During the past few years, the Stone's Sheep herds in northern B.C. have declined by about 25-30 %; this due to severe predation, habitat loss and over-harvest by chiefly non-resident "trophy hunters". The Guide-Outfitter concessions of the area, the finest big game hunting left anywhere in North America, are often owned by foreigners and use resident "front men" to meet the lax regulations imposed by successive B.C. governments. They have continually lobbied governments for a larger share of the annual harvest and restrictions on resident hunting, such as L.E.H.

The demands of industry for access to the fabulous resource wealth of the area has also been a factor in the seemingly inevitable loss of B.C. people's birth right to harvest these Sheep. However, just today, an announcement was made by government resource managers that ALL petroleum exploration in two of the most crucial drainages would be STOPPED until studies of the environmental imapct on the Stone's Sheep were undertaken and the results thereof analyzed. This is a huge advance in the struggle to preserve B.C. wilderness/wildife from the ravages of "progress", all the more so as it is a neo-con, "business friendly" government that has made this wonderful decision.

The latest harvest figures from the 2005 season show that harvest figures are down almost to 50% of most recent years; even after major cuts to non-resident quotas, the G/Os and their foreign, chiefly American clients, STILL killed 183 Stone's rams to 104 harvested by B.C. hunters. There is a growing movement in B.C. to further limit or even eliminate foreign trophy hunting for these and other rare species of our wildlife and the allocation process is currently under review in the Ministry of the Environment. Hardline Canadian nationalists will very likely influence this process in ways that will preserve our Stone's Sheep, etc. and benefit resident hunters.

It is highly gratifiying to see that even the corporate elite are beginning to realize that conservation and preservation of wilderness/wildlife are far more valuable than the resource rape and environmental devastation that have characterized so much of our history. I hope to see further decisions of this type in coming years.

Not having any trouble reading between those lines of glee...

I fail to see the juxtapositioning of oil exploration, non-resident hunting, and foreign ownership of the guiding concessions in your post, although I can see how they could be cumulative of impact on an area.

You seem to be suggesting a "vast right wing conspiracy". Are you?

Care to spell this out in more detail?

I think that you will find with a little research that guided hunters/fishermen are nearly always more successful than unguided ones. Guides have more resources (horses, gear, camps) and are on the scene more /have more experience than we resident wannabees. Fact of Life. You do NOT want to get me started on Kenai River King Salmon guides ....

I once pointed out to a friend of mine asking hunting questions of me after his first year as Assistant Guide in an over exuberance of confidence in me (which I did answer to the best of my ability) "You have gotten more experience in your 6 weeks of Assistant Guide last year than I get in 5 years of weekend hunting".

Experience & resources makes all the difference.

I also informed him that "All guides are Axxholes", which he dutifully passed on to Prince Radziwhassisname (brother to the Shaw of Iran, whom he guided a few weeks later) during a drunken binge after a successful hunt. (the Prince brought his own cook, and (nameless) never ate so good! - on a hunting trip, yet!)

The last thing the Prince did as he boarded the Cub out of camp was to point his finger at (nameless) and roar " You Axxhole!"

Lynn Castle, Master Guide and boss (axxhole in his own right and since deceased due to crash) - danged near had a stroke right there on the gravel bar. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm always glad to be of help <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

kute
It's about dam time. Good post.

I had friends that bought half interest in a Canadian outfit in 90. They paid 80,000 for 1/2 interest. After one trip to Germany, they sold 14 stone sheep at 10,000 each. Had a 100% kill ratio. The profit they made was excellent. I don't know about now, but back then, the canadians were easy money. They pay next to nothing for leases of queens land. Everyone used to profit.

I hope this attitude of "it's our's, keep out" continues. Without revenue, they will crumble eventually, making for some good deals down the road.

My friend Kutenay, quiet with "good news" is sometimes better than rubbing the "genie"! Let me see, no drilling (no income), no "guide-outfitters" (no income) BUT the locals are happy campers - whoa is me, who is going to pay the bills for the conservation/preservation goodies! Better put your hand on your wallet <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I knew Americans were better sheep hunters but I thought it might be a little closer than that! If we quit coming up there, next thing you know those sheep will be coming down into the agricultural areas and you guys can have depredation hunts on ewes. So there is an upside to this.

Guess I need to get lucky enough to draw my second sheep tag in Colorado or my first one in Utah or New Mexico.

I'm not proposing to close sheep hunting from the guide-outfitter's.But I do support a reduced quota system and LEH draws were the majority of the draws go to the residents first.Just like I would think a resident in Alaska should have first kick of the can for game or a resident of Texas should have the first option for deer hunting ect.

OK, honest injun, raise your hands if you would be happy if the numbers quoted by Kutenay were switched to 104 "anyone not a Canadian" and 187 solely set aside for Canadian consumption? You can see my little Texan hand waving in the air! How 'bout you? Just how many Stones does one need hangin in their house? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hell ya, if sheep meat is so tasty, run down wyoming and buy a herd. LOL

This post is about the very welcome change of attitudes/behaviour on the part of the current (and past) B.C. government(s). It is much less about how B.C. wildlife should be allocated, however, things are changing here.

Many B.C. people now oppose foreign trophy hunting and also foreign ownership of G/O concessions as the G/Os have strongly advocated policies that lessen residents access to and harvest of OUR wildlife. Whether I or any B.C. hunter has one or fifty Stone's rams hanging on our walls has nothing to do with the crucial action needed to preserve and enhance the populations of these rare animals. Those who appear to think that they have some "right" to one or more of these rams, when they are not Canadians or B.C.'ers simply aggravate the anti-foreign hunter attitudes now current in B.C.

I am opposed to ANY foreign hunting of ANY Canadian/British Columbian animal in ANY situation where the opportunities for residents are curtailed by limited entry draws or seasonal/annual limits on harvest; this is the case with much of our sheep hunting where one can only shoot a ram every four years. This means that NO foreign hunting should be tolerated and the miniscule amount of $$$$ derived from such hunters is not worth the cost to we who OWN B.C. and OUR wildlife.

Actually, I expect that public pressure to end foreign trophy hunting will greatly increase in the very near future and why should we residents try to prevent this, given the attitudes of so many foreign hunters toward us and OUR wildlife. All foreign investment in and ownership of G/O concessions should be outlawed and this activity restricted to native-born Canadians only, it's OUR country.

The next Provincial Government will, almost certainly, outlaw non-resident hunting here in B.C. Those who arrogantly spew nonsense about this alienate we residents who might be inclined to lobby against this. It seems odd to me that anyone would deliberately piss off the very people who are fighting to preserve these sheep, but, that seems to be the way it is.

For a few years, Kansas would not allow non-resident big game hunting. Colorado decided they were not going to allow Kansas hunters. That year Kansas let in Non-resident big game hunters.
I understand most hunting block s in BC are being bought by anti hunters so as to close them to hunting. This is more of a problem than non-resident hunters.
In my limited experience, when there are fewer permits, the price goes up. The animal gets hunted anyway.

Not exactly,friend. When the pressure came it was from residents wanting to make money off nonresidents. After all, everyone knows there's a B&C buck behind every bush in Kansas.
P.S. Don't believe all the promoters. That's not to say there are no big bucks, just not enough for the hype.

kutenay is not saying anything anti,he's just pro Canadian.
Nothing wrong with that.And he holds what I believe is
the local mans view on wildlife management.Same as Arizona
residents want the lions share of elk tags etc...

FWIW,if you want a stone ram...you better go ASAP because
they will be equal to the cost of a Desert BH soon.

Kutenay, my friend, as I have expressed before I am impressed with your nationalist pride but ask that you try to get real as in trying to squeeze just a soft touch of a little reality into your pride. We in Texas might say "chill"! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

If we did not know you as as a sharing, kind, give and forgive type person, one might think you had just a slight hint of greed under that otherwise soft spoken persona we have come to know. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Just like my favorite son, President Bush, will not "build the wall" to our South you will likely see no wall built around YOUR stones, although I know you will continue to give it the good fight.

There is no doubt in my feeble mind that all of the non-resident hunters that have been coming to Texas for many many years in the hopes of killing a "Big Whitetail" is the very reason that the cost of hunting here has been driven through the roof for both resident and non-resident hunters alike. Just like it has or will for Kansas.
That being said; there is a lot of money to be made from these ventures and like it or not it's not going to change for the better.
The politicians who make these decisions are controlled by the money and it makes no difference if they happen to be in office in Texas or Canada.

