Home Forums Hunting & Shooting BPCR Article on barrel break-in process posted

I agree with you on the Carbon, and just don't get to wrapped around the axle in that regard.

AFTER the initial 10 or 20 copper slugs have gone down range, with no more than a little windex patching 'tween shots, and keeping things COOL THAN is the time to get right after demolishing every SPECK of Copper fouling or streaking.
As a BP dedicated arm, it'll never see a copper bullet again.

GTC

A bunch of the confusion comes when folks that are smokeless, highvelocity type shootes get involved in the low pressure low speed tons of fouling and goo of the blackpowder cartridge world.
You do need to remove the carbon , as there may just be some lead and accumulated blackpowder fouling hidden under that.. Anybody ever heard modern day smokeless shooter whine about barrel pitting in old rifles? Aside from the mercuric priming, stuff hidden under the "carbon" has been setting there slowly etching barrel steel.
Clean up an old "pitted" and dark bore of a rifle from the pre smokeless days, and often a lot of that pitting goes away, but yet you will be bringing out fine rust on the cleaning patches.
I'll bet an owners manual from a VW jetta will work just fine for the Dodge cummins diesel,,, after all they're both diesel engines..

I'll add this. The only lead I shoot is rimfire and some down loaded 458 Lott and 454 Casull.
My experience is with jacketed bullets. Now in what context was Cryo used? Most barrel cryo folks do not have the proper equip. to do a deep true cryo. I do have a lot of experience with cryo on barrels and see it as a waste of time and money. It does not stress relieve barrels. I think you will find that Kreiger no longer does cryo.

So are you using Swiss, or APP with those jacketed bullets? What bpcr matches are you shooting with jacketed bullets? Or are you just hunting on occasion.

Dunno' about Krieger.

Easy to answer the bolded red re: "In what context" though,
..... from the article,(that one has but to read) :



The cryo temp was a proprietary situation, and the article (proof read by Ernie and his lovely missus the English teacher WAS published with that question mark,.....

"Proper equipment",....now that's just flat out funny.

GTC

Voodoo, thy name is Cryo

Steel gets hard because it wants to be in a different crystal structure, depending on the alloy and temperature.

If we say a typical heat treatable steel, say 4140:

1. At room temp, it wants to be in a ferrite structure, provided of course it was previously slow cooled (annealed, and soft).
2. Heat it up into red heat ~1300°F the microstructure changes to austenite.
3. Cool it very slowly, it changes back into ferrite.
4. Cool it rapidly (quench it) it changes into martensite, which is hard and brittle.
5. Temper the martensite, and the material is reduced in hardness, but gains toughness. Tempering for most steels is anywhere between 400°F and and 1000°F.
6. The finished hardness is stronger than mild steel, but is not brittle, and is tough.

In most cases, when material is quenched, not all of the material changes from austenite to martensite. Some % remains, and this "retained austenite" is the subject of cryo treatments. The theory is that a cryo treatment (over 100 degrees below zero) can cause this retained austenite to transform into martensite, improving the metal. Most cryo treaters will then re-run tempering afterwards, to ensure this newly formed martensite gets tempered the same way the rest of the part did previously.

I've experimented with cryo in the past, to see if it would improve the durability of some tools. I never saw enough benefit to justify the hassle. And once or twice, the tool cracked.

But I knew a heat treater in the Bay Area who was happy to cryo treat high-end speakers. His customer swore it made them sound better. Dat be Voodoo...

Greg,
I read what you posted 4 times. Try reading my link from the real cryo company. They ain't 300 below. www.metal-wear.com/Theory You heat a CM or SS barrel to the temps you mentioned and it will anneal the barrel.
To the other fellow, I believe I mentioned the only lead bullets that I shot were for plinking with my 458 Lott, my Grandson's 454 Casull, and my 22 rimfire. I have only watched BPCR matches. I have not a clue as to what Swiss and APP means.

Greg, I will reiterate, most people, barrelmakers included do not have the equip. to do a true deep cryo and couldn't charge what it would cost them to do an effective job.
You may question Ernie next time you talk to him.

More reading from Control Thermal Processing.





