A friend of mine shot a buck last Saturday with the hunting Berger VLD and it did what I had seen before. I have to ask him what caliber and which gr. bullet it was. Shot @ 80 yds, no blood trail, bullet went to shrapnel with minimal damage to lungs, exited a small pencil size hole. He has put that rifle up for the season and is pulling all his loads.

More info later.

KLM

How far did the deer run?

John

Another "Bullet Failure" that was recovered from a DEAD animal???

Help us out here. What calibre? What weight of bullet? If the bullet went to shrapnel, how did he have a exit hole? Don't just leave us hanging.

I can't see how it could go into shrapnel and not destroy the lungs.

Did your friend actually look inside, or just because of the small exit whole he is assuming there was no internal damage?

BBerg

"Hunting" VLD's are no different than regular VLD & these are not designed as "hunting" bullets as TSX's, Partitions & Accubonds are per se'.

If you want to believe the marketing hipe, have at it, but there's lots better legitimate hunting bullets to choose from than VLD's, and AB's for example, have about the same BC's in same weights/cailbers as the VLD's .

MM

a plain old Remington Corelokt or Hornady SP would have worked just fine I bet...

why to people try something new and trendy, when there are plenty of old "non premium" bullets that have worked just fine for decades??

I just wish Hornady still made the old 129 and 140 grain RN bullets in 6.5 bore...I'd be using them exclusively...

80 yds, and a VLD bullet?

That's like taking a top fuel dragster for a trip to the corner store.

Maybe it's a case of shooter failure and not bullet failure.

Failure (on the shooters part) to identify that an old fashioned round nosed bullet was actually needed for the 80 yd shot.

I don't get it, why use a specialty long range bullets for in your face shots.

Some folks need to give their bean bag a good ol shake, and start understanding the issues surrounding terminal ballistics.

And here is ANOTHER Berger VLD bullet failure. Notice the exit wound on this antelope taken at about 290 yards. The bullet obviously didn't expand or maybe what happened is that it it turned to shrapnel and did very little damage to the lungs.

Yea, and has others have mentioned, how did a bullet turn to shrapnel in the lungs and do very little damage? This would be a miracle close to walking on water. And how was there a small exit hole when the bullet turned to shrapnel? And, at what point in the animals demise did the bullet fail?

During what part of the deer's death did the bullet fail? Can't blow apart without damage to something important to the deer's life. Barnes bullets at times make small exit holes as do partitions. Sounds like hunter misunderstanding and not bullet failure. Depending on shot placement blood may not be found immediately, high lung. The hunter just may not have been at the correct spot to find blood. But blaming the bullet is always the easy way out.Rick.

jees, guys.
i've seen bullets nuke on a shoulder and the base whistle through leaving splash wound/puncture wound. i call that a failure too whether or not that shot killed. not sayin' that is exactly what happened here, but it can and does happen.

I agree. The original post does sound suspect but at the same time just because you pull a bullet out of a dead critter doesn't make it a thumbs up performance.

Exactly. There are so many contradictions in 6.5wnitetail's post that it's hard to figure out exactly what the complaint it.

I shot another big game animal with a Berger VLD this fall, a pronghorn buck at about 160 yards with a 140 from a 6.5-06. The buck was angled slightly away, so I aimed for the middle of the ribs. The bullet did the usual VLD thing: went in a couple of inches before turning to shrapnel and making a huge mess of the lungs. The buck went about 30 feet (not yards) before going down.

Part of the bullet exited at the rear edge of the far shoulder, but that doesn't matter one way or the other. What matters is that the bullet killed the pronghorn, pronto, like every other VLD I've seen hit an animal in the chest.

I told you "More Info Later" , I have to get the full story at Thanksgiving dinner today. Last year the VLD I saw do this was at 260 yds out of a .300 winny (175gr. VLD ). So the dragster and short range BS doesn't cut it!

KLM

I'm not getting into the terminal effects argument here, but you do realize 260 yards is short range for a 300 mag shooting a 175 VLD. Right?

Uhhhh, 260 yards ain't short range if I'm doing the shooting. What's a fellow supposed to do? Go out with a dozen or so different boutique bullets for different ranges? We've got good hunting bullets that do perform over a wide range of distances.
NPs come to mind. As well as common old Core Lokts. As long as you don't try to drive them at some ungodly Boyhowdylookwhatican do velocity.

I'm not saying the VLD didn't perform because the deer was too close. I am saying that with the flat trajectory and power of the 300 mag on tap if you're steady then 260 isn't a big deal.

Hell, if I'm steady with my 300 Savage something the size of a clay pigeon is in mortal danger at 300 yards using a little holdover.

Ok here is the skinny on the failure. Berger VLD 140 gr. 6.5x55 @ 80 yds. Shot high in the lungs, no blood trail. He had to make circles in the woods to find the deer. Pencil sized exit with shrapnel in the neck, spine, and very little lung damage. Deer went 70 yds after the shot.

You can say , but he found the deer so no failure.....geez maybe he should carry bullets for deer under 300 and shoot these VLD's over 300.....damn stupid! Shoo deer get out there a little further these bullets wont perform under 300 yds....LOL


I shot a buck @ 375 yds with a 140 gr. corelokt from a .280 He didnt go 10 yds. Blood bath all around.

You can shoot them if you want. I'll stick to TSX's and Nosler's.


KLM

The deer @ 260 happened to be 2 seprate deer at the same time. Both took 2 to the lungs and still managed to run and jump a fence. 1 was still laying there head up and had to be dispatched with a pistol. I loaded the deer and helped the guy butcher them.....I wont shoot them ever !

My late father shot a deer perfect broadside tight behind the leg with an early 130 grain .277" Ballistic Tip, range was inside 200 yards. This was from a 26" barreled 270 and MV was approx 3200 fps.

The contents of the chest cavity was mostly spread out in a bloody swath on the exit side of the deer. It still made it farther than 70 yards.

Did the bullet fail?

Heck, I shot a buck at 30 yards, through the center of the ribs just behind the shoulder with a 350 grain .50 caliber bullet a few years back. Approximate MV only about 1,600. Two holes, blood and lung tissue all over the sage brush 25 yards behind the deer. He ran over a hundred. Crashed into a 2' Ponderosa, and he was DRT.

How about the shooter failed to shoot low enough on the deer to kill it faster?

How about no blood trail ? I have never lost a single deer shot with a centerfire rifle......0 ! Always had plenty of blood to follow. What good would a dead deer be if you cant find it?

KLM

Not unusual for that shot.

Not unusual, and sounds like he knows what he's doing.

Where did he shoot that deer again and what angle?

Again, not unusual, and it sounds like the bullet hit something to kill it.


I don't use VLD's but these threads about failed bullets in dead deer make me shake my head.

Like I said before, you can shoot them all you want, but I have seen 2 bad reactions and performances. I have never not had a good blood trail. Both guy's that I saw shoot these were unimpressed, even though one of the guys has killed plenty of deer with VLD, he even questioned the performance after what he found. I dont have a dog in the fight I'm just saying I wont shoot them and I know one of these guys wont ever again either.

KLM

Just finished an Ontario WT hunt and put a 168VLD from my 300WM into the boiler room at 80 yards. Worked as advertised. I was impressed. The fragments busted the opposite shoulder, no exit.

I was geared up for some LR shots and as expected he came out from under me. I was concerned with the close shot pushing the VLD shy of 3200 but the bullet did the job. The innards were mush.

Walt Bergers email to me stated weight selection is important for terminal performance. He didn't recommend the 168 but the 155 VLD for WT's. I think some hunters are experiencing pencil throughs by not reasearching.

Wade

Not a big VLD fan here, but 70 yards after a lung shot sounds like what I'd expect out of any bullet.

Hate to clue you in Dude, but eventually your vaunted Corelokts are gonna fail to leave you a bloodtrail, too. You can't dictate bullet performance prior to the shot. You can't dictate how a deer is going to react to a bullet either. Some die right there, others run and run. If you are hunting tight cover, then you should probably be taking shots that will take out the CNS so they drop quick. Lung shot deer "can" cover significant distances - with any bullet. If you don't want them to run - then maybe you shouldn't be shooting them in the lungs - period.

I've used many bullets in my 31 years of deer hunting - Corelokts, Sierras, Noslers, Hornady's, Barnes and yes, Berger VLDs. Most of them have worked very well, while still having the odd "performance flaw". I'd use most of them again, based on the past performance if I felt the desire. I just like trying different things. The Bergers are some of the most accurate bullets I've tried, though.

Kaiser Norton

Kaiser,

I dont shoot corelokt's anymore except to get on paper, but in 30 years I never had one fail to leave a blood trail. I've shot them all different places: high shoulder, high back,lungs,heart, neck, and head. The heart can beat on average of 13.5 seconds when pierced, how far can a deer go in 13.5 seconds? A long ways ! Too many people on this site try to pick through things that aren't there.

I said the 2 guys that I have witnessed using them the last 2 years had bad experiences with them. One of these guys is an X-marine sniper and I dont question his shooting. He shoots 400+ on kill permits on our farm. The 2 does he shot last year were right where I would have shot with any of the bulets I hunt with. They didnt do the job ! This year a friend shoots a deer and doesn't get a blood trail or what we consider proper performance. Good Luck shooting them !

KLM

Target bullets are for targets
Hunting bullets are for hunting

Write this 100 times on the blackboard, erase and repeat until you get it.

NO problem with bullet failure with this one:
He went 20 yards with a broomsick size hole through both lungs.
There was a "bit o blood" on the ground (LOL)

MM,

Just curious, how many animals have you killed with VLDs that you are basing your opinion on?

John

John,

Just so your curiosity doesn't get the best of you, I've never killed a single animal of any type with a VLD, nor do I have any intention of doing so, but I have killed a fair number with Partitions, TSX's & AB's............as well as Hornady Interlocks & Interbonds, Nosler SB's & BT's, Win PP's, even a few with Speer Grand Slams & TBBC's.

I also understand a bit about bullet construction as well and also understand that the VLD's were, & still are, designed as target bullets.............then the marketers decided to sell the merits of the VLD profile to BG hunters.

Use them if you like, but I'll stick to bullets designed for hunting that may, coincidentally, have high BC's, not a high BC target bullet that's now being promoted as a "hunting" bullet in order to hype sales to "LR hunters".

Have a really nice day & I wish you good luck with the VLD's.....if that's what you choose to use, I sincerely hope they work for you.

MM

MM doesn't guess about bullets....

I'd suspect a lot of wildeyed VLD shooters are guessing....

Any bullet can have a bad day,but"knowing" what a BG bullet will "do"should not be a guessing game,since predictable bullet performance is the essence of what you look for in a hunting bullet.Ask an African pro about this.....And if I have to call Walt Berger to find out that a 155 gr "works",while a 168 gr "doesn't",then I write off the whole line of bullets,entirely.Similarly, I won't hunt with BT's because some are reputed to be "tough",while others are "bombs".Others can figure out which is which.Good luck...nobody pays me to experiment with bullets....I won't "guess"...And I can read;I don't like what I hear about VLD's at all.

I never had to call Nosler to find out how a 165 Partition performs, versus a 180; I know that both will do, predictably,what a BG bullet is supposed to do;Penetrate, and expand,reliably, every time. No guessing.

Regardless of the bullet, a high lung shot is asking for a weaker blood trail and a good death run. Better to be low than high, anytime....

Jpro: That seems to be true now that I think back on it....

Besides Bob, do you remember how hard it was for you to move to the newfangled Partition from the flint tipped spear you already knew all about?

mathman: Tough transition.... Actually I view the VLD as a solid step back! I might take the spear again myself

"Shot high in the lungs, no blood trail. He had to make circles in the woods to find the deer. Pencil sized exit with shrapnel in the neck, spine, and very little lung damage."

Well, I just feel compelled to make a few more comments. First, this is 6.5whitetail's quote, about the story from the guy who actually shot the deer. So we have a second-hand story about a supposed bullet failure.

It sounds to me like the shot was too high, the reason for the "shrapnel in the neck, spine and very little lung damage." Evidently, though, the deer still died, and in about the distance deer often die when shot solidly through the lungs with various other bullets.

A second comment: No, the people at Berger did NOT suddenly decide to start promoting the VLD as a hunting bullet, with no other reason than to sell bullets.

Instead, a LOT of hunters starting reporting to Berger that their bullets worked very well, especially on deer. Berger decided to inventigate, and after more than a year of research decided they would start marketing VLD's as hunting bullets. The research included both shooting VLD's into various kinds of test media, AND shooting lots of animals. I know about this because I was one of the people who shot a lot of animals, and also observed a lot of animals being shot.

As a result, I regularly use VLD's for some hunting myself now. This fall I used one on a pronghorn hunt that cost $2000. I paid for the hunt, and chose to use a VLD rather than one of the many other bullets in my loading room. It worked perfectly, by the way, because I shot the buck through the middle of the lungs, not around the edges.

There is indeed a difference between the hunting VLD's and the target VLD's. The target VLD's are actually tougher, because it was found that the thin jackets of what used to be the only VLD's made sometimes wouldn't hold up when shot in some cut-rifled barrels, such as the ones used by many target shooters. So today's target VLD actually have a tougher jacket. Once in a while somebody makes the mistake of shooting a deer with one, and the bullet doesn't open up. This does not happen with the hunting VLD's. Or at least I have never seen it happen, or heard from anybody who's seen it happen.

I would question Walt's advise about using a 155 instead of a 168 for deer, since I have seen a pile of deer-sized animals shot with 168-grain VLD's (and even 185's) from a .30-06, at ranges from 20 yards to around 400, and they all expanded.

Apparently a number of people still don't understand the way VLD's work, which isn't surprising since most of the people who've posted against them here have never even seen them used on game.