Just a simple man's 2 cents worth!!!!!

DT

limited supply + increase in demand = higher costs.

Certainly that complex algebraic equation is very true in the great brush country of S. Texas.

Where is this equation going to apply if my frined Kutenay gets his Wall around the Stones:

limited supply+increasing demand-zero access=No Money= higher local taxes? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Someone is going to make up the slack...Residents will have
to pony the difference in lost revenue to the gvt via higher
tag costs.

And any nonresident hunting of stones sheep allowed will be just for guys with deep-deep pockets.

correctamundo! Or, the elected officials in Canada can take a lesson from those in the USA and do something crazy - cut costs - oh no, no, no! And George met with his counterparts from Mex and Canada just last weekend to assure all three countries were on the "same page"! Hold on to your collective WALLETS!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

Oh great!Now what am I gonna do with that 25 thousand!

Buy Barnes bullets for "practice". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Buy Barnes bullets for "practice". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have been involved in B.C. conservation activities since I was 14 in 1960, when I wrote a letter to the then Regional Inspector for the B.C. Fish & Wildlife Branch advocating the creation of a certain wilderness park near my home town; 22 years later, this became a reality. For anyone to even suggest that my motives concerning the essential changes to wildlife management in B.C. are based on greed is ridiculous; this is precisely the sort of attitude about hunting in B.C. that enrages we Canucks and strengthens the negative attitudes about non-resident hunting that currently are increasing here.

My concern here is first for the animals and their habitat, then for ordinary B.C. hunters and our absolute right to any level of usage/restrictions on our wildife resources that we desire. I cannot get equality in the U.S.A., for example, with an American citizen to hunt Dall's or Kodiaks in Alaska....nor should I...and I cannot buy an Alaskan guiding outfit and then begin to restrict Alaskan's opportunities to hunt in favour of B.C. visiting hunters.....nor should I be able to, regardless of my financial status.

The facts in the B.C. case are that the Guide/Outfitter Ass'n. of B.C. has and is attempting to get the government to allow them to control ALL resident hunting and access. They want to greatly lower resident seasonal limits in order to increase their quotas of "trophy" animals that they sell to wealthy foreigners and, in many cases, the profits from this are then taken "home" to foreign countries.

The actual $$$$ that the Province of B.C. realizes from the huge kill of B.C. wildlife by guided foreign hunters every year is only a tiny part of the funds needed for wildlife management. Any increase in resident licence fees necessary to accomodate an elimination in non-resident hunting would be only a few bucks to each hunter and those I know have indicated that they would gladly pay larger fees to fund better management and greater hunting opportunities and better success ratios.

So, as JeffP correctly pointed out, this is about priority for B.C. people to correct the current unsustainable situation. While one, largely U.S.-funded environmentalist group has bought ONE guide concession, because nobody else would, they are not now and never will be able to buy out the really crucial outfits in the best hunting areas. These have very heavy American "investment" annd these are the ones who attempt to limit resident access and lower resident quotas.

B.C. Guide/Outfitters used to be "Mom&Pop" operations by local people, usually stump ranchers and had little impact on the resident's hunting. Now, they are multi-million dollar operations with special permits to build huge luxury lodges in wilderness parks, where I cannot even legally build a pole tent-frame, and exclusive contracts with federally licenced air carriers that exclude resident access to much of our finest hunting.

Spotter planes, radios, exclusive grazing rights in wilderness areas where I cannot even take a pack string without being hassled by members of the Forest Service, for whom I used to work, and many other special privileges/concessions have allowed wealthy foreign investors and their friends from their home countries to obtain ego-boosting "Grand Slams" at the expense of B.C. resident hunters. If, wanting to stop this is greedy, well, tough schitt, it is GOING to be STOPPED, one way or another.

The costs of a B.C. Stone are about half those of a Mexican Desert Bighorn and increasing this cost will NOT benefit the Sheep or B.C. wildlife management; it will only further enrich the Guide/Outfitters. I have had any years direct experience with environmental issues/management in western Canada, both as a volunteer conservationist and an employee of resource managment agencies and private consulting firms; from this I know that things must change and re-gaining control of our hunting is first among them.

I am not totally opposed to non-resident hunting, but, I want to de-commercialize it, bring in a draw system so that ordinary guys from Australia, New Zealand, the U.K. and the U.S. will have at least a chance to hunt whatever game we have a surplus of; I do NOT want to see non-resident hunting here restricted to the wealthy as is becoming more and more prevalent. Given that some Stone's herds have, I'm told, declined in numbers by 40% in recent years, the cost of hunts for the remaining rams is going to sharply increase; however, this will do nothing to re-build those herds or enhance resident hunting.

Due to this situation, I favour an immediate ban on all foreign hunting of Stone's Sheep. If, that's not acceptable to wealthy "Grand Slammers", and they want to raise a ruckus about it, maybe a legislated end to all non-resident hunting might be the best option....and this is quite possible.

I am firmly in favour of local control/managment of environmental issues, hunting included and believe in scientific managment, not in wildife production influenced by big egos and foreign $$$$$; my impression is that the majority of Canadian/B.C. hunters strongly agree with me. Changes are coming and it is about time.

A well articulated post....
No ambiguity,and no guessing where you stand!

Further,I wish we could curb the outfitters here too.As I
would love to have access to hunt Dalls w/o a mandated
guide rule.

I do not have any major concerns with your position on foreigners hunting in BC, but I do have some concern with your implied statement on oil drilling/exploration in the area. I know my position may be extremely unpopular, but I am convinced that until we can find alternative energy sources we must explore/drill/produce petroleum reserves wherever we can find them on this earth (and this certainly includes Alaska.) The entire world economy is on such a fragile thread currently, that a slight blip in oil production will send the global economy into such a tailspin that I believe would generate a global economic depression. I'm surely in favor of very tight restrictions on the oil companies (which I believe are raping us daily) in all their exploits, and we must absolutely get some teeth into getting on the fast track to alternative energy sources or we're all going to be destitute sooner than we can imagine. Just an avid hunter / ordinary consumer's 02 cents worth.

rstokes
What country do you hail from?

Good ole USA

Well not to steal Kutenays thunder...but shouldn't BC residents
decide where and how to use thier resources?I think you make his point for him.

Perhaps, but did you mean to say that Canadians should have a say about how Canadian resources are administered? I could then come to your understanding. Unfortunately, we do not have that "Canadian" picture being presented as it is a B.C picture first and then Canadian. That would be akin to my being able to tell an Okie that he is not welcome to drill for oil in Texas. Certainly if Canada wishes to exclude all foreign hunters they have that right. I am sure B.C. has provincial laws as we have state laws. However, we both have Big Brother looking over our shoulders.

Correct,Canadian.As you pointed out,a resident of Alberta
has a stake in BC Stone rams or oil.However,like most
residents of the west,BC residents want the right to the lions share of resources first.Just as New Mexico or Arizona residents want preference for elk tags over some jerk from Connecticut.

However,money talks and BS walks...I think Kutenay has a
tough row to hoe.

JeffP,
If those in BC want to keep their pristine wilderness, that's fine with me. Have never been there but I'm quite certain it's a wonderful place. I'm just saying that if the global economy falters because of the lack of an adequate oil supply, the tree-hugging environmentalists will be walking and starving with the rest of us, and revenue generated from hunting in any location will seem pale in comparison. The US already imports a tremendous amount of oil from Canada (and others)and needs to continue to do so at whatever the price until alternative energy sources are utilized. As a US citizen, I certainly don't like being in this "import at any cost" position on oil. This might sound pompous, but if the tap dries up on the US, Japan and Germany; everyone goes down the tube.

I'm just saying that if the global economy falters because of the lack of an adequate buffalo supply, the tree-hugging environmentalists will be sleeping blanketless and starving....

You can fill in the blank with any resource.

I don't see kutenay as a greeny,more like TR.And although I
don't know him,I believe him to be sincere about his concerns for Stone sheep,BC hunters rights as well as the environment .Sometimes what is best for the resource is not always what is economically the most productive.

I'm not up to date on the oil economy,but when is the last time we built a refinery?Why don't we drill offshore in California? I think our oil problems are more homespun than international.Apart from oil thirsty China.

Absolutely, he has a rough rode to hoe! His position has always been BC first and I think to the exclusion of several classes of BC residents as well. One would think that BC hunters are behind every tree, when in reality I gather between the lines there are relatively few BC hunters per capita. However, having said that we know in our own backyard the minority win out over the majority in almost every decision being made. Perhaps Kutenay is on to something! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> In any event he is steadfast in his beliefs and I have always wished him the best.

