One of the things I've grown away from over the years is the real need, most of the time, to take a long shot at a big game animal. I've done quite a bit of hunting in very open country for deer, elk, Pronghorn, and what not. The more I do this, the less it is necessary to shoot much over 300 yds. is what I've noticed. The other is that once past 300 yds. all sorts of things come into play that affect the shot. Not just the difficulty of holding the rifle steady, but the problems as to just how far out he is and, above all, what sort of wind call I need to make. The fancy laser range finders are wonderful things. Coupled with turrets or an accurate ranging reticle, they do make those relaxed, windless shots easy. The trouble I've noticed is that it's often much harder to hold that thing steady when I'm excited, and the darn wind is always blowing to some degree in the mountains.
We often hear that "there was no way to get closer." Really ? I thought so once myself. But I've learned a few things about that.
One is that if he's seen you, and he can, sometimes even at 1/2 mile or more, you've got no chance to get closer. The minute he sees what you are up to, he's gone. Disappear from sight, and the next time you look for him, he's moved. Often quite a ways. Ever try to dig out and use that range finder only to have him start moving before you are ready ? I've found that simple duplex style reticle can be very useful for those quicker, longer shots, but only up to a point. Like 300, maybe 350 yds.
But if he isn't aware of you, I've been really surprised how close I can get to them, even with nothing taller than my knee for cover. The trick is to stay low and move slowly. If his head snaps up in your direction, or he turns his head sideways to look at you, stop.
I've crawled a fair amount on my belly to do this. Very tough on the body. But it does work. I crawled to within 30 yds of a fedding buck once in open short grass. I've also smashed the inside of my knee pretty badly crawling up on bucks too. What works better for me is a bent over, slow duck walk. Pack and all. I've done this with older, sharp eyed Pronghorn bucks. I've done it on all sorts of deer. I've done it to sharp eyed, older cow elk.
With the elk and Pronghorn, I've been able to get within 300 yds on several occasions. The trick is they must not have a chance to recognize you. Even if they catch you upright, hold still until they relax. Then get down near the ground very slowly. Until you try this, you won't know how well this can work. I've been surprised enough to have faith in it.
A few other things I've noticed. In really open country, spend lots of time very slowly cresting a ridge. Look alot. I often literally still hunt to the top and over it. I've often found small herds of elk right there. Just at or below the crest. It might be a good idea to drop down as you go over the top. Harder for them to see and recognize you.
The other thing I've noticed is that if they do recognize you, very few quality animals will hold still so you can shoot at them at 500-600 yds. Maybe this isn't common in some of the really remote areas. But I've found only a few half way decent Pronghorn, for instance, that will stand around for more than 10 secs. at 500 yds. All the larger ones won't hold still for any lenth of time at almost twice that distance.
Another good trick is to learn to use binoculars well enough to see them first. In fact, that's one of the best tricks I know to get something really nice.
Another is to hunt with the low sun behind you or as close to that as you can make it. Stay in the shadows, even if that means being cold. Again, I've spotted alot of stuff above me, lit up by the early morning sun that had no idea I was around. Why ? Because I was a distance off and below them in the shadows.
I don't know just what your experience has been, but, for me, the toughest shots were the ones were the animal was in full flight and ducking through cover, not those long 500 yd. class shots. That, to my mind, calls for a rifle that will do this kind of shot best. Which is not something setup with an attached bipod for those long shots that don't really conme that often.
Thoughts ? E

Wind is a bitch.

I passed on pretty good pronghorn last fall because of it. He was bedded around 370 yards away with a 10-20 mph crosswind blowing(I can't judge wind speed very well). Belly crawled up to 'em and was setup prone with a Harris/300WSM. A couple of does had me pegged and finally they had enough, jumped up and the herd boogied out. Oh, well.

I was shooting the other day at 400 and was getting around 9" of drift in a pretty tame breeze.
Glad I didn't pop one off at the goat.

Sam you just gotta get those dotz on the sideways crosshair an you'll be good to go.

The lunker Z has 'em but then I'd need to get a wind meter....(grin)

I read somewhere that your allowed a sighter shot.

turrets and a drop and windage chart taped to the stock of your rifle. reading the wind comes with pratice and a wind gauge sure comes in handy but the wind can be differant from point a to point b

"Never trust any man until you've seen him shoot at something dangerous or that he wants really badly at fifty yards or under."

