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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
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"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Joined: Oct 2009
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Campfire Tracker
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I never thought I'd grow up to be a grumpy old man, but I did, and I'm killin' it.
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Campfire Regular
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They put their FFL in the box. And then some. By including their FFL, they also have to show the acquisition (who it came from) and disposition ((who they transferred it to (receiving FFL))in their bound book, complete a 4473 (FFL-FFL) and retain those records (4473 and bound book) for 20yrs. Your not saying that the shipping FFL fills out a 4473, are you?
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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The shipping FFL must complete a 4473 showing the transfer to the distant FFL holder, and retain a copy of the distant FFL holders FFL. (Note, this can be somewhat controversial at a later date during an ATF compliance inspection, and depending on the inspector subjectiveness. Some will say that a printed copy of the results from an ATF E-Z Check suffices, others will require the presence of the FFL copy). The distant FFL holder will show acquisition from the shipping FFL, and will in-turn require the receiving individual to complete a 4473 and background check, and show disposition to the individual.
The rub comes when a FFL holder is also a UPS/FedEx/USPS shipper, and merely provides a 'convenient', no hassle shipping point. If the FFL holder does not do as mentioned above (bound book entries to show acquisition and disposition) and the receiving FFL shows acquisition as being FROM the FFL and not the INDIVIDUAL, then the 'audit trail' of the firearm is broken. Believe me it happens. Joe's Gun Shop, 123 Any Street, Yourtown, XX, (address on the UPS/FedEx/USPS label) ships a gun to Bob's Sports Shop, 789 Backstreet, Histown, YY (both FFL holders). Bob's enters the gun in his bound book as being acquired from Joe's, or contacts Joe's and says "I need a copy of your FFL," despite a note inside the packaging that has all the information (name, address, photo copy of driver's license, et al) regarding the INDIVIDUAL that actually had the gun shipped. From this point on things can get messy - DAMHIKT.
As I mentioned I work in a gun store, and handle a number of transfers. I also see one of the local ATF guys about once a week - he buys a lot of stuff. It's a good time to get clarification. That said, his recommendation (and he has done our compliance inspection in the past) is that if it comes in the front door and goes out the back is should be logged in the bound book. I'll add that there is a company out there called FFL-Guard. Their staff is comprised largely of lawyers intimately familiar with firearms law, and former ATF agents and inspectors. Their job, if hired, is to provide procedural counsel to FFL holders regarding day-to-day operations and in court. Their recommendations mirror those of the local agent I spoke of.
As I alluded to in an earlier post, few have contributed here that hold or operate under a FFL (sorry, C&Rs don't count). As such much that has been professed here should be be considered advice from an arm-chair quarterback, or barracks lawyer. Yes, there have been some truths expressed as to how and individual can legally (according to the ATF) ship or transfer a firearm; and yes, there have been some truths on how the various shippers will say it can't be done, whether the clerk or counter person actually knows, or whether it is the shippers policy. Just as a FFL holder can determine how or if he does transfers while maintaining compliance, so to can a shipper. Just because it's legal doesn't mean they HAVE to do it.
. . . . flak jacket on . . . .
I never thought I'd grow up to be a grumpy old man, but I did, and I'm killin' it.
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Joined: Oct 2004
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When I moved to AL, I had ordered a Montana 1999 barreled action while I was still overseas. Once it was ready, I had to find an FFL to ship it to. Walked into a gunshop, explained that I was brand new to the area, explained about the barrel action and wanted to know if I could transfer it there. He gave me the answer that since I didnt order it thru him, he wouldnt accept it. Tried to tell him that HE couldnt order it. He refused, because it didnt pay the bills for him.
Chuck Hawk, I would have made an exception in that case - and I'm a former Apache driver!!!
And these zombies line up and eat from the media’s trough
Cowards CANNOT be free. Nor should they be.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I own a gun shop, ...
2 of us are retired military and my partner's son is LE.
...
Why does LEO or former military have any bearing? I mean, you could do what you want, its your shop, but if you are complaining or stating "that doesn't pay the bills", perhaps consider stepping back from the LEO centric view you appear to have. Just an obs. Could be wrong. its happend before. But your mentioning of LEO a couple times when it wasnt the topic of the thread leads one to see you have some... s omething there.
Quit giving in inch by inch then looking back to lament the mile behind ya and wonder how to preserve those few feet left in front of ya. They'll never stop until they're stopped. That's a fact.