Well since we are here may as well hijack the thread. I am and have been in the oil patch for the past 35 years. No refineries being built because no oil to run them - simplistic answer. Actually there has been considerable drilling offshore California but could certainly be more. Until recently (20 years is still recent for some of us) the world depended in great part of the industrial output of the US to provide it with much of its required manufactured goods. We provided the manufacturing facilities and they provided some of the oil to run the plants, transport the workers, etc.

Along came the Communist Chinese, without laws, lawyers, etc, coupled with a, let's say robust level of testosterone = a sleeping giant of competition. As their new plants came on line, our old plants went off line - again a simplistic example, but none the less a reason for the need for more oil. One would think that shuttering our plants would reduce our demand for energy, not so - we are at war across the world and the demand for energy has increased at the same time the peoples of China demand more goods and services with their newfound "wealth". Certainly, oil and gas being a depleting resource is unable to keep up with the ever increasing demands. Alternative sources of energy are the only way to feed the world demand. Certainly if ever higher prices for oil continue there will be a worldwide depression and we are seeing some signs of that in the US now as fertilizer plants, a large consumer of energy, are shutting down. No fertilizer, less food and on down the chain we go. Well this of course can go on and on through ones entire economy but that is a class for someone much smarter than this "hunter".

As long as we're on the topic, does anyone know a good Stone sheep guide in BC?

IMHO it is difficult to get the names for what should be some very obvious reasons! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />Honestly, I have read several articles about hunting the stone in BC and nowhere do they mention the area, guide, etc in the article.

Trophy Stone Safaris Ltd.
Curt and Marcia Thompson
29 Wann Road, Box 9176
Whitehorse, Yukon Territory
Y1A 4A2
Phone: (867) 668-6564
Fax: (867) 668-6563
E-mail: thompson@polarcom.com
Boycott BC

I have more info. to impart on this, but, am too busy at present. For anyone wanting to hunt Stone's now or in the near future, I can strongly recommend the following G/Os.

High & Wild-Barry Thompkins- often called "the best outfitter in the north" and, IMO, with good reason. One of his head guides, a former outfitter himself, Dale Copeland is one of the maybe three BEST master bushmen I have ever seen, and I am not exactly a novice in the B.C. bush. This guy can be ornery, but, he makes most of us good bushmen here look like kids, no schitt. I highly recommend Barry, period.

Stone Mountain Safaris, once Dave Wiens, now owned by some other folks with some assistance from Dave. Again, a top notch outfit, very well run and lots of game. I also recommend them without reservation.

Miles Bradford, a small, quiet outfit with an OUTSTANDING rep among hardcore Sheepists ( a weird breed, anyway); for only Sheep, this is where I would go, but, Barry and SMS have a greater variety of huntable species, especially Elk.

Gundahoo Outfitting, they supposedly have the largest rams, I know nothing about them.

There are others, but, I would pick from the first three; some of the other outfits (nobody mentioned here) have hit and miss reputations and I prefer not to comment.

Last, the old Peck outfit, but, I don't know who is running it now, the MOE in Victoria would know, or, the field office in Fort St. John. Again, one of B.C.'s most legendary outfits and VERY fine country with LOTS of game.

IF, you are serious about going, I would go on a multi-species hunt first or try to combine Stone's with Goats. These hunts cost a LOT of money, figure $30,000 USD for a Stone, over all plus more for other trophies on the same hunt. But, this is the finest wilderness hunting left on this old planet.....which is why many of we B.C.'ers are so passionate about it....and it is an experience you will always treasure and never forget.

Yukon hunting for Stone's (aka Fannin's) Sheep, Dall's and so forth as well as MacKenzie Mountain hunting in the NWT is very good, quite expensive and worth the price. But, there is nowhere on Earth like B.C. and, if you can afford it, do it now as it is changing and not for the better from a hunting point of view.

Here is some contact info.

High & Wild-250-787-8431

Stone Mountain-250-232-5469

Go to www.goabc.org for further info.....and do it soon, because it can take three years to get a spot with one of the worthwhile G/Os.

O.K., I am not buying ANY more "Alaska Fish Fertilizer", NO MORE! The impact on the Alaska economy will be fearsome, my roses will wilt and hang their lovely heads in sorrow, BUT, boy, no more Alaska fish poop for me!!!!

That'll fix 'em!!!!

rstokes,
A couple of points on BC oil/gas exploration. The Stone sheep have a very small area they live in and apparently are very vulnerable to roads. The natural resources in Canada belong to the provinces, not the federal govt. In Alberta, the provincial govt gets all the royalties form Oil&gas, and control the exploration. Same in BC, The major's are currently drilling allover northeastern BC, this riling has had a profound effect on accessibility of wildlife. With accessibility comes hunter success. BC is a fairly 'green" province to begin with, but if you were to poll Albertan's if they wanted to ban foreign Hunters the vote would oeverwelminly be in favour. Typically American's vastly overestimate the importance of nonresident hunting to our overall economies. Almost nowhere in Alberta or Northeastern BC is there any unemployment, there are very few jobs dependent on nonresident hunting if any. Our economies are booming, in particular Alberta's.
I competely agree with Kutenay, no way should nonresident hunters get preference over resident's here or in Arizona for that matter.

I totally agree with you that the local residents should get the preference in hunting, fishing and all the other rights and perks that come with being a resident in that particular Province or Nation; it shouldn't be any other way. I completely agree with his assessment on the wildlife situation in BC. I'm just saying that when it comes to oil production, the whole world is tethered to that greasy pipeline. We all need to bust our ass to wean ourselves from this situation. My position is simply that the entire global economy can fall like a house of cards if this supply runs short for even a minimal time. And with China and India now inefficiently industrialized, who knows when this lack of oil supply could create such an economic tragedy. I did notice that Gold hit a 25 year high today. My last post on this thread.

I have a couple of points to add to the discussion. First, Kutenay is bang-on about Barry Tomkins. I know Barry and his family and have twice hunted in his area and also worked in his camps. His area is chock-a-block with game animals, he demands the best from everyone who works for him, he treats his customers with respect and gives them a great experience, and he genuinely cares for the game animals in his area. Re: sheep, I have often heard him say that one Stone Sheep should be enough for each hunter for a lifetime. He would also like to see hunters be more selective and shoot only the really old rams, rather than settle for the ones that are barely legal.

Second, about Stone Sheep in general, there is no doubt that the sheep are less numerous in this general area than in the past. There are probably a few factors involved, including hunting, animal predation, and human/economic encroachment. The easiest factor to deal with is hunting, and changes in the regulations in the next few years are very likely to occur. Possibilities are: limiting the general season, raising the maturity level of legal rams, going to LEH draws, and restricting foreign access. My guess is we won't have to wait long to see which way B.C. will go, as there is a lot of pressure from many corners to make some changes. The sheep aren't endangered by any means, but the province is interested in maintaining their status. If you are anticipating coming here for some sheep hunting,my advice is to re-mortgage and do it soon. Hunting in B.C., especially in the north, is an experience that you'll never forget. There are very, very few places on this planet that are as untouched or as beautiful.

Barry's website:
http://www.bignine.com/

Stone Mountain's website:
http://stonemountainsafaris.com/

I agree residents should have the most preference in any game management program, otherwise it would encourage poaching. And I completely agree that other countries have the "rights" to decide their own, absolutely.

Surely there must be some room in between banning aliens and alien preference?

For my 2 cents of contributing an opinion it is this, the anti-hunters and anti-gun folks are not localized. They would be salivating over any announcements that prime game country like Arizona, or BC is closing hunting to all but native born residents of said area. They know the entire gun and hunting industry has interests or maybe at the least, dreams of perhaps only once in a lifetime hunting some of these areas.
If they were closed off to all but native born residents who would care or have any interest in the area? The national and international anti's could pool their vast resoures and their lust for screwin up guns and hunting and work their will on one localized region at a time, putting in their politicians etc.
My closing thought is in looking at Africa as an example, the areas that closed international hunting have for all practical purposes lost their game populations. While the countries who have remained open internationally maintain good populations of game. Although I can't say it would be a direct parallel in Arizona, BC, or Alberta it is something to ponder.

I think your point is valid about Africa, except for the very well organized Hunting and fishing organizations in each jurisdictioin in North America. I was really making the observation that non-resident Alien hunting in Alberta and BC contributes very little to the overall economies in our provinces and except the license fees which are only $180 in Alberta(don't know what the tags cost in BC) is used by Fish and Wildlife, it's really a very small amount of money in provinces with $20+ billion dollar annual budgets.

