the wrong word. Frangible is more accurate. Soft is something like pure lead or lead with a dash of tin. This is soft... ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/mileshoot0004_zps3ddee6e7.jpg) So's this... ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/PaperPatchDeer009_zps3a52d58c.jpg) Fella drives a C&C bullet fast enough and it turns into a grenade, or so I've noticed. Not much difference in results from hitting steel at a mile or meat at 70 yards, hey? Vernacular Nazi
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,216 Likes: 26
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,216 Likes: 26 |
One problem with this discussion is that today there's an entire spectrum of bullets performance from extremely fragmenting varmint bullets to monolithics that don't lose any weight. There are also monolithics designed to lose their petals, and bullets right in the middle of the spectrum that lose about half their weight.
In my experience both Hornady Interlock Spire Points and most Ballistic Tips retain about half their weight, on average, but to confuse the issue there are also Ballistic Tips designed to retain at least 60% of their weight, which borders on AccuBond and Partition performance--except some Partitions are designed to retain at least 75-80% of their weight.
And then there's the way the performance of "soft" bullets changes with the cartridge's velocity. So if we're going to talk in generalities like "fragmenting bullets" and "controlled-expansion" bullets then it's going to be very difficult to pin anything down.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 194
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 194 |
I think a lot of shooters are using bullets that are tougher than they need to be these days.
------------------------------
The APE
"But resist we much...we must...and we will much...about...that...be committed." - the "Reverend" Al Sharpton
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,105 Likes: 4
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2005
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I thought hunting bullets were for hunting? Therefore, is it not axiomatic that if it is stuck in the wrong place to the point of being inadequate, then more is being asked of it?
With a hunt costing money, I err on the Hagel Principle of planning for the worst shot imaginable. For local easier access deer hunting, more frangible bullets and chosen shots will work fine. Thus is why a local elk hunter is happy with a .270 and 130 grainer whereby an out of state hunter is more likely to pass over this combo and prefer something heavier.
Familiarity with game and terrain tends to influence the perception of adequacy in bullet performance.
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,893 Likes: 12
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,893 Likes: 12 |
Anybody compared an Accubond to a cup and core? From what I've heard, the front of the AB is pretty soft and would offer similar performance. I actually like the idea of a 'softer' bullet for deer. An Accubond is a cup and core bullet.
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 43,983 Likes: 26
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 43,983 Likes: 26 |
If I had to choose only one cartridge/bullet combo for deer it would a 270 and a 140 AccuBond.
Of course lots of other bullets work great as well.
Last edited by SamOlson; 04/09/15.
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,891
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,891 |
I really think it boils down to most NA game is not that hard of an animal especially deer. In all honesty they are pretty soft skinned and since we tend to use rifles of fairly significant power and capable of throwing sizable bullets then all of the current crop of bullet alloys do a pretty good job, This evidently was not so prior to say 1940 . One only has to read some of JOC's early works and he frequently is commenting on bullet quality or lack of. but most bullets were then just gilding metal with a soft lead core. When you get to either extremes very light bullets with frangible bullets say a 223 or 243 with a varmint bullet or a larger round with very tuff bullets then you may see some problems but use a good sized bullet at decent velocity and you are good to go. We live in some very good times bullet wise.
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,748
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,748 |
Anybody compared an Accubond to a cup and core? From what I've heard, the front of the AB is pretty soft and would offer similar performance. I actually like the idea of a 'softer' bullet for deer. An Accubond is a cup and core bullet. Ok, a bonded vs. non-bonded....
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