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I'm putting together a small presentation for a course I'm currently taking on Governor's and Raffle Permits for big-game in the West. Can somebody point me towards some credible sources of info? Google searches are coming up a little bit fruitless.

Thanks,

Tanner
For Oregon

Controlled hunt info

Raffle

G' luck w/ others ..

Tom
What do you want to know specifically? The tags generate a lot of money and controversy. If you want to talk to the owner of the bighorn auction permit here in CO to get a hunters perspective let me know and I'll get you in touch with him.
google "spider bull in Utah" or "Antelope Island mule deer hunt" and you'll get all the money & controversy you care to handle grin

Tuner,

I'm with Drummond; what info are you trying to get?

I know the guy that bought the Colorado Governors deer tag the last two years. If you have any specific questions, I'll ask him for you and PM you. I doubt he'd discuss stuff like that with a stranger.

Those tags go at auction and the amounts are tremendous (upwards of $350K)
Google Doyle Moss and Denny Austad. They're the main pimps in Utah, and no, it's not hunting. For starters they shoot animals on what is pretty much a game preserve, preseason, or better yet, on the winter range. Then you have the Moss Posse on every ridge, and the so-called hunter flies in, pulls the trigger, and mugs for the camera.

The Spider Bull is a prime example and you can't convince me that wasn't a pen raised bull. A 500" bull doesn't go unnoticed on public land in Utah.
I'm pretty well aware of Doyle Moss and his techniques, but I'm not looking to make a presentation solely about it. It will definitely be brought up, though, because that seems to be the direction some of these tags are headed. I know my hometown has about had enough of Mossback and the like.

Tanner
Wyo. has these Tanner, but I know little about them.. Except one of the local guides put the hurt on a small sheep hunting unit, buy getting his wealthy clients to buy a gov. permit.. They are good in any unit, so he really hurt a unit near my home..
Tanner,
Many states have these type of tags. I know many don't agree with them but they do provide $$$ for the state. I wish the funds were a bit more directly used though. For instance all the money from say a mule deer gov tag goes directly back to improving mule deer habitat or deer fencing along the highway or some other deer project instead of into the main fund.
What specific states are you looking at and what info are you still needing?
Originally Posted by 805
I wish the funds were a bit more directly used though. For instance all the money from say a mule deer gov tag goes directly back to improving mule deer habitat or deer fencing along the highway or some other deer project instead of into the main fund.


How do you know this doesn't happen in other states?
Tanner,

I know a fair bit about the Wyoming Governors tags.

For starters, theres already been some misinformation posted in regard to the units that are open in Wyoming. The Governors tags are NOT valid in units that offer under a certain number of sheep or moose tags, IIRC its at least 10. I'd have to look that up to be sure, but at any rate, there is a minimum number of public tags that must be offered before a Governors tag is valid in the unit.

In Wyoming, the tags are distributed to different sporting groups to Auction and/or raffle. Typically, sheep groups get the sheep tags, moose groups the moose tags, etc. Wyoming statuate allows the seller of the permits to keep 10% of the sale price. The remainder is given back to the State to fund on-th-ground projects.

The funds are kept in seperate "accounts" based on species. For instance the money raised by Governors Sheep tag sales are kept seperate from say the Governors Elk tag sales. There is Sheep, Moose, Deer, Elk, and all-wildlife "accounts". The all wildlife account is funded by each of the deer, elk, moose, and sheep accounts kicking in 10% to the all-wildlife account.

The sheep, moose, elk, deer, and all-wildlife each have a committee of 5 people that look over the grant proposals and decide whether to fund them.

The funds are distributed via grants to specifically fund research, projects, habitat improvements etc. specific to each animal. Some grant proposals ask for money from several of the accounts/committees (say a fence removal project in an area that has moose, elk, and deer present). The proposal may ask for money from the moose, elk, and deer committees. Each committee decides whether the project should be funded, partially funded, or not funded at all.

The Governors tag program in Wyoming typically funds around $500,000-$600,000 in wildlife projects.

The program is audited and every cent is accounted for.

Not all States are as diligent in the way the money is handled from the Governors tag sales.

If you want my opinion, I very reluctantly think that Governors tags have a place in Western States Game Management. They do raise a lot of money that is needed to fund research, projects, habitat, etc. However, these tags should be very tightly regulated in number, tightly audited, and there needs to be extensive State Government over-sight.

What I dislike about the tags is that its just another step in the privatizing of public resources. It also highly commercializes wildlife and hunting as well. Further, you're encouraging a system that rewards the Johnie-come-latelys with fat wallets to jump to the head of the line for premium tags.

Whats often forgotten is the undeniable fact that every big-game herd in the country has gotten to this point WITHOUT the fat-wallet crowd. The average, DIY, every day hunter has paid nearly all the freight thats brought back wildlife to the point where its at today.

IMO, theres too much credit given to the fat-wallet hunter when they buy a Governors tag. Conversely, there is not enough credit given to the average guys that paid the entire bill for wildlife for several decades before a Governors tag existed.
Buzz

Actual facts regarding the system does not lead to further hysteria and hype that is fun to read on a internet forum, thanks for nothing grin
$350,000 for a single tag would equal what, 700 Non-resident hunting tags at $500/each? That's a lot of cash going into the state coffers!
Sometimes the good guys do get rewarded. For one fella I know the Governor�s elk tag was a real good thing.

This guy runs a small sporting goods store. He does OK and he loves to hunt but he can�t afford expensive guided hunts for himself. He hunts DIY often on public land. He is first in line to sponsor any worthy cause. For years he has been very generous about donating prizes from his shop to RMEF, DU, trout unlimited, pheasants forever, etc. etc � you get the picture.

A couple years back he bought a raffle ticket for five bucks that turned out to be the winner in a statewide Governors elk tag drawing. He selected a unit that required many preference points and spent a handful of weekends driving across the state to hunt it - one of Colorado�s premier units. Eventually he got a real nice trophy bull. I think everyone that knows him was real happy for his success.
I think it is important to clarify how the tags are obtained ie Lottery/Raffle or Auction. Also, where did the tags originally come from, were they created for the drawing/auction or taken from the general pool.

There can be a lot of smoke and mirrors in this area. Often much of that smoke and mirrors comes from the group that gets to keep a portion of those funds for "administrative fees".

In short, there needs to be a lot of transparency and accountability.
Buzz, JR, Alamosa, thank you guys for the help on the topic. I've found a couple sources to stem from and should have a decent amount of info to present.

I appreciate your time.

Tanner
One question I've got that may be stupid is- How do these permits end up from being in the Governor's control into the hands of organizations for raffle/sale?

Tanner
In California for the 13 auction tags non-profits need to submit a request and proposal to the state to be able to auction the tag off.
Look up First Nation Kluane Dall Sheep Tag. Probably the best example of pay to play but if you can play my god what a good sheep you will get.

Sincerely,
Thomas
The general theory behind the so-called Governor's tags is that state lets a non-profit auction them off and the money returns to the state. Because the bidder writes his check to the non-profit, he sees a nice charitable contribution on his tax filings.

In many states, there are matching tags for raffle for each tag that is auctioned. That is how a few regular Joes get primo tags each year.
Can't wait untill the IRS taxes them the value of the tag based on auction prices/
tanner, remember...it is all about the money. Who cares if they are shooting bucks off the winter range after finding them with a helicopter. It raises money right?

LOL

Landowner tags and governor tags are what has ruined the west. Shutting down the deer season for 1-2 years would do a lot more for the deer herds than $100k, but then again, the state is not willing to lose money. And never mind the ranchers that get damage payments yet aren't required to let the public hunt their land in return.
Here is the elk taken on this years Governor's tag here in Wyoming.