A VLD typically penetrates about 2 inches before it even starts to expand. Contrary to what many believe, this is unique among expanding bullets (at least those that do expand). The others all begin expanding as soon as the tip enters an animal, the reason there's normally lots of damage around the entrance wound. After a VLD gets a couple inches inside, it expands violently, doing massive damage to the lungs--of you shoot the animal in the lungs.

I have seen VLD's shot into a bunch of animals now, ranging in size from 50-400 pounds at ranges from 20 to 550 yards, and have yet to see one fail to make a mess of the lung cavity--unless the lung cavity was missed. One thing VLD's do NOT do is make up for poor shot placement.

After re-reading this thread more than once, I am pretty well convinced that the bullet "failure" was a shot that hit the upper fringe of the lungs, partly from the description of the wound and partly because the deer took 70 yards to die. I have yet to see an animal of any sort well-shot with a VLD go that far, though anything is possible.

MM,

I appreciate you satisfying my curiosity. I haven't killed a whole bunch of stuff with VLDs either. Only two feral hogs, a bobcat, and one whitetail. They all died pretty darn quick. The farthest, the whitetail, was 165 yards, so I haven't really had an opportunity to try them at what might be considered long range. They seem fine when properly placed at shorter ranges though.

I don't use them exclusively. Too much interest in seeing how different stuff works. Currently using the 80gr TTSX from my .257 Wby. It has worked well so far, too. Hornady interlocks have never failed me. Some of the very early 95gr Ballistic tips didn't behave as well as I thought they should for me, but I still killed the whitetail I shot with them. I did lose a pig I shot with a 75gr X once. He went down hard and while I was attending to others in the herd, he took off.

I don't think I would personally try VLDs on anythng other than favorable shots here I could put one in the heart lung region. I suspect too fragile for hard quartering shots etc., but I don't usually take those anyway. (Pigs would be the exception. I don't really care where I hit them. ).

Anyway, give them a try some time. A baseball bat was designed to hit baseballs, but it's probably as effective a club as there ever was...

John

Mule Deer,

Excellent response to the VLD. I have shot plenty of WT's with a 7STW and 300WM with TTSX's and Accubonds and understand some hits in the vitals don't always drop game and they may struggle a hundred yards +/-. My deer kills with the VLD are limited but from what I have experienced I am a true believer. I also get a box of 100 for less than a box of 50 TTSX.

I still may have the email Walt sent me along with load information were he recommended the 155's for the reason I stated. The 155's didn't fly well for me but the 168's are shooting under an inch at 200 yards. I see plenty of people on the web doing well with the 180 and 190's and up on WT's so I felt the 168's would not be a problem.

VLD's work.

Use a Hornady Interlock Accubond Partition and you will be fine. That's all I do. Simple!

6.5whitetail

This post hast to be the dorkiest I've ever seen here, plain stupid.



I'M RUNNING TO THE INTERNET TO TELL OF A FAILURE!
I don't have all the details yet but that will come later!

Dumb.

Maybe I missed it but i have seen no mention that they were
the "hunting VLD's".

I doubt they were.

John,

Thanks for posting & clarifying the issue on VLD's..............I stand somewhat corrected on how the hunting version came about.

But, much as I respect & appreciate your vast experience with a broader range of projectiles than what I have, I just ain't going to use them.

I see no real advantage (& more potential disadvantages), except in a few instances of BC, compared to what I'll term "genuine" BG bullets which provide all the performance one could ask for.

With the wide range of really good BG bullets available now, one can more or less choose/tailor the bullet selected to the type of performance desired..........but in truth, out to the ranges I've killed BG which is about 500 yards, I've never found the ancient & reliable Partition wanting either in BC/bullet trajectory or performance, and more recently, the same has been proven true with the TSX/TTSX.

Many times "new" is different but that doesn't necessarily mean it's better.

I guess old habits die hard & old dogs are hard headed.

MM

I guess the thing that surprises me a bit is that someone considers a bullet a failure because the deer ran 70 yds before it died. I shot a deer with a 180gr Partition out of a 300 WSM straight through the heart from 17yds away and it ran about that far.

Monday I shot another relatively small buck with a 140gr Accubond out of a 270 WSM that had an entrance wound halfway up directly behind the front shoulder. I saw the bullet impact through the scope and I could see a shaft of blood a yard long spewing from the entrance wound, he was obviously hard hit. The deer spun around sprung about 10ft in the air over a fence, sprinted up a and over a hill 80yds or so behind him. There was an enormous blood trail but the deer ran all the way over a second hill before running into a tree and dying.

I guess the point is I've never been able to impress Bucks much that they were dead on the spot unless I hit them in the spine or something. Even when hit through the lungs and heart with premium bullets they usually run a ways when I shoot them. How can anyone tell about bullet failure because they ran 70 or 100yds?...........................DJ

They can't and that's why this post is stupid.



btw,

I like this,

"Recession is when your neighbor loses his job.
Depression is when you lose yours.
And Recovery will be when Obama loses his."

MontanaMan,

Well, you're absolutely right about Partitions, of course. That has been my experience with them as well. And we do have a marvelous selection of bullets today.

The big thing I like about VLD's is that on average they kill quicker than any other deer bullet I've ever used, particularly with a behind-the-shoulder lung shot. They also destroy less meat, and I am one who does eat shoulder meat (yes, shoulders are good for far more cuts than just burger or jerky).

This may seem odd, given how violently they expand, but as mentioned above they don't expand right away. Thus there isn't the severe meat-mangling right around the entrance hole created with many other deer bullets. And if you're careful about where they might exit then there isn't much damage on the far side either. And even when there is, it's usually a LOT less than the damage around the entrance hole made by standard bullets, because by the time a VLD gets to the other side there isn't much left of the bullet, and it's going a lot slower.

This is why I particularly like them for pronghorn hunting. There isn't all that much meat on an antelope, and since my wife and I both like to eat them a LOT, I try very hard not to shoot up any shoulder meat. The buck I took in Wyoming lost nothing but rib meat, and went down pronto.

The high BC isn't as big a factor with me, except in one way: Wind drift is reduced, so even on a 300-yard shot there's noticeably less drift than with most other bullets. Since I do about half my hunting in Montana this often makes a difference. But it ranks far behind the way they kill quickly while damaging little meat, at least for me.

But I certainly am not pushing them in any way. I do, however, like to dispel some of the myths I've seen posted about VLD's.

Good hunting,
John

Not having used them, I would say that in most of my encounters with guys crying bullet failure,the fault has been poor placeemnt rather than the bullet, or asking the bullet to do soemething it was not designed for.

Selecting a bullet for it's ability to leave blood trail is way down on my list of what to look for.

Ok, to end all !

The guy who shot this buck said "the bullet doesnt [bleep] work well enough for him" ! Thats his opinion on the bullet. I have seen another instance where I wasn't impressed. I will not use the VLD for anything....period ! SU35 you can kiss my A$$....period. I have told a story of one friend shooting and not liking them and another I personally saw.....It's my opinion they suck. You can have your own opinion, but you werent there.


KLM

You're funny! I hope you have a great weekend.


How old are you btw?

JB,

Have you seen the VLD penitrate heavy bone such as the shoulder bone of an elk? This is my concern with the bullets. They seem to work fine when the shot is placed behind the shoulder with nothing to break or penitrate except maybe a rib, but how do they work when going through heavy bone and lots of meat?

I think they have a good concept but I am still sceptical because so far nobody with real world experience has been able to answer this question for me. I have called berger and they give the standard answer of bla bla bla 1800fps.

VLDs have worked well for me this year. My experiece of 9 mulies mirrored JB's article = thor's thingy.

heavywalker,

I haven't shot one into an elk shoulder so don't know, but did shoot the shoulder bones on deer-sized game with 168 and 185 VLD's and they just punched on through.

Quite a few people use VLD's on elk, especially in open country, but I prefer to stick to deer-sized game.

I'm 40 and have killed and have seen plenty of game killed. I realize that most of the posters on here that use VLD are going to come to it's rescue. I shoot BIG GAME bullets not target bullets. I can get the 2 gentleman who had problems come on and give their bad experiences the past 2 years NP.

I dont have to worry about speed,distance,bullet weight for game hunted, and precise bullet placement. I shoot them in the kill area and I get a blood trail and quick recovery. I said before, I never have lost one, even on a marginal shot because I always had a blood trail.

I had one Corelokt failure in 1986. Shot a doe on a drive 3 times with 150 gr. Corelokts from a 30-06. All complete pass throughs not doing much damage @ all, but the blood trail could have been followed by Ray Charles. 2 of the 3 shots were lethal kill shots. We found her after a 10 minute wait. she went about 200 yds, but left plenty of sign to follow.

I dont shoot Corelokts anymore for hunting, but wouldnt be afraid to if I had to. I just prefer to load with Nosler, Swift, Barnes and Hornady. Like I said do what you want, I know of 2 people + myself that wont use them on game.

Have a nice day and watch those VLD's cu35,
KLM

400+ post and you didn't realize you would encounter flak denegrading a bullet from a hearsay account? You would get the same response regardless of it were Barnes, Nosler or Sierra.

I'd be interested in the story first hand. Pics would be nice too. By chance is it the same hunter, sniper trained friend you posted last year about VLD failure? After shooting deer with the WM/VLD combo your 12/08 post doesn't ring true. That makes me doubt your latest story.

From 6.5Whitetail 12/08

"I have a friend who shot @ 2 does crossing our property last month from about 300 yds. The shots for the most part were on the shoulder or just behind, but the deer never acted like they were hit.He had to drive up to one of them and shoot it with a .22 pistol in the head.

Hunter-- Experienced shooter
Military sniper trained
Shots-- 4 of the 5 hit where they should have.
Weapon-- 300 Win. Mag 28" Encore Prohunter
Bullets--175gr. VLD Berger
Deer-- 1-90lb doe 1- 120lb doe

Complete bullet failure, only one exited and the rest seem to turn into shrapnel and do very little damage.

I told him the Accubond, Ballistic Tip, or the TSX Barnes wouldnt have let him do"

wadevb1,

This was a totally different guy. Avid reloader, ballistic freak, talks and shares a lot of info with Tony Boyers if anyone knows who he is. Try benchrest forums.

KLM

I put a 210 VLD behind the shoulder or an elk with a 300 WM and you just would believe what happened.

On that recommendation, that might be a good place for me to give 'em a whirl.

What caliber & weight have you used for pronghorns?

For me, most likely choice for guns I have would be a 140, .277", 140, .284" or 115, .25".

MM

Exactly, the only way it could have not destroyed the lungs is to have missed hitting the lungs

No problem at all with elk shoulders.

care to elaborate? i.e. caliber, bullet wieght, shot distance, estimated impact velocity, ect....

7mm08, 140 VLD, 42 gr Rel-15

First elk- 200 yards, one in heart, two in shoulders, all made it inside.

Second elk- 100 yards, same as above.

Cow elk shoulder doesnt stop them at all. The inside destruction is impressive. None made it out the other side but all resulted in dead critters with no tracking. What more can you ask for?

Oh... as JB mentioned, I was able to save a bunch of shoulder meat as it wasnt destroyed like those you would see shot with the accubomb.

MontanaMan,

Any of those 3 would work fine.

Both elk took 3 bullets to bring them down?

All of these "Bullet Failure" threads have one thing in common an that is that all of he "failed bullets" were recovered from dead animals. I always thought that the object of a bullet fired at an animal was to kill it, so how did it fail? I guess it failed to look like the bullet in the adds

Actually, some recovered bullets do look like the ads............the old fashioned Partitions, for example.

Haven't recovered many of them, but the recovered ones pretty much all look the same.

Some examples.............

MM

Sounds fabulous! What happened?

i've seen elk killed with everythig from 52 grain hollowpoints to WW1 surplus FMJ '06 ammo, and i do not call a dead elk an automatic bullet success. i want to be able to anchor the elk on the spot if i have to, and that shortens the list a bunch. if an elk makes it over a property line or into a river, over a cliff, ect... it can really complicate recovery.

Shot placement is the key to the "dropped in thier tracks" kill.

How can an animal brought to harvesst be a failure?

Was the animal any deader? Than the one this bullet was recovered from?




Not a classic mushroom, but it was recovered from a dad animal

both shot placement and bullet performance are required for an anchor on the spot. your options are a CNS shot or breaking big bones the animal needs to move from that spot.

if the animal suffers needlessly or if it makes it to an area that makes recovery much more difficult, bullet and/or shooter failed.

i am not making a statement for or against the VLD, just bullets in general.

I shot a mature Whitetail 8 pt at 50 yards quartering away fom me with a 6.5-284. I placed the shot behind his right shoulder and the bullet picked him up and dropped him on the entry hole. He never so much as kicked or twitched or flicked an ear. I guess that was a bullet failure. There was zero ,I repeat zero blood. The whole interior of the chest was mush and I didn't have to do any tracking. I got cheated ,I guess. I found the same type performance in my 6.5-06 and 6.5x55's on many occasions. I'm convinced after hunting 60 years that its all in the placement of the bullet,and the will to live by an animal, cause some Bucks tote more lead than others do.:):)The 140 VLD is awesome.

JB, maybe you posted the info already, but what cartridge did you shoot the pronghorn/deer with wile using the VLD's? Cause your description of minimal meat damage isnt what I've had while using them. of course I was shooting a 30-378 and 300 WBY, with 190 VLD's...graphic!

I have a good load for my 7mm WBY and 168 VLD I hope tho give some field time to next year, hoping for results like yours.

I wont jump on any band wagon as far as the "bullet failure" crowd, cuz my favorite bullets, the Barnes MRX and TTSX are consistently bashed, and I've seen nothing but wonderful performance out of them.

