Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Good Book:"The Decisive Duel: Spitfire vs. 109"

On the topic of unsustainable losses, even as the Luftwaffe was slowly being bled out by the Russians, this is how bad it got for the RAF....

Fighter Command realized that 'This year we are worse off for formation leaders and experienced pilots than we were in 1941'. In March 1942, Fighter Command resumed large-scale offensive operations over the Continent. In April alone, over 100 Spitfires were lost carrying out offensive operations, the RAF was losing more aircraft that the Luftwaffe by a ratio of four to one.... RAF losses mounted as the Fw 190 continued to demonstrate its superior performance to the Spitfire V. German radar coverage and fighter control had also improved since 1941.....

On 13th June, by which time Fighter Command had lost 259 fighters since March, the Air Staff realized that 'the balance of casualties was against us....'

Fighter Command would continue its war of attrition. Douglas projected it would cost Fighter Command 330 Spitfires and 112 pilots per month. They had shot down fifty-eight German aircraft (though claimed over three times that number) but, in July, the RAF flew only half the offensive sorties of the previous month.

It was going to need a new fighter before it could effectively take on the numerically inferior Luftwaffe.

Birdwatchr

July 1942, as per Jorge.....

It was now the turn of Fw 190 pilots to demand explanations from clueless intelligence officers, they had encountered Spitfires that out-performed them.... Rushed through development and into production, the Spitfire IX first flew on 20 September, 1941 and first went into action with 64 Squadron, based at RAF Hornchurch, on 28 July 1942...

As it looked just like a Spitfire V, the new high performance Spitfire IX was a surprise to the German pilots who encountered it... The Spitfire IX was able to achieve superiority over both the Fw 190 and the Bf 109G...

Originally designed for high altitude bombers, the Merlin 61 engine was the reason for the success of the Spitfire IX. Its two-stage supercharger essentially consisted of two supercharger blowers in series, one feeding the other, separated by an intercooler that reduced the temperature of the air and increased its density.... The Merlin 61 required a four-blade propeller to absorb the extra power and a second enlarged underwing radiator to cool the intercooler. Ideally, a larger-diameter three-blade propeller would have been more efficient, but limited ground clearance.... prevented this.

At sea-level, the Merlin 61 produced 1560 hp compared to the Merlin 45 powering the Spitfire V. But the real advantage was apparent at 30,000 feet, when the Merlin 61 was capable of 1020 hp as opposed to 750 hp... More power at high altitude delivered superior performance to that of the Bf 109G and FW 190A.

Rolls-Royce were able to incorporate the Merlin 61's additional blower in a slightly enlarged cowling. It could be installed in a Spitfire with minimum redesign. The Spitfire IX's structure was reinforced, weighing 600lbs more than the Spitfire V. Most Spitfire IXs were armed with two 20mm cannon and four .303 machine guns... US made .50-caliber Brownings were also used in place of pairs of .303 machine guns on some Spitfire IXs and later models...

..the Bf109 could still accelerate faster in a dive and maintain a steeper angle... but its stiff controls and the need to apply physical force to pull out of a high=speed dive meant that many less thoroughly-trained pilots were unwilling to use it.

I'm not sure how many versions of the Merlin engines there were, but they even used it in some tanks. It was as versatile as the US Allison, which was used in PT boats as well as aircraft.

Indeed. It's difficult to wrap one's brain around the progression of logistical acceleration that occurred between 1941 and 1945, looking back from 2015 in my armchair with my book and my pipe & slippers... but one factoid I read in Deighton's Fighter yesterday gives some perspective: the Luftwaffe in the winter of 1944-45 was losing as many fighters in a single week of combat as they lost in the entire Battle of Britain in 1941, and on one occasion lost that many fighter in a single day. Despite the tremendous damage being inflicted by strategic bombing of his factories, Speer had increased aircraft manufacturing capability 10-fold (or more) by 1944.