The bull was killed on public ground during an open season. 2 1/2 mile packout in backpacks.

Grosses 395 and should net over 380.

7mm 180gr Berger VLD if anyone is interested. grin

[Linked Image]
Heck of a bull, but for that kind of cash you'd think he'd have found something well over 400".

Do they grow'em that big up there?

How much did the poor guy spend? wink
Originally Posted by dogcatcher223
tanner, remember...it is all about the money. Who cares if they are shooting bucks off the winter range after finding them with a helicopter. It raises money right?

LOL

Landowner tags and governor tags are what has ruined the west. Shutting down the deer season for 1-2 years would do a lot more for the deer herds than $100k, but then again, the state is not willing to lose money. And never mind the ranchers that get damage payments yet aren't required to let the public hunt their land in return.



Sorry, have to completely disagree.

The Governor's tag is for ONE animal of each species and generates more cash for habitat improvement than probably 1000 tags sold for each specie.

How can letting a rich dude kill one elk ruin hunting in the west?

Ridiculous and extremely short-sighted


Dogcatcher's argument holds a few valid points, based on what I've learned.

Tanner
Originally Posted by rcamuglia
Originally Posted by dogcatcher223
tanner, remember...it is all about the money. Who cares if they are shooting bucks off the winter range after finding them with a helicopter. It raises money right?

LOL

Landowner tags and governor tags are what has ruined the west. Shutting down the deer season for 1-2 years would do a lot more for the deer herds than $100k, but then again, the state is not willing to lose money. And never mind the ranchers that get damage payments yet aren't required to let the public hunt their land in return.



Sorry, have to completely disagree.

The Governor's tag is for ONE animal of each species and generates more cash for habitat improvement smile than probably 1000 tags sold for each specie.

How can letting a rich dude kill one elk ruin hunting in the west?

Ridiculous and extremely short-sighted




Are we going to have to have this argument again? grin
If you can even muster an intelligent one, of course.

LOL
When you get your numbers straight on how many tags are auctioned get back to me.
I wonder how the mule deer managed before the days of some rich guy shooting them off the winter range?

Ditch the governor's tag, and redo all the season dates, including cancelling the 4th buck season.
Originally Posted by SLM
When you get your numbers straight on how many tags are auctioned get back to me.



You might find this as interesting as I did.


Quote
Wyoming Game and Fish Commission Examines Impacts of Complimentary Licenses; Votes to Make No Changes

10/1/2012

CHEYENNE - At its September meeting in Casper, the Wyoming Game and Fish Commission voted to make no changes to the way commissioner complimentary licenses are allocated.

Each of Wyoming�s seven Game and Fish Commissioners can allocate up to eight complimentary hunting licenses annually for elk, deer, or antelope. The licenses must be donated to a nonprofit charitable organization, which must then auction or raffle the license to raise funds. The successful bidder or raffle winner designates the species, hunt area, and license type. Most holders of complimentary licenses choose to hunt in areas and during seasons where there is a high likelihood of harvesting a trophy animal.

To ensure that commissioner licenses are not having a biological impact on species in certain highly desirable hunt areas, the commission requested that Wyoming Game and Fish Department personnel conduct a study on allocation of these licenses and their potential impacts. The commission also discussed the issue of fairness concerning the allocation of these licenses in hard-to-draw limited quota areas.

The study, which looked at 10 years of data in high-demand hunt areas, was presented to the commission in January2012. The study found that, while there is potential for negative perceptions about fairness, there are no biological impacts in areas where commissioner complimentary licenses were most often allocated.

�Because many of these licenses go to certain high-demand areas every year, we wanted to make sure there were no adverse impacts to the species in those areas,� says WGF Commission President Aaron Clark. �In addition, we received strong support from the public and from our conservation partners to make no changes to the current system. As a whole, the commission feels good about how we are allocating these licenses and the funds they help raise for wildlife conservation.�

(Contact: Eric Keszler (307) 777-4594)




I would bet it's similar in all western states. Yes, not just one license is donated, but the cash coming in to fund habitat projects would not be there unless this is done.




This is from Colorado

Quote
8/22/2008
Division of Wildlife

Wildlife Projects Funded by Special Licenses




The Colorado Division of Wildlife (DOW) and eight non-profit wildlife conservation organizations have selected more than $480,000 in wildlife projects that will be funded this year with proceeds from the sale of special auction and raffle hunting licenses in Colorado.

Each year several special hunting licenses are auctioned or raffled by non-profit wildlife conservation organizations to raise funds for wildlife projects. These special hunting licenses provide hunters with the opportunity to hunt in many areas around the state. Because these tags offer incredible hunting opportunities, the auctions and raffles generate considerable interest and income for wildlife projects.

Raffles are held annually by Rocky Mountain Bighorn Society, Safari Club International, Ducks Unlimited, Mule Deer Foundation, Colorado Bowhunters Association, and the Colorado Wildlife Federation. Licenses are auctioned annually by Rocky Mountain Bighorn Society, Mule Deer Foundation, Colorado Mule Deer Association, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation and the Colorado Bowhunters Association.

Some of the auction and raffle projects funded this year include:

Rampart Range Bighorn Sheep Lungworm Treatment Study

The Rampart Range Bighorn Sheep Lungworm Treatment Study received $15,818 this year. This is the second year of funding for a long-term study on the effectiveness of two types of treatment for lungworm infection, a respiratory disease in bighorn sheep. Radio-collared ewes are split into three groups. One group gets an oral treatment. The second group gets injections. The third group, the control group, receives no treatment. Stool samples are collected from ewes to look for the presence of lungworm larvae to determine which (if any) treatment is most effective at reducing larval lungworm concentrations. Ewes are then monitored after they give birth to determine whether treating ewes during pregnancy improves lamb survival.

Pikes Peak Bighorn Sheep Population Estimation and Demographics

The Pikes Peak Bighorn Sheep Population Estimate and Demographics project received $46,468 in funding. This is the second year of funding for a study aimed at estimating population size and monitoring movements and survival of rocky mountain bighorn on Pikes Peak. In 2007, biologists estimated that the bighorn sheep population on Pikes Peak and surrounding areas was about 180 animals. Preliminary results indicate that individuals within the Pikes Peak sheep herd follow the same seasonal dispersal and regrouping patterns year after year. Members split into groups on a somewhat predictable schedule with the same individuals forming sub-herds each year.

Black Ridge Desert Bighorn Sheep Population Assessment

The Black Ridge Desert Bighorn Sheep Population Assessment and Monitoring project is a multi-year project intended to learn about the Black Ridge desert bighorn sheep herd near the Colorado National Monument. The assessment received $30,000 in funding. The project looks at factors including survival, lamb production and recruitment, causes of mortality, range and interaction with other herds. Funding will be used for capture of animals for radio-collaring, data analysis, and a technician to perform field work. The project has additional funding from the DOW, Rocky Mountain Bighorn Society and the Foundation for North American Wild Sheep.

Poudre River Bighorn Sheep Population Estimate & Lamb Recruitment Study

The Poudre River Bighorn Sheep Population Estimate and Recruitment Study received $17,000. The project is in the fourth year of evaluating lamb recruitment, lamb survival and herd population size and performance. Beginning in January 2005, DOW biologists radio-collared a sample of ewes in the upper and lower Poudre Canyon. Data from these radio collared animals allow wildlife managers to estimate annual adult ewe survival, document seasonal movements, locate lambing grounds and monitor the presence and survival of lambs. Data gathered to date suggest a declining population canyon-wide, with pneumonia implicated in all recovered lamb mortalities from the lower canyon. In 2008, a nutritional, mineral and antibiotic treatment was applied to a small group of ewes in the lower canyon in hopes of improving lamb recruitment.