My point here was and is that the current situation IS not tenable; we Canadians ARE being left out of the best hunting in OUR nation in certain areas due to the activities of foreign owned Guide/Outfitters and the Sheep are declining in numbers.

I have NOT said anything about restricting B.C. hunting to certain ...classes...of residents, that is a misrepresentation of my statements and is diametrically opposed to what I believe in. I also have not said anything about restricting hunting to native-born B.C. residents; I said that Guide/Outfitter operations should be restricted to persons of that type and I tend to believe in this as a way to protect the birthright of B.C. people from foreign quickbuck "investors".

My experience with foreign hunters has been mixed and I have met some real good guys and also some jerks who think that just because they can afford to hunt here, they have the automatic right to do so. I think that resident-only hunting of our rare species might be the best way to protect these animals and our interest in them, but, am not fully committed to this as yet.

As to the negative impact of B.C. wilderness preservation on international commodities, petrochemical or whatever, I seriously doubt that a temporary or even a permanent ban of drilling in two drainages is going to throw the world's economy into a massive depression. In any event, Canada in general and B.C. in particular are NOT simply resource warehouses for nations who have squandered their own resource wealth; Canadian resources belong to Canadians, to do with as we see fit and we owe NOBODY the option of getting our resources cheaply, or at all, the Softwood-NAFTA shenanigans has taught us that.

I favour integrated resource policies and this could include a ban on the privelige of Americans hunting in B.C. due to the Softwood situation, it could also include withdrawing from NAFTA and charging U.S. customers more for our exports of electricity, petroleum products or whatever. I do honestly think that non-resident hunting in B.C. is going to be stopped within a fairly short time and there is no real incentive for we residents to lobby against this and some to lobby for it.

I totally support ANY decision taken by government or industry that enhances conservation here in B.C.; I am not concerned about negative impacts on a few hundred wealthy foreign hunters, this is not my problem. In any case, this particular decision is good news for the Stone's Sheep and I hope to see this start a trend of environment first and other considerations second where B.C. is concerned. As one of the other posters said, if you want to hunt here, do it soon, because it is getting VERY pricey and will probably be phased out in the near future.

I strongly disagree with the attitude that one Stone's Sheep ram per lifetime is enough for any hunter as this means that foreign hunters willing and able to pay the price of one of these hunts would have equal rights and an equal share in this B.C. resource to B.C. hunters. UNUH, NO WAY, NO HOW! This would benefit the Guide/Outfitters and rich foreign hunters at the expense of people like me; it is exactly the attitude that I am opposed to as are most resident hunters I know.

Overall, I favour a very small number of permits being allowed to foreign hunters based on a draw system. I also favour very large increases in licence fees so that the people of B.C. will benefit financially from the killing of our wildlife and, finally, I favour an elimination of ALL foreign hunting in any area of B.C. for any species where we residents opportunity is restricted by Limited Entry regulations and this is the first iniative that I want to see goverment take action on. If, there are not enough Kootenay Moose for an open season for guys like me, there are not enough for ANY foreign hunting, period.

The basis of this jealousy is the Americans were using guides familiar with the area and pre-scouted. If the natives were using the guides the desparity would probably be even greater compared with the on-their-on hunters.
We have this same thing going on in the US mountain states.

Wrong, there are plenty of B.C. resident hunters that are very familiar with the land and the species that inhabit it, they just can't fairly compete with the big outfitters who think they own sole hunting rights on their guide territory. Another big difference is most B.C. hunters don't have a budget to own a float plane, riverboat and a 5 star lodge in pristine wilderness habitat. Easy access to remote areas is a huge factor.

Even getting into remote habitat doesn't help in many cases. Two close friends of mine payed good money to get flown into a remote lake in northern B.C. 2 seasons ago to hunt stones sheep. At least twice a day everyday for the whole 7 days they were there, the local guide outfitter plane would make several low passes over the ridges and valley's in an obvious attemp to haze any sheep that may be in the vicinity. The outfitter kept track of the local float plane schedules so he would know where resident hunters were getting dropped off.
I have heard many accounts of similar tactics being used by other outfitters as well.

I have to agree with Kute on this one fully. The system we have as it stands now is in deperate need of an overhaul. The money spent in B.C. by foreign hunters does nothing to replenish game stocks or enhance habitat for the species that is being hunted. Heck, most of that money doesn't even stay in Canada.

I would love to see some drastic policy changes for the puppet G/O's and foreign hunters with lots of money and little respect for the privilages they enjoy at our expense.

RO

If that were done to me, I would report the situation to the Ministry of the Environment, the RCMP and the Vancouver media. I would carefully document and film the entire affair and then go public with it, I have considerable experience with media and government and could raise a huge ruckus.

If, this were an American "owner" of a B.C. Guide/Outfitter concession, the Vancouver media would leap on the story and I suspect that the individual would lose his guiding licence permanently. If not, I would contact my local MLA to initiate procedures in the Legislature to outlaw ALL non-resident hunting and thus eliminate the basis of the G/O's business.

My rights here in B.C. are based on birth, my pioneer ancestry which predates Confederation and my status as a taxpayer. I will not stand by and watch foreigners take over B.C hunting and I am heartened to see that the B.C. hunters on this forum agree; ours is not a position based on jealousy, we simply want what is ours and WILL do whatever we must to stop bullschitt like Riverotter mentions.

We are going to preserve our wildlife/wilderness and this action by the current government is a step in the right direction toward that goal, I intend to lobby for further actions of this type.

My apologies for the "ugly americans" that ruin everything for everyone.
Yes it sounds like eliminating foreign ownership of outfitter services and licenses would be a good plan for everyone.

No Canadian posting on this thread has said ANYTHING negative about Americans and certainly not ...ugly americans... We Canucks are generally quite pro-American, but, that does not mean that we want our hunting controlled by anyone other than ourselves; in our place, would you feel any differently?

1

These are the ones that I was referring to as ugly americans. We don't like'em either.

Kutenay,

It�s great to see that you are so enthusiastic and passionate about the welfare of sheep and sheep hunting in British Colombia. However, I�d like to add an additional name to your long list of recommended guides and outfitters.

Bryan Martin, Canadian Mountain Outfitters. http://www.canadianmtnoutfitters.com

Bryan was raised in Oregon, and after college, lived in Montana for a while. While he was starting his business and was working on becoming a BC resident, he spent quite a bit of time living at my house. He is a good friend that I�ve learned to know quite well and have done a bit of hunting with him here in Montana. I really wish I saw more of him, but he�s all over the map with his business and hunting these days. He hasn�t made it to back to visit for a long time.

He�s made significant sacrifices in his life to do what a lot of guys can only dream of doing. He works very hard and has built up a great outfitting business. I don�t know if he�s making a profit yet, but I sure hope so. He truly lives for the adventure of the hunt.

I�ve been fortunate enough to do a significant amount of hunting in my life and hunt with numerous high-quality individuals. Bryan ranks at the top of the stack, the very top. I�ve never been on a guided hunt, but if I do I hope that my outfitter/guide is a fraction of the individual that Bryan is. Several of my friends have hunted with Bryan in BC and they have nothing but great things to say about their experiences. Most have returned, or are planning to return.

I�m going to have to point out a key attribute that does not matter to me if I were to choose an outfitter as a Stone Sheep hunter in BC. It would be where that person was born. It�s completely irrelevant. It should be about picking the absolute best person there is.

Having been around the block a little when it comes to hunting, I�d have to say if you know somebody that is better suited for a northern BC Stone Sheep hunt than Bryan Martin� I�d have to see it to believe it. I don�t know if Bryan has the best sheep concession, but I�d bet everything that he is hands-down the best outfitter in that province, provided you judge an individual the way I do.

In any event, I hope the stone sheep in BC flourish and hunters (both resident and non-resident) can enjoy them for years to come.

I think Kutenays beef is with absentee owners of these outfits. Most people are welcome to come to Canada, open a business and live here. In effect they become a resident by their actions. If this guy supports the envireonment here and is a responsible businessman, it's certainly OK with me. That's not really Kut's issue.

I cannot debate every aspect of this at present as I must pack for a hunting trip commencing within a few days. Also, this thread is getting somewhat sidetracked from my original concern, which is the positive effect on the Stone's Sheep in northern B.C. of a decision by the current B.C. government as well as the absolutely unacceptable level of harvest by foreign trophy hunters.