You are spot on

rosco1,

I was shooting a 6.5-06 with a 26" barrel, muzzle velocity 2950 or so with the 140 VLD.

Yeah, I would expect some meat damage to a deer with the cartridges you are using and a 190 VLD. We much prefer the 115 .25 in any cartridge from the .257 Roberts up, and the 140 6.5 or .270. With careful shot placement meat damage is minimal, and they still kill really well.

In fact in New Zealand I saw a 400-pound red stag killed VERY quickly with a liver shot from the 115 at about 200 yards, cartridge the .257 Roberts. When I saw the bullet hit a little too far back I though uh-oh, and was about to put a shot into the stag with my .30-06. But the stag only staggered about 15 feet and keeled over dead. The liver was mush, as well as the rear of both lungs.

MontanaMan,

Yeah, we have quite a few recovered Partitions in our collection, ranging from 100-grain .25's to 400-grain .416's.

I am alays amazed at the people who complain that Partitions don't retain enough weight. The least percentage of weight retention from any of our recovered bullets is 55%--and that's a 150-grain .270 Winchester that killed a bull moose faster than any other moose I've seen killed. It entered the rear of the rib cage on a quartering-away shot and was found in the far shoulder. The moose took a step-and-a-half and folded up dead! Another clear case of bullet failure, because no bullet that loses 45% of its weight can kill very well, at least according to some theorists.

At least 60% weight retention of recovered bullets or Exit wounds!

Three mule deer in the past two years, two bucks and a doe. All one-shot drops. Spined the first buck, so I had to send a second into his chest to kill him. All with the 115 gr VLD from my .25-06 Rem 700. Ranges from 175 - 400 yards. Wound descriptions pretty much as described by Mule Deer/John Barsness. Small entry, violent expansion in the chest cavity, and not much of an exit. Recovered bullet doesn't amount to much, but the deer dropping in place are nice, particularly in steep country.


My teenage son with my small buck this season, 175 yards through the shoulder blade:


400 yard shot on the doe - held on hair, hit low in chest, destroyed the heart and lungs.



Primarily a mule deer hunter & varmint/predator blaster, I decided to try the VLD's after reading good stuff about them from a couple of writers, including JB. Also a couple of my long-range shooting buddies had tried them on game and were happy with the performance. The 115 VLD offeres a nice high BC, and did good things for my .25-06 when loaded over Retumbo. At this point, I'm pretty pleased with the VLD's for deer hunting. Yes, they go right through the shoulder blade of a mulie.

Regards, Guy

Oh, and they expand well on game as small as a coyote too! There was a huge, gaping hole on the other side. This hide was NOT a keeper!

No, of course not...........dead is dead.

But.........when you see less than stellar performance from a given bullet on the ones recovered, I think it begins to put doubt into ones mind as to how really consistent that particular bullet will be over numerous cases of it's use.

The reason (you may have well missed it) that I put up the 2 examples that I did of the Partitions, is that in one case the shot(s) were close - 80 yards, & in the 2nd case, the shot was long - 480 yards, but in both cases, the bullet performance is virtually the same...........perfect.

And the good part about it is, I've never seen anything but similar performance from Partitions, tho I'm sure there are "failures" recorded by someone somewhere.

I do also agree with you that shot placement is of prime importance, regardless of the bullet used.

Good luck to you with whatever you chose to use.........I do like & use TSX/TTSX as well.

MM

Piece of mind. Works for me.

Yes and no, both had severe heart injuries on the first shot and just didnt know it yet. Neither moved more than a few steps.

This is a beautiful picture. What camera did you use to capture the moments?
Nice animal too...
Not trying to steal the thread....

Here is another VLD failure....

Camera Make: Canon
Camera Model: Canon PowerShot SD890 IS
Image Date: 2008:10:17 11:47:50
Flash Used: No (Auto)
Focal Length: 15.4mm
CCD Width: 4.59mm
Exposure Time: 0.0080 s (1/125)
Aperture: f/4.5
ISO equiv: 100
White Balance: Auto
Metering Mode: Matrix


That's what the EXIF data shows.

I guess I should ask how you like the camera? How is the battery life, does it get bumped on in hunting pack? Is it easy enough to use?

The use of target bullets for hunting debate will never end. Any website on the Net is filled with pros and cons and stories of wonderful performance and abject failure. It has actually supplanted the Barnes haters as the most popular subject for otherwise adult males to get into namecalling, threats and other gradeschool playground behavior.

Fact is the great Mr. Bell always used SOLIDS on his 7x57 to kill everything that walked in Africa. "never polluted my rifle with a softpoint."

The question I have posed several times, never to be answered, is "why?". Any hunter (not sniperwannabe) should be able to get within 300 yards of a big game animal. At that range a plain old 180 gr roundnose 30-06 softpoint will do the job...thus "Why?"

Brasshound - it's a nice little pocket camera. I keep it in a little padded case to keep it clean, and in bad weather it gets wrapped in a plastic bag to keep it dry.

Battery life is good. I've taken it backpacking for several days, no problem. It goes cross-country skiing, mountain biking, fishing and hunting with me. I think keeping it clean and dry and in the padded case (still pocket size) helps.

Thanks for the compliment on the deer photo - he fell down into a nasty ravine and I happened to look over and see that the light was on the leaves and looked pretty good. I'm pleased with the photo.

Regards, Guy

"The use of target bullets for hunting debate will never end."

However it was discovered that these particular target bullets are also mighty effective hunting bullets.

"The question I have posed several times, never to be answered, is "why?". Any hunter (not sniperwannabe) should be able to get within 300 yards of a big game animal. At that range a plain old 180 gr roundnose 30-06 softpoint will do the job...thus "Why?""

And "Why not?" is a pretty decent answer to your question sir! It's not like taking game at 400 is something new... If you choose not to, that's great. If someone else chooses to do so... Why not?

I've hunted with a bow, and with a muzzle loader, a handgun, shotgun and with a lever gun. I've taken game at short ranges, and way out there. I don't see something magical happening at 300 yards which makes 250 yards a fine shot and 350 yards something to be maligned.

Regards, Guy

Bravo! Best post I have seen in a long time!

Guess there is still some failure to comprehend how VLD's differ from other target bullets--and how they differ from any other expanding bullet made. They do NOT expand until they get inside the animal, which is different from any other expanding bullet ever designed. This was accidentally discovered, but happens nonetheless.

Apparently there is also the misconception that VLD's are only good for long-range shooting. This is far from the case. They perform in much the same any range from close up to far away.

I have only shot a handful of animals at over 300 yards with VLD's, and those were at less than 400. Unlike some other bullets, they do NOT "blow up" before getting into the clockwork.

In short, they offer the same degree of revolutionary performance as the Barnes X, except at the opposite end of the expanding-bullet spectrum. They get inside and really destroy the lungs and anything else inside the chest cavity. In the process they merely punch a knitting-needle-sized hole going in, damaging even LESS meat than a monolithic around the entrance hole.

This sort of performance has been fantasized about by some hunters since the beginning of expanding bullets.

The quote from WDMB has been over-used so much that it is a cliche. The fact is that when Bell started hunting big game expanding bullets were unreliable, the reason he chose solids. At the end of his life he was a big believer in masive tiisue destruction, and was shooting red stags with the .220 Swift.

If penetration were the only criteria for "killing power" on any sort of big game, then we'd still be using solids for pronghorns and whitetails. But we don't, because solids don't kill nearly as effectively as today's expanding bullets, whether the Barnes TSX or the Berger VLD.

I think many have already answered the "why" of the VLD, if someone cares to read how they have written their accounts.

Very quick kills, many DRTs, with little wasted meat, from an accurate bullet. It is not necessarily an all-around bullet, but has great returns on investment in specific scenarios.

JB. I researched them, read up on them including your excellent article about the New Zealand hunt. Not trying to be antagonistic, but personally speaking I do completely understand how they wortk I just not like how they work. I just like a stouter bullet. Just airing my opinion like I suspect others are doing.

6.5whitetail: I don't have time to read all the posts here right now - but I have to ask - what failed?
Said Deer ran past you's guy's and dropped off the bullet fragments before disappearing?
OR - did the "dead" Deer autopsy provide the evidence in question?
SOME of said Berger bullet DID exit the Deer through a "pencil sized hole" but apparently enough energy and shrapnel were imparted in and into the Deer to render it dead!
I have one suggestion for you's guy's IF you are un-happy with the Berger's - NOSLER!
I use the Nosler Ballistic Tips in my 260 Remington on Whitetail, Antelope and Mule Deer with wonderful results - PERIOD!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

300 grain 338 cal SMK at 165 yards the damage is massive

[/QUOTE]

SMK's now?

Oh Lord! Here we go!


..........And the're off............

A few more head of game taken with 300 SMK's

VarmintGuy,


He shot the deer upper lungs and didnt-- A. Get a blood trail and had to make circles to find the deer @ around 70 yds. B.He was surprised upon autopsy, there wasn't hardly any damage to the lungs he hit.


I had a similar story from last year where a different guy shot 2 deer running together and both took 2 shots to the lungs from a 300 WM with 175 gr. VLD's and acted as if they were never hit. One required a pistol follow up in the head. There again minimal lung damage, but plenty of shrapnel. ???? I just posted these 2 events and a few idiots chimed in to save the VLD. I have nothing against the VLD, but after witnessing some of the events I'm going to keep shooting Nosler, Barnes, Hornady, and Swift.


KLM

Here's an exit from a 168gr VLD from a 7RM. Doe antelope shot at about 150yds through both shoulders. No tracking or walking circles involved here.

This is pretty typical of the destruction I've seen from VLD's. I wish I had pictures to show of a couple of 75-100lb. hogs that I had shot with the same bullet a month or so before this antelope...extensive damage to put it mildly!

It's hard for me to comprehend a VLD creating a minimal exit wound and not doing some major damage in the boiler room. A bigger concern for me with the Bergers, is not being able to penetrate the shoulder of larger critters like elk.

Kevin

Good grief! I've been shooting some 168 VLD's at the range from my 7mm RM, but haven't shot any game with that combo yet...

Luckily for those of us who like to eat our game, deer & pronghorn have four quarters! Wow... Now that's expansion...

I guess I am just not focused for some of you guys? I have hunting loads of Sierra Pro Hunters, Game Kings, Match Kings (Oh My), Nosler Accubonds, Barnes TSX, Hornady SST's and Berger Hunting VLD's. I have just started shooting the Bergers in my 7STW and have killed hogs from 40 Yards out to 250 yards and a mule deer last weekend at 200 yards. One 255 pound boar shot at 40 yards had no blood trail but I had to track 0 feet. Bullet went into neck in front of shoulder and the inside was total devastation, all other hogs died right there except one that I hit in the hip, it died with one behind its ear just inside the brush line it was heading into. The mule deer was a walking away shot that entered in behind last rib and ended up tearing up 80 % of the heart and most of one lung 20 + inch of penetration. Deer still ran about 70 yards and piled up.

I guess if any of the Sierras or Nosler or Hornady's had not exited they would have been bullet failures as well even though I recovered each animal that I shot with them? Oh wait several of them did not exit, crap.

Don't know how old Iraklion is but those of us old enough can remember O'Connor's writings about 120 gr Barnes bullets at 3200 fps (made from lead and copper tubing)in the 270 being an absolute bomb on the little Coues deer he used to hunt,due to very rapid expansion in the chest cavity.I still remember illustrations in his books showing "good bullet performance" as the bullet mushrooming completely within the chest cavity and stopping against off-side hide for complete "energy release". When Fred Barnes went to more brittle bullet materials the 120's did not work so well,and O'Connor stopped using them.I suspect he started traveling widely and the old 270 now got used on everything from dorcas gazelle's to elk and gemsbuck,and grizzlies, and the tougher Nosler Partition got his stamp of approval.....

But there were also lots of complaints about bullets that only made it into the chest cavity and then came unglued,too;mostly as a result of increasing velocities,like when you shoved those lightly constructed bullets into elk bones at high velocity and things did not turn out so well.....

Those of us raised on a steady diet of guys like Page and Hagel,who advocated high velocity AND stouter bullet construction were "taught" that "good" bullets retained weight;that they mushroomed but still retained enough integrity to at least make the off-side of a game animal from tough angles,and did this under the somewhat contradictory conditions of long range/low velocity,or close range/high impact velocity.Weight retention was a holy grail,but not because weight retention in and of itself was the indicator of killing power,but simply because common sense told us a bullet that stayed in one piece had a better chance of penetrating effectively enough,and had the integrity to smash up bone on heavier animals. And bullets that did the same thing,every time,regardless of distance or shot angle,came to be valued.This gave us things like the Partition, BBC,Swift, TBBC,X,and Ultrabonded,etc......many of these bullets have very slightly different expansion characteristics, frontal areas,levels of retained weight and somewhat different penetrating abilities,but generally the theme is the same for all of them.

So, many of us were (are) not content,and a might uncomfortable, with the concept of a bullet that penetrates but a short distance(3") before it self destructs,even though it seems to work,and may drill bone before doing so.We (at least I) can't get my head around a bullet that goes in 3" before the jacket starts tearing apart and rupturing to shrapnel because I can't imagine that tiny pieces of guilding metal flying in random directions from the wound channel can be as deadly and destructive as the broad mushrooming of the bullet itself....(if this were so, why has the concept not been carried forward in heavy calibers for stuff like Cape Buffalo,and other larger heavy game?....think about it.....