Georgetown Bighorn Sheep Range, Population and Survival Estimation

In 2006, DOW initiated a study utilizing radio collars to estimate population and survival for adult ewes and rams in the Georgetown bighorn sheep herd. These population parameters have been used, along with data from annual coordinated counts, to produce a population model similar to those used to guide the management of deer and elk in Colorado. This population model has proven useful in the management of the Georgetown herd and allows DOW to continue to estimate the size of the bighorn population beyond this study. The Georgetown study has also provided information on sheep movement, range, distribution, habitat use, and lamb dynamics. The focus of the study will shift in 2009 towards collecting more detailed and precise spatial information which is needed to mitigate the effects of human development and recreation in the area. The Georgetown Bighorn Sheep project received $46,630 in auction and raffle funding.

Flattops Moose Transplant Project

The goal of the Flattops Moose Transplant Project is to establish a self-sustaining, breeding moose population on the Flattops east of Meeker. Plans are being made to transplant moose from northern Utah to the Flattops. The initial project goals will include documenting seasonal movements, seasonal use areas and survival rates of translocated animals and documenting production and recruitment rates of female moose translocated to the Flattops. The project received $105,000 in auction and raffle funding and will result in an additional moose population in western Colorado.

Radium Habitat Improvement Project

The Radium Habitat Improvement Project received $10,000 this year. The primary objective of the project is to improve winter range for a variety of species along the Colorado River corridor in the Radium basin. Work includes reduction of pinyon-juniper encroachment, increasing of plant species diversity and vigor, increasing carrying capacity of habitat for deer and elk and work to recharge old water springs in the area.

The Radium Habitat Project partners have been working on habitat improvements in the area since 2001, conducting more than $100,000 in habitat improvements so far. This year's auction and raffle funds will be used in conjunction with funds from the Colorado Mule Deer Foundation and the Rocky Mountain Bighorn Society, and labor from the Colorado Youth Corp and Mule Deer Foundation. A prescribed fire and habitat manipulation plan is in place through 2017 in conjunction with the Bureau of Land Management, US Forest Service, DOW, Colorado State Forest Service and area land owners.

Basalt Lucksinger Fields Project


The Lucksinger Fields Project on the Basalt State Wildlife Area is designed to improve winter range habitat for deer and elk in the Roaring Fork Valley. These former hay meadows are being replanted and rehabilitated to provide beneficial habitat for big game and other species. The Roaring Fork Valley has rapidly developed over the past two decades and enhancing these fields will provided needed winter range. The project was provided $41,060 from auction and raffle funds.

HD Mountains Mule Deer Responses to Energy Development

Energy development in Southwest Colorado is increasing on mule deer winter range. A long-term research project in the HD Mountains has two primary objectives: to monitor mule deer behavioral and population responses to energy development; and to design and evaluate best management practices and mitigations in response to natural gas development. The HD project received $27,916 in auction and raffle funding and is a cooperative effort between the DOW, the Southern Ute Indian Tribe, the US Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management. Approximately 140 mule deer have been captured and fitted with radio telemetry collars since 2004. VHF and GPS radio-telemetry collars allow biologists to evaluate deer movement and survival in areas prior to, during, and after energy development. Body condition of captured animals is measured in development and control areas.

Age Distribution of Hunter-Harvested Mule Deer Bucks

Because mule deer management strategies vary throughout Colorado, a study is examining management strategies and how they affect the age distribution of harvested bucks in three specific areas: the Gunnison Basin, the Uncompahgre Plateau, and the southern San Luis Valley. The study started in 2007 with a sampling of hunters in Game Management Units 54, 61, 62, 80 and 81. Hunters received letters requesting that they send in a tooth from harvested bucks. The teeth were examined at a laboratory in Montana to determine exact animal ages. The study will continue through the 2009 hunting seasons. The Age Distribution study received $13,000 in auction and raffle funding. Biologists are interested in evaluating whether there is an optimum buck-to-doe ratio which can maximize both hunt quality and hunter opportunity.

Light Hill Habitat Improvement Project

The Light Hill project will treat 537 acres of over-mature mountain shrub and pinyon-juniper on Light Hill in the Aspen area. The project, which received $25,000 in auction and raffle funding this year, is occurring on public land managed by the BLM. The thick and aged plants are difficult for wildlife to utilize and provide less forage for wintering big game animals.
With increasing development in the Roaring Fork Valley, big game winter range is extremely limited. Increasing the production and carrying capacity of existing winter range is the best alternative to provide for dwindling big game winter range. Providing quality winter range for deer and elk not only feeds the animals but helps keep them off nearby roads and private lands where they can cause crop and fence damage.

Organizations that auction or raffle licenses help rank and select projects funded. The organizations provide a majority of the auction or raffle proceeds to fund the wildlife projects. Some funds may be used by the wildlife conservation organizations to pay auction and raffle administrative costs and also to fund wildlife projects of the non-profit organization's choosing.



Here's one from Californistan:


Quote

Hunters and Wildlife Both Win With Big Game Fund-Raising


cdfgnews.wordpress.com/tag/fund-raising-tags



Fish and Game Code, section 4334 requires the proceeds from the sale of these tags to be returned to CDFW to fund programs that benefit bighorn sheep, deer, elk and pronghorn antelope. In last year�s auctions, tags for hunting two bighorn sheep, one pronghorn antelope, two elk and eight deer raised more than $385,000 for the research and management of these wildlife species.



13 tags raised almost 400,000 dollars

interestingly Antelope Island (a state park, not under DWS control) auctioned off 2 deer and 2 sheep tags last year and 2 deer and 1 sheep tag this year, netting almost $600,000 for the island ($380,000 of it this year).

they're gonna hit $1M with less than 10 tags.

also interesting, the same guy bought a deer tag in both years -- he "only" had to pay $100,000 last year but had to pay $210,000-ish this year)
The way it was explained to me by a very credible and helpful source was that because, in the case of Colorado anyways, the DNR is operating at a deficit, and is being forced to make budget cuts. The funds raised by Auction/Raffle/Governor's licenses are therefore the only way that conservation and research projects get funded.

This was explained to me after I asked the question, "Couldn't Colorado raise resident hunting license prices slightly, and do away with the Gov' tags?" The idea would work if not for the budget deficit, but it is what it is. Until the deficit is dealt away, there aren't many other options to fund needed projects.

That being said, I think that Governor's tag holders should be subject to the same season dates as hunters with regular tags, and the armies of spotters and rumors of helicopter flyovers are despicable. If I needed 12 people and a Huey to help me find a big buck in Colorado, I'd probably quit right then and there.

Tanner
Originally Posted by dogcatcher223
I wonder how the mule deer managed before the days of some rich guy shooting them off the winter range?

Ditch the governor's tag, and redo all the season dates, including cancelling the 4th buck season.


Drew, I completely agree that in Colorado, closing 4th season for at least a year or 2 would be incredibly beneficial. Especially in our areas.

Tanner
ironically, they never had a 4th buck season until the numbers were on the downhill slide...Instead of implementing a strategy to help the deer, they started hunting them during rut. I wonder how the elk would do if they started shooting them in the rut with rifles too?