Liquid Helium Processing

Processing Parts Down to -450oF

Many of our competitors talk about "Deep Cryogenic Processing" at -300oF. We don' consider -300oF deep, because the Cryogenic Society of America defines cryogenics as temperatures below -244oF. (120oK). The reason -300oF (89ok) is so prevalent as a temperature is because it is fairly easy to reach with the use of liquid nitrogen, and liquid nitrogen is fairly inexpensive. We've often wondered what would happen a lower temperatures. We have recently found out while experimenting with liquid helium, which boils at -452oF (4ok). We've found some interesting things happening with stereo and sound reproduction. And we are looking at other applications.

Working with Liquid Helium is more complicated than working with liquid nitrogen, and liquid helium is expensive. Storage and transfer of it in a liquid state are problems that we needed to solve. We are now applying this knowledge to the treatment of sensitive aerospace components and new experimental materials.


They have done quite a bit of barrels for me. I have had them do unmachined blanks, rifled blanks,chambered barrels. They machine better, but shoot no better. They do not clean better and they last no longer.

I guess we can settle on your evaluation of Mr. Stallman being some sorta' HACK as carved in stone, and the product discussed produced in a dive.

Right,....got it.

GTC

Just for gits and shiggles,....you DO understand that what's being discussed here is the cryo and heat soaking of UN-DRILLED raw blanks, Mr.Lambert ?

Alla' that having SFA to do with what a "barrel" would acrue from any of this ?

Voice from peanut gallery whispers,...."No Greg, he don't"

GTC

A FSO (fuel shutoff solenoid) for a 5.9, from Dodge is STUPID pricey.

Get one spec'd for the Jetta,.....same damn part at 1/4 the price.

A properly MANAGED BPCR should not have any lead, or signifigent carbon under which to hide. The vulnerability of old Wrought Iron, and Semi Steel are a complete UNIVERSE away from our fine modern alloys,...

None of mine have rusted away or disolved yet, from the dread BP "Fouling".

I sure agree that 5-600 rounds of "Getting to know ya'" with ones fresh BPCR is THE way to get one's acumen, trust, and brass prep out of the way,.....PRIOR to going all sideways, and looking for blind alleys to rush down (and likely get mugged)

GTC

I guess I got your GOAT Greg. I thought this was a discussion and not [bleep] slinging. I'll have to google Ernie as he seems to be God.
If you would slow down and read my post and links as I have been kind enough to do with yours, you might see where I'm coming from. I learned a long time ago when a person has their back against the wall and blows up, no sense in carrying it further.
I will step down from the pulpit and let you continue.

I'll grant that you don't seem to know much at all about a major ICON in the BPCR game.

No I don't think he's God, and I'm not (bleep) slingin', Mister.
I'm not blowing up , either.

I'll agree that it's always a good idea to have a firm grasp on one's subject material before getting into a pulpit, too.

GTC

Crickets

Greg,
I didn't know I upset you that bad. Just trying to point out my view.
Sorry guy.

Not upset, just telling it like it IS.



Rather than drifting off into some morass of "Feelings" and states of mind, it would be pretty SKOOKUM of you to answer this question, Butch.


GTC

Greg,
I sent you an email, but will answer your question. First the OP posted about barrel breakin and not cryo. You may have brought up cryo and I responded with my opinion from a lot of experience with a real cryo company. I posted that I have done it with "undrilled" blanks, drilled and rifled blanks, and chambered blanks. I have done them with cryo only on the blanks, only on drilled and rifled, and complete chambered barrels.
I won't post on this anymore.

Stick around Butch.

You still shootin BR guns?
When you hang with those people you'll learn more about barrels than you could any other way. But then what do they know, they only shoot the most accurate rifles in the world.
Gale wrote a piece quoting something Dan said 20 or so years back about breaking in a barrel.

Seriously dude? You're in the BLACK POWDER CARTRIDGE RIFLE forum, laying out like you're some special expert, but yet bad enough not knowing what either Swiss or APP is, but then to have to Google up Ernie Stahlman of Badger barrel fame.... Oh that's just rich...

Aww, c'mon Don,....you know very well that big tall galloot is just some
dumb farmboy from the rust belt.
That bunch of Lawrence Livermore and Sandia labs types that have hung with this "Alloy Refinement" are mostly all BPCR shooters / enthusiasts, and lack the suave panache, and almost unlimited prestige of being
"benchrest shooters, with the most accurate rifles in the world."
Hell,..... the poor bastids don't even replace their barrels, and shoot the poor "annealed" things 10, 15, 20,000 rounds, satisfied with the performance.

sarcasm off.

GTC