Yep they will allow one to make long shots in windy condition









Practice and the ballistic cards as well as the Kestrell 3500 pocket weather station allowed me to take the Doe at 777 yards with one shot in a 10 MPH quartering wind with a 180 grain TSX fired out of my 300 win

That is nuts JWP!


How many practice rounds did it take to really become confident in that system?

300 yds. is the longest killing shot I ever made. It was a mule deer with a .257 Rob. That's as long shot as I want to try and probably not that far now days. I'm finding that the older I get, the closer I want to be. And it's kinda fun trying to stalk up close.

well you need a rifle that will atleast hold 1/2 moa and then be able to shoot it that well. i shoot my 300 wm and 300 rum 2-3 hundred rounds each a yr

E

First we'll agree to differ here.

Your toughest shots are 50 yards and hauling it through thick stuff = for me, now way in heck am I going to risk that shot. For me its not ethical. Now maybe in the open sure, but I'm not a good running shot and I KNOW that. I opt to use my other skills.

The choice of skills shouldn't have to constantly be an argument. IE you shoot a rifle and therefore are a slob as you dont' choose a slingshot and stalking... and on and on....

Bottom line here to me, if you make a good decision that ends up in not taking a shot or a clean kill, regardless of the range or weapon, I'm good with that and thats my goal.

Being able to stalk takes practice. Being able to shoot long takes practice. I've crawled up on belly with a bow on game within 20-25 yards a number of times. No closer though. But I got tired of close bow shots and such, and as a competitive mid range shooter I do all my practice on longer shots, learnign to read teh wind, in matches where the first shot counts, no sighters etc..... to where I can place my first shot with iron sights at 600 yards with an AR15, about 95% of the time within 4-5 inches or less of center.

Point here is its what YOU want to perfect. And that doesn't bother me. You and I pick. 100 yard shots with iron sights handgun. Get after it. Stalk em close and take150 or less yard shot wiht a rifle. Good. Can't get any closer very easily and simply decide to use your shooting skills vs taking a chance on your stalking skills- get after it.

I will say that in about any wind, a 300 yard shot is gravy generally but you have to pay attention to wind drift, its easy to get into 3-4 moa wind that will drift you up to 12 inches or so at that distance. But the further out you get you either better be good and practiced with the right gear(hmm, same would apply to close stalking IMHO) or lucky, and I dont' do lucky. I pass if I'm not 200% sure. The 200 % sure is IMHO the ONLY thing to worry or waste time discussing. I dont' care what you choose to use or do as long as its legal, and you are happy with it.

Even if you want to hunt over corn(that should get the kettle boiling)

They all take practice, choose what you want to do, do it legally and all is good. They all eat the same really when it boils down to it. And thats a huge reason that I hunt, I like to eat.

Jeff

The closer, the better. I laugh at shows where the guy with a rifle can't get within 300-400 yards of the Dall Sheep, yet on another show, a guy with a recurve stalks up the mountain and shoots one bedded down...

Granted, it takes a lot of skill and practice to shoot far out, especially with a crosswind. I haven't tried my hand at it yet, though I'd like to. Until I get a scope with turrets, I'll keep my shooting pretty close.

jwp those are great tools, they help me take this one at 892 yards.

nice allen mag

Jeff, that's a good philosophy.


Practice enough to know your limitations.

It takes practice that is a given, but it also takes the proper rifle and scope. As you can plainly see in the picture posted by Joe Cool he has a Nightforce NXS scope on his 270 Allen Mag that he used to take a very nice buck with at 982 yards. Most on the Campfire refuse to even think about using the proper optics and rifles for long range work. The rifles along with the proper scopes are heavier than many are willing to use. The scope and it's turrets ability to track perfectly each and every time is paramount. Adding Stoney Point turrets to a regular scope is not the best road to success IMHO

At these types of ranges the very high BC bullets shine. I believe that Joe Cool used the 190 grain VLD Wildcat bullet from his 270 Allen mag if memory serves. If not then it was the 169.5 grain. These are very high BC bullets that are not as affected by wind as much as the lighter faster bullet are. Also I want to be in a prone position with a bi-pod and a rear bag under the stock for a rock solid steady shooting position in order to take a shot at long range on a game animal. If I am in a steady prone position then I feel very confident that I am going to kill that animal on the first shot

Before this gets rancorous, and it will, a comment or few.

Eremicus is right of course on not needing to take long shots. Bowhunters take all of the game we take with long shots, and do it in all areas of the country.

And PDS is right when he says, "Point here is its what YOU want to perfect."