I hate cronyism, thus I strongly dislike governor's tags. Pay your standard fees and line up with the other serfs hoping for a tag.
Originally Posted by Tanner
The way it was explained to me by a very credible and helpful source was that because, in the case of Colorado anyways, the DNR is operating at a deficit, and is being forced to make budget cuts. The funds raised by Auction/Raffle/Governor's licenses are therefore the only way that conservation and research projects get funded.

This was explained to me after I asked the question, "Couldn't Colorado raise resident hunting license prices slightly, and do away with the Gov' tags?" The idea would work if not for the budget deficit, but it is what it is. Until the deficit is dealt away, there aren't many other options to fund needed projects.

That being said, I think that Governor's tag holders should be subject to the same season dates as hunters with regular tags, and the armies of spotters and rumors of helicopter flyovers are despicable. If I needed 12 people and a Huey to help me find a big buck in Colorado, I'd probably quit right then and there.

Tanner



Take Utah for example and Utahlefty's quote. To raise the same kind of money they did with the auctioned tags, they'd have to issue enough general season tags to wipe out every big game animal in the state.

Then there would be nothing left to manage.

Maybe states should take a better look at the economic impacts of hunting and recreation in their state and realize they should better fund their Fish and Game Departments. Research is vital, but so is the economic impact of tens of thousands of hunters taking to the field each fall.

Keep stripping that away for the short terms gains of those with deep pockets and you don't have a sustainable situation, rural communities suffer and the state will suffer.

It's far more complicated than just the $100-$400K those tags raise.

If you don't have enough big game to let tens of thousands of hunters to take to the field, you can't let tens of thousands take to the field.

It takes a lot of time to grow big game numbers; it doesn't happen overnight. Habitat has to be improved to grow big game. It takes time and money to improve habitat. The money has to come from somewhere and I think that game departments must feel it must come from the folks who benefit and use the resource.

But you're right about one thing, I pay plenty of taxes and most gets flushed down the toilet. I would love to have a big percentage of what I pay to to actually doing something like we're talking about instead.
Unfortunately these days I think the Governor/auction tags are a necessary evil.

I really don't want Game &Fish money coming out of or into the general fund.
You think they're an "evil" because of jealousy and your perception of "fairness"

Let the wealthy dude shoot a monster and fund our big game numbers. I couldn't care less as long as it works for us with more animals which in turn leads to more available tags.

If they do not allocate more and more tags towards auction/special drawings I am fine with the NM auction tags, as long as ALL money is spent on improving the herds. My problem is if you look at most states the number of tags keeps increasing. ( think Hunt' Expo)

If you really want to raise money, put a cash value on LO authorizations with that tax/fee going to GF.
Check the number of tags Utah allocates to the Hunt Expo ran by SFW. What a [bleep] joke and talk about a slippery slope! Those bastards can't even begin to give an accounting of where the funds go!
Originally Posted by rcamuglia
You think they're an "evil" because of jealousy and your perception of "fairness"

Let the wealthy dude shoot a monster and fund our big game numbers. I couldn't care less as long as it works for us with more animals which in turn leads to more available tags.



That's a short yet comfy road back to being serfs, I suppose?

I'd like to see the financials, public land acquisition plan, and flowchart, that leads to more game and more tags...

From what I've seen materialize, it leads to the big check boys getting to legally poach, whilst the serfs get to hope for a lucky ticket to join the club exactly once, or hunt the scraps during the seasons established by decades of sound game management...
Originally Posted by MattMan
Originally Posted by rcamuglia
You think they're an "evil" because of jealousy and your perception of "fairness"

Let the wealthy dude shoot a monster and fund our big game numbers. I couldn't care less as long as it works for us with more animals which in turn leads to more available tags.



That's a short yet comfy road back to being serfs, I suppose?

I'd like to see the financials, public land acquisition plan, and flowchart, that leads to more game and more tags...

From what I've seen materialize, it leads to the big check boys getting to legally poach, whilst the serfs get to hope for a lucky ticket to join the club exactly once, or hunt the scraps during the seasons established by decades of sound game management...


Legally poach? If it's legal it's not poaching. It might not be fair chase and it might not be "ethical" but if you want to make an argument against these tags at least make sense.
Originally Posted by huntsonora


Legally poach? If it's legal it's not poaching. It might not be fair chase and it might not be "ethical" but if you want to make an argument against these tags at least make sense.


It was a loose analogy to being granted permission to hunt 365 days a year regardless of established seasons... which is what poachers do. If you can't make that simple mental connection, I'm sorry.
Originally Posted by MattMan
Originally Posted by huntsonora


Legally poach? If it's legal it's not poaching. It might not be fair chase and it might not be "ethical" but if you want to make an argument against these tags at least make sense.


It was a loose analogy to being granted permission to hunt 365 days a year regardless of established seasons... which is what poachers do. If you can't make that simple mental connection, I'm sorry.


If they have the governors tag and they can hunt 365 days a year then that is an established "season" for that particular tag. The guys that draw the raffle tags get the same season as the auction tags in most cases. In fact, the only instance where I don't think they get the exact dates is on Antelope Island in Utah and they hunt the week after the auction tag hunter.

Here in CO the season is not 365 days a year for governors tag holders. I am all for having them start when the first season opens and ending when the last season is over regardless of weapon. We all have ideas to improve the system but just coming out and calling it "legal poaching" is ridiculous.

I see people do things on every tag available thats illegal and or unethical. Its a problem with every tag during every season all across the west and isn't limited to a few auction or raffle tags. I'm sorry that you cannot make that "simple mental connection".
Originally Posted by GreatWaputi
Check the number of tags Utah allocates to the Hunt Expo ran by SFW. What a [bleep] joke and talk about a slippery slope! Those bastards can't even begin to give an accounting of where the funds go!




[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]
Here's a complete list of where the funds go.


http://www.sfw.net/data/CP_Annual%20Report_FY12.pdf
Originally Posted by rcamuglia
Originally Posted by GreatWaputi
Check the number of tags Utah allocates to the Hunt Expo ran by SFW. What a [bleep] joke and talk about a slippery slope! Those bastards can't even begin to give an accounting of where the funds go!




[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]


Laffin', I love the second sentence. I'm sure glad Espinoza and crew got beat down on their NM tag grab.

Before it comes up. I am not against limited auction/raffle tags, I am against everything SFW, but you already knew that.
I would rather take the total revenue generated in the last year by raffles and auction tags, divide it by the total number of big game tags issued by the state, and have that amount added to each tag sold. It would not be a large increase.

I am for a flat tax as well.
Originally Posted by 30338
I would rather take the total revenue generated in the last year by raffles and auction tags, divide it by the total number of big game tags issued by the state, and have that amount added to each tag sold. It would not be a large increase.

I am for a flat tax as well.



It's really not too bad if you look at it but may be enough to stop many from applying. It would increase the cost of some tags by 50%

Total Big Game tags issued in Utah: 100,626
Total Conservation Permit Revenue: 3,148,882 (on 316 tags)

It would necessitate an increase on each tag issued of $31.29


Then when you see that 316 tags are .3% of all tags issued, it makes no sense to raise the price on every general season tag when you can simply have 316 rich dudes (probably less) fund most of the conservation projects in the state
Originally Posted by rcamuglia
Then when you see that 316 tags are .3% of all tags issued, it makes no sense to raise the price on every general season tag when you can simply have 316 rich dudes (probably less) fund most of the conservation projects in the state


But...but....it's just not fair whistle
Class warfare shhit trickles down from the Demoncats even to our sport.

Sad.
Originally Posted by 30338
I would rather take the total revenue generated in the last year by raffles and auction tags, divide it by the total number of big game tags issued by the state, and have that amount added to each tag sold. It would not be a large increase.

I am for a flat tax as well.


