Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa .458 Winchester Thoughts

A lot of people claim this is a dead cartridge, that all such rifles should be rechambered to .458 Lott. Or that one of the .416s is superior because it can be used for longer range against plains game. All this puzzles me.

Although there were problems with Winchester's original 458 loading with 748 powder, these have long since been solved by denser powders. Hodgdon's says that 74.0 grains of their VARGET will drive a 500-grain bullet at 2150 fps with 48,100 CUP pressure. VARGET is one of their extreme powders, which means the pressure does not go up as temperature goes up.

2150 fps easily equals the famed .470 Nitro Express ballistics, which no one doubts are sufficient for dangerous game. In fact, the .458 probably exceeds the .470 by 100 fps or so. Original Kynoch ballistics assumed a 28" barrel, though most double rifles actually sold had shorter barrels.

The .458 Lott adds perhaps 100 fps to the .458 Winchester. Hardly necessary, I think. That's sort of like what happens when you Ackley Improve a 30-06. It's may not be worth the effort. I doubt that 1 in 1000 30-06 owners bother to AI their rifles.

As for the .416s, when the .458 is loaded with 400-grain bullets, and sighted in for 150 yards, it will stay within 3" of a .416 Remington out to 300 yards, a difference which seems irrelevant for big bore rifles. And you can't use a 500-grain bullet for thick-skinned game with a .416.

So what's wrong with the .458? What am I missing? Or...does it really make any difference to shoot a .458 instead of a .375, the recoil of which is much easier to manage?

Indy, great post, and I'm not sure that you've missed anything!

I've used the 458 Win. Mag. before on buffalo, hippo, and zerba in Africa, and it worked very well. I used Federal factory ammo loaded with 500 gr. Trophy Bonded solids and softs at just under 2100 fps. MV out of my rifle's 22" bbl., and those 500 gr. solids shot through buffalo end-to-end, went through both hippo shoulders on broadside shots, and blew a hole completely through the zebra, end-to-end, as well.

I have little doubt that the 458 Win. Mag. has the potential now to be better than it has ever been before, and for the same reasons you've named.

Bigger cases have the ability to push the bullets out of the barrel faster, but because those cases do have more powder room, you'll need to burn more from the get-go just to equal 458 Win. Mag. velocities, so recoil is going to be greater from the start.

My friend Jim Carmichel from 'Outdoor Life' has used the 458 Win. Mag. extensively for over 35 years on lion and elephant, plus over 80 Cape buffalo, and he has absolute confidence in it. He always has loaded old-style 500 gr. Hornady solids, at least for the buff and elephant. I'm not sure what powders he's used, but he's been able to achieve over 2100 fps. with little trouble, at least out of his rifle.

If it wasn't any good, Jim would not have used it as extensively as he has for so many years, you can bet on that.

The biggest problem that the 458 Win. Mag. really has today is that isn't stylish anymore, and its reputation suffers from its earlier failures.............

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Pretty much sum's it up
I am hoping to be able to use mine in 2008 on a Cape Buffalo hunt
I have tried the Lott and find that for me it's just TOO much of a good thing....... everyone has limit's and I know mine

I've owned a couple 458s in the past, both equipped with 22" barrels. They were short, fairly light and very handy to use. I could never get enough powder in the case to get 2100fps with 500gr bullets, but I could manage 2025 on most occasions. I use Varget in several rifles and it's a bit bulky so I have to wonder if you can get 74grs in the case w/o severe powder compression? Either way, 2025fps or 2100fps isn't likely to be noticed in the field on game.
Is it still a worthwhile cartridge? I believe it is, but not nearly as much now that the Lott is commercially loaded. Whatever the 458 can do, the Lott can match and do it much easier. Not nearly as much powder compression, better velocity with equal pressures and the ability to easily digest the long mono-metal bullets are a few of it's advantages. It is what the 458 should have been all along.
Comparing either one to a 375? Not much to compare, IMO. If I'm hunting buffalo, elephant or lion I'll take the 458 hands down over the 375, because IMO the 375 is still a marginal dangerous game rifle in many situations. The 458, properly loaded, is a long way from being just marginal. And this is why the 416s have become so popular. They combine heavier bullet weight than a 375 with less recoil than a 458...a perfect combination! They match the 375 for longer distance shooting, and compare very well to the 458 up close.

I follow John's reasoning here....

If I ran across a 458 win. mag that I really liked, I would have no problems purchasing it or using it on DG, however, I would prefer a 458 Lott for the reasons John outlines.

The 458 Lott's greater case capacity is useful, in particular, using mono-metal bullets that I prefer for DG. Big Bore 45's are stopping rifle used close up and that means 500 grain bullets to me....this is where the Lott's extra case capacity is useful and preferred in my opinion.

My double rifle is in the odd for a double 458.

I can only load what the rifle will shoot well as far as regulation issues go. Even so, I have found an AA 2230 load that shoots 500gr Woodleighs at 2140fps with great accuracy out of my rifle, which has 26" barrels. It just a grain over the starting load, shown in the Hornaday manual, but using the Woodleigh bullet.(Woodleigh recomends using the Hornaday info)

Varget didn't do well in my rifle and was dirty to boot. Another good powder I tried was H 4895, which is an Extreme powder. I think H 335, another Extreme powder, would be worth a go, and I was going to give it a try but stopped playing around when I found the AA 2230 load.