I am not going to get into who is/is not the ...best outfitter... as that is irrelevant to my concerns and is, in any case, a subjective attitude that cannot be realistically addressed here.

However, the point concerning the birthplace of a given Guide-Outfitter is VERY pertinent to the issue, especially where American nationals are concerned. What we have now is Yanks who want to live their dream of being G/Os in the B.C. wilderness and STILL retain American citizenship and a residence(s) in the U.S.A.

These are among the very worst offenders in attempting to deny B.C. resident's access to OUR game due to lobbying for road closures and bag limit restrictions on we residents. Many of these buckos also will not take residents into "their" areas and thus restrict our hunting opportunities in our own land.

I am absolutely against ANY foreign national, regardless of "residence" being legally allowed to have ANY investment in/ownership of a B.C. Guide-Outfitter concession. Native-born British Columbians ONLY should be allowed, by law, to operate these concessions and how hard someone works or what quality of person they are has nothing to do with it.

In a related issue concerning resource allocation, international trade, NAFTA and basic fairness; the export of raw logs from B.C. to mills in the Pacific Northwest allowed by the same corporate-loving government has increased by about 100% during the past while. So, while the lumber processed in B.C. mills by B.C. workers is subject to an illegal "duty" by the "Dubya" government, this lumber from our logs is not and we suffer because of it.

I think that one of the responses to this by the B.C. government should be to eliminate the hunting of our wildlife by those who support "Dubya" as a demonstration of our resolve to control our resources and trade fairly. Given the foreign influence in wildlife allocation/access here in B.C., I think that there would be substantial benefits to B.C. resident hunters and the game populations as well.

I think that this explains my position on this issue as fully as is beneficial and I note that other B.C. residents tend to agree with me. So, I am off to backpack for several days at home in the Kootenays and I wish everyone here a very Happy Easter.

Everybody is entitled to their opinions and beliefs and however they feel the need to justify it.

All I have to say as this is one "yank" that if I were to go to BC in search of a Stone Sheep hunt, I'd choose to go with what I feel is likely the best. And he wasn't born in Canada.

Happy Easter & good hunting.

That's hilarious. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> He won't take me hunting so it takes away an opportunity from me...

I also find it odd that this thread only briefly mentions what your "good news" is:
After that, it veers almost entirely toward how the Yanks have crushed the sheep populations while jeopardizing the BC residents' "birth rights to harvest" them. Man, I with I had some birth rights to harvest MT sheep.

Just curious kutenay, how many sheep hunts have you been on and how many have you taken? Also, can you hunt stone sheep annually?

Sorry that I ask these questions in your thread, but the more I think about it, the more this subject appears to be some incessant whining.

Doggone it Horn, ya dun gone and dun it now! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />For your future reference, if you have not been here long, you should look up the threads under "kutenay" and get yourself ready because the Schitt is coming your way.

Nah, I am not into a slagging contest with anyone, "Greenhorn" included. I have made the points I think useful and have no desire, need or responsibility to "justify" my opinions as it's MY country and Canada's wildlife.

The Provincial Government here is now involved in re-accessing the game allocation in terms of resident/non-resident and I am submitting some ideas to them. They are "pro-business" and tend to be rather indifferent to we resident hunters and to conservation issues; I hope that this decision concerning drilling in Stone's habitat is evidence of a shift in their priorities.

In any event, the Stone's Sheep populations are substantially lower than they were and something has to change, I think that eliminating foreign hunting should be the first step.

__________________________
Greenhorn, substitute MT for B.C. in all the above "incessant whining" and then tell me you would be happy with the situation; Didn't think so. Its easy to arm chair the situation when it doesn't negatively affect you.

Change is coming, and when it does, we'll kick back with a Canadian beer and listen to all the "incessant whining" about the lack of opportunities for foreign hunters.

Lastly, if your thinking of having a pissing contest with Kute and the rest of us B.C. hunters over our hunting, save your whiz, we ain't backin down. You would not stand for us setting up shop in your state and trying to monopollize Montana's hunting, so don't expect us to bend over and give you ours. Your the exact model of American that we are going to rid our wilderness of, and I'm betting you'll be first in line whining the loudest.

RO

Hey don't answer questions for me without giving me an opportunity to answer for myself. And just so you know, I'm not going to be whining about anything, got plenty of great hunting here in MT. You'd never, ever catch me whining about lost opportunities due to an outfitter refusing to take me hunting in my own state. What a joke!

MT isn't BC. MT doesn't allow residents to hunt limited quantity big game species EVERY year. But it hasn't "outlawed" foreign hunters either. And it hasn't "outlawed" somebody doing business, based on where that person was born.

Please give me specific examples of nasty YANK outfitters who have fugged things up for you, or how they have monopolized the hunting and devastated the wild game, and taken from you. My guess is, like Kutenay, you won't bother answering specific questions.

Let me say that I do not know ANYTHING about BC sheep, the issues, problems, etc. I welcome the opportunity to learn from you guys. However, what I do know is that judging somebody by where they were born, and not by who they are, is a complete crock of [bleep].

I have tried to discuss this in a courteous fashion, but, you seem to think that you have some right to question me and my fellow B.C. resident hunters about what we wish in our Province. You don't know schitt about B.C. and you also don't understand that I am NOT obligated to reply to any of your obnoxious queries; it is, as RiverOtter pointed out, Americans like you who antagonize people here with your incredible arrogance and this motivates us to keep ALL foreigners out.

You may shoot your mouth off all you want to, it does not matter as I think that you are simply a deliberate troublemaker here, with a specific agenda. I have, as it happens, requested hunt opportunities from a number of G/Os here over quite a number of years and some of them told me that they would not take residents while others did not even bother to reply to e-mails, polite letters or phone calls.

If, you look on the websites or hunting mag. adverts of various G/Os, you will see American addresses, including your friend, Brian Martin who is NOT a Canadian and who does not belong here. Your attitude has helped me make up my mind, I will be working on eliminating foreign hunting here, permanently and, laddy, it will happen.

As to my sheep hunting, I have gone several times, by horse and backpack and have found legal rams; these were not huge trophies and so I chose not to kill one. I will be going into a spot I have researched in the Rockies this coming opening day for R.M. Bighorns, up north for a pack-in Stone's hunt and maybe for California's in the Chilcotin.

I can and would only shoot one ram and even then it has to be a monster as I hunt for different reasons than you obviously do, but, given MY resource base, I can do that............can you?????

You remind me of the Yankee "draft dodgers" that infested B.C. in the early '70s, you just won't see that you are exactly what is causing B.C. people to turn against foreign, especially American, hunters. But, keep it up, it assists us to demonstrate the arrogance, greed and disrespectful attitude that we do not want and will not have in B.C.

You openly admit that you don't know anything about this issue, but, you KNOW who the best outfitter in B.C. is????? This is about as credible as the rest of your rant and shows that you are a b.s. slinger with an obvious agenda.....are you a "booking agent" for Brian Martin and/or other American G/Os? Probably.

What could be behind that? Why wouldn't your money be as good as mine?

Me neither, I'm talking about outfitters preventing me as a resident from hunting in the areas I want to hunt or hazing the wildlife in said area because they think they have some God given right to all the game in their territory for their rich foreign clients.



There is a big difference between "Hunting" every year and "Harvesting" every year. B.C. doesn't allow a resident hunter to harvest a sheep every year.

As for "limited quantity" big game, everything is limited <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />. That's why we have LEH, open/closed seasons and bag limits. Regulations can work quite well as a management tool, but when it comes to excluding hunters due to lack of animals, it should start with foreigners.

I don't recall anyone saying we should "outlaw" foreign hunters. We just want residents prioritized for the animals we have and if cuts have to be made to save stocks then it should be foreigners first. Especially when their not even a resident of Canada.




I already did in my first post on this subject, earlier in this page. Don't tell me you didn't read the whole thread and just jumped in after reading the last post <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />.
There are many other similar accounts from resident hunters every year, especially in sheep country.




May be if you would have started out like that in your first post
we could have gotten somewhere. You have done nothing but make me and most other B.C. resident hunters(and non hunters) care even less if all foreign hunters are excluded from B.C. hunting.



I care a lot more about what a person does to contribute to society than who they are or where they were born, but be damned if some made of money foreigner is going to set up shop in my backyard and infringe on my privileges in favor of another foreigner while I take it all in stride. Don't think it can be laid out much clearer than that.

Contrary to what you may see on CNN, most Canadians do have a lot of pride in what is ours and we are willing to go toe to toe to keep it.