As much as at pisses me off to agree with rc', grin this is not a good idea.
Next step is to have the Bust in your entry

LOL
Laffin' ,NEVER!! Keep drinking.

[Linked Image]
You're on the right path of thinking. I think there may be an inkling of hope for you to emerge from the depths of shortsightedness and blossom into self actualization
If you think I'm thinking right, I'm driving off the Rio Puerco bridge tomorrow.
Before you do, let's call some coyotes at least laugh
Only if you promise not to talk.. grin

Originally Posted by rcamuglia
Originally Posted by 30338
I would rather take the total revenue generated in the last year by raffles and auction tags, divide it by the total number of big game tags issued by the state, and have that amount added to each tag sold. It would not be a large increase.

I am for a flat tax as well.



It's really not too bad if you look at it but may be enough to stop many from applying. It would increase the cost of some tags by 50%

Total Big Game tags issued in Utah: 100,626
Total Conservation Permit Revenue: 3,148,882 (on 316 tags)

It would necessitate an increase on each tag issued of $31.29




Curious if you know the breakdown of the 316 tags that were raffled versus sold to highest bidder? Or were they all auction type tags?
No idea.
2013 Utah budget for DWR is $78,580,924. In 2010 it was $67,721,571. If the 2010 budget had grown by 4% each year the budget in 2013 would have been just over $3,000,000 lower. It actually grew at 5%. My experience is that bureaucracies will grow at the max rate they can increase revenues.

Auction off every tag in Utah for all I care, I am just saying that if you feed the bureaucracies more money, they will start more "critical" programs and grow more bureaucrats. I view wildlife as a public resource. It should be equal opportunity for all Americans in regards to pricing and tag accessibility.

If the rich want to buy game farm animals, travel to exotic places, eat at expensive restaurants, buy nice cars, custom rifles, euro scopes, it matters not to me in the least. Happy for them. I just don't think they should be able to line up for preference for a public resource under the guise of benefitting wildlife. There are other ways to balance budgets of agencies who have trouble controlling their own growth. Your mileage obviously varies.
Originally Posted by 30338
If the rich want to buy game farm animals, travel to exotic places, eat at expensive restaurants, buy nice cars, custom rifles, euro scopes, it matters not to me in the least. Happy for them. I just don't think they should be able to line up for preference for a public resource under the guise of benefitting wildlife.


Yup. If they want to buy a bull they can just fork over 15K for a private land hunt. I'd rather pay an extra $5-10 per tag and have a level playing field.

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID5/21384.html#.UpEAIycf4bM
Originally Posted by rcamuglia
Heck of a bull, but for that kind of cash you'd think he'd have found something well over 400".

Do they grow'em that big up there?

How much did the poor guy spend? wink


Real 400" bulls are pretty scarce here in Wyoming. On public ground during an open season that bull is a shooter unless a guy is willing to eat the tag.

Our bulls have a pretty hard life with the cold and predators. They just don't get as big, on average, as some of the monsters from Arizona or New Mexico.

I believe the tag was a gift from a friend.
Quote
I view wildlife as a public resource. It should be equal opportunity for all Americans in regards to pricing and tag accessibility


Thought I'd stay out of this one, but can't help myself. I agree with the above.

Oregon was a bit late jumping into the auction tag business. Prior to that, I was rather proud that Dupont/Rockefeller chances of taking trophy game were the same as mine here. Not a level playing field anymore though.

Similarly, our sheep/goat numbers are such that a successful applicant only scores one in a lifetime. I've been trying since 1974, and time is running out. No preference point system for sheep and goats. Bidders can score how ever many the pocket book can bear.

We also have some statewide raffle tags available, but I've never found raffles to be much of an investment. The auction/raffle hunts generated $542,601 for Oregon in 2013. There were a total of 364,555 applications for big game tags issued during 2013.

I'd gladly chip in an additional $1.45 with each of my applications if we could relevel the playing field.

Just my thoughts,
Texas has a lottery system for a bighorn sheep tag each year. I think it's $10 per ticket now and open to anyone. If you win you not only get the sheep tag but taxidermy for it. They throw in a guided hunt on some of the state WMA's for mule deer, whitetail deer, and a prongorn all for one winner.

This was last years winner for a $10 ticket.

[Linked Image]
Thanks a lot Nathan......now my odds are 1/2,100,000 of getting my tag......
If one thing is certain, it's that government agencies will continue to spend more and more, and never less. So, once these "tags" become "necessary", they'll never go away or decrease. Only increase.

I guide (fishing) guys who buy these tags on a regular basis. They have more money than they know what to do with, and have zero qualm of dropping big bucks for these tags. And, they'd pay more than what they are currently paying. I have 4 of them on my boat last year at the same time, and the conversations were interesting, to say the last.

It's a new era of hunting. It's all about status and those who have, looking down and expecting an advantage over those who don't.

I don't like where hunting is going. It should remain affordable and accessible for all.
Originally Posted by JGRaider
Thanks a lot Nathan......now my odds are 1/2,100,000 of getting my tag......


Well if it makes you feel any better I am ineligible to enter.
Originally Posted by Calvin
If one thing is certain, it's that government agencies will continue to spend more and more, and never less. So, once these "tags" become "necessary", they'll never go away or decrease. Only increase.

I guide (fishing) guys who buy these tags on a regular basis. They have more money than they know what to do with, and have zero qualm of dropping big bucks for these tags. And, they'd pay more than what they are currently paying. I have 4 of them on my boat last year at the same time, and the conversations were interesting, to say the last.

It's a new era of hunting. It's all about status and those who have, looking down and expecting an advantage over those who don't.

I don't like where hunting is going. It should remain affordable and accessible for all.


+100. Well stated.
Originally Posted by Calvin
If one thing is certain, it's that government agencies will continue to spend more and more, and never less. So, once these "tags" become "necessary", they'll never go away or decrease. Only increase.

It's a new era of hunting. It's all about status and those who have, looking down and expecting an advantage over those who don't.

I don't like where hunting is going. It should remain affordable and accessible for all.


Calvin,

I agree with you 100% that hunting should remain affordable and accessible for all. I think a more accurate statement would be "affordable to most", but most certainly the wildlife should remain accessible to all (consumptive and/or nonconsumptive).

The one portion of your post worth some discussion is the part about the government agencies continuing to spend more and more and not less.

I was wondering how many businesses are spending less on operating cost now than they were 5-10-20 years ago? It seems a bit unfair to expect a G&F agency to spend less to operate when nearly everything they do costs more.

Its also fair to note that the various G&F agencies are saddled with management, education, land acquisition, feeding programs, fish stocking, etc. etc. etc.

All these programs are demands that either the State or the Sportsmen have made of the G&F departments and they all cost money...a lot of money. Management isnt free, trucks arent free, fuel isnt free,...etc.

I think the view that needs to change is that the license fees and operating costs need to be viewed as less of a "cost" and more as an "investment" into wildlife and the economy. Wildlife is a huge economic driver in most every state, and even more so in the Western States and Alaska for sure.

For example, my home state of Wyoming, our game and fish expenditures are about 71-73 million annually. The direct economic impact is 1.1 billion. Thats a pretty fair rate of return on an investment.

I think instead of hamstringing the G&F budgets and asking them to do more with less, we look to some of the people that profit from wildlife for some financial support. Ever since game management started, Sportsmen have payed all the freight. With costs increasing the only real option the G&F agencies have had in the past is to either:

1. Raise license fees on either Resident or mainly Non-Resident hunters. I think most states are nearing the point they cant charge much more or NR are going to start staying home. You can only dip so much water from the same well before it dries up.