.....and I have often thought that ,if you could get a BT,for example,to have that taffy-type,gummy construction that helps it maintain a broad frontal area after early expansion in a fragile deer,,it would be quite as deadly,and maybe even more so,than the brittle guilding metal/alloy cores that fly to pieces after high velocity impact.In other words, I have long felt that it's the rapid expansion to a broad frontal area,and not the tiny flying fragments, that do the bulk of the damage,and that give the BT its' deadly reputation as a killer of deer sized game,simply because a big chunk of bullet flying through vitals does more damage than tiny ones.Another example of this is the reputation that the light TSSX at very high velocity is getting for dramatic kills and extensive tissue disruption.I have seen the same thing over the years from BBC's at close range/high velocity where there is absolutely no fragmentation whatsoever;yet the kills have been as dramatic as anything a BT or VLD could produce on their best days.I think fragmentation is a "Red Herring",or Trojan Horse of bullet performance.

It is not hard to visualize how the VLD's work;but a question unanswered to me is what happens if that dramatic upset occurs 3" past the last rib of that bull elk taht you find and shoot in north slope timber at 50-60 yards,where the bullet may have to get through parts of a grass-filled paunch in order to reach vitals,and has already "blown its' cookies" in the paunch,and lacks the integrity to bust through a bit of paunch and diaphragm into vitals that must be deestroyed to get a quick kill;where impact velocity is at 3000 fps,even though that same bullet(same day) might handle that same shot angle at 2000 fps impact velocity across a canyon.I emphasize "might"......I have my doubts.

I (and others like Iraklion,and MM, I suspect),are more used to the consistent and uniform results of things like Partitions that pretty much do the same things at 350 yards that they do at 35 yards in the timber,and if the BC's of such bullets are insufficient to allow for shots beyond 500 yards so be it;I will gladly leave that part of the performance equation on the table because (a)I don't need an elk that badly,and (b)I don't belong to the "if I can see it,I can hit it" faction. I know from my own experience that a Nosler Partition at 450-500 yards does not make a good day for a bull elk;and if I run into him at 60 yards in the timber,I have a bullet that will handle that situation as well.YMMV.

I wish the VLD's boys all the best,but they aren't for me!

"It is not hard to visualize how the VLD's work;but a question unanswered to me is what happens if that dramatic upset occurs 3" past the last rib of that bull elk taht you find and shoot in north slope timber at 50-60 yards,where the bullet may have to get through parts of a grass-filled paunch in order to reach vitals,and has already "blown its' cookies" in the paunch,and lacks the integrity to bust through a bit of paunch and diaphragm into vitals that must be deestroyed to get a quick kill;where impact velocity is at 3000 fps,even though that same bullet(same day) might handle that same shot angle at 2000 fps impact velocity across a canyon.I emphasize "might"......I have my doubts."

Yup. I like these VLD's for my purposes, which is hunting open-country mule deer, along with coyotes.

First started using Nosler Partitions back in the 1970's, and still believe strongly in them. For elk, when a timber shot or a "raking" shot might be necessary, I'd rather have a good heavy partition, like the 7mm 175 Nosler Partition or the 180 or 200 gr .30 cal Partition. I've also used the Barnes TSX, with excellent results.

Not wedded to the VLD, but I do see the bullet as quite useful for hunting open-country deer-sized game.

Regards, Guy

Guy: Looks like they certainly kill deer!

back to the original post, high lung shot, pencil sized exit with shrapnel in the neck, spine, and very little lung damage. Sounds to me like the deer was at quite and angle for the bullet to hit high lung/shoulder and angle into the neck..... sounds like poor placement more than poor bullet performance

Bob,

The "shrapnel principle" (if we can call it that) has been proven on deer-sized game over and over again.

In fact, over the past few years RWS did a BUNCH of shooting of deer-sized game with various bullet designs in order to find one that would indeed put deer down quicker with typical heart-lung shots, because so much German and other European hunting is done on relatively small pieces of property. If a lung-shot deer gets across the property line to the neighbor's place, then it's the nieghbor's deer--and since the meat is commercially old over there this isn't a good thing. Neither is shooting up too much meat, the reason they prefer shooting deer behind the shoulder.

This is why RWS has bullets that are specifically designed for the front end to fragment, because they found that such bullets did kill deer quicker, especially with normal lung shots. Being German, they also design the front end of the bullet to PRECISELY fragment, as opposed to the more random fragmentation of many American deer bullets.

The vast mass of evidence put together by forensic scientists who study wound channels also strongly suggests that the volume of the wound channel is the biggest predictor of how quickly a bullet kills. Bullets that don't lose any weight (don't produce any shrapnel) create narrower wound channels.

This is exactly why the Nosler Partition was designed to lose the front third in "shrapnel." John Nosler was a very experienced hunter, and knew from shooting a lot of deer that bullets that fragmented at least partially usually killed deer quicker. But he also wanted a bullet that wouldn't come apart totally, and would go through a moose shoulder. Which is why the Partition's front end is made of some of the softest lead alloy used in the bullet-making business, and rear end of a much harder alloy.

It's also why when I hear somebody bitching about the front core of a Partition disappearing I know they don't understand how bullets work, especially Partitions.

I don't anybody on the Campfire (or anywhere else) has suggested using Berger VLD's on black-timber elk. I know I haven't, and in fact would advise strongly against it. They don't penetrate deeply enough. I am not even crazy bout using them on open-country elk, though I have used them (and seen them used) on open-country red stag that weighed around 400 pounds, and with great success.

From what I've seen, Berger VLD's are marvelous bullets for average "deer-sized" game. They punch through deer-sized bone and destroy the insides of the chest cavity. The ONLY times they haven't destroyed the inside of the chest is when they were placed around the edges, but even then if they do get into the chest cavity at all they destroy much more tissue than a "harder" bullet placed similarly.

Somehow, a lot of Americans have been sold the notion that there is indeed one perfect bullet design for shooting ALL big game, whether a 100-pound pronghorn or a 1500-pound moose. I simply don't believe that anymore, though probably the Nosler Partition comes as close to a reasonable compromise as anything.

For shooting deer-sized game one of the most popular bullets is the Hornady Interlock. It kills very well, but not just because it holds together better than some other cup-and-core bullets, but because it loses about half it's weight in "shrapnel". Or at least that is the average for the Interlocks I've recovered from various game animals.

The latest versions of the Ballistic Tip perform similarly, with the exception of some that have even more jacket because some people want to use them on heavier. This is exactly why so man people like the Ballistic Tip on deer. One of my friends owns a lot of land in South Carolina, and they cull a lot of deer off the place every year. After much experimenation, his favorite bullet is a Ballistic Tip at 3000+ fps. Why? "Because when we shoot a deer across a bean-field, when we go look for the deer there it is, right where we shot it."

I think it is true that the Barnes TSX is at its best when driven really fast, whether through the use of a lighter weight bullet or in a really fast cartridge. Eleen and I have taken a bunch of animals with the 100 TSX from the .257 Weatherby at 3500 fps, and often it kills quite spectacularly, even on animals shot behind the shoulder. That is, as long as it opens up, and sometimes one won't open. This appears to be far more common in really small diameter bullets, probably because the hollow-point is so small.

At any rate, however, I have not seen any advantage in shooting deer-sized animals with the TSX when the bullet is started at more normal velocities of under 3000 fps. In fact I would say it doesn't kill as quickly even on animals in the 500-pound class at sub-3000 muzzle velocities, one reason I prefer using bonded bullets of one sort or another, or the old Partition, when hunting game of that size. The TSX really shines on BIG animals, in the 1000-pound range, whether using 168's at high velocity from a .300 magnum or fatter bullets at slower velocities.

But I have seen it in use enough to not buy the notion that the TSX (or any other monolithic expander)is the be-all and end-all of bullets designs for all big game or all sizes. In fact, I do believe that many gun writers have sold us a bill of goods on the theme of deep-penetrating bullets that retain all or most of their weight. This is how "shrapnel" came to be a negative, when in truth for some big game shooting it's a very effective byproduct of bullet performance.

Somehow we've been convinced that an exit hole and little or no shrapnel is the secret to killing power, when that's not true at all. That is why RWS makes about 4-5 different kinds of bullets, and why other companies like Hornady and Nosler do as well.

Certainly when we're hunting a variety of game it's smart to use a bullet that will do the job on the biggest one, especially if we're hunting in thicker stuff where the angle of impact might have to go through a lot of animal. But in much hunting--especially in Norh America--we're looking for one animal. And since different bullets work differently, there are better designs for certain tasks. We don't expect one kind of shot to work for all kinds of bird hunting, or a sports car to do the same jobs as a 3/4 ton pickup. Yet somehow some hunters believe that one bullet will do it all better than any other bullet ever designed, and that is simply not true.

This doesn't look like minimal meat loss to me

Which is why I try to put 'em BEHIND the shoulder!

I do not think the 168 grains really had anywhere else to go.

But it is dead....

Point well taken!

This shot was taken off hand at a moving critter, so the shoulder looked like a nice target! Granted, the exit was a little more substantial than I expected, but it definately qualified as "DRT" by most anyones definition!

Kevin

Exactly, but in open country where bullet can be precisely placed they are extremely lethal

You don't always get to pick where the deer or elk are gonna be so why not take something that will do the job near or far? Especially if you're on a DIY and have traveled to hunt. I killed 12 elk in 15 trips to the Big Horns and never shot an elk over 300 yards.
True, I never shot one that looked like those you see on the cover of the magazines but they looked good to me. I did shoot some dandy mulies though.
I'm not buying into the "bullet failure" post. I'm just posting on bullet selection in general. There are too many good hunting bullets out there to be field testing somebody's bullets for them or using a one diminsional bullet. These are living animals we're after.

Pretty open country IMHO

Partitions have been known to work in open country too.

460 yards, 270 Win, 150 gr. Partition.

2 steps & DRT, blew out lungs & exited with a 1 1/2" hole.

MM

So do TSX's


Took the Doe at 777 yards with 180 grain TSX

I don't believe the VLD has been labeled a bullet for distance game taking. They have been working well at all ranges. My last WT over 200 pounds on the hoof was taken under 100 yards with the 168 grain VLD chrono'd at 3180. Bang/Flop.

I never had a single problem with a TTSX but the VLD's are much cheaper to shoot.

Wow 40mm High explosive grenade launcher!

Well, that's a helluva shot, alright & longer than anything I've made, but why bother with a doe at that range?

Couldn't find a doe closer or just to be able to say you did it?

MM

MontanaMan - that's one heck of a mulie you've posted! Congrats on that big boy!

I was just goin' there as well!

Nice buck MM.....very nice.....

Guy & magnumb,

Thanks.........that's a SE Idaho deer.

MM

I happily load and hunt .30 cal 190 grain VLD's in the 300 WSM for elk.
I hunt the top of moutain clear cuts where shots are long
and think they are the perfect bullet tool for the job.

Until they prove me otherwise.

MontanaMan,

Beautiful buck!

I have also had some great results with Nosler Partitions at long range, including one of my biggest pronghorns taken at 430 yards with one 100-grain NP from a .257 Roberts. That buck stood spraddle-legged for a little bit after the hit, then wobbled 15 feet and went down.

Nosler Partitions are great bullets, and if I had to be limited to one expanding bullet for the rest of my life that would be my choice.

But there are other bullets out there that work quite well.

ditto!

Thanks, John.

Yeah, there's really a lot of good bullets around now........

I really like the AB for a high BC bullet & the Hornady IB has worked well when I've used it as have the TTSX & TSX........haven't had much success accuracy wise with the Scirroco, but will try other calibers/rifle with it.

I've also had good performance from the TBBC (older version), too Never used the Swift A-Frame myself, but never heard a bad thing about it either.

Hard to go wrong with any of the top tier bullets if used in an adequate caliber & the shot is decently placed.

"Failures" do happen with them all I suppose, but I've been lucky in that regard.

Good hunting to you & the wife.

MM

MM: Great mule deer!

Indeed.........

1 of 2 things.
Ego or lack of stalking/hunting skills. No other reason.

Do you have your degree?

degrees? I have 2.

Another K-Mart shopper showing their ignorance here at the fire. People with small and limited experience judging others who have been there and done it twice and more.

As opposed to your hyperbolic intelligence, with which you can explain why someone would shoot at large game at the next zip code huh?
Ego and the need to prove their manhood.

As for experience. Believe me I have plenty.

Who has the big ego here?

It matches your big mouth.

Notice how these K-Mart shoppers that show up here to judge others when in fact they are judging themselves.




Because they can. They can do it better than you can within the zip code. Your ego just can't stand it.

"Beacause they can!" huh?

Wow! your argument is so compelling! Are you a lawyer? You are so articulate with words!

There are a lot of things we can but do not do because of many reasons. Such as having a consious or because it is not correct. Apparently you know nothing about that.

BTW, Just wondering....
Are you one of those heroes that stand over the elk you just killed with the big poster that reads "1234 yards!" and have your picture taken by your fans? You sound like one.

So what big city from back east are you from?

Does this mean we're not gonna find out the reason?

Rocky Mountains!

SU:Hey...watch that stuff!We ain't all ignorant back here!

LOL! don't worry Bob, I know!

This dude has trash talk from Boston or NYC.
He's NOT from the Rockies and we all know it.

You're a psychic now?

Man you are funny!

You don't get to pick where they are going to be but you are in complete charge of when the bullet leaves the gun. What is the big problem with waiting for a broadside shot? Get this and you have a very dead animal if you put it where it is supposed to go. I would have no problem with hunting elk with these bullets after this year, including bull elk. I would not try to run a bullet up an elks gut like you can do with a Partition or TSX. This would result in a disaster but I have the time to wait for a broadside shot.