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Joined: Mar 2002
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Campfire Tracker
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You are so fricken wrong it's not worth my time to point out all the wrong information.
Go tell the Spartans,Travelers passing by,That here,Obedient to their laws we lie.
I'm older now but I'm still runnin' against the wind
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It's less expensive for me to ship a handgun thru my FFL than to pay for overnight shipping.
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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The shipping FFL must complete a 4473 showing the transfer to the distant FFL holder, and retain a copy of the distant FFL holders FFL. (Note, this can be somewhat controversial at a later date during an ATF compliance inspection, and depending on the inspector subjectiveness. Some will say that a printed copy of the results from an ATF E-Z Check suffices, others will require the presence of the FFL copy). The distant FFL holder will show acquisition from the shipping FFL, and will in-turn require the receiving individual to complete a 4473 and background check, and show disposition to the individual.
The rub comes when a FFL holder is also a UPS/FedEx/USPS shipper, and merely provides a 'convenient', no hassle shipping point. If the FFL holder does not do as mentioned above (bound book entries to show acquisition and disposition) and the receiving FFL shows acquisition as being FROM the FFL and not the INDIVIDUAL, then the 'audit trail' of the firearm is broken. Believe me it happens. Joe's Gun Shop, 123 Any Street, Yourtown, XX, (address on the UPS/FedEx/USPS label) ships a gun to Bob's Sports Shop, 789 Backstreet, Histown, YY (both FFL holders). Bob's enters the gun in his bound book as being acquired from Joe's, or contacts Joe's and says "I need a copy of your FFL," despite a note inside the packaging that has all the information (name, address, photo copy of driver's license, et al) regarding the INDIVIDUAL that actually had the gun shipped. From this point on things can get messy - DAMHIKT.
As I mentioned I work in a gun store, and handle a number of transfers. I also see one of the local ATF guys about once a week - he buys a lot of stuff. It's a good time to get clarification. That said, his recommendation (and he has done our compliance inspection in the past) is that if it comes in the front door and goes out the back is should be logged in the bound book. I'll add that there is a company out there called FFL-Guard. Their staff is comprised largely of lawyers intimately familiar with firearms law, and former ATF agents and inspectors. Their job, if hired, is to provide procedural counsel to FFL holders regarding day-to-day operations and in court. Their recommendations mirror those of the local agent I spoke of.
As I alluded to in an earlier post, few have contributed here that hold or operate under a FFL (sorry, C&Rs don't count). As such much that has been professed here should be be considered advice from an arm-chair quarterback, or barracks lawyer. Yes, there have been some truths expressed as to how and individual can legally (according to the ATF) ship or transfer a firearm; and yes, there have been some truths on how the various shippers will say it can't be done, whether the clerk or counter person actually knows, or whether it is the shippers policy. Just as a FFL holder can determine how or if he does transfers while maintaining compliance, so to can a shipper. Just because it's legal doesn't mean they HAVE to do it.
. . . . flak jacket on . . . .
You should edit this post so that this kind of crap does not lead someone to thinking this is how things are supposed to be done by an FFL........If you truly feel this is correct, you should sit down with the cool little book that contains the shalls and shall nots that the shop was given and do a little reading.....
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Instead of merely saying "This is all wrong", why don't you and/or Skidrow tell us what, exactly, is incorrect, and tell us the proper information?
While it's true that all liberals are crazy people, not all crazy people are liberals.
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Instead of merely saying "This is all wrong", why don't you and/or Skidrow tell us what, exactly, is incorrect, and tell us the proper information? If a firearm goes in the book, it needs to be disposed of in one of two ways: 1. A 4473 from an individual who does not possess a FFL and lives in the state. 2. Out to an FFL holder in another state recorded in the A&D book as the receiving FFL holders number. No more, no less If its in the shop, it better be in the book (for the most part, there are exceptions). If its listed in the book and no longer in the shop they just need to know where it went. Plain and simple.
Last edited by 78CJ; 04/22/15. Reason: Should not have included state laws,....
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 43,755 |
“ The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”. All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered. Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
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Joined: Oct 2002
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 |
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 |
The shipping FFL must complete a 4473 showing the transfer to the distant FFL holder, and retain a copy of the distant FFL holders FFL. (Note, this can be somewhat controversial at a later date during an ATF compliance inspection, and depending on the inspector subjectiveness. Some will say that a printed copy of the results from an ATF E-Z Check suffices, others will require the presence of the FFL copy). The distant FFL holder will show acquisition from the shipping FFL, and will in-turn require the receiving individual to complete a 4473 and background check, and show disposition to the individual.