RO

Kutenay, you're a real piece of work. I'll question whoever the hell I want. I could give a rat's ass what you try to push in your province, but I suspect it will take more than a ignorant blowhard such as yourself to accomplish much of anything. We have residents of our state that feel the same way as you about non-resident hunters. People like you are everywhere, and your fantasies of having all the game to yourself due to some God granted "birth-right" is about as likely as you becoming the next King of Spain. So put away your crack-pipe buddy.

If you're a resident of BC and have to inquire with (rely on) an outfitter to do your hunting, you must be lacking something. I suspect THAT is why you are so hostile about things, specifically, the successful US hunters and kick-ass outfitters that were born in the good old US of A.

As for Bryan, his reputation speaks for itself and I don't have to stick up for him. He's booked solid and has to turn hunters away. Don't misquote me, I said if there was a better outfitter, I'd have to see it to believe it. The US address on web-site is that of his parents, who manage a lot of his paperwork while he is working in his camps or in Asia guiding sheep hunters.

You mention my disrespectful attitude... What have you demonstrated that merits any level of respect from me?

You're pissed because I mentioned a GREAT outfitter in BC that was born in the USA, it's as simple as that.

How's that backpacking trip going??

Because they might show you a "good" spot and they're worried you may not want their assistance in the future. As a resident, you could pay your own way in and hunt the area they took you. Me personally, I can live with that, but if that outfitter won't take me as a client and then attempts to keep me out(while foreigner are allowed in) or uses his plane to haze animals in the area I'm hunting; Then I'm really pissed.

RO

River Otter, did the outfitter hazing the sheep get reported? Was he a US-born outfitter and does that have a direct relationship to his activities?

Answer this please... Aren't the outfitter limited on the number of sheep they can take in there areas??

Agreed that residents should get priority. That was never questioned by me. Outlawing or eliminating non-resident hunting was what I was commenting on.. did YOU read the posts above?

Whatever. And who's the "made of money foriegner" you are talking about? Oh let me guess... anybody who is an outfitter must be wiping their ass with Canadian bills.

Kutenay, I think you might have mixed up your antagonism towards your Provincial/Canadian policies with foreigner's making good use of your provinces/country's liberal policies.

People are opportunist's and smart people make the best use of opportunities presented. That's how your fore-fathers ended up in Canada to begin with. You of all people know that.

Bryan is a dual national and he and Greenhorn happen to be two of the finest guys you could probably ever share a hunt with. Greenhorn can speak for himslef, but he's no booking agent. Last time I checked he's an engineer. If you need further proof of Bryans character, call Andrew or Dana over at Mystery Ranch and they'll talk your ear off with nothing butn positive comments. I was selling Bryan 100's of lbs of Freeze Dried foods and gear for his concession in 1999 when he first started in Spatsizi. He's worked his ass off to make that dream come true and no one loves that country more than he, I'll promise you that.

I have no idea whether Bryan's concession in the Spatsizi is the best Stone country in BC but I'd hunt with him in a heartbeat as he's an honest, hardworking guy and his hunts are not for couch potatoes, being mostly backpack hunts. Besides, the Spatsizi country would be worth the trip, sheep or no...

Take care you old Viking... I still owe you a Moose Drool!

River Otter, we have outfitters and ranch managers who regularly haze game from public land to their private ground as well. Guess what? They were born locally.

Anyone with an eyeball and an a$$hole can see who the "piece of work is." In case you lack those two simple attachments, it ain't Kute.

Your board name speaks volumes "green horn." Its pretty obvious from reading your posts that you brought a knife to a gun fight.

RO

Edited to add: a few posts were added while I was typing. I will respond again when it slows down, so the posts fit where they are intended.

RiverOtter, you're way off base.

If the shoe was on the other foot and the issue was occuring in MT, I'm still betting green horns tune would be a lot different. As were not face to face, I can only form an opinion based on his "keyboard attitude", which to me, wreaks of arrogance.

When it comes to hunting, I get a little defensive, especially when its coming from someone who lives in another country.

RO

Let me guess, they still call it Fair chase hunting! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Hazing game with planes/Helicopters(for hunting purposes especially) is not only illegal in B.C., but totally unethical. It don't matter where your born.

Edit: A guide territory in B.C. is NOT private ground(may be it is in MT) it is Crown Land. Some outfitters act like its theirs though. They don't have anymore rights to the land than I have to the land my trapline covers.

RO

RO, you're dead wrong, we'd not whine or point fingers but get into action to change it. Besides, we have many other issues far more serious that threaten our hunting than what you have in BC and that's a fact.

This isn't about us damn foreginers... the problem is your typically liberal Canadian policies. As I said, smart people are opportunist's and take advantage of opportunities presented, just as your fore-fathers did.

It wasn't too many decades ago a sizeable portion of BC was clamoring to suceed from Canada and become a US state. If you think thing's are fugged up now, I can only imagine how bad they'd be if that had happened.

Well, this has about run it's course and has made it clear to me exactly what I (and other B.C. residents) must do. I won't get into the namecalling as it is not important to me what some foreigner thinks, but, I will be in touch with the Vancouver media next week to discuss features on foreign hunting and it's negative effect on B.C.

As to Greenhorn, RiverOtter, don't waste your energy, it is simply not important what he thinks or says and his attitude here actually is what I have learned to expect from Americans involved with exploiting B.C.'s resources.

RO, like Brad said, we got our own issues here. I'm not a fan of the outfitting and guiding industry.. not by a long shot.

My point with the local MT outfitting crew hazing game went over your head. I agree with your comments on it, obviously. The point I was trying to make was these guys were locals.

You can't tell me all your 'born in BC' outfitters are picture-perfect sportsmen and stewards of the land, and the 'born the USA' guys are all complete evil culprits. I'm sure there's good and bad of both strain.

I'll ask again.. was the outfitter reported for hazing the sheep? Was he born in the USA? What was his name?

Or could it possibly been some unsuccessful hunters making up a bullshit story as to why they didn't connect on a sheep?

Kutenay, do what you gotta do.. The rest of us will wait on pins and needles to see the results of your efforts. I'll check in with you on a regular basis here on this USA based web-site. May the force be with you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Also, good luck on bagging that sheep, my condolences to the outfitter that has to take you.

But weren't you supposed to be backpacking?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Yes, the ID on the bottom of the wings were recorded and reported to the C.O. office in the area, thats how it was determined that it was the outfitters plane. Without video footage to show the offence, it was just my two friends word against the outfitters. That is what the C.O. told them directly.
I do not know the name of the outfitter or his/her country of origin, but I would bet my house the hazing was a definate attemp to make sure a sheep was not harvested resident. I would also bet the outfitter was not guiding resident hunters at the time.



You pretty much answered the question yourself. Residents should get priority. G/O's are allotted a certain number of tags for sheep in their area. Our beef is with the Bullchit tactics used to prevent a resident from legally harvesting a sheep within their guide territory. If "outlawing"(as much as I hate that word) foreign hunters is what it takes for things to change in B.C. than so be it. If the opportunity is taken away, then so is the opportunist. Win win for us and if puppet G/O's find themselves without a guide territory, then we're not going to miss the revenue that was getting flown out of the province anyway.


Whatever. And who's the "made of money foriegner" you are talking about? Oh let me guess... anybody who is an outfitter must be wiping their ass with Canadian bills. [/quote]

Anyone setting up a puppet guide territory to make it look locally owned/operated is not starting out in the mail room.

RO

No, I said that I was packing for a hunt, the season doesn't open until Saturday morning and I am leaving then.

I will hunt sheep on my own, as I always do and I will see rams and may shoot one. I see game on about every hunt I go on and often go alone, by choice. I only shoot an animal that I will eat and often go home without killing, again by choice.

I think that you are a foolish guy who really under-estimates people, but, it is not important as you are not involved in B.C. conservation as I have been since 1960; your attempts to denigrate me are simply stupid. So, "pogue mahone" as my Celtic forbearers were wont to say.

What a surprise.
It's called borrow, work, and pray. But regardless of how good the person is, how hard they try, there will always be a few pissants to deal with.

Kutenay, think what you want. Your comments are the only thing that denigrate you. I could give a rats ass what you guys do with your hunting because I got more than I can handle right here.

Your comments along the lines of "your friend's not Canadian and he does not belong here" says a lot about what kind of pinhead you are.

Enough already !!!!