H 4895 propels a 450gr North Fork FN solid at 2190fps with a load about midway in the Hornaday book for their 500gr solids. I had this load pressure tested and it is well under max. This is as fast as my rifle will shoot the NF's without crossing the barrels. If I had a bolt rifle, I would push it faster.

The 500gr Woodleigh solids worked very well on buff and tuskless at about 2025fps last year. The Woodleigh 500gr RN soft worked well on a zebra at about 2050fps also. This year I'm taking the Woodleigh 500gr solid load at 2140fps, the 450gr NF FN solids at 2190fps and the Woodleigh 500gr RN soft load at 2050fps. Looking forward to digging bullets and checking for penetration etc. Will report back.

Editted to add that if I found a good used 458 I'd snatch it up, but if I were going to have a rifle built, I'd go with the Lott.

I bought my DR with the plan to rechamber it to 450NE 3 1/4" but have found no good reason to do it.

JPK

I like the .458 but qualify that by stating that I have owned several as well as test tifles with barrels from 22 inches to 25 inches in the CZ version and overall prefer the Model 70 because of its manouverability in thick scrub.

Also own a .460, had several .45/70's and numerous test rifles anm also owned 4 rifles in .416 as well as test rifles in same.

The .458 hits harder than the .416, any of them, the .460 is the end of the road in power from a bolt action repeater but still leaves open and excuse for a .458.

When loaded with 300 grain X bullets @ 2650 fps it has a point blank range of 248 yards and hits much harder than a .375. Yep, owned and tested those too.

My current .458 has two stocks for it, a plastic beater for lousy weather and a Supergrade stock for looking sharp. The metal work is completely nickel coated with sight blades left blued.

Very pretty, very practical, very dangerous to dangerous game, elk in timber, any bear anywhere, moose in timber, big deer like sambar, Reds, African Antelope and anthing else I can find under a bush.

Absolutely nothing wrong with the .458 with modern powders and bullets. I like 400 grain X bullets for a standard load but these are no longer available so the 400 grain Woodleigh is a beauty as is the 550 grainer. I tend to bypass the 500 grainers as the 550's smack a little harder and can still exceed 2000 fps easily with H335 and H 4198.

The .458 really shines when it uses lighter X bullets in a scoped rifle. Try it, but remember, you can always bore it out to a Lott but you cannot put the toothpaste back into the tube.

AGW

Kee-reist! Now I'm relly confused.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> jorge

John that gets me back to where I'm currently at:

Get rid of the 458, leave the 375 at home, and run with the 416.......... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

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Allen,
If you go with the .416, get the the Remmy version. It is just a big .375. If you can use one, you can use the other.

The .416 Weatherbys are neither your A-- nor your elbow. Not quite a .460 and more .378 than you need, or will find pleasureable to use.

Now the .458 and a .460, now that's a pair of huntin' rifles.

AGW

Ive used both the 458 and the 458 Lott for a long time now. I've never reloaded the 458 win, but used the rifle of a fellow who was quite the 458 reloading craftsman. Pieters loads with a 22" barrel never achieved 2100fps but were always just shy of that. I think the claims of 2150 must be with a 24" barrel.

Not that there is anything wrong with 2100fps or very close. Certainly it was no issue for him, and he has worked as a PH for almost 30 years now. His stress with the 458 was in using ball powder which in his words were not giving him consistant velocity. His claim was that it was not good in the heat with the poor temp tolerance of the ball powders.

I've been loading and shooting the 458 Lott for a long time now as well. It can shoot 2300fps without any effort using lots of combinations. As often happens people load up lesser cartridges to a near equal velocity of a larger one and then claim it's nearly identical. However you can then load up the larger cartridge with the same skills and components to achive levels well out of reach of the smaller one. The point is you can never make the smaller one equal to the bigger one when loaded to the max of each.

I am not currently loading the Lott that fast and most likely never will. I shoot 450 grain X bullets exclusive for the last 5 years or so. They are going 2250fps which is still probably faster then needed because I've only recovered 1 of them. Prior to that I was using 450 and 500 grain swift Aframes for some work. They were shot from 2250 to nearly 2350 trying to figure out what works. I recoverd about 5 of those, one from the skull of a croc when shooting it through 3 feet of water as it swam by me wounded and escaping. I say three feet of water as a clear estimate. I did not measure it. However the croc was pulling itself along the bottom of the river and there was certainly a minimum of 2 foot of water above him. I'm not sure how much that bullet was slowed by the water but the crocs head was pulverised under the skin.

I had mention to Piete that the Lott is only 200 fps faster then the Win Mag when using a 22" barrel, the original designed length for the Lott and certainly the most comfortable length for a PH in the bush. He wisley pointed out "yeah about 10%"

Somehow when in conversation 200fps does not seem as great as when saying 10%. I think the beauty of the Lott is the flexibilty of having that extra space and power if you want it. Like having the 357 over the 38 special, the 44 mag over the 44 special, etc. Certainly with todays powders and bullets you can use a 458win mag with great success. (You can even shoot the 458 win mag in the 458 Lott rifle!) Although I'm not sure it will work ideal with the longer X bullets which in my opinion are the ablosute best bullets I've ever shot in the 458 diameter for shooting bigger game and follow ups on wounded game.

The PH's and Gamescouts in Zimbabwe still use the 458 Winchester a LOT. That speaks volumes to me. I gave one in a Model 70 Super Grade to a PH and he used it with great effect until he was killed in a non hunting incident. It is, however, best suited as a close range weapon for extra large game only or a backup rifle for a PH and I still feel most of us are far better served with a 375 or one of the 416's.