This thread got me going, so I am re-reading Galland's First And Last and I've ordered his Luftwaffe Fighter, as well as the book that got this thread started. Galland speaks how fighter production was indeed tenfold what is was in 41, and had they even had a third of it during the Battle Of Britain, they could have probably been more successful.
Another issue he is very adamant about, was the Brits were one hell of a tough, qualified and determined opponent and he speaks highly of them throughout the book.

Not just the Brits, but there were alot of other nationalities flying for Fighter Command, especially as the war progressed.

I remember watching a documentary about the development of reconstructive/plastic surgery during WW2, and many of the recipients were RAF pilots who had received horrific facial and body burns while bailing out of stricken aircraft..The disfiguration some of those young men suffered was truely horrific and we (Brits) should never forget what we owe that generation..

Sure. there were a lot of Empire fliers, even us "colonials", nevertheless, all Brit trained and equipped.

The things at Albert Speer did to increase armament product while being bombed into oblivion were amazing.

Master Race....

As Deighton points out, only 2 of the top 10 RAF aces of WW2 were Brits. The other 8 were Canadian, ANZACs, Polish, Czech, and South African.



Indeed.

The (non-self-sealing) fuel tank in the Spitfire was located behind the engine and in front of the instrument panel. Not a great location, from a burn-prevention standpoint. In the Mk V and Mk XI and later models they added a firewall, but prior to that most pilots with engine/fuel fires were incinerated in the cockpit. Capt. Peter Townsend described his burns rather graphically as "watching my flesh bubble and boil before my eyes". Nasty, nasty business.

The Germans who racked up huge numbers flew on the eastern front primarily. Very few did really well against the Brits and US fighters. One guy that has always intrigued me though was Hans Joachim Marseille. 158 kills almost all of which were western pilots.

While the Spit and FW 190 were indeed great aircraft, the one fighter that truly made a difference was the Mustang. You could interchange a Hellcat for a Spit, a 190 for the 109 toss in P-38s, Corsairs, etc. The results would not fundamentally change. But you can't substitute any fighter of the time for the Mustang for one reason, it could get to the fight over Germany.

WWII fighters is a great subject! Just got to crawl on some WWII aircraft when they were here for the big fly-by in DC. Love them!

If'n you're referring to the Germans, this was a popular ditty at the time....



"When Herr Goering says 'They'll never bomb this place'....."



I can still remember my grandad, who was a fireman during the Blitz, remembering the song and laughing.

I was watching a documentary on the Nuremburg Trials the other day. On the day of the executions, after it was all over, there was a disturbance outside the prison. All the drivers of all the dignitaries had clustered together around one limo with a good radio and some station was playing Der Fuehrer's Face. Everyone was singing and whooping it up, including a bunch of the local citizenry.

Everyone inside the prison suddenly knew the war was really over.

With the fall of France and Norway in 1940, Britian came into posession of several hundred P-36 aircraft. Testing them against the then current Spit model, they were found to be superior in all areas except rate of climb and top speed.

Might be my longest-ever post on the 'Fire. From the book...

On 5 October 1944, a bright and partially overcast autumn day... the Spitfire had its first encounter with an Me 262. The jet was bombing, as Hitler had wanted, but from over 13,000 feet, the bombs fell inaccurately.

Near Nijmegen [bridge] in the Nederlands, Squadron Leader 'Rod' Smith... a twelve victory ace... was leading a patrol of twelve Spitfire IXs from 401 Squadron RCAF at 13,000 feet... Alerted by radar warnings through a ground controller, he turned the patrol up sun.

He sighted an Me 262 coming head-on 500 feet below. He went into a port climbing turn and I turned starboard after him'.... Hauptmann Hans-Christoff Bittmann, the KG51 bomber pilot flying the Me 262, apparently did not like the twelve-to-one odds. He decided to use the jet's superior speed to outrun his attackers. Smith reported 'He then dived down towards the bridge twisting and turning and half rolling at very high speeds. He flew across Nijmegen turing from side to side.'