That may be true. If I'm hunting up behind the house and a deer doesn't offer me a precise shot, I can come back to the house and go again tomorrow or the next day. However, if I've traveled a considerable distance and am on a limited budget of time, I may not enjoy that option. My opportunitys to shoot an elk may be limited and fleeting. Especially on a DIY hunt where I do not have the advantage of a local professional or the time to pre-scout the animals. I have to rely on topo maps, wild guesses, and chicken guts to figure out a game plan. The weapon I shoot will be adequete for the animal I intend to shoot with a heavy for calibre bullet with a proven track record.
As I said, if someone wants me to start field testing their bullets, they can start sending me checks or paying for some of my trips.

Doesn't matter if you travel 5 miles or 1500 miles. If the shot isn't there,going to a super duper magnum with magic bullets should not be the deciding factor to take a shot or not just because you traveled a greater distance.

A big +1 to Saddlesore. Guys have been killing elk for a long time with "cheaper" bullets. Guess they waited for a good shot, even if they drove 1500 miles. Put a Berger into the middle of the chest on a broadside elk and you will have a dead elk.

Your SPOT on with this Guy. This is my first year using the Berger VLD of any kind. I loaded some(155grn) up for my 300wsm with 65.6grns of W760 that shot .500-.670 RESPECTFULLY, so I decided to try them on the powerline that's about 442yrds long.

I had 6 doe came out on me this morning on a cull hunt the first I shot was @ 182yrd she ran 30yrds and piled up the second was 193yrds, she was bang flop, and the last ran up the hill @ 222 yrds and she ran 35yrds and piled up as well.

I was VERY eager to see how the bullet performed to my amazement they all had pass throughs, as per the "knitting-needle-sized hole going in" this is very much so what happen. When the deer were field dreased this told the tail of the typical Berger performance after entering the game which is devasting simply all or most of the vitals in the animals chest cavity...............to say the least I'm sold and WILL be using them in the 257 Roy possibly this weekend or in the Oklahoma panhandle to thin out some Antelope at a buddies ranch!!!!

That is one of my points. There ain't no magic bullets. There are bullets called NPs and Grand Slams that will take a raking shot on an elk without a doubt. And when you hunt elk in the dark timber, waiting for a elk to pose for a Christmas card shot more than likely means an elk that disappears. And it may be the only one you see before you have to take your super duper magnum and go home.
Perhaps your bullets will work but I'm not gonna drive 1500 miles to find out. Maybe a .257 is lightning in a bottle but I ain't gonna drive 1500 miles to find out.

Don't know about elk disappearing,but I shot two elk this year with those Christmas card shots, and have done so for about twenty years,every year except two.I hunt OTC areas and not private land in some of the most crwoded units in the state

Yeah, I keep hearing that it's almost impossible to get anything but a running shot on elk, but I have shot only two moving elk in my life. Both of those were only walking fast, and so close it didn't matter anyway. I just put the crosshairs where the bullet needed to go and pulled the trigger.

No you are th one that thinks he is psychic





IS this close enough for you?

Nice even rub on the buff............grin

Ol' JWP takes 'em up close or out far... Either way - at his choice. I just don't see a problem with that... Not at all.

Here is another Berger VLD failure because the bullet failed to exit. No wonder, it was a 115 Berger VLD out of an Encore 25/06 (a really crappy rifle) at around or a bit more than 200 yards.

At the tip of the old corn stock is the ONLY wound on the deer and it's a small one. For those needing orientation as to what part of the animal is in the photo; the wound is on the back of the left rear leg.

That is close enough for me. Keep on practicing and you won't have to shoot deer in the next county.
See, if you try you can get close and you won't need the expensive gadgets. Sell them and get some knee and elbow pads and start low crawling to the game. Great job man!

Who said anything about running shots on elk? Geez, I guess some folks got all the answers. Even if they don't match the questions. I'll just keep on using what works for me.
The closest I've had to a running shot was a cow elk that was running acrost a small meadow toward me. I didn't want to shoot her head on so I waved at her and when she stopped and milled about, I shot her when I had a better angle. I didn't have a super duper magnum with me that time. I was using a .280 with hand loaded 150gr Core Lokt bullets. About as pedestrian as you can get.

I think that I'll continue to practice and just shoot them were I find them and then hike over to them.. You hunt as your abilities allow, I have no problem with that

Now that is an lucid mature and intelligible post JWP. Bravo!
and I am not being facetious.

ok, i've just trudged through 9 pages b/c i'm extremely interested in this as i just decided to go with the hunting vld's on my 2 newest builds.......the 175's in a 308 and the 190's in a 300 WM.......that being said I had a buddy that swears by them come up and shoot does on a property i manage in middle GA.......he shot 3......1st at 200, 2nd at 490 and the 3rd at 190....deer 1 and 2 were DRT literally flopped over with high shoulder shots, 3rd deer his rifle slipped on his knee and he called a gut shot........we waited 4 hours and began tracking....my problem/concern is that there was not a single sign of blood/hair anything at point of impact, there was absolutely no blood trail at all........i'm a deer biologist and realize that this happens sometimes with gut shot deer, we recovered the deer after doing circles about 250 yds from poi.....bullet entered the guts behind 4th rib and lodged in the left hind quarter.........my big concern is lack of blood, i understand that well placed shots are dramatic with these bullets, however i'm concerned with the not so well placed shots.........anyone have any stories of following a blood trail with a VLD? surely someone has wounded or had to track one shot with these........

i'm not for or against at the moment, i'd like to be for considering i'm loading them with intent to kill, however i do have some concern but the only negative i can find is the tiny exit.......years ago i had the same issue with partitions, they were not expanding and leaving a 30 hole in and a 32 cal hole out.....won't bore any more with other bullet +and- but would like to know if anyone has had blood trails with the VLD's

Amen

Interesting read.
I don't see a whole lot of difference between a hunting VLD bullet and a 1980s version ballistic tip.Bullet goes in,comes unglued, and the animal dies.Never shot anything with a VLD.Shot loads of animals with BTs.Sounds to me like the terminal performance is pretty much the same.
I never had any real problems with BTs.I've used them alot in the past and would not have a problem usuing them in the future. But I will say that for the last 6 or 7 years now i've converted over to monos and Im not talking X bullets.All in all the deer I've shot have piled up quicker than with the BTs.Just an observation on my part.
Only place I'd have a question on cup and core stuff is a Texas Heart Shot.Now I dont go around trying to make THSs.In fact,I try to avoid them.But poop does happen.And if it did happen,the cup and core from any maker,would give me a question.
"Well do you feel lucky,punk?"
Thats not a question I'd have with a mono.
dave

Gentlemen,

I must say that I have used the VLD with very good results. Last year used my 300 Ultra Mag 168gr. on my deer at 558 yards and dropped him on his tracks with a exit hole that you can put a fist through and blood all over the area. This year used my 7 mm Mag 168gr on my Elk at 200 yard and he too dropped with the same results. My buddies and I have started to shoot these bullets only.
Respectfully
Manny Sanchez

Toad: The OBVIOUS "failure" you post about (but apparently don't realize!) was striking a Deer in the shoulder!
NEVER aim at a Deer's shoulder - instead shoot said Deer through the heart/lungs and the meat will taste better and the Deer will bleed out.
Again NEVER aim a bullet at a Deers shoulder its wasteful and from time to time said Deer escape!
They NEVER escape (and the bullet NEVER fails!) when the bullet is placed in the proper place - through the heart/lungs!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I have blood trailed deer shot with VLDs and just about every other bullet. Many times the intestines will plug the exit hole on gut shots and you won't find much of a blood trail. That is not bad bullets performance, it is poor shot placement. No bullet will make up for poor shot placement nor will going to a more powerful round. Sounds like the bullet did as most would with that placement. You experienced hunter error not bad bullet performance.
Sounds like the Nosler partitions did just what they were designed to do. The front section is designed to expand inside the animal causing a large wound channel, many times pealing off of the more solid rear section which continues with penetration, many times exiting the animal.
There is not a bullet on the market that will make everyone happy with it's performance. If you read enough posts on various sites you will find hunters that swear at or for all the different bullets. Some hunters want an exit hole to help with finding the animal. Others want all the bullet energy expended in the animal, no exit.
Pay your money, take your choice.Rick.

dave,

The big difference between the early Ballistic Tips and VLD's is that VLD's penetrate at least 2" or so before expanding. They never expand right at the entrance hole, or at least I have never seen them do so. Thus two "problems" are solved: they don't expand before they penetrate, and there isn't a big wound right around the entrance hole. Instead it starts inside the animal.

ugadeer,

I simply must comment on your comment about Nosler Partitions. A lot of people assume they haven't expanded because he entrance and exit holes are so similar in size, but if they field-dress the same deer they'll find a lot of interior destruction. This means the bullet expanded.

Did you field-dress these deer? Or did you base your evaluation on whether they expanded by looking at the outside of the deer only?

JWP

Have you ever recovered one? Really curious.


Also if anyone did not e-mail, Berger and request their free (at least it used to be) video is really missing out. Not saying that it will make a believer out of you or a Berger fan but is informative.

BTW John enjoyed your article about New Zealand.

Penetration, retained weight, frontal area, fragmentation, and especially "energy", do not kill. Tissue disruption does. In order for tissue to be destroyed the projectile has to reach vital organs, ie. penetration. However, as long as the projectile penetrates enough to reach the vital organs, the more tissue damage that is done the "faster" the animal dies. Whether you want to believe it or not, when comparing two bullets that both reach the center of the lungs, the one that fragments into tiny pieces will destroy more vital tissue then one the expands but retains 100% of its weight.

Even a laymen could see after shooting enough animals that "fragile" bullets such as the Berger VLD and Hornady AMAX do more damage to tissue then bullets such as Nosler Partitions, and Barnes X's. Those nice picture perfect expanded bullets look good, but have little to nothing to do with rapid incapacitation.

One can read the terminal ballistics work of Dr. Martin Fackler, Dr. Gary Roberts, and the IWBA journals for more clarification.


The reason that you don't see the fragmenting bullets used for Cape Buffalo and other large heavy game, is because cartridges and projectiles used are not big enough in comparison to the game for that type of mechanism to work reliably. If one used a 750-800gr Berger (if there was one) out of a 50BMG or a 20mm round that acted the same, you would see very dramatic kills.

Wrong..........those characteristics allow bullets to kill just fine, assuming decent placement, albeit the animal may take a few steps before it succumbs. Mostly not a deal breaker except for those who have trouble reading sign.



Why don't just get a 20mm cannon & load it up with frangible bullets,& call 'em VLD II's?

Then you could hunt buffalo, elephant, hippo, brown bear & such & say you did it with VLD's. (And then give yourself a big whoopy-ding)

Or you could simply use Partitions, A-Frames, TSX, A-Square's, etc, in a 375, 416, 458 etc., & rock on. (With these, you'll just get dead critters & maybe a "Well done" from your PH.)

MM

No, penetration, retained weight, frontal area, fragmentation, and especially "energy", DO NOT kill. They are wounding mechanisms. Mechanisms that can destroy tissue. However tissue disruption is what causes damage to the animal.

I have found a jacket, once

You must be related to Bill Clintoon with that kind of ability to parse words...............

Would you like to be shot with a bullet that delivers those characteristics? Somehow, given decent shot placement, as I stated, I tend to think you'd pass on to the Happy Hunting Ground.

MM

Interesting...

In any case, most people believe that how far a bullet penetrates and how much weight it retains determines how well it kills. It doesn't. How much tissue is destroyed determines how well a certain projectile "kills". More tissue destroyed= faster death, all else being equal. Different projectiles have different characteristics that allow different latitudes in regard to use.

A 180gr 30cal TSX traveling at 3,000fps is a very deep penetrating bullet that will traverse the entire length of a deer nearly every time. It features excellent penetration, with an acceptable wound channel for almost all NA big game, however, it is not optimized for deer sized game if instantaneous death is desired. If viewed from the side it's wound channel looks like a long, though relatively narrow path. It's characteristics allow one to shoot a deer from any angle with the confidence that the bullet will reach vital organs. However, if a deer is gutshot and no other vital organs are hit, tracking and recovery will be tedious as it's wound profile (long and narrow) that helped us in one situation, will hurt us in this one.

On the opposite end of the spectrum a 178gr AMAX at 3,000fps is a violently expanding/fragmenting bullet. In comparison to the TSX it is nearly polar opposite in behavior. It features medium penetration, extreme fragmentation, and very large oval shaped wound channel. It's characteristics are optimized for deer sized game if instantaneous death is desired. On broadside chest shots it will almost always result in an immediate drop because its wound channel is so large that it disrupts the CNS even when it is not directly impacted. Similarly, a gut shot with an AMAX is a completely different event then with a TSX. Because of it's large wound channel, on deer sized game it will in a likelihood still damage the vitals, and even if it doesn't the exit hole is large ensuring a very good, short blood trail.

The trade off with any bullet involves how mush tissue is destroyed and the length of the wound channel.


Both types work, and both are effective but in different ways. The AMAX (or Berger VLD) is not the bullet I would choose for Elk size game if I wanted to be able to shoot in all situations, and the TSX is not the bullet I would choose for deer (caliber depending) if I wanted to be able to shoot in all situations.

Hmmmmmmmmm....I agree with most of what you said, but there aren't many things that you can fire from the shoulder that ensure a short blood trail with a gut shot, I don't care what bullet you use.

Can't argue with most of that treatise & agree with most of it.

Retained weight is certainly not an indicator of ability to kill as you point out & as many erroneously believe.

But on the other hand, I can't subscribe to the overly explosive A-max bullet group either except for relatively small sized animals..........too much room for error.

Guess that's why, for the most part, I've always been fond of Partitions but have also been using TSX's in light for caliber loadings with good results.

Was just raggin' on you a bit earlier.........not to be taken too seriously.