People take long shots because we want to.

Then we argue for it, deny and minimize the odds of misses with our superior gear and ability, and justify it more than I've heard anyone do with other styles of hunting. I suspect that is because for most long rangers, (and I do believe PDS is an exception, among others) somewhere inside we sense that we are pushing the limits of personal ethics and responsibility. It is human nature to justify and seek approval from others for behavior that gives us inner doubts. Otherwise, who cares what anybody thinks about my style of hunting?

Nice antelope and buck. Those were GOOD shots.

What year did you start using a RF?

2003 I believe and they are invaluable if one intends to shoot at long range. LRF takes the guess work out of the equation. I learned hwo to hunt and shoot long range from some great guy's here http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/

They are sweet.

stxhunter

thanks it shoots as good as it looks.


jwp

I used the 195 wildcat to take that buck, glad to see I might be able to get them again in a few months. I still have a little over 300 of them though.

"I did find a bobcat while still-hunting at 10:00 AM Sunday morning. I walked up on him and took the shot at 35 yards."





We can stir this bucket all day and it's just gonna keep raising a stench.

I don't care what anyone else does as long as it's legal. You answer to your own sense of ethics, not mine.

As for my own self, I practice enough to know the range and conditions that I can make a killing shot and I work within those limitations. I'm not afraid to pass on any shot that I am not confident with.

However, when I see something I want to shoot and it's within my ability to hit it, I don't dick around trying to get closer or puck around with gadgets. I just shoot the damn thing.

Know (not guess) your limitations, work within them and you'll never know regret.

Don't forget the suitcase with the little trolley wheels to haul all that junk around in... My LRF (acquired just a couple years ago) goes to 400 yards or so. If it doesn't register in strange country, I get closer...

I zero for 200 (more or less), and remember the 8, 3, 2 rule. For my rifles, most will drop 7-8 inches plus or minus at 300 yards, 3X that at 400, and double the last figure thereafter. I don't do varmits, so on big game, this works - "close enough IS good enough!"

Then I shoot the damned thing under 200, if I can manage it.

Basically then, what Eramicus said.

Long range hunting is not for the woods stalker. I am 58 and I get my equipment to where ever I am going it's only an obstacle if you make it one

The sport is called hunting not shooting. Learn how to get closer.

I agree!

It took me a long time to learn that just because I can't/won't do something in the way of hunting and shooting it's no sign that you can't/shouldn't.

BCR

I'm sucked in, I'll comment some more.
Comments that bowhunters do it all the time. Lets just say I'm a bowhunter, over 100 big game kills with compound and recurve over the years. Never did get to a longbow or a stone head though that may happen eventually. But for harvest, if you think you just have to get closer to get one, you are a fool if you think you can do it every time. It simply won't happen. The numbers harvested by bow vs gun are skewed. It can be done, but I'm not dumb enough to grab a bow when I have 1-2 days and need to thin out 3-5 deer or so. I might get some or none with the bow. Simply because you have the same parameters, just because you are within bowrange doesnt' mean you should or could shoot. I still love bowhunting, but these last years I don't have or make the time I used to, and as such rarely grab a bow anymore. Take that however you need to. While I haven't taken a mature buck in over 5 years, I do HAVE to keep the herd in proper parameters and I do love the meat so we harvest. And it IS about the kill and meat for me, not just the hunt.

My standard reply is to the folks that must seperate and divide and are much "holier" than I am in hunting, how much closer do you want me to get? What are you using for a weapon? How close do you get? WTF is your point? Forcing your methods on me? Do you use a bow, or handgun, or is 100 yards close enough? Point being I can't draw the line otehr than being 200% sure of the kill, beyond that who cares really and why should you? I've passed on shots well under 10 yards because it wasn't a sure thing. I watch folks on TV make 30 yard shots on deer with bows all the time, that wouldn't happen here, the deer are gone before the arrow gets there. Speed of sound being about 3 times faster than a fast arrow. And if not gone, they certainly move.

Go define hunting, it means finding game and generally assumed after that shooting it. Doesn't put other parameters on it about what weapon(technically I could define it as finding game and if you decide to shoot it with a weapon and kill it you are murdering it...poor defenseless animal....)what distance etc... simply tells me you are searching for something that you will attempt to kill.