The chase was on, the Spitfires half rolled after the Me 262, their engines at full boost. Flight Lieutenant Hedley 'Snook' Everard... joined the pursuit 'My Spit was screaming for the deck about 800 yards behind the unrecognizable aircraft. A glance at the airspeed indicator confirmed that I had exceeded the maximum safe flying speed for a Spitfire. Although the flight controls stiffened up alarmingly, I pursued my prey.'...

The little white needle on his airspeed indicator had gone past the red line, which meant he was following the fleeing jet at a speed no Spitfire was designed or built to fly... what the men who worked the drawing boards called the transonic flight regime. The Spitfire was buffeted as the airflow broke away from the wings... had Everard taken his eyes off the Me 262, he would have seen a opaque mist forming above each of the Spitfire's wings as this shock wave hit the moister air during his dive to low altitude....

Bittmann spiralled down to low altitude, hoping to shake his attackers or that their wings would come off in the screaming dives. Flying Officer John McKay, Everard's wingman, followed him as the jet dived... McKay, closing in on the fleeing jet, got in 'Rod" Smith's line of fire. Smith called out on the radio 'For God's sake, shoot!' That is what McCay did. 'Following it down to the ground. firing whenever I could get my sight on the aircraft. Saw strikes on the after part of the fuselage and port or starboard wing root'

Everard fired too I first opened fire at 900 yards and followed it, chasing all the time... I blacked out as the excessive... forces buffeted my aircraft.... At 5,000 feet he began to level out, heading south. Smith saw the Me 262 was increasing its lead over several Spitfires, which were chasing but were out of range.

With his Spitfire now in thicker air and the speed limit for transonic flight rising, Everard was able to keep control.... he used the momentum from his transonic dive to close the range. Everard attacked... Throttling back, not to overshoot, I opened fire with machine guns only from 150 yards. A streamer of white smoke came from it and it accelerated rapidly, drawing away. Smith... was back chasing the Me 262 in the pack of Spitfires. He had seen Everard's attack. I saw a Spitfire get some strikes on him and he streamed white smoke from the starboard wing root. He flew on at a very high speed.

Gaining every last bit of speed from his Spitfire, throttle all the way forward, Smith went in for another attack. I managed to get behind him and fire two three-second bursts at 200 to300 yards approximately. Everard, through his peripheral vision, saw Smith come into range. I glimpsed another Spitifre 200 yards astern pouring cannon fire into the crippled Hun.

Bittmann was now on the deck, with no way to pick up speed through diving. Smith and Everard were sticking to him, desperately hanging on behind, wanting him dead. [He] now pulled back on the control stick and threw the Me 262 into a climb. Smith, above him, saw that it zoomed up in the most sustained vertical climb I had ever seen... as it soared up to us, still climbing almost vertically.... its speed, though still very considerable, was beginning to fall off.

Bittmann had traded airspeed for altitude, betting his life that the Spitfires would be unable to follow the jet in its spectacular climb. Smith was not going to let Bittman shake him. As the jet started to climb away, Smith was able to pull up in an almost vertical position, to within 350 yards behind. I aimed at one of the engine nacelles and was able to fire a burst lasting about eight seconds. Everard also hung on Bittmann's tail as he climbed. His Spitfire was able to follow the jet, firing all the way. Saw strikes on him in the port and starboard engine nacelles.

Bittmann was now caught by the remainder of the Canadians, who had been above him, diving at high speed after him. Everard saw in rapid succession three other Spits made high-speed passes, all registering strikes on the now flame-streaked fighter. Badly hit, Bittmann's climb was slowing. Flight Lieutenant Gus Sinclair was able to close in. I turned in behind and fired four or five-second bursts, saw strikes before he was crowded out by Smith and, closing in again, McKay.