MM

I shot my first Berger deer this year with a 155gr VLD from a .308 with a chronographed velocity of 2800 fps. Distance was 40 yards. Shot entered behind the shoulder on right side and exited through the shoulder on left side. Little entrance hole and huge exit hole. Upon butchering I noticed the bullet fragmented on the off shoulder, it was an instant death. From this experience it appears to have done exactly what Berger says. I could really care less what the bullet looks like after a humane kill. The only reason I used a Berger this year was to try something different. My one shot kills with Sierra's were getting boring, thought I would try something different and the result was the same. I wouldn't hesitate to use Berger bullets again.

Whew!!!! I finally caught up with reading this whole thread. I get a kick out of the defensiveness of some of them. Kind of reminds of the opposite end of the bullet spectrum and the guys who bleed Barnes bullets. Heck just use whatever bullets tickle your fancy and be sure to put it in the right place. I've been using .224's on deer the past 4-5years so I've been leaning more toward the Premium bullets side of things. I did shoot a buck last year with the 243AI/105 Berger VLD just to see for myself. It worked just like it was supposed too and this year I ran a bonded bullet, the SSII, and it worked too. Next year it's back to the TTSX's for me.

Well I took my last buck with a 30-06 150BT this year about 70 yds maybe less. Classic jacket core seperation. My shot was high lung due to the buck's right front leg being rearward in his step. Entered the right side, nice broadside profile, taking out the top of the lungs and ricocheted off the spine and exited the body. Was that a bullet failure due to the jacket core seperation? Not in my book, shooter error with the good Lord taking up the slack for me. The big man above knew I wanted to eat some deer heart this year, and it was gooooooood!

Agreed.

In a case of this nature Formidilosus.
More velocity is your friend.
dave

No offense, but you would be wrong. I assure you that if you launch a 178gr AMAX at above 2,800fps or so into a deer sized mammal and hit anything other then just lungs, you will see the meaning of destruction. Similarly a 190 or 220gr SMK will leave massive exit wounds. There are tradeoffs though. In order to get wide latitude in messed up shots, you lose a lot of meat if you hit bone.

MontanaMan,

Indeed. I prefer AMAX's and SMK's when hunting deer, as some of my shots can be longish and the large exit wounds do allow more room for error. When I go bigger then deer, bullet selection changes.





Absolutely. However at some point that velocity is still going to drop and you will have a relatively narrow wound channel.

Formid, thanks for the advice but I've already seen animals gut shot with such pearls as Sierra's, Hornady's, Partitions,and even Bitterroots(which I have used),as I have screwed up a time or two in my career,and have been on the scene when others have "screwed up" as well.And I can assure you that nothing in the way of sporting bullets is going to make amends for an errant shot behind the diaphragm,as you will have a mess on your hands with any of them,and no bullet that I know of will make the inevitable and ensuing tracking job any easier,nor will the results be so predictably certain as you claim.....

As a side note,and before I knew any better, I did instantly kill a pronghorn with a hit fully back of the diapragm due to a full value wind,years back;the buck was killed instantly but I won't tell you what type bullet because it would be completely contrary to your own theory.Based on that happening,I could say "no offense,you would be wrong".....

But that kill was an exception,and generally,with any bullet and a gut shot, you got a problem.So I think Jordan's statement on the issue is closer to the truth than yours;and all I did was agree with him......but thanks for your insight, which I am sure you believe to be true......I appreciate it......

+1 BobinNH...........

Match bullets, like varmint bullets, will kill if slipped into the lung heart area as they typically explode and make the innards mush.

The stupid question that I can never get answered is why use them?
Within ethical hunting parameters any premium hunting bullet will ALSO break big bones, let you shoot em up the butthole if that's all you have or break down something that wants to hurt you.
You shoot a big 6X6 up the butt with ANY Berger Bullet and he has a gut full of grass, what you will have is a lost but dead Elk. (After days of agony)
The same weight Partition, Barnes or Swift will keep on going into the vitals and probably not be recovered, what you will have is a dead Elk with a blood trail if needed.

So why bother to do the wrong thing?

I don't use the match VLD but do use their hunting VLD and it works as advertised. If you haven't tried it, don't comment on it's performance since you have no experience.Rick.

I can't believe I am posting to this thread, but I have hunted/hunt with the Bergers and love them. I started out with the SMK's and they also took game. So has my go to bullet the Reminton Corelock and my second choice the TSX. I have shot deer from 20ft in the backyard to 760yd's (my longest shot to date). I have also found that for what ever reason every bullet I have ever tried has "failed" at some point one time and the rest of the time - WOW big hole and bloody mess. I hunt with several cals from my 243 up to my 300win mag. I don't worry about the range out to about 400yds regardless of cal. I shoot the load that is the most accurate in any given gun and that's all. So there's my two cents for what it's worth which ain't much.

Do you realy believe that they are made differently?

They are a great long range bullet and by long range bullet very accurate with high BC values I mean farther than 500 yards

Thanks

I don't doubt that you typically might get shorter tracking jobs with animals that are hit in the guts with fragmenting bullets such as the A-Max or VLD, but to say that such a bullet ensures a short blood trail and corresponding tracking job is untrue, IMO.

Yes I believe they are different bullets since they have different BCs. Talked with Walt Berger at the Shot Show this past Feb, he confirmed it. Mule Deer was on the hunt with Walt Berger in New Zealand and has confirmed their performance. I don't use Sierra MKs since Sierra doesn't recommend that bullet for hunting but I have friends that kill deer with them every year.
For some posters there seems to be quite a resistance to the use of hunting VLDs. Opinions with no experience other than "I have a friend or have seen----". I have used them for the past three years on deer and hogs. Haven't had a single problem but I must admit that I will wait for my shot, no Texas heart shots, no poke and hope shots. I will pass on a shot if it is questionable in my mind. But the Bergers have taken deer and hogs from 20' to 300yds. Most are DRTs but I have had to trail a few about 50-75yds. I know they aren't a bullet for all occassions but that bullet isn't made. If I had to use just one bullet for all hunting, it would be a Nosler partition.Rick.

Two final thoughts:
1. I only use Barnes and I always (when possible) shoot big game through both shoulders. The meat loss of 3-5 pounds means nothing compared to having an animal DOA on the spot.
2. Perhaps we could get a group of the "match bullets for hunting" crowd together to go on a Cape Buffalo safari. That would reduce the number of "hunters" blowing craters in animals and participating in this so called "long range hunting" which is an oxymoron. Hunting is a lot more than sitting in a blind with a benchrest and whacking at some hapless deer that doesn't even know how that feeder got out in the field.
As an often quoted phrase says: you a'int huntin Elk till you can smell em."
This what recovered hunting bullets, shot at responsible, ethical look like ranges. All went 2/3 to full length in the respective animals...no match bullet can compare.



Pass the popcorn.

What's different about them?



Hunting Bullets
Description Bullet Dia. Grain (Weight) G1
BC G7
BC Recomm. Twist Part Number
6 MM
6mm 95 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.243 95 0.486 0.249 9 24527
6mm 105 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.243 105 0.532 0.272 8 24528
6mm 115 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.243 115 0.545 0.279 7 24530
25 CALIBER
25 cal 115 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.257 115 0.466 0.239 10 25513
6.5 MM
6.5mm 130 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.264 130 0.552 0.282 8 26503
6.5mm 140 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.264 140 0.612 0.313 8 26504
270 CALIBER
270 cal 130 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.277 130 0.452 0.231 11 27501
270 cal 140 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.277 140 0.487 0.248 11 27502
270 cal 150 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.277 150 0.531 0.272 10 27503
7 MM
7mm 140 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.284 140 0.486 0.249 11 28503
7mm 168 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.284 168 0.617 0.316 10 28501
7mm 180 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.284 180 0.659 0.337 9 28502
30 CALIBER
30 cal 155 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.308 155 0.439 0.225 14 30508
30 cal 168 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.308 168 0.473 0.242 13 30510
30 cal 175 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.308 175 0.498 0.255 13 30512
30 cal 185 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.308 185 0.549 0.281 12 30513
30 cal 190 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.308 190 0.570 0.291 12 30514
30 cal 210 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.308 210 0.631 0.323 11 30515
---------------------------------------------------------------






Target Bullets
Description Bullet Dia. Grain (Weight) G1
BC G7
BC Recomm. Twist Part Number
17 CALIBER
17 cal 25 Grain Match Target 0.172 25 0.190 - 10 17407
22 CALIBER
22 cal 50 Grain Match Target 0.224 50 0.233 - 14 22406
22 cal 52 Grain Match Target 0.224 52 0.242 - 14 22408
22 cal 52 Grain Match Target MOLY 0.224 52 0.242 - 14 22608
22 cal 55 Grain Match Target 0.224 55 0.262 - 14 22410
22 cal 70 Grain Match Target VLD 0.224 70 0.371 0.190 9 22418
22 cal 73 Grain Match Target BT 0.224 73 0.343 0.176 9 22420
22 cal 75 Grain Match Target VLD 0.224 75 0.423 0.217 8 22421
22 cal 77 Grain Match Target BT 0.224 77 0.376 0.192 8 22425
22 cal 80 Grain Match Target VLD 0.224 80 0.445 0.228 8 22422
22 cal 80 Grain Match Target VLD MOLY 0.224 80 0.445 0.228 8 22622
22 cal 82 Grain Match Target BT 0.224 82 0.444 0.227 8 22424
22 cal 90 Grain Match Target BT Long Range 0.224 90 0.512 0.262 7 22426
22 cal 90 Grain Match Target VLD 0.224 90 0.551 0.281 7 22423
6 MM
6mm 62 Grain Match Target 0.243 62 0.237 - 14 24403
6mm 65 Grain Match Target 0.243 65 0.269 - 13 24405
6mm 65 Grain Match Target BT 0.243 65 0.270 0.138 13 24408
6mm 68 Grain Match Target 0.243 68 0.280 - 13 24411
6mm 68 Grain Match Target MOLY 0.243 68 0.280 - 13 24611
6mm 70 Grain Match Target 0.243 70 0.277 - 13 24415
6mm 90 Grain Match Target BT 0.243 90 0.410 0.210 10 24425
6mm 95 Grain Match Target VLD 0.243 95 0.486 0.249 9 24427
image not available 6mm 100 Grain Match Target BT 0.243 100 0.481 0.246
6mm 105 Grain Match Target BT 0.243 105 0.493 0.253 8 24428
6mm 105 Grain Match Target BT MOLY 0.243 105 0.493 0.253 8 24628
6mm 105 Grain Match Target VLD 0.243 105 0.532 0.272 8 24429
6mm 105 Grain Match Target VLD MOLY 0.243 105 0.532 0.272 8 24629
6mm 108 Grain Match Target BT 0.243 108 0.511 0.262 8 24431
6mm 115 Grain Match Target VLD 0.243 115 0.545 0.279 7 24430
25 CALIBER
25 cal 87 Grain Match Target 0.257 87 0.292 - 13 25407
25 cal 115 Grain Match Target VLD 0.257 115 0.466 0.239 10 25413
6.5 MM
image not available 6.5mm 100 Grain Match Target BT 0.264 100 0.377 0.193
6.5mm 120 Grain Match Target BT 0.264 120 0.453 0.232 10 26402
6.5mm 130 Grain Match Target VLD 0.264 130 0.552 0.282 8 26403
6.5mm 140 Grain Match Target BT 0.264 140 0.559 0.286 8 26406
6.5mm 140 Grain Match Target VLD 0.264 140 0.612 0.313 8 26401
6.5mm 140 Grain Match Target VLD MOLY 0.264 140 0.612 0.313 8 26601
6.5mm 140 Grain Match Target BT Long Range 0.264 140 0.592 0.303 8 26409
7 MM
7mm 168 Grain Match Target VLD 0.284 168 0.617 0.316 10 28401
7mm 180 Grain Match Target BT 0.284 180 0.613 0.314 9 28404
7mm 180 Grain Match Target VLD 0.284 180 0.659 0.337 9 28405
30 CALIBER
30 cal 110 Grain Match Target FB 0.308 110 0.284 - 19 30401
30 cal 115 Grain Match Target FB 0.308 115 0.296 - 19 30421
30 cal 125 Grain Match Target FB 0.308 125 0.329 - 19 30403
30 cal 135 Grain Match Target FB 0.308 135 0.367 - 16 30405
30 cal 150 Grain Match Target FB 0.308 150 0.398 - 15 30407
30 cal 155 Grain Match Target BT 0.308 155 0.438 0.224 14 30409
30 cal 155 Grain Match Target VLD 0.308 155 0.439 0.225 14 30408
30 cal 155.5 Grain Match BT FULLBORE 0.308 155.5 0.464 0.237 13 30416
30 cal 168 Grain Match Target BT 0.308 168 0.452 0.231 13 30411
30 cal 168 Grain Match Target VLD 0.308 168 0.473 0.242 13 30410
30 cal 168 Grain Match Target VLD MOLY 0.308 168 0.473 0.242 13 30610
30 cal 175 Grain Match Target BT Long Range 0.308 175 0.515 0.264 13 30420
30 cal 175 Grain Match Target VLD 0.308 175 0.498 0.255 13 30412
30 cal 185 Grain Match Target BT Long Range 0.308 185 0.560 0.287 12 30418
30 cal 185 Grain Match Target VLD 0.308 185 0.549 0.281 12 30413
30 cal 190 Grain Match Target VLD 0.308 190 0.570 0.291 12 30414
30 cal 210 Grain Match Target BT Long Range 0.308 210 0.626 0.320 11 30419
30 cal 210 Grain Match Target VLD 0.308 210 0.631 0.323 11 30415

Gentlemen, I have thoroughly enjoyed reading all of these posts and learning from them -- you have provided much to glean about the nuance of bullet performance at various ranges and angles of attack. I am hunting a spot of public land on the side of a mountain that was clear cut in many places years ago, and the clear-cuts are now overgrown with the most vexing thickets and impenetrable briar patches known to man. The deer use them as sanctuary. A day or two into rifle season and the deer, when you see them, will appear at any angle and only for a moment. An exposed deer is exposed only for the time it takes to bound from one point of cover to another. You must take the shot you get, or go home with an unfilled tag. My bullet of choice is the nosler partition, and after reading your posts, I believe that is the soundest choice for my conditions.