Kutenay,
I know an outfitter in western Wyoming who will only take locals into his area if they sign an affidavit stating they will never go to the area on their on hunts. You may try that tactic with them.
But their reasoning is not as you insinuate nationalistic. They simply don't want to show locals where their lucky honey holes are. I imagine it is the same with ALL of the BC outfitters whether native born or not.
Also, they would probably have no problem taking a residence of say Quebec or Ontario.

Seems like time for a little realism in this thread. I have given and I have taken with Kutenay and now mainly I have chosen to "just understand".

I preface this comment with the above as I do not want it to be taken as another "invitation". If I were an outfitter, born in Anywhere in the World and booking Stone hunts in B.C., and I followed any of these threads. My friend Kutenay calls for a guided Stone hunt, I have to say, self, do I need the pain? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Once again, I'll reiterate, the problem is BC/CANADIAN LAW.

Many concessions in BC are being bought up by wealthy foreginer's (USA, German, etc) who buy them as their personal and private hunting ground with no intention of outfitting them. They fly in on their G5 and go hunt. Seems like when this sort of stuff is going on there's a problem with your laws, not with foreigner's.

Personally, I'm all for the good citizen's of BC having whatever laws and regulation's they want. It's the finest patch of God's earth to be found anywhere and it's incumbent for any citizen of that fine land to clamor for whatever change is required.

Certainly agree with B.C./Canada law leading the way. Seems to me that the area in discussion is small enough to be controlled solely by the govt and not for any outfitter. Again, I know the B.C. folks do not want to hear what the USA does but if these animals are so few in number our govt would simply declare the animals "Endangered" and totally off limits to all hunting UNTIL numbers were sufficent to hunt which is usuall never - and now we are talking really expensive to hunt as in our bighorn sheep, etc. I wish them well and would like to have Kutenay come to Texas and seal off our Southern border for us - we need more people like him fighting the good fight.

I agree with what Brad is saying regarding our current laws, however, the Guide Outfitters Association of B.C. has, especially in recent years, lobbied hard for changes to resident access, bag limits and seasons which will make more game available for their quotas. My interest is in changing these laws and eliminating foreign influence, of all types, in B.C./Canadian resource managment.

The Spatsizi Wilderness Park was created in the early '70s due to pressure from B.C. people, of whom I was one and is some of the most fantastic REAL wilderness left on Earth. All hunting for Stone's Sheep by residents is strictly controlled by Limited Entry and access is also limited by regulation, yet, foreign hunters guided by non-Canadians can and do kill these rare animals there when domestic demand is not being met.

The fact is that B.C. simply cannot meet resident demand for hunting and harvesting of most of our wildlife and very few Canadians can afford to compete with wealthy foreigners for Stone's Sheep, Grizzlies and so forth. The only practical way to ensure that we control and preserve OUR wildlife resources for OUR use is to eliminate ALL foreign hunting and investment in G/O concessions, this will, in turn, eliminate the basis of the lobby that currently militates against residents.

The very idea that I would allow a G/O to decide where and when I can enter a given area is preposterous; I was BORN HERE and my family came here circa 1870. I go where I want and my rights supercede the privileges of foreigners, always.

What others choose to do in their jurisdictions is not my affair, however, this issue is something I have been concerned about for decades. I have been active in our provincial wildlife conservation organization and I have found that many, if not most, B.C. residents are not in favour of foreign hunting or non-native G/Os, this is very prevalent in the Kootenays and the northern regions of B.C., not just in Vancouver.

Times change and people's attitudes also change, there is no particular animus on my part toward hunters from wherever, I am simply doing what I think best for B.C. If, this makes me a ________, well, I have been called lots of ugly names during my years in environmental conservation, "sticks and stones."

I'm curious to the lobbied changes you mention to resident access, bag limits and seasons which will make more game available for ourfitter quotas. Can you provide some specifics?
Are the native membres of the Guide Outfitters Association of B.C. responsible for this? Or just the foriegn members? You recommend BC Stone Sheep outfitters in a portion of this thread, then complain they are ruining it for you elsewhere.

What keeps your from chartering a flight, landing in northern BC, setting up camp and hunting the same sheep hunted by foriegn clients?

Kutenay, this Albertan agrees with you. If there aren't enough game animals for an open season then it should be residents only. If there are enough, then it should be open to citizens. If there are still enough animals, then international tags should be offered. Just because you are willing to pay a ton of cash does not mean that your rights supercede those of the provincial residents (firstly) and citizens (secondly).

Canada needs to stop exporting everything that isn't nailed down (including wildlife) to the US and China. Development of our own economies through the manufacture of goods and development of technology in our nation is the only thing that will keep it from being stripped bare. No one besides Canadians care what is left here when the natural resources are gone. They will just move on to the next place and do the same thing.


SS

I think on the average a guy can hunt a sheep/grizzly combo in the Wrangells for 4-5k less than hunting stones, just as pretty countryside.

But only a stone is a stone,and IMO they are the prettiest of the NA sheep.And if you want a true stone BC is THE place to
go.

They are the best looking of N American sheep. I remember just standing there gazing at the Chadwick #1 Stone on display in the Cody Wy historical center.
But if hospitality is on the wane in BC, the Yukon may be more fun for a hunting vacation.

I wish stone sheep would have been transplanted in the southern rockies rather than those danged ole Canadian wolves.

Since a severe storm front moving across southern B.C. has caused me to postpone my Turkey/Black Bear hunt, due to being unable to get into the actual hunting grounds, I will post on this issue once more.


SamSteele's post is about as fine a declaration of what we Canadians must do as I have ever read. I completely agree and am thankful that Canadians, at long last, appear to be awakening to the threats we face.

The "Chadwick Ram" is in Wyoming and that is an example of what is wrong with the hunting situation in Canada. This trophy belongs in the Royal British Columbia Museum and not in any foreign country. While we cannot redress past errors in allocation, national self-determination and exploitation of Canadian resources, we can certainly prevent these from continuing and that is my entire point. Canadian resources, of all types, must benefit Canadians and only Canadians.

Now, as to Greenhorn's questions, the facts are that the GOABC continually lobbies for increased quotas in areas where there are not sufficient animals to meet current resident demand. An example is the attempt, last year, by the Guide-Outfitters of the Cariboo-Chilcotin to have the Mule Deer bag limit reduced to one for residents; this in order to make more trophy bucks available for their foreign clients. Some of the GOABC members are native-born Canadians while others are Americans and Germans who live here in order to profit by such activities.

The query concerning my chartering a flight has been addressed before, however, I will reiterate. The GOABC members deliberately negotiate exclusive contracts with many/most of the few charter outfits flying in northern B.C. that deny residents flights into choice hunting areas. They then buy up the "packer's licences" and this also denies resident access by making it restricted to the clients of the G/Os in question....and many B.C. working people cannot afford the fees, so, they don't get to hunt while wealthy foreigners do.

Another aspect of this is that I do not think that I, or any B.C./Canadian should have to compete for OUR game with foreign hunters. Allowing this is not being hospitable, it is being self-destructive and it is GOING to STOP. We simply do not have any legitimate reason to allow 183 Stone's Sheep per year to be shot by foreigners while we take only 104.

My recommendations concerning Guide/Outfitters here and when I was on AR, posting on this issue were an act of courtesy directed toward those who politely inquired about this. However, it seems to be seen as a contradictory effort and, in retrospect, perhaps I should not have done this and will not in future.

I believe in local control of resources by citizens of a given nation, based on scientific research. I do not believe that ANY foreigner has the right to enter Canada and buy a G/O concession and then choose to even attempt to restrict resident's hunting.

I think that my first initiative in this respect will be to develop and submit a proposal to end ALL commercial hunting in B.C. Provincial Parks, Wilderness Areas and Protected Areas, except that which is confined to B.C. residents only.

Post deleted by 7 STW

Hey Kutenay, they are missing you on AR,
Where's Kutenay was a thread launched yesterday.
I agree, under no circumstances should there be guaranteed outfitter tags when it takes at least three(sometimes more) to draw for things such as mulie buck or elk in prime areas. Furthermoer, the rules state as a resident I can't even buy the guaranteed tag if the outfitter wanted to sell it to me.

Yeah, "derf" PM'ed me this ayem on one of the very rare times I post on HBC and told me about it. So, it being Good Friday, I thought I would stir the pot a tad and sent him an explanation of what REALLY happened.