2. Beg the State Legislature for general fund money.

IMO, the only way we're going to keep hunting accessible and affordable to all, is to demand that those that profit from wildlife(remember 1.1 billion in direct economic value), help us pay the bills.

If we dont find some alternative long-term funding sources, the G&F agencies are going to have to cut programs. We simply can not expect the G&F agencies to do more with less. If we want to continue to have the great opportunities we have, and increase opportunity, we have to find a way to come up with additional funding.

I can say that Wyoming has a very active alliance of Sportsmen Groups that are doing just that. We also have a receptive Governor that understands the economic and social value of wildlife.
Colorado Parks and Wildlife is in the process of shedding $10 million per year for the next 5 years just on the wildlife side. There will be some revenue increases as well, but the goal is to shed $10 million. So, that might not be the norm, but it is at least one example of a large agency that is downsizing, for now.
Originally Posted by exbiologist
Colorado Parks and Wildlife is in the process of shedding $10 million per year for the next 5 years just on the wildlife side. There will be some revenue increases as well, but the goal is to shed $10 million. So, that might not be the norm, but it is at least one example of a large agency that is downsizing, for now.


Will this mean less tags?
Originally Posted by Mauser_Hunter
Originally Posted by exbiologist
Colorado Parks and Wildlife is in the process of shedding $10 million per year for the next 5 years just on the wildlife side. There will be some revenue increases as well, but the goal is to shed $10 million. So, that might not be the norm, but it is at least one example of a large agency that is downsizing, for now.


Will this mean less tags?


Likely not. It just means that Governor's Tags are going to become more and more necessary to fund projects that will otherwise go unfunded.

Tanner
Either that or some programs are just flat going to be cut...
Originally Posted by exbiologist
Colorado Parks and Wildlife is in the process of shedding $10 million per year for the next 5 years just on the wildlife side. There will be some revenue increases as well, but the goal is to shed $10 million. So, that might not be the norm, but it is at least one example of a large agency that is downsizing, for now.


About damn time
We'll see.
Originally Posted by starsky
Originally Posted by exbiologist
Colorado Parks and Wildlife is in the process of shedding $10 million per year for the next 5 years just on the wildlife side. There will be some revenue increases as well, but the goal is to shed $10 million. So, that might not be the norm, but it is at least one example of a large agency that is downsizing, for now.


About damn time


I agree! Let's hope they do away with that awful BGAP program!
If anyone thinks that the Parks and Wildlife budget is frozen and that they are cutting $10 million per year from it each and every year for the next five years probably they need to make me an offer for my ocean front property in AZ.

It reminds me of proposing a cut to food stamps and the whack nuts start saying it is going to make 20 million Americans starve to death. If the BGAP program goes away as a result of no auction tags, so be it. Not a fan of the 1% getting first crack at a public resource just because they can pay $200,000 for a sheep tag.

I would go along with raffle tags for additional fund raising capped at 10 tickets each. I imagine that would raise plenty of funds and would not grant privilege based on huge wealth.

Heckuva mule deer buck pic you posted by the way. Really nice.
Kurt, I will make the first offer on your AZ beach front home, and offer up my private access Marco Polo hunting lease in Eagle as trade bait.

Tanner
If you let me shoot a cull Polo, I can get you a nice suite on the non ocean side. Think about it and let me know.
Originally Posted by 30338

I would go along with raffle tags for additional fund raising capped at 10 tickets each. I imagine that would raise plenty of funds and would not grant privilege based on huge wealth.



There are already gov raffle tags available for all the species that a auction tag is given for. Max of 25 tickets per raffle. Sheep, goat, elk, deer, moose, lope.



Drop the price of those raffle coupons and you would sell more.
Oh please, U can afford the $25
One ticket is a waste of time. Your max is 25. Once again the big money guys have the best odds. I cannot afford $625 to gamble on raffle tags.

The funny part is, the rich guys like the higher prices because it keeps the sales volume down which increases their odds. Sell those babies for $5 and you would sell 100x more tickets.
You're talking out your ass, most ticket orders I process are for 2 tickets, either one sheep and one goat or 2 sheep. There maybe 10 total orders all year for max sheep tickets. We sell a lot of tickets, a lot of people have a chance.
Originally Posted by 30338
If anyone thinks that the Parks and Wildlife budget is frozen and that they are cutting $10 million per year from it each and every year for the next five years probably they need to make me an offer for my ocean front property in AZ.

It reminds me of proposing a cut to food stamps and the whack nuts start saying it is going to make 20 million Americans starve to death. If the BGAP program goes away as a result of no auction tags, so be it. Not a fan of the 1% getting first crack at a public resource just because they can pay $200,000 for a sheep tag.

I would go along with raffle tags for additional fund raising capped at 10 tickets each. I imagine that would raise plenty of funds and would not grant privilege based on huge wealth.

Heckuva mule deer buck pic you posted by the way. Really nice.


Auction tags or no auction tags, BGAP needs to just go away. It is nothing more than an entitlement program for hunters and will never be able to sustain itself. It will always bleed money that could be better used in other areas

Originally Posted by huntsonora
Originally Posted by 30338
If anyone thinks that the Parks and Wildlife budget is frozen and that they are cutting $10 million per year from it each and every year for the next five years probably they need to make me an offer for my ocean front property in AZ.

It reminds me of proposing a cut to food stamps and the whack nuts start saying it is going to make 20 million Americans starve to death. If the BGAP program goes away as a result of no auction tags, so be it. Not a fan of the 1% getting first crack at a public resource just because they can pay $200,000 for a sheep tag.

I would go along with raffle tags for additional fund raising capped at 10 tickets each. I imagine that would raise plenty of funds and would not grant privilege based on huge wealth.

Heckuva mule deer buck pic you posted by the way. Really nice.


Auction tags or no auction tags, BGAP needs to just go away. It is nothing more than an entitlement program for hunters and will never be able to sustain itself. It will always bleed money that could be better used in other areas



Says the guide and outfitter! Scared of the leasing competition?

I've never seen anything that indicates any raffle or auction money has ever gone to BGAP.
Originally Posted by dogcatcher223
One ticket is a waste of time. Your max is 25. Once again the big money guys have the best odds. I cannot afford $625 to gamble on raffle tags.

The funny part is, the rich guys like the higher prices because it keeps the sales volume down which increases their odds. Sell those babies for $5 and you would sell 100x more tickets.


Dogcatcher- I think you are wrong that one ticket is not a waste of time. No tickets and compalining when you don't win is a waste of time. I know several folks have won these raffles on only one chance. I've won several raffles and have never purchased max tickets in any of them. If money was not an issue I always buy max just to donate and have a chance at an awesome hunt.

Buying max tickets does help ones odds but really not that much when you are talking about the sheep raffle

Baseed on estimated ticket sales of bighorn this year of 2500.
25 tickets your odds are 1.0%
10 tickets odds decrease to .4%
1 ticket odds are.04%

In the most recent past (10 or so years) I am only aware of 7 or 8 people a year who purchased max tickets for either sheep or mt goat or both raffles each year.

I can think of only 1 person who bought the max of 25 tickets that has won the Colorado sheep raffle. I think the same is true for the mt goat tag.

FYI - The 25 ticket max is set by state law. It has less of an impact on sheep but a guy could by 25 antelope tickets and have a less than 1 in 10 chance at winning.

Years ago I purchased a bunch of tickets for poorly advertised (non Rocky Mountain Bighorn Society run raffle) for statewide tag. I had 1/4 of all the tickets in the bin and I still didn't win.