The thing beyond getting closer that I think we SHOULD look into though is performance testing... IE you pass a shooting test before you get a license. Having guided, I've seen more disasters from 100-200 yard shots than I have from ones fartehr out, granted 100-200 is much more common and shoudl have a higher screw up rate, but IMHO, any fool with a gun should be at least 99% at those distances. How folks can screw those shots up is beyond me, other than the fact they take shots they have no business taking and are not 200% sure of. The old mentality of I'm close enough now and if I dont' get lead in the air there isnt' any chance. I'm just now slowly breaking a nephew of that situation, WAIT for the perfect shot and then take that ONE perfect shot. He is much happier lately too.

And this isn't a dis on shorter range shooters, or choice of weapon, simply the point that you ahve to be 200% sure of the shot, and the end result is a dead animal. Beyond that to pick and choose is up to YOU, but not to be forced on ME.

Seperation is how we all die in this sport, seperation is what the antis want. They want the "deer hunters" to agree no need for the AR15, no need for this or that. And if we take this to the end, if all you want folks to do is 100-200 yards or so we really have no need for anything more powerful than the 30-30 or so and no need for things like scopes(damn sure no "sniper" rifles)

Look at the big picture here is all I ask. And then realize folks that ethically take longer shots, generally can shoot a better group at their distance than most can shoot at 200 or 300 yards. Have a better understanding of conditions related to shooting portion of the game and such. Thats where they prefer to spend their efforts.
And thankfully everyone doesn't like the same thing IMHO.

So all you do is hunt and never shoot? Hunting is to search for something and in the game fields once you find it most will shoot. The distance matters not. If you are going to define hunting by distance then at what distance does it cease to be hunting? Perhaps we should go back to Spears will that be close enough.
Why do those that can't condem those that can?

That last statement is not meant as bragging or condemning either, simply we would back your choice to the ends of the earth, what about just a bit of understanding and togetherness here.
JWP, sorry to hijack your quote....
Jeff

Spot on Jeff.... Hunting is personal experience and like you stated we have no problem how any one wishes to hunt, that is his buisness whether it be by bow, handgum or rifle and the distance that one is or is not competent at does not change the fact that it is hunting.

I like the 200% rule. Each of us has a different yardage under given conditions. Mine might be 400 yards. Yours might be 600 or 200. Here is the important piece...you better know what your limit is and not stretch it. That is the tricky part. Maybe you have worked real hard and feel you have "earned" that buck or bull that is just beyond your limits. Easy to say, tough to do, but you have to find a way to put it into your "200% zone". Also of note, your "200% zone" changes with conditions. For example, I am 200% confident to 400 yards under ideal conditions, but start messing with the conditions and my "200% zone" starts shrinking.

I think that most of the hard core shooters out there (and they know who they are) prolly know much better than the weekend warrior where their personal "200% zone" is.

I believe every good hunter should also be a long distance shooter to some degree. The fact is that we never can be absolutely sure that everything will work perfectly even at 50 yards. And it doesn't take many animals long to put distance between themselves and the shooter/hunter even wounded sometimes. Consequently the need to shoot long - even if we hope never to. And then- for those who still use the more traditional methods of rangefinding and judging wind, sometimes an error is made and one cannot know for certain whether a clean miss or wounding hit was made. What to do? Being able to shoot at distances and in wind can be useful - and ethical- if more shooting seems called for. The same idea applies to moving targets.

Rost495 said it well. He's had practice debating this one! :-)

Knowing your limitations is the key. Get out and shoot at longer ranges. If guys did this, they'd learn two things- first, it's easier than you might think if you have some basic gear. Second, it's a whole lot HARDER than the magazines, TV shows, and gunshop cowboys would have you believe!

Get out and do it... it's fun, it'll make you a far better shot at closer ranges, and you'll know for yourself what your limitations are.

Just my humble opinion.

That�s got to be the most ignorant statement ever!!! I took up long-range hunting to be a better all round hunter. It all depends where I�m hunting if I�m going in a area that the shots are long I�ll take a long range set up, if I�m going in to a area that only offers close shots I�ll take one of my sportier weight rifles.

Joe, exactly it's about having more options to choose from

The more options, the more better, as I see it. I think both getting close and shooting far are awesome. I love bowhunting, especially with my recurve. Yet at the same time, I think whacking a critter at 500+ yards is similarly cool. Hopefully one day I'll be good enough to give it a shot.

John you are spot on, Most would just crap if they new how much we had tied up into our equipment to do this right. Not only that the time we spend doing it and money it takes to practice and send rounds down range.

Lucky for me I don�t have to go anywhere to shoot. Off of this bench alone I can get to 630 yards.