Each attacking Spitfire, at high speed from their dives in pursuit.... overshot the climbing crippled jet and reversed, the Spitfire pilots kicking their rudder pedals and throwing their control sticks hard over to reverse direction as quickly as they could, to get another shot at the climbing jet, to stop him from getting away. Bittmann, his damaged jet slowing even further in its climb, was out of airspeed but not yet out of ideas.

As he approached a stall, his engines still throttled all the way up, he pressed his right rudder pedal full forward, stood the jet on its wingtip, and pushed it into a stall turn, aiming to cartwheel around and go back into a dive. Smith who had been behind him, hanging on, losing airspeed as he climbed, was also on the edge of a stall. He too reversed in a right stall turn, refusing to let Bittmann escape. Halfway through our stall turns, when our noses had come down level with the horizon but our wings were almost vertical, I felt as if I were in a slow-motion line-abreast formation with the 262, directly below it.... [I] broke to starboard under him and he turned down to starboard behind me.



Smith had become the hunted rather than the hunter... instant flash of gunfire from the Me 262's nose. Bittmann's shot missed Smith. But Smith was vulnerable, his nose down. The Me 262, having turned, was pointing its nose with its four lethal cannon at Smith, in his blind spot, above and behind him. But before Bittmann could pick up airspeed again in the dive, 'Tex' Davenport's Spitfire closed to 300 yards astern and emptied the remainder of my guns into the kite, observing strikes all over the engines and fuselage. The aircraft was burning all this time. The pilot seemed to be unhurt and was putting up a good fight all during this.

Bittmann, his jet riddled and burning, its nose pointing down, had one last desperate move to make. I thought at the time he was trying to attack me, even though in flames. Smith reported. McKay saw it too, the aircraft pulled up to the right and then dove down on a Spit, seeming to want to ram the Spitfire. Tex Davenport saw the end: At last, realizing the fight was up, he attempted to ram Red 1 on his way to the ground where he crashed and burned.

As 401 Squadron turned back to their airfield , their pilots saw, in a field near the Rhine, the smoking crater.... Johnny Johnson recalled a great party to celebrate the event.... But the twilight of the piston-engined fighter had started. Everard's Spitfire barely survived its high-g pull-out following its encounter with the sound barrier. Both wings of my Spit were wrinkled and I knew it would never fly again.

I just noticed, during that brilliant film clip, everyone is flipping the bird when they raise their arm to shout "Heil"

That could be the earliest middle-finger salute ever recorded on film.


Anyways, according to my mom and her parents, that song captured the sentiments of the British, so much so I had thought it was British in origin until I googled it just now.

Wasn't that essentially a P-40 airframe with a radial engine, or more accurately, wasn't the P-40 a P-36 fitted with an Allison?

RAF Ace Robert Stanford Tuck, a Battle of Britain veteran, flew the P-35 Seversky when he was visiting Texas during the war, IIRC he said he could have fought successfully in that fighter.

One is reminded of the case with the Brewster Buffalo in Finland as opposed to the Pacific. Tactics counted for a lot.

Birdwatcher

Yep, P-36 to P-40. That Allison engine just wasn't a Merlin.
Chenault(sp?) used a fixed landing gear P-36 to develope the tactics used by the Flying Tigers(AVG)against the Japanese.

The Finns also had a number of P-36s that worked well against the Soviets early on.

Mike, that account of 401 Squadron's victory over a single Me262 is telling... it needed multiple aircraft getting many, many bullet hits on the German jet fighter to knock it down.

As the excerpt you've quoted says eloquently, this was the end of the prop fighter. It wasn't just that the jets were faster. Their airframes had to be more robust to harness all that power, which meant that machinegun bullets were of no value unless you got literally hundreds of hits on the target, or you were very very lucky and shot into an engine turbine.

A friend I went to college with was the son of a West German air force officer who flew Me262's. He visited his son on one occasion and he took us all out to dinner, then happily regaled us with tales of WW2 dogfights. He was a very wealthy man. He told us that he made his initial fortune by selling Me262's to Spain in the waning days of the war. The logistics seemed sketchy to me at the time, but what do I know?