Bottomline it all goes to a good cause so more tickets sold means more money for the animals.

If the price was lowered to $5 per ticket I think they would sell more tickets but the money raised would be about the same. I think most people want a chance at drawing and have budget of X dollars, so if tickets are $5 each the guy spending $25 still spends $25 and he gets 5 tickets. The guy currently buying 4 tickets for $100 now gets 20. I doubt we'd get a 100x more people buying tickets because the $25 ticket price is a limiting factor in purchasing one ticket.


Sandrew


Originally Posted by dinkshooter


Says the guide and outfitter! Scared of the leasing competition?

I've never seen anything that indicates any raffle or auction money has ever gone to BGAP.


I'm not scared of leasing competition, I'm completely against wasteful government spending. If somebody wants to come lease ground then get after it, I have no issue with that whatsoever.

I am a conservative at heart and I maintain those values across the board. I am all for less government and I can't stand to see needless entitlement programs drain the accounts. I find it absurd to try and create "opportunity" when the opportunity is there for anybody willing to knock on doors and make phone calls. I find it absurd that they need to create "opportunity" in a state with so much public ground and over the counter tags and I find it absurd that they would overspend using dollars generated by us for a program that loses so much money yet provides so little. If a guy is not lazy and is willing to work he could hunt the plains every year, it's not up to a government agency to provide that.

The program absolutely sucks on about every level. Is the "guide and outfitter" argument the very best you can come up with? Please tell me that's not all you've got.

As for what money funds BGAP, it doesn't really matter to me. I brought it up specifically because exbiologist mentioned that there were some substantial cuts for the coming years and I stated that I hope that was one of them
Access yes/Walk in/BM has been pretty successful in Wyoming,Idaho,Kansas,Montana and Utah even tho the outfitters whine and snivel about it.Lets do away with all NFS/BLM while we're at it..thats a pretty damn big government ran hunter welfare program there..Just think of the new outfitter lease opportunities for you Drum!

Isnt BGAP the same thing under a different name? Wyoming does a really good job at running theirs, and there is a donation box for it when you apply,something I dont see in other states with similar programs,HUGE mistake IMO. I've donated a pretty good sum over the years to Wyoming program,and have killed some nice critters on the properties as well.
Originally Posted by rosco1
Access yes/Walk in/BM has been pretty successful in Wyoming,Idaho,Kansas,Montana and Utah even tho the outfitters whine and snivel about it.Lets do away with all NFS/BLM while we're at it..thats a pretty damn big government ran hunter welfare program there..Just think of the new outfitter lease opportunities for you Drum!

Isnt BGAP the same thing under a different name? Wyoming does a really good job at running theirs, and there is a donation box for it when you apply,something I dont see in other states with similar programs,HUGE mistake IMO. I've donated a pretty good sum over the years to Wyoming program,and have killed some nice critters on the properties as well.


HAHA! I didn't know I should be ashamed of the 3 critters I shot in Wyoming thanks to Walk in Areas or HMAs! Disgraceful that I should be on the government dole, always walking around with my hand out!

Pretty sure the BGAP program was modeled after Montana�s block management system.

http://wildlife.state.co.us/Hunting/BigGame/AccessProgram/Pages/BigGameAccessProgram.aspx
Originally Posted by Sandbrew
Originally Posted by dogcatcher223
One ticket is a waste of time. Your max is 25. Once again the big money guys have the best odds. I cannot afford $625 to gamble on raffle tags.

The funny part is, the rich guys like the higher prices because it keeps the sales volume down which increases their odds. Sell those babies for $5 and you would sell 100x more tickets.


If the price was lowered to $5 per ticket I think they would sell more tickets but the money raised would be about the same. I think most people want a chance at drawing and have budget of X dollars, so if tickets are $5 each the guy spending $25 still spends $25 and he gets 5 tickets. The guy currently buying 4 tickets for $100 now gets 20. I doubt we'd get a 100x more people buying tickets because the $25 ticket price is a limiting factor in purchasing one ticket.

Sandrew


I agree with this. People are only willing to spend a certain amount.

My favorite is the raffle ticket applications with the little old man writing on it and a money order for one sheep ticket, I always secretly hope someone like that will win.

The issueI have with BGAP is that the state is paying insane amounts of money for leases that really don't offer that great of an opportunity. Here are some figures for 2007, 2008 and 2009�.

2007:
Total cost paid by the CDOW = $76,390.56
Total sales generated = $6,950.95
Total Loss = $69,439.61

2008:
Total cost paid by the CDOW = $103,930.02
Total sales generated = $15,975.95
Total Loss = $87,954.07

2009:
Total cost paid by the CDOW = $100,834.83
Total sales generated = $24,527.77
Total Loss = $76,307.06

The figures represent a TOTAL LOSS over 3 years of $233,700.74! That's roughly an average loss of 83% over the first three years of the program and doesn't take into account 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2013. I guarantee the numbers for those years are dismal as well

CDOW is paying as much as $3.00 per acre and and as little as $1.00 per acre. If we split the difference and go with $2.00 per acre, that's roughly $300,000 per year in annual lease fees as they have almost 150,000 acres in the program now. Now, if the CDOW sells access stamps at $40.00 each, that means they only have to sell 7,500 of them just to break even! But, obviously that isn't happening! With an average loss of 80% - 90% annually, the program is generating $60,000.00 at best. That's only a loss of over $2 million over the next 10 years, if everything stays constant

When I received the figures in the summer of 2010 the figures were not all known yet for that year. However, the CDOW had agreed to pay $98,027.17 in lease payments. This figure DID NOT include signs & equipment costs either and none of these figures account for the man hours our game wardens have into policing the properties. I do not know the figures on the permit sale for 2010 but the fact of the matter is that they simply do not offer enough tags in those eastern plains units to even come close to recouping the money spent on lease fee's

Anybody that has hunted the plains will tell you that while you might have insane amounts of acres to hunt for deer there may be only a small portion of that ground that is really good deer habitat. Hell, you don't need to have hunted the plains to figure this out, just drive from Denver to Burlington and look at how much ground is just flat pasture where you'll never find a deer. What happens is that you will have 80% of the BGAP guys hunting 10-15% of the ground that was leased and it is just flat dangerous at times. I have seen guys surrounding a field and all shooting at deer or antelope that are out in the middle. I have had bullets shot over the top of me. Its just flat scary

Now lets take into account the sloppy accounting that resulted in a miscalculation of more than $30 million at Colorado's Division of Wildlife. They were writing checks and not deducting the money from the books and as a result, the Wildlife Cash Fund Reserve dipped from about $37 million in 2007 to about $6 million by 2011. Is this the fault of BGAP? Certainly not but BGAP is yet another example of fiscal irresponsibility by our DOW and now our Parks and Wildlife department

If these figures don't wakes you up as to the issues I have with BGAP and our Parks and Wildlife department then you aren't paying attention IMO. Instead of focusing on the fact that I guide hunts for a living why don't we discuss the facts of the program. I don't know what is going to happen next year but there are areas of the plains that do not need this kind of pressure. We had a case of EHD in some areas out east and the game warden in that area and I agree that the whitetail population has taken a serious hit.

One last point, over 18 years of hunting the eastern plains I have helped a lot of people find places to hunt and helped them figure out what units they should focus on. I have NEVER asked for a dime to help even though in some instances I literally drove hundred of miles out of my way to look at a piece of property for them so lets leave the "evil guide and outfitter" out of this conversation. If thats the best you can come up with then I believe you are simply too emotional to look at the facts and engage in a constructive debate about them
Why do you not have a problem with this program then? We are paying to be able to hunt state land! None of them near where you guide? I hate seeing the scurvy public when I'm out trying to chase muley bucks grin

http://wildlife.state.co.us/LandWater/StateTrustLands/Pages/stl_info.aspx
I wonder how much the CDOW spends a year to admininster outfitting related issues?