And a little bit of the view from that bench I like to call it... THE DEAD ZONE.

I didn't post this to start a war between the long range clan and the short range only sorts.
Like I said, I've found the much closer shots, say 50-200 yds. on a running animal, particularly if ducking in and out of cover far harder to make than the standing 400-600 yd. shot on an undistrubed animal. That's assuming I've got all the time I need to range him, set up a nice solid shooting position and make a very accurate wind call.
I was interesting in how you get closer if you must.
I was interested in how you avoid having to make those running shots. Or, if you do, just how and under what circumstances you take them.
Just for the record, I've killed a few critters at 500 plus yds. I know what that's about. I still practice at the longer ranges. It is fun. It is valuable. There is always the chance that you won't have any other choice.
What I have learned is that I really don't have to have a bipod on my rifle to do them. I don't need a particularly heavy rifle either. But I do need a load that will expand at the range I intend to use it. I do find both the readily adfjustable elevation knob and the laser range finder very helpful. Certain retilces, like the duplex type can also be very useful for this. Especially when time is short.
All I meant to point out is that most of the animals I prefer to take, the four year old plus animals, in the places where I hunt, public land, don't seem to cooperate much when it comes to allowing me to shoot at them at say 400 or 500 yds.
Younger animals yes. But not the older ones.
So the question is, have you found this to be true ? What sort of shots do you find yourself having to take for such animals ? How do you you make them ? What equipment do you use ? E

For the guys that can do it, more power to them. And, there are guys that can do it, I admire them for it and say job well done.

But then there are the folks that back up for the sake of taking long shots. I refuse to use those fellers and the word sportsman in the same sentence.

I"ll even argue the backing up, though I don't personally do it. But if what you are doing is not challenging, IE its boring, but you have the capability to do it, why not.

Now that I've said I don't back up, I DO sometimes setup to where my chosen shot will be a mid range to long range shot by choice. I've no problem with it and once again, as long as its a given that you can make it, WTF difference does it really make?


E- your last post explains what I read past... How do I avoid a thick, shorter running shot? Pretty simple. I don't pull the trigger. I refused to pull the trigger on an appx 200 yard shot on a decent muley buck that was killed later on and pushed 200 score wise. Not that I care about score but I'll never be lucky enough to see one like that again. Why? Moving shot and I didn't have the skill. Here is where I"ll bet you most of the naysayers would have all kinds of lead flying and that part I DON"T call hunting. Its flinging and hoping due to the size of the animal. BS I say. While I can control a lot of variables in a longer shot, I cannot control movement very well of moving game, ducking, dodging, speed up, slow down, add to that me having to free hand support the gun and move it at the same time... Nope. Not taking that chance for me unless its really close and a gimme... OR if its wounded, thats a totally different story.

And I'll give you what I didn't read earlier, I agree a 200 yard moving shot in the brush would take much more practice and skill to be 200% sure of making it, than it would to learn a 500 yard relaxed still shot in decent wind and even fairly iffy wind conditions.

Jeff

Jeff-
With respect to the backer-upper;

You show me ONE phugging long-range guy that hasn't missed at some point or another. I don't care how good, and how controlled, ANIMALS move, bullets deflect. If backing up is what it takes to keep hunting from becoming "boring" and a real chore, then perhaps it's time to take up crochet and crosswords.

Back up!!! That I would never do, I set up were I can cover the most area. If a animal walk out at 10 yards I�d shoot it if it was a shooter, don�t really matter to me if its at 10 yards or at a 1000 yards if the conditions are perfect I�ll shoot.

I haven�t yet� Why are you getting so hot???

Ernest Hemingway

Show me a close range hunter that has never missed... What's your point assuming you have one

Point being there's more margin for error - that should be obvious for even the less-than-cerebral.

Point being there's more margin for error - that should be obvious for even the less-than-cerebral.

Seems to me there are two kinds of long range shooters;the one's who "know"they can hit,and the one's who are,to some degree,"guessing". The one's who guess should not shoot.The one's knowing they can hit (because they've done it many times before),understand their equipment,and have burned the rounds to verify,are justified in shooting.

The really good LR shooters know when conditions are not right,and will back off the shot if in doubt.This experience is acquired only with thousands of rounds annually; a couple of hundred does not cut it.200 rounds a year through centerfire is warm-up,and hardly qualifies as "practice" although it's better than nothing.....but not by much.

Heres what I know...for a fact.