The rub comes when a FFL holder is also a UPS/FedEx/USPS shipper, and merely provides a 'convenient', no hassle shipping point. If the FFL holder does not do as mentioned above (bound book entries to show acquisition and disposition) and the receiving FFL shows acquisition as being FROM the FFL and not the INDIVIDUAL, then the 'audit trail' of the firearm is broken. Believe me it happens. Joe's Gun Shop, 123 Any Street, Yourtown, XX, (address on the UPS/FedEx/USPS label) ships a gun to Bob's Sports Shop, 789 Backstreet, Histown, YY (both FFL holders). Bob's enters the gun in his bound book as being acquired from Joe's, or contacts Joe's and says "I need a copy of your FFL," despite a note inside the packaging that has all the information (name, address, photo copy of driver's license, et al) regarding the INDIVIDUAL that actually had the gun shipped. From this point on things can get messy - DAMHIKT.
As I mentioned I work in a gun store, and handle a number of transfers. I also see one of the local ATF guys about once a week - he buys a lot of stuff. It's a good time to get clarification. That said, his recommendation (and he has done our compliance inspection in the past) is that if it comes in the front door and goes out the back is should be logged in the bound book. I'll add that there is a company out there called FFL-Guard. Their staff is comprised largely of lawyers intimately familiar with firearms law, and former ATF agents and inspectors. Their job, if hired, is to provide procedural counsel to FFL holders regarding day-to-day operations and in court. Their recommendations mirror those of the local agent I spoke of.
As I alluded to in an earlier post, few have contributed here that hold or operate under a FFL (sorry, C&Rs don't count). As such much that has been professed here should be be considered advice from an arm-chair quarterback, or barracks lawyer. Yes, there have been some truths expressed as to how and individual can legally (according to the ATF) ship or transfer a firearm; and yes, there have been some truths on how the various shippers will say it can't be done, whether the clerk or counter person actually knows, or whether it is the shippers policy. Just as a FFL holder can determine how or if he does transfers while maintaining compliance, so to can a shipper. Just because it's legal doesn't mean they HAVE to do it.
. . . . flak jacket on . . . .
WOW, talk about not knowing. Impressive
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 43,755
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 43,755 |
Contiguous state has nothing to do with the law. Either an FFL can sell a long gun to you because it's legal in your state of residence, or he can't. I can go to Florida and buy a rifle or shotgun just the same as I could go to Iowa or Kansas. Handguns can't be sold across state lines to an individual at all (leaving out the federal case that's in progress).
“ The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”. All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered. Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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If the "sending ffl" needs to fill out a form 4473, then distributors like Bud's should be doing the same, right?
Yes, lots of misinformation posted here.
And to those wanting to know the truth, CALL ATF. You still might not get the correct answer, but take down his name, so he knows he can't just state his opinion vs actually confirming what he tells you. Better yet, send ATF an email and get a documented reply, for if and when you need to verify you did what he told you to do.
Expecting "the law" to be reported CORRECTLY on an internet website, and following what someone "thinks" is the law, will get time in the pen...LOL
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,340
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Contiguous state has nothing to do with the law. Either an FFL can sell a long gun to you because it's legal in your state of residence, or he can't. I can go to Florida and buy a rifle or shotgun just the same as I could go to Iowa or Kansas. Handguns can't be sold across state lines to an individual at all (leaving out the federal case that's in progress). Right I should have left state laws out of it
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 448
Campfire Member
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The guy that I use charges me $15 and will accept from a private sale. I was very happy when I found him, and send him all the bisniuess I can.
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,145
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Amazon, etc. collect sales tax because if they can't show that the individual paid the tax, the state can collect it from them. The state can't audit you for payment (yet) but guess who they can audit, charge, and probably add a fine.
FFLs tend to do FFL to FFL because of stolen property. How do you prove that you were not knowingly receiving stolen property as a fence, especially to a often hostile organization? Particularly for people who are extremely careless in who they deal with and/or you don't really know or know at all.
'How the FFL is supposed to do it'? Why would companies or people take risks like this for you? Why do you expect it?
I am more surprised that you can find anyone, other then family or friends who will do it. And it is only going to get worse.
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Joined: Oct 2002
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 |
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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