Huntsonora, I think you're treading on some thin ice looking at wildlife management of any type on a purely economic level.

From the numbers I've seen, in every single state, outfitters themselves contribute about as close to nothing as it gets in regard to DOW/G&F funding. Their CLIENTS contribute just about every penny that the State gets in regard to anything to do with outfitted hunts.

I think its foolish and irresponsible to look at every program from a simple dollar value assigned, just like you did in your post above. While your numbers are accurate, you didnt take into account the benefit of spreading pressure around, giving hunters a place to hunt, and the CDOW getting the management (via access) they need in those areas.

If we're going to look at every program simply from a dollar and cents view, fishing in most every state would be a loser as well. Have you looked at the cost to raise fish, plant fish, etc.? Compare that to the price of a fishing license thats valid for 365 days a year. Big loser economically for most all G&F agencies. Yet, IMO, the net gain in families spending time together, or watching a young kid smiling while holding a dirt-covered trout up for a picture...is worth it to me. Economically, it makes not sense to stock fish, so in your view, that it has to be about economics, we should scrap that program?

The value in wildlife resources is only realized if the public has access to them...both consumptive and non-consumptive access. If the CDOW has to pay to get that access in some cases, so be it.

I think you need to pull away from your tunnel vision and think big-picture.

Also, you can blow smoke all you want, but the days of walking up and knocking on doors and gaining access for free are largely OVER.

The number one reason why people either dont start hunting, or quit hunting, is because they dont have a place to go and/or access. Thats a fact well documented in various USFWS reports conducted nation wide.

Instead of whining about a program, why not try to improve it?
Originally Posted by BuzzH

Huntsonora, I think you're treading on some thin ice looking at wildlife management of any type on a purely economic level�.

I think its foolish and irresponsible to look at every program from a simple dollar value assigned, just like you did in your post above. While your numbers are accurate, you didnt take into account the benefit of spreading pressure around, giving hunters a place to hunt, and the CDOW getting the management (via access) they need in those areas�.

The number one reason why people either dont start hunting, or quit hunting, is because they dont have a place to go and/or access. Thats a fact well documented in various USFWS reports conducted nation wide.


BuzzH, in the words of Ricky Bobby, with all due respect, and remember I'm sayin' with all due respect, those comments ain't worth a velvet painting of a whale and a dolphin gettin' it on grin I'm kidding but I was about to open my comments with "with all due respect" and I thought about Ricky Bobby and had to laugh

First of all, I will answer the questions and statements you expressed that I feel educated enough to speak on. I simply do not know enough about our fisheries program to be able to make an educated comment and as for outfitters, they are not regulated by Colorado Parks and Wildlife but by DORA which stands for Department of Regulatory Agencies.

I don't know if you read my entire post earlier and maybe you just got caught up in the numbers I was posting but a big, and I mean BIG, reason I am against BGAP is because of the quality, or lack thereof, of the hunt it provides. As I mentioned earlier the good, huntable habitat available is just a portion of the actual acreage leased. An archery hunter might be able to get away from the masses due to lack of guys hunting but I have literally been shocked on numerous occasions that I didn't see somebody get hurt or worse due to all of the people crammed into small areas during the rifle hunts. I am sorry but when you see 10 people hunting a creek bottom that is less than a mile long or when you see 10 people in a 320 acre field, all firing at the same animals I think you would agree. You would be stunned if you had seen some of the actions and behaviors I have seen in these BGAP areas. You claim that the BGAP program spreads pressure around" and I can tell you from firsthand experience that it does the exact opposite, it actually focuses the pressure to just a few areas. I have seen entire age classes of deer wiped out during a season. Its sad really. You also claim that the number one reason people don't start hunting is due to lack of opportunity yet a significant portion of the land area of Colorado � over 35% � is public land. These public lands include forests, wildlife refuges, monuments, wilderness areas and lands managed by the BLM and there are OTC elk tags available to anybody that wants one and there are always leftover tags available after the draw. Opportunity abounds here in Colorado

Originally Posted by BuzzH

The value in wildlife resources is only realized if the public has access to them...both consumptive and non-consumptive access. If the CDOW has to pay to get that access in some cases, so be it.

I think you need to pull away from your tunnel vision and think big-picture.

Also, you can blow smoke all you want, but the days of walking up and knocking on doors and gaining access for free are largely OVER


Buzz, I gain access by knocking on doors all the the time. Landowners are receptive to letting people hunt in a lot of the areas I frequent. All it takes it time to get out there to meet people. I know a number of people on this website alone that hunt ground they don't have to pay for and they got permission by working for it, not by waiting around until Colorado Parks and Wildlife leased ground for them. I assure you that I am not blowing smoke here and that you may be the one with blinders on if you feel that obtaining access is impossible.


Originally Posted by BuzzH

Instead of whining about a program, why not try to improve it?


At least I post facts and figures when I state my case as to why I feel BGAP is a failed program. There are some here that have nothing to focus on other than the fact that I guide hunts for a living and they feel I simply don't like the competition. Thats almost comical considering I have literally gone out and found deer in these units I guide in for 24HCF members in the past and will happily do so in the future. I have always given my honest opinions and not blown smoke up anybodies arse to further my own agenda. Some guides might, I don't.
Buzz, one last question, have you hunted BGAP areas here in eastern Colorado in the past? Have you ever hunted eastern Colorado and if so when was it?

Thanks
I hunt there a lot and I think you are spot on regarding the quality of land leased by state in the BGAP. That program should end. Lot of people on the plains will give you permission to hunt if you go knock on doors in spring and early summer.
Originally Posted by dinkshooter
Why do you not have a problem with this program then? We are paying to be able to hunt state land! None of them near where you guide? I hate seeing the scurvy public when I'm out trying to chase muley bucks grin

http://wildlife.state.co.us/LandWater/StateTrustLands/Pages/stl_info.aspx


Actually, there is a state lease that borders my families ranch in eastern CO. I simply do not know enough about the program to comment on it. I do know that state ground has been leased for many years for ranching, farming etc and that the funds from those leases go towards schools, public buildings, prisons and a few other things. I do not have the facts and figures available to comment but I am curious and will check it out. Sorry I did not respond yesterday, it was a long day
Originally Posted by huntsonora
Buzz, one last question, have you hunted BGAP areas here in eastern Colorado in the past? Have you ever hunted eastern Colorado and if so when was it?

Thanks


Buzz,

If you have hunted BGAP and had a positive experience I would love to hear about it

Thanks
Originally Posted by huntsonora
Originally Posted by huntsonora
Buzz, one last question, have you hunted BGAP areas here in eastern Colorado in the past? Have you ever hunted eastern Colorado and if so when was it?

Thanks


Buzz,

If you have hunted BGAP and had a positive experience I would love to hear about it

Thanks


Buzz,

I am writing another article on the eastern plains, similar to the one I have in Muley Crazy this issue, and would love to hear any positive feedback you have about BGAP. I try to be objective but have yet to find anybody with anything good to say about the program.

Thanks
BGAP is going away in Colorado. That's what I've heard anyway.
Originally Posted by PassCreek
BGAP is going away in Colorado. That's what I've heard anyway.


I have heard the same thing from some reliable sources but it hasn't been announced publicly yet so I am still looking for a success story. The way BuzzH talked it seemed like he had a lot of experience with the program
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