I recently attended a sports show in Salt Lake City, mainly to apply for some permits. But, while strolling through the numerous booths, I came across 3 that were pushing long range hunting. All three were peddling LR rifles, etc. One was the best of the west booth, another was manned by that John Burns IRRC.

Anyway, supposedly these guys are the "best" in the business, and only "take shots they know they can make".

But, you know what was funny??? While watching their videos, I can assure you they absolutely DO NOT take "only perfect shots under perfect conditions". I saw numerous semi-domestic moppy looking sheep being shot for the purpose of long range shooting. Pretty crappy to say the least, as most of them were shot at ranges not necessary, like I said, they were pretty much domestic sheep. Just practice.

Even more entertaining was the fact that a good number were shot squarely in the ASS, buttocks, or whatever you want to call the south end of a north bound critter. Good thing most were domestic or those critters would have been running around with legs swinging in every direction.

At another booth...they listed the specifics of every shot, something like...673 yards, ~15 MPH wind, about 19.5 inches of drift...oh, and the DOE ANTLEOPE WAS WALKING.

WTF? I dont call that a "controlled" situation, shooting under ideal conditions, or any of the other crap peddled by the LR nut-jobs who call that hunting.

Thats a fargin' joke...and its equally as repulsive that anyone who would call themselves hunters, find it necessary even in the slightest...to be forced to shoot DOE ANTELOPE at 673 yards. That right there is a sorry excuse for a hunter that cant get a standing shot on an antelope doe in Wyoming at short to very modest range. Plain ridiculous and those jokers were using those animals as live "practice", nothing more. Matter of fact, I watched a video where that Burns guy, openly encouraged hunters to use doe and cow permits as practice.

Sorry John, but I happen to believe that big-game animals like antelope, deer, and elk (both bucks and does) are much more than a pop-up target for you to "practice" on. To guys like him, the animals are the means for them to try to sell their warped sense of big-game "hunting" so they can sell a few over-priced rifles and some dumb videos. They dont care about the sport, certainly dont care about the animals, and obviously only care about their bottom line.

I will not stoop to that level to take a stand for their "right" to shoot walking antelope at 700-1000 yards. I dont want to be lumped in with assclowns like that, and I surely wont be supporting that kind of crap, or having to defend their "style" of hunting. Never have, and never will. Matter of fact, I'd quit hunting and join PETA before I supported them...and thats a given.

I found no redeeming qualities from these "experts" of long range shooting/"hunting" at the SLC expo. Only further cemented in my mind that even the so-called experts rarely "practice" what they "preach"...its a sad joke.

We heard you the first time.. What about the margin of error for the guy that hasn't shot his rifle all year gets his rifle and bullets and hits the woods opening morning and misses a Deer at less than 50 yards.. Must be the rifle (happens ever year) so he brings it to me or someone else to check his scope to be sure that it is not off, because it was on last year..

Even for the less than cerebral it is apparent that long distance had nothing to do with the miss..

Again your point is???

I think there is more margin for error when hunters try to get to close, blows the stalk and ends up taking a shot at a running animal. And don't try to tell me that never happens. IMO taking a close shot at a skiddish animal can be as risky as taking a long shot at a clam one.

So Buzz what make you think they are experts or best in the business? Is it because they have a TV show? That doesn�t make them experts.

If an animal is walking I won�t shoot at it at 100 yards now would you? And if the wind is blowing I start chopping off yards in a hurry. I was with my boy last year and watched a nice buck at 700 yards walk out to 786 yards into heavy reprod, no wind at all but he just never gave the kid a broadside shot lots of off angle shots but not the shot we where looking for.

Jim Zumbo had a TV show and he claimed that he didn't know that an AR-15 had a legitimate sporting purpose and thought that game departments should ban them... TV show doesn't make you a qualified "expert"

For the most part it doesn�t matter much to me what others do, but when it comes to killing dumb animals I have little tolerance for people who disrespect the game and wound animals as a result. Prepare for the shot, be it with a bow or a firearm, then do your best to make a clean kill. If you�re not sure, take a pass.

The longest shot I have ever taken was on a bull elk at 350 yards. These days I am prepared to take shots out to 600 yards with my 7mm and .300 magnums, less with the others. I�ve shot running coyotes from a few yards to 400 yards but I�ve missed my share, too. As a result I�m more comfortable taking a long shot at unspooked game than I am a running deer or elk at 50 yards.