..........Oldman........Here are my final thoughts and passin your oxy-moron popcorn right back to ya!!!

#1) From the 14 hogs and 1 elk I`ve killed with the VLD, I`ve had more than enough meat leftover.
#2) Your Barnes bullets don`t match the high flying BCs of the VLDs.
#3) Us VLD users prefer our animals DRT on the spot as best as possible to eliminate tracking.
#4) Your stupid and dumb caped buffalo safari analogy is is exactly that,,,,dumb and stupid!!! There was no mention of using VLDs for any caped buffalo by the proponents. You thinkin way too much!!!
#5) Your preaching about what`s ethical and responsible has absolutely nothing to do with VLD users including myself who use them.
#6) We simply kill our game a different way than you do. Us VLD, A/Max proponents prefer little to no tracking, a DRT effect, not interested in bullet recoveries, bullet weight retentions or complete penetrations.
#7) The VLDs kill the game very effectively there pal.
#8) So until you yourself start using them (which you won`t), your credibility until then,,,,,really SUCKS (the polite term).

There, I fixed it for you....

W/o re-reading this whole thread, IIRC, JB said in an earlier post that Berger actually had to modify the hunting version to make it open up more........apparently the target version is/was too tough/hard & penciled too much.

He'd be the one too know..........

MM

The BC's are the same and the bullets are the same

Ha, JWP475, i got a good chuckle out of that "correction"!! I am afraid the dang TSX in a 7x57 or .280 Rem would just pencil right thru these smallish deer we have here... and I don't want to try to recover one from these thickets!! Put em' down quickly, and drag them ***down*** the mountain the two miles to the jeep.

The 110 or 120 .284 TTSX would work just fine for you. Opens quicker than a TSX but still punches through. This is a "smallish" Mulie doe (about 120 lbs) I killed on a control permit at 80 yards from a 300 Savage pushing the 130 TTSX out at 2800. Cut a rib goin in, destroyed the lungs and exit was about 2.5".

Yeah, the BC's are the same but the catalog numbers are different for hunting bullets vs target and the metallurgy is different to allow for "correct" expansion/explosion as explained by JB.

The fact that the catalog numbers are different tells me the bullets are different, unless that's just a marketing ploy.

My original thought was that they were the same bullets but w/o talking to Berger myself, I'll take JB's word for it.

I have no plans to use 'em so it's a moot point for me.

MM

The Long Range Hunting community have been useing Berger VLD's and SMK's for many years when they were only advertised as a "Match" bullet the Bergers worked exactlly the same then as they do today. I'm not buying the marketing hype

Yeah, that was my original take, too.

There must be something to the performance side of the VLD's........there's too many guys with solid credentials that like them to be otherwise.

MM

The Long Range Hunters were touting them for years and they were atacked by those that had never tried them and just parioted the "never use Match bullets for hunting". An accurate shot that carefully places his shot can kill with about anything IMHO & experience and that is how long range hunters opporate

Just checked the BC on two of my Bergers, both 30cal. The 168gr target has a BC of 512 and the hunting is 473. The i55s are 472 and 439. Not marketing hype. If you think that is marketing hype so be it, you are missing out on a great bullet. Sure doesn't take a premium bullet to take a whitetail. Just about any cup/core bullet will take them without a problem if the shooter is up to the task. No bullet will make up for poor shot placement.Rick.

I've used matchbullets on game including SMK's. I haven't missed out on anything, but I only use them when I am Long Range Hunting. for normal hunting ranges thier are better bullet choices IMHO & experience. I posted the BC's of all of Bullgers hunting and Match bullets from their web site. You saying the web site is wrong?

Walt Berger stated that tha Jackets on the Match are thicker thus they do not open up muck. Almost like a FMJ.

The jackets on the Berger match bullets are J-4 jackets and are rather thin to begin wth. The Berger Match bullet fragment violetly when they hit game. You guys just discovered them and are falling for the market hype. They work the same as they always have. Useing thm on game is not new.

SPOT ON.

I remember reading that also. Not sure about the modification to initiate axpansion but I am sure it was stated that the Match might act like FMJ's.
I am discussing the difference between the Hunting and Match VLD's now. Nothing else. Just to make sure we're on the same page here

I have noticed on this thread as well as on other threads, that when it comes to certain subjects concerning rifles, bullets, scopes or whatever, a "TYPICAL" comment from those who either don`t believe in the product, haven`t used the product, or who refuse to use a product because of their opinions on how things should be done is,,,,,,

That`s a bunch of,,,"marketing hype!"

They always pawn things off as,,,"marketing hype!"

Why hell,,,that`s just a bunch of damn,,,"marketing hype!"

Of course, these same BOZOS who constantly use "marketing hype" as a way to denounce another successful way of doing things, weren`t involved in the company lab testings, the R&D, the designs OR anything else for that matter.

Nevertheless, it`s still a bunch of "marketing hype" from the same yo-yo`s, who they themselves, cannot disprove the validity of the products by the companies who develop them.

Instead of using the term "marketing hype",,,why not just cut to the chase and call them,,,,,,,liars!!!

Since maybe we've used them for years and maybe know a thing or two about thier performance before and now

...........Ok! Then let`s read some evidence of a VLD bullet failure after a well placed shot.

Bullet fragmentation after a few inches of penetration is just another way of killing game! Fragmentation does not mean failure but rather another way to get it done!

You have a read comprehesion problem?

I have or have used some of each, and they are NOT the same. Jackets are noticeably thicker on the target version. Before what is now known as the target version was produced, what is now the "Hunting" version WAS the "target" version. Also, I have not yet found a reason yet to think Mule Deer puts out inaccurate information:



John

...........I interpreted your above post the wrong way! Sorry!

I posted what is stamped on my Berger boxes. There have been enough posts and articles on the hunting VLDs, the New Zealand hunt by Mule Deer, that I don't believe it is marketing hype. Sierra suggests that the MKs not be used for hunting and has made the HPBT Game Kings as a substitute. Guess that would be classified as marketing hype in your book. I have killed about 15 deer and several hogs with the hunting VLD and their performance has been excellent. Two does that I killed at quite different ranges, one at like 35yds and one at 200yds, were both hit in the center of a rib. The holes looked like they were drilled through the ribs. The heart/lung areas were like jello and had a nice exit hole on both. I have hit ribs on entrance with other bullets and the results have always been massive rib fracture.
From my personal experience over the past few years with the hunting VLDs, what Mule Deer has reported and conversation with Walt Berger, this is not marketing hype.Rick.

Come on Berger boys....we'll be waiting (GRIN)

These are cup/core bullets and no one has suggested they be used on dangerous game. Just as the bullets I would use on them would not make good varmint bullets. Let's keep this discussion in the realistic world.Rick.

I've heard quite a few people who have used the VLD for deer and red stag-sized game (including JB/MD) who will be the first to admit that they're not appropriate for large dangerous game.

As a matter of fact some time ago JB suggested to one potential black bear hunter that the VLD wasn't right for that application.

It seems like quite a stretch to suggest that the fact that a bullet isn't up to black death and grizzlies automatically means that the same isn't up to deer. I guess if you think that the only bullet worthy to be fired these days is the Barnes X you might think this way, but it doesn't stand up to logic.

If you apply that same logic to other bullets then not only is the VLD not worth trying on whitetails but neither are Hot Cors, Interocks, Core Lokts, Power Points, or many of the other bullets that have been killing deer like mad for the last 100+ years.

Use the right tool for the job and you'll be fine. If you don't think the VLD has proven itself as a worthy deer bullet we live in a free market society so pick whatever you like. I've heard enough from trustworthy sources to believe that it'll work fine for that application, but didn't consider the other bullets available to be in need of replacing so I haven't tried 'em yet.

If you think that you need a bullet capable of penetrating an F-350 length-wise to kill a whitetail, again, its a free country and Barnes has a sundry of projectiles available. Have at it.

........Rick!........In agreement with ya 100%. Your same experience also apply to mine as well.

.............Well here we go! Another idiotic but cute post by Oldman 1942. HEY `OL MAN!! Nobody suggested using VLDs on caped buffalo or on big grizzlies!

Gee whiz, I have killed both Cape buffalo and grizzly quite readily with bullets that weren't TSX's--and weren't Berger VLD's, either. Who'd guess there were other choices?

Using them on ANYTHING is unnecessary and an invitation to a lost animal. It's just ego at work and the latest fad. Proven big game bullets have always worked and always will. Remember there were fools who hunted Tiger with the 22 HP....it was the "cool tool" of its day.

MD: as for other bullets NOT working, I don't recall saying that. Partitions, Woodleighs and Swifts are also on my short list. A glorified Varmint bullet is not. Probably few if any of these "experts" have never jumped an Elk in the black timber and sure as hell didn't shoot his South end going North or they would not be promoting this crap.
Unlike most I actually read that story on hunting the Red Deer in NZ and, if memory serves me, there was little penetration, explosive expansion, no blood trails, no exit wounds, no major locomotive bones broken....in short the last thing I would want if I were after putting an animal down with both shoulders broken or end to end penetration when required.

I repeat: There is no rational reason for a hunter to use anything but a broad spectrum hunting bullet. As for "not suggesting their use for dangerous game"...come along on an Elk or Mulie hunt within 100 miles of Yellowstone and if you don't see Mr. Griz, it's just cuz you a'int looking. Up in the Gros Ventre last year, it was a dull day if we didn't see a dozen while glassing for Elk.
I don't hear the PHs in Africa suggesting client bringing match bullets for the same reason. Just cause you're chasing an Impala doesn't mean you might not meet a Lion or a Buff.
You keep poppin those little deer and pigs with your glorified varmint bullet, but stay away from things that bite back.
Gump's wisdom never fails............

I am starting to conclude that you have a reading disability. I have read most of the threads on the Campfire about VLD's and nobody has ever suggested using them for shooting elk in the ass, or for dangerous game.

You also evidently didn't comprehend the New Zealand article, as the VLD's exited on most of the deer-sized game, and even on half the 400-pound red stags taken. And they penetrated all the way to the other side on every stag.

VLD's are fine bullets for pronghorn/deer/pigs and work fine on elk in open country--and there are a lot of elk in open country these days. That has been proven over and over again for several years now. They kill quickly, and I don't know of anybody who has lost an animal shot with one, perhaps because only experienced hunter/shooters have used them.

A dozen grizzly a day?

Hunters that feel they must have a bullet to compensate for poor shot placement, ass end of an animal, need to go back to school. If you can't get proper shot placement, pass on the shot. Don't give me the spent so much for the hunt routine, been there done that and passed on a questionable shot as any reasonable hunter should. I have taken quite a few animals in various states and have gone empty handed due to position of the animal at the time. If you can't do that don't hunt.Rick.

I agree totally--but apparently oldman is fond of ass-shooting game, because he mentions it so often.

Yup I kill them, don't really care where the bullet goes in.
I KNOW you'ld ALL pass up a shot at a 400+ point 6X6 because he wasn't standing broadside waiting for you to deploy your bipod, windmeter, computer, spotting scope and whatever else crap you carry on your ATV. Dead is dead, that's the only thing that counts. There are no "rules of engagement" when Elk hunting other than the game laws and no skyline shots.

And for our boy in WNY, where I spent most of my life, we "ass shot" lots of Whitetails because good bucks have this annoying habit of laying up in some nasty blowdown or thicket before sunrise and not moving until after dark. If you kick them out, they usually don't run TOWARD you. As for Mr Griz, suggest you go on a nice backpacking trip in Jellystone in mid July. Get back in about 10 miles and you'll wonder WTF am I doing here with a can of fing pepper spray and some bells. You probably believe their are no Puma in WNY too......

I don't know if you're talking to me, as I don't think I posted on this thread, but on behalf of Griz everywhere, you can KMA, Framis.

JB...in regards to oldman 1942...check out my new signature line!!

Ingwe

Don't give me advice about grizzlies, you pompous twit. I was born and raised in grizzly country in southwest Montana, and have spent plenty of time hunting not only there but in the Bob Marshall Wilderness, and when in my 20's spent a lot of time hiking the backcountry in Glacier Park. Plus I have hunted a lot in grizzly country in four provinces of Canada, as well as Alaska, including the area that has the highest concentration of brown bears anywhere in the state during late summer and early fall, when I was there.

And no, I don't own an ATV, or a hand-held computer or any of "that crap"--except, sometimes, a spotitng scope, which I carry in my daypack. I have managed to keep elk meat in the freezer for 40 years without any of that, or shooting one in the ass.

Given his constant anal fixation, methinks oldman might like to do more to the asses of unsuspecting critters than shoot them with a rifle bullet.

Dooooood....



Ingwe

Oldman - dunno why you're getting so worked up. Barsness wrote about how well they worked on deer sized critters. So did a few others. A couple of my shooting buddies also used them, even before the articles came out. I read & listened. The VLD sounded good and I tried them, on mule deer. Three quick kills later, I'm impressed. They work well on mule deer. They're also accurate. A good bullet and another alternative for us hunters.

What's to get all worked up about?

I've used Barnes & Nosler and other bullets with great results too. Different tools... That's all, just different tools.

Guy

Framis/oldman,

With a post like that & who it was directed at, Rick should ban your sorry azz, muy pronto.

MM

+1

Ingwe

I don't know about that, I've had far worse posts, but I'm not prone of making an idiot of myself with the frequency of noprostate1942.