As to the �you can always get closer� argument my experience is that yes, you can � sometimes. Other times you cannot.

joecool, jwp...

Judging by the line-up of people looking at the videos and listening to the line of crap they were laying down....I'd say a good number were thinking they were "experts". I've even heard people on this board make reference to them...and brag them up.

But, for the record...did you guys happen to notice the "'s around the word EXPERTS, when I referenced them???

But, heres the deal. Those guys sell the equipment, sell the videos, and are getting more than plenty of face-time with the public. They like the attention and they definately pass themselves off as experts. I mean they put the range time in, have the right equipment, and apparently get plenty of "practice" on living critters...have wind-gauge, range finder, and target turrets...will travel.

Likely just as "qualified" as most anyone else that shoots long-range on big-game.

I think the problem is, you want to throw them under the bus because its easy to do that, make them look like the exception. However, I think what I saw at the show, and in the videos, is pretty much business as usual for about 95% of the LR crowd.

To the 5% that really do know their stuff, have the ability to refrain from what I witnessed on the videos, etc., you need better representation.

Like it or not, THOSE TYPE OF LR HUNTERS are representing YOUR style of hunting, not mine. Pretty sorry representation if you ask me, and exactly why I won't...and can't...defend them. Much like the way you have both trashed them with your replies.

Pretty easy to stereo-type when the shoe fits 95% involved....

Nothing personal...just the facts.

John Burns has caught so much flak on http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/ that he doesn't post there any more. His use of a BDC is not the best way to go. With a BDC how do you compenste for different alltitudes? There are other problems as well with his approach


I highly question your assertion that the "shoe fits 95%" of the true Long Range Hunters, it may be accurate for 95% of the wanta be's

Buzz you have to remember those guys are making a TV show the need that shot or they have no TV program. I'm not making a TV show so I don't need to take a bad shot.

That said I really don't care how anybody eles hunts as long as its legal and they are putting there best into it.

To answer your question and stay out of the "Can I hit Paris with my railroad gun from here?" arguement YES. Older animals did not get to be old by being stupid. Movement that makes a young animal just stare trying to figure out what they though they saw move will send an older one packing without hesitation.

The shots I sometimes have to make if I take them are hurry up and shoot without all the fiddling around getting set up.

If you have somehow attracted the attention of your game you better take a crack at it right now or it ain't going to be there by the time you get ready.

BCR

The moon must be closer, because you can see it right?

Yes, Jeff. I've done similar things. Had the best rack I've ever seen while hunting, in my scope, reticle tracking him the whole way as he bounded through the Ironwood. Never pulled the trigger because all I could see was the top 2 inches of his back, sometimes, and the top of his head.
I don't regret it. I've found his very distinctive tracks several times since then. I've watched a video of him, taken before the season from a helicopter, after his rack grew even bigger. How about 37 inches wide, about 24 inches high and 7-9 pts. on a side. On an animal that may well go over 300 lbs. on the hoof.
I don't know if he's still alive. But I know his genes are still present in that area. Would you believe I saw a picture of his great, great grandfather taken about 1940 from that same area ? I'm sure I tracked, and almost shot, one of his off spring a few years back.
Like I said, I have a tendency to get away from doing the long shots. That's because I've learned new stalking techniques over the years, and I've learned that animals like that simply don't stand around in the open and let you shoot at them. At least not where I hunt.
Can I make a long shot ? Oh, yeah. I still practice at those ranges. First of all, it's fun. Second, you never know when you might need that knowledge and skill.
I don't limit myself to any one method. I try to prepare for all of them. But I do stress the toughest shots, the running or quicker shots, as much as I can when I practice. E

I always love this sort of comment! First of all these folks announce a self-imposed limit of the range they'll take a shot.
Prudent indeed. A good man/woman knows their own limitations.
My question is why do they wish to IMPOSE their limitations on the rest of those who hunt?

If your limitation with your rifle/ammunition is 100, 150, 200 yds, or whatever that limitation is, so be it. Either live with it, or spend more time at the range honing your rifleman's skill;
purchase a more powerful cartridge, or both.

I've NEVER read or heard anyone who is making 400, 500, or 800 yd
shots suggest that practice isn't necessary, let alone is EASY.
Just the opposite. They've all suggested making a long range shot
REQUIRES practice. And, we all know that it is more difficult to make a 400 yd shot than it is a 325 yd shot! And yes, we also
know about the crosswind. Especially those of us hunting in the West like Wyoming where afternoon crosswinds often reach 20mph or more. Not to mention states like New Mexico, Arizona, or the
Eastern parts of Oregon and Washington.

If anyone is happy with limiting their hunting to 200 or 300 yds,
so be it. BUT, if you would like to possess the capability to take an animal at 450, 500, or further, you need to practice with your load in your firearm. Obviously, accuracy is a major
issue. Minute-of-barn won't cut it. Equally obvious, the greater
accuracy your rifle is capable of, AND, the greater accuracy YOU
can shoot your rifle is of the utmost relevence to making those
long range shots. And please practice BEFORE you attempt such a
shot on a game animal.

The rest of this nonsense in just that. NONSENSE. I have two
rifles set-up for what "I" consider "long range" FOR ME. That is,
both rifles are extremely capable of making one shot kills out to 500-600 yds. I assure you my choice of cartridges will probably amaze some, while others will immediately agree: 308 Win & 280 Rem (168 & 175 VLD & 168 VLD, respectively).

Others who wish to shoot further use 7mm and 300 magnums to humanely reach their intended game with killing shots. Whether that is 800 yds or over 1,000 yds away.

If that level of rifleman competitence doesn't interest you, NOBODY is suggesting you have to go there. Just stop your whining about those who have spent the time learning the capabilities of their cartridge and rifle, as well as improving their own capabilities so they can routinely make these shots and humanely dispatch the game they're hunting.

I"m to the point that anything on a TV show is a crock and I won't use/watch things they do generally.

I just had to watch best of the west the other day, I get sucked in at times. Specifically because I've done a LOT of long range target shooting. But of course see my sig line.... The first shot they made on a bull elk, was an irresponsible angle that I'd generally not even think of taking unless it was a really close shot and needed to take it or loose the chance... One has to draw the line somewhere and from what I've seen they have done more than one shot that is not what I'd call "right".

My longest shots to date have taken some time. Even had my buddy tell me on one at 802, you better shoot now... nope I wait for what I want, and if its there, fine, if its gone, oh well. The other one, something over 950 yards we decided to take a sighter shot due to the winds.... sighter hit a softball sized rock dead on, actually just under and blew dust off it, but plenty good. Animal started walking and never stopped.

Limitations. We all have them. One simply has to know theirs, and if they want to extend or decrease those.

I think you'll find that E is same book, different page/chapter. IE he practices long and to me thats good, the furhter you practice, the easier close shots become. AND if needed and conditions are correct, you can make a longer shot if you need to or even want to.

Choice is the issue here and its spread much wider than will you take a long shot. The long shot threads often seem like trolling to me....

While I"ve said that long shots are not impossible, IE it doesn't take someone "born" with the talent, it does take a lot of work, and IF you want to put in the time, effort and money to learn, thats great and who's business is it but yours as long as its legal.

Jeff

Steelhead

I could not agree with you more. Having a dangerous animal come at you with malicious intent has a wonderful way of concentrating attention on instinctive shooting. Or rattling you so you are incapable of immediate application of skill.

Randy

Hi fellas, New here, but as everybody else I have some of my own opinions.
It seems to me that the way you define your personal hunting strategies has a lot to do with the long term hunting background your used to.
As an example I'm born and raised in Northern Minnesota where cover is extremely thick and shots over 50 yards are rare. As a consequence of these hunting conditions, I'm comfortable with shooting at running deer in thick cover - it's almost like shooting a shotgun at winged targets. Rifle fit and proper optics are more important than caliber.
When I've hunted the west or alaska, 200 yards looks like it's half way to the moon, so as a result I tend to stalk fairly close and take good shots. I don't find stalking close in more open terrain to be difficult as the luxury of being able to see game at long range is a help to stalking them.
It would seem that western hunters who have hunted open country their whole lives would be much more comfortable with long range hunting.
Just a different view from my perspective.
Thanks - and good hunting

Welcome! Sometimes you have no choice of getting closer, read time and wide open tundra.... unless you can pancake yourself to about 6 inches tall....and are prepared to be soaking wet after a long crawl.

Not arguing, just saying sometimes close is not even in the deck of cards.

See my sig line...I"m open to both ends of distance and doesnt' bother me in the least.

Travelr47,

As you can probably tell from my handle, Longranger280, I approve of your choice of caliber. My longest kill, to date, was a matriarch doe at 415 yds with my 280 Rem. However, I have lots of practice with it out to 550 yds. A 280 is far more capable than a lot of people know IMO.