............`OLDMAN 1942!!!...I must say that you are quite a piece of work. You seem to have more rusticles between your ears than the amount of rusticles eating away at the Titanic!!!!

Invitation to a lost animal you say???......In my experience with the VLDs, that score is 15 to 0 in my favor. 14 hogs which ranged in weight from 165 lbs up to 427 lbs and one bull elk with an estimated weight at nearly 800 lbs. Didn`t lose a one!!! So it would seem to "MOST" logical thinking people (which that particular trait seems to have bypassed you), that your argument, aka an "invitation" as you say to a lost animal, is a useless one based entirely on your own opinion, from which you have absolutely no personal experience. Oh you may hear some here-say from others second hand here and there, but YOU yourself have no experience hunting with the VLDs.....So if you were in a court of law trying to make your case against the VLDs based strictly on your opinions, the judge would laugh your ass right out of court.

As you say, "it`s just ego at work and the latest fad!!! Well! You can call it what you may sir, but my results speak for themselves, as well as the successful VLD results of many others which you choose to blatently ignore!!!

As you go on to stupidly state,,,"there were fools who hunted tiger with a 22. I can see that you have the uncanny ability for "truly" making equal, very "viable" and honest comparisions.

As to the rest oy your post, I have come to the conclusion that you are simply an idiot, but I won`t mind hunting with one such as yourself!

Tell ya what there `Ol Man!!!! Let`s really seperate your opinions vs the true VLD facts and succeses shall we??? I have a proposal for ya!!! Here it is!!!

Let`s you and I go on an elk hunt. You pick the place, the terrain. I`ll use the VLD, the powder and charge of my choosing, and my `lil pip squeak shorty tubed 300 WSM Ruger Frontier compact. I will put up $100K (that`s $100,000 in the form of a cashiers check) based on the following conditions.

#1) That I will fire only one shot out to a maximum distance of 500 yards to drop the bull elk. Would you like there to be a minimum distance??? Not a problem!!!

#2) The elk must drop within a few yards of impact. Shall we say within 20 yards? After all, I don`t want to lose Mr. Elk.

#3) Both of the above conditions must be met and if not,,then YOU get the money! Cashola on the table!!!

4) If I am successful on both counts, then you shall pay me $100K!!!!!!!!

Now how`s that for an invitation sir??? You seem to be SOOOO confident and ABSOLUTELY convinced that the VLDs are nothing more than mere varmit bullets......WELL!!!...HERE`S YOUR BIG CHANCE TO REALLY CAPITALIZE, make your case and become richer in the process. What an opportunity for ya!!! I`d jump on it if I were you!!!

PUT IT UP or SHUT IT UP!!!............What`s it going to be???? Wanna play???

Um... seriously; consider the quote, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

Your mind... educated, or...

We had a member in our hunt club that started out with a 300WM shooting 180gr partitions, a bit much for our whitetails but that was his business. Any deer he brough in was shot at least twice usually once in the rear and then somewhere else. That wasn't enough gun and the bullet wasn't working properly. Went to the then new Marlin 450, if memory serves. Same type of kills. When he came in with a doe and spotted fawn, both had been shot in the rear, his first shot on each, we dismissed him from the club. We did find several deer on the property, buzzards help, that he had shot in the rear and was unable to recover. If you can't place your first shot in the kill zone don't plan on another shot. More game will be lost to shot placement than type of bullet. No I don't carry all the whiz gadgets. Binocs, bullets, flashlight, drag rope, rifle and usually some toilet paper if I have had some mexican food. I have more respect for the game I hunt than to take an iffy shot and yes I have passed on shots at trophy animals due to not being able to place my first round in the kill zone. I don't consider the rear end a kill zone. That is a desperation shot.Rick.

Wow, nailed it, in two words no less. Concise and definitive.

Pompous fits to a "T" and twit is close, but not quite there. Can I buy a vowel?

I actually wanted the second word to be something other than "twit," but Rick won't let me use the word I wanted to.

Twit is pretty close, though, and maybe works just as well.

That's OK, I'm a missile surgeon, I can figure it out.

twat, maybe...?

Rhymes with punt.

Qoute:

And for our boy in WNY, where I spent most of my life, we "ass shot" lots of Whitetails because good bucks have this annoying habit of laying up in some nasty blowdown or thicket before sunrise and not moving until after dark. If you kick them out, they usually don't run TOWARD you. As for Mr Griz, suggest you go on a nice backpacking trip in Jellystone in mid July. Get back in about 10 miles and you'll wonder WTF am I doing here with a can of fing pepper spray and some bells. You probably believe their are no Puma in WNY too......

Am I your "boy in WNY"? You been drinking? I was curious about your statement about all them grizzly bear, not your ass shooting of all your trophy animals. I wouldn't ass shoot any animal ever, unless wounded. And you hardily admit it? Puff that chest out and thump it.

Only Puma in WNY are on my feet.

no vld failures here

You think he's a runt? That would explain a lot--little man's syndrome.

Question: "I just read a post on another site stating that the jackets are something like 0.005" thicker along the bearing surface of the bullet. Not really sure what that will do to bullet performance on game. Out of curiosity how thick is the standard jacket on a VLD?"

Poster of the picture: "I measured both of them at 35 thousandths."

I've been saying this entire thread what you justed showed.

..........Though I could be mistaken, from what I understand, the VLD hunting bullets use a slightly thinner jacket thickness in order for them to do what they do after the initial 2" to 3" of penetration, which is to violently disrupt the vitals.

The match VLDs use a thicker jacket. Because of their thicker jackets, they won`t do as much internal damage as the thinner jacketed VLD hunting bullets do.

After reviewing the Berger site, if you have any further questions as to actual jacket thickness and effect on game, then give Berger a call.

Berger started usuing heaver jackets because fast twisted rifle barrels tended to make Bergers come apart on there way to the target.David Tubb had that experience and quit usuing them.
So VLD hunting bullets use a slightly thinner jacket and match VLDs use a thicker jacket.At least thats what there advertizeing says.
Somehow that just seems azz backwards to me.
dave

how many people do the two trolls Liar24 and Oldstinky1942 have to run off before Rick gets tired of them?

............Yeah, I know! But if you think about it though, the thinner jacketed (hunting) VLDs help create the wider, more explosive and more disruptive wound channels than do their thicker jacketed match bullets. From what I gather, that`s why the thinner jackets are used for the hunting versions.

The bottom line is, they work reeeeeeeeeeel good!

In the pics above, the one on the right may be one of the early match VLDs. Before they found out they made excellent hunting bullets they all came in the yellow boxes and did not specify match or hunting. I have some early 30cal 175s and after trading emails with Berger realize they are what are now available in the orange box and suitable for either match or hunting. As mentioned above, it is the match bullets that have changed.

Exactly.

I could care less what the box color is, all I know is they kill stuff dead and I don't have to track it.

For the majority of my hunting they just flat work. For those Berger haters out there, that have not even used them, stick with your bent tipped tsx's.

Edit: Not directed at you JB.

..........We need a moving "applause" emoticon too!!!! CLAP! CLAP! CLAP! CLAP! CLAP! CLAP! CLAP!

The Berger bullets to some,,,,is like Kryptonite to Superman!!! The hinges on their very "traditional" doors, are either rusted shut or welded shut!!!

Aristotle.....

John, you'll have to excuse (not really) "Oldman". He's one of those interlopers that moved to our neck of the woods from another State (NY) and thinks he knows everything. God knows we need more of those in MT and WY right?

Pompous doesn't even begin to cover it my friend

I must say thou, that his admission (on another forum) that he shot an Antelope here with a .22-06 took a lot of...balls? Considering that we have a 6mm min caliber requirement in WY.

JLM, did he have to shoot that one from the rear end?Rick.

JLM,

Yup, he's one of those New York mountain men.

If we assume he was born in 1942, then he's 10 years older than I am. I encountered my first wild grizzly at age 8, probably about the time Pompous Twit was starting to perfect his ass-shooting technique on NY whitetails....

I doubt I will provide any enlightenment here, but since I have sacrificed most of 2010 reading this post I thought I would reinforce some assertions here and offer up a test.

First, I have personal experience with the Berger's in 168 gr 7mm RM(1deer @ 350 yards, 1 Bull Elk @ 350 yards) and 115 gr 25-06(1deer 88 yards and 1 deer 410 yards). Both of the 7mm 168's where exactly as advertised with 4" penetration then explosive damage. Both went through bone on the way in. The .257 rounds were not as advertised. Three of the 6 rounds went through with pencil sized holes in and out, with little or no damage to the lungs. All of these shots failed to touch any bone at all with shots broadside through the ribcage. A third shot blew up the liver. I apologize for not shooting any through the keyster for test purposes

I do call this a failure and I wonder if this was due to the smaller caliber? I have read a few posts asserting that this is somewhat common on small caliber hollow points due to the small hole. I have actually read this is common with the TSX's. I feel confident that if I had his anything more solid than lung tissue, even a paunch full of grass then the bullet would have expanded.

I was learry to start using a "Target" bullet and have read posts for 4 years before taking them up. I first learned about them from "Best of the West" show, where they kill lots of animals with them. The have promoted the "delayed" expansion. I purchused John Burn's video tapes where he does a test my shooting into wet newspaper and then large beef bones, shoulders or leg bones. The results where complete pass through all bones at both short and long distances then fragmentation that provided for 12+ inches of penetration.

Based on my experience and the many many reports I have NO issues using my 168's on elk/moose at short or long distances as I believe it has been documented that THESE vld bullets will penetrate through the bones and create major hydrostatic shock. This is different than the many reports of other VLD target bullets that are known to blow up in the first inch, not 4" and that is a HUGE difference. I also believe clearly that there is a difference between their Hunting and Target rounds and that any cartridge company as big as Berger isn't going to LIE about this kind of difference as their LAWYERS will not let them.

To prove this, let's simulate some tests.

First, let's get some current bullets and cut them. Additionally let's invite the guys from Berger to explain it to us.

Second, let's get some bones and media and fire bullets into them.

I think one of the best posts in these 27 pages of posts, referred to the two camps of bullets 1. Deep penetrating, high penetration, blood trail TSX's vs 2. Full energy releasing, DRT type VLD's. I believe the accubond and partition types fall between these two with 50% weight retention and smaller exit holes. So, I would consider these tests a success and the bullets reliable if they can go THROUGH the bones and have at lease 8-12" of significant penetration.

P.S. I will be happy to take my 7mm RM w/ 168 Bergers into Grizz country while you come along with your single shot smoke pole.

Im eating elk!

BKondeff,

I have seen a bunch of animals shot with the .25 115 VLD's and they have always expanded. I wonder if you got hold of some of the first strictly-target models, where the problem was detected. It took a little while for the Berger folks to figure out that the minor change in the target model caused some of the bullets not to open.

The expansion of VLDs has nothing to do with the "hollow point." In fact it's closed on both models; you can't even get a sharp pin into it. Instead the thin point on the jacket apparently collapsed, since there's nothing but air inside the jacket just behind the tip. You can see this on the sectioned bullets posted on this thread.

Pops? How many accounts do you need here on the fire??

POPS
IraqLion
Fotis??

How many more???

.............You forget to mention our "most esteemed" collegue and VLD hater,,,,,,,Mr. Oldman1942!!!!

Successful personal experiences, accounts and facts from the many VLD users be damned.

I guess he passed on my earlier proposal, as he more than likely would have read my offer by now!!!

My " Pop" account has been locked out since Last May. I do not know why. Several attempts to unlock have been fruitless. If I were hiding my identity my current signature would in fact be different. So in light of this I re registered under Fotis which is my real name.
I am not Oldman1942 nor do I know the gentleman. But since you brought it up let me set the record straight,

I do shoot bergers. So far specifically the 210 VLD's in the 300 RUM.
I am working on them with RL25 and Retumbo. (Remember I am the one who suggested reading JB's New Zealand hunting article so they way the VLD's work can be comprehended better.)
Up to now I was using 168 TTSX's and180, and 200 gr accubonds.
Alas a tinkerer will always be a tinkerer and can not leave well enough alone. So I am handloading them now. Have not shot them though.
I have always been a proponent of super duper penetration however I can accept the Berger performance because they do seem to be repeatable. 2-3 inches of penetration and then crazy expansion and energy dump. I can live with that because the dump is in the vitals. I have personally seen what a 115 VLD does to a muley from a 257 Bee. Antelope too.

Now as far as the other target bullets go, in my mind the jury is still out as far as consistency and repeatability goes. Again this is based on others' experience and not mine--with these (a-maxes SMK's etc). Can not speak from personal experience on other match type designs.
To be honest I would love for all bullets to be game worthy (whatever that means) so we can have a greater selection.
Who would not love a SMK with great BC and accuracy and use it for everything? I would. Short range, long range whatever.

So I think my time is the confession booth is up fellas. Take it for what it is worth. I am not here to make trouble and I am sorry some of you feel that way.


BTW I fail to see the resemblance. Although I'd rather have the elk in the freezer than a speed goat any day.

Oldman1942



Fotis

Pop, thanks for your service, I had been out 17 years before you got in. The "non servers" here assume that anyone who might not embrace the ideas that they DEMAND you do, cannot be more than ONE person because, after all "they" are the experts and all others are fools. Amusing but irrelevant to the real world.
Nice speed goat you have there!

My 08' buck:


Good hunting and ignore the brat pack keyboard commandos.

where is your musket old buzzard

i would like to be put on your ignore list like most on the sight but did not want to bump your stupid gun auction up so i held my request tell now

I have a LOT of guns, isn't that the "fun of it" or does running your keyboard commando mouth get you hard?

I'll remedy you're being overlooked right now.