I guess that the constant anti-American BS of that bazillionaire whatshisnutz that "owns" AR and his little, pet, lickspittle "moderator" Zionist are O.K., but, a Canadian daring to think that he has any right to an opinion vis-a-vis Canadian foreign/military policy is not. I find the whole thing hilarious, but, if that creep wanted to call me names to my face, I would enjoy the aftermath, he wouldn't.

AR has a great many really fine folks and some REAL gun/hunting experts, but, it seems odd to me that they have such hypocritical standards for freedom of speech. As I am sure you have realized, I did the whole thing just to see how much integrity they have, it seems somewhat deficient.

Anyway, WTF, it ain't too important.

I prefer this site and Canadiangunnutz.com but I am taking my teenager to Africa next year and AR is a great source of info on that subject.
Good luck with your Turkey hunt, I didn't know they had turkeys in BC.

The Gunsmithing forum on AR is in a class by itself and at least they have a specifically Canadian section which is moderated by a decent guy who is a R.P.F. and fun to debate forest science with. I used to do that before I became so old and crochety.

We have mucho Turkeys here and you should be legal to hunt them as non-res. Canucks and I think Yanks also can hunt upland game without a G/O. You can call the boffins in Victoria and check, but, that's how I interpret the regs.

I got into a great donnybrook on CGN for daring to suggest that we in B.C. should maybe share a portion of our wildlife, ie., Stone's, with guys like you from other provinces. Boy, you would have busted a gut laughing at the screaming from so called "guides".....you probably know who I am referring to. But, I would like to see guys from all over Canada have some chance to hunt here without mortgaging their future forever.

Kutenay,
As usual, I agree with you, and I would like to see the arrangement go both ways, as I'd love a crack at an Alberta pronghorn w/o having to hire a guide (I'm pretty sure that non-Albertans have to).

+1

Guys,
We have here in Alberta a program called Hunter host. It only applies to friends and family members, no money can change hands, a non-resident canadian can be hosted by his friend. The NR has to apply in the draws the same way we res have to, we have to hunt together, but you don't need to hire a guide/outfitter. The hunter host is responsible to make sure the non-residetn Canuck follows all the rules etc. It's a great way for mostly realtives from other parts of the country to hunt together. It's somethin more of our provinces should have, I would love to go back to Ontario and hunt moose with the camo I started wiht, but there is no Non-resident season there so I am SOOL

B.C. has a similar system, with a couple requirements a B.C. resident can obtain a "Permit to Accompany" to enable a person from another province(who is a Canadian citizen) to hunt here. This same system can apply to non-Canadians with the exception that the non-Canadian must be an immediate family member of the B.C. resident with the permit. Cousins for example are excluded as well as certain species, thin horn sheep(Stones) being one of them.

I don't have a problem sharing B.C.'s resources with fellow Canadians, as long as the relationship goes both ways. The only exception should be LEH hunting where prefferance should be given to British Columbian's first and surplus draws made available the other provinces.

RO <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And these success numbers stem from how many resident tags, and how many non-resident tags?
I have heard it said that spending more money than you can afford will motivate a guy to get into shape, could that be part of what is going on?

I do not have the exact figures and it is Holy Saturday, so, obtaining these would be a trifle difficult. The MOE here in B.C. is full of bureaucrats who are "buddy-buddy" with the major G/Os and are very secretive about information of this type. The best info. I have comes from a student of wildlife bio. who has an "in" at the Wildlife Branch and he states that in the Skeena Region where both Dall's and Stone's are hunted, usually under strict L.E.H. that 80% of the sheep shot are taken by foreigners, mostly Americans. This is where Brian Martin has a concession, btw.

The comment about "ability" in terms of conditioning is not relevant for two primary reasons; one is that VERY few American, wealthy, middle-aged hunters can even begin to approach the kind of mountain hardened shape that most resident hunters are in. I worked for decades with foresters, biologists, technicians and various other outdoor pros throughout western Canada's mountains and saw this first hand. This is why spotter planes and air-ground radios are used, in order for a young guide to lead a foreign hunter to "his" trophy.

But, the really important point is that the game in question is OURS and tags for any foreign hunters should not EVER compete with ANY resident hunter's opportunity. Given the restricted access in the areas under discussion, the use of aircraft and radios and the disgusting behaviour of some G/Os with respect to resident's rights, the only acceptable option is to ban foreign hunting.

I expect that this will happen in about 2011-2015 and maybe sooner. Many of the residents concerned about this are not yet as sophisticated as the members-executive of SCI, FNAWS, RMEF, DU and other foreign-based hunter's groups; thus, they need time to organize and better understand the political process relevant to the objective. But, there are people, like me, who have been very successful in the "War in the Woods" and are determined to change the current unjust situation in Canadian resource managment/allocation.

IF, as I have said, I were a foreign hunter who wanted to hunt B.C., I would do it now as there are so many pressures on the entire resource situation, as there are in the NWT/Yukon that the costs will skyrocket very soon and the opportunity itself will be gone before long. I just read a blurb by former NWT Premier (aka Governor) Stephen Kwakfi which bemoans the current imbroglio in resource exploitation/managment "way up North" and I can see the end in sight.

Within what remains of my lifetime, I am almost 60, I expect to see B.C. hunting for residents diminish considerably and this is due to the "Land Claims" of the Aborigines; they WILL attempt to increase high-dollar foreign hunting, sheep hunts as in old Mexico, BUT, the resident back-lash will soon end it and I doubt that anything can prevent this.

I don't doubt your facts, but attitudes like yours could take over anywhere there is international hunting. Colorado, Wyoming, Mexico, Africa, Sweden, Finland, South Texas, Alaska.
Whenever folk see scarcity, as in there is only so much pie and it happens to be just enough for we'uns and that means there will never be enough for you'uns.

Leftists in your country and all over the world are trembling in readiness to share resources and rush in to help any cause, any time, if they can take away a reason for you to have a gun, and give them an opportunity to impose their will! Even using aborigines is not above them.

If, ANYBODY is "using" the Indians here in Canada, it is the multi-national corporations, especially those with an economic base in natural resources. The "leftists", poor misguided souls, are BEING USED by the Indians/Eskimos and THAT conundrum is the basis for our current problems.

You might note that I DO NOT even attempt to make a case for my being allowed to hunt in Alaska, ( I can't imagine why a B.C. resident would WANT to hunt anywhere else in the U.S.) and European, African and other foreign destinations are simply not of interest to me. I think that ALASKANS first and then other AMERICANS next, have the right to determine who does/does not hunt in Alaska.

Frankly, given the over-populated state of your country and what is happening on your southern border, I think that AMERICANS should absolutely reserve what little wilderness hunting you have left, ESPECIALLY Alaska, for yourselves, you are damned fools if you don't, IMHO, of course.

You might also note that EVERY Canadian who has posted on this thread has AGREED with my position and almost every hunter I have discussed this with over the past two decades has felt the same way, or, is more opposed to ALL foreign hunting than I am. Canada is not a place where there is ...international hunting...; THAT is the point, we are a sovereign nation with great resources and most of us now choose to allocate these differently than in past years, as is our inalienable right.

In a world of increasing human populations and rapidly diminishing resources, there will be fewer opportunities for most people to hunt. In Europe and much of Asia, only the really wealthy can hunt and private land, comparatively expensive "hunting" for usually exotic species is now the norm in much of the U.S.A.

Contrary to the apparent attitude of many foreigners concerning Canada, we are not a backward nation of snow-bound igloo and log cabin dwellers; more and more of us realize EXACTLY what we have here and fully intend to avoid the errors in management so obvious in other nations, the U.S.A. included.

IF, we continue with high-dollar, Guide-Outfitter exclusive hunts for rare animals AND allow both foreign ownership of these concessions and "de facto" preference through quotas for wealthy foreign hunters, we will create exactly the type of "private" enclaves for the wealthy hunter that exist in Europe. WE have NO bloody intention of doing that and thus are going to change things here, now, while there is still a chance.

Where I grew up, HUGE tracts of forest land were quietly sold to a German forestry firm circa 1970. This area is full of fish and game and we locals hunted, fished, cut firewood and picniced there for decades and considered it "our" land. The German "owners" immediately banned ALL hunting, free access to fishing, firewood cutting and even berry picking and hiking. They then had log cabins built on some of the alpine lakes and began to bring in rich Krauts to fish and even hunt deer, out of season.

Local people complained amd both the Krauts AND local government boffins essentially said "tough schitt". Well, in a tiny hamlet close by lived retired hardrock miner, native son of the Kootenays, "Jeff" who replied that he had several pieces of shrapnel in his body from when the "Old Red Patch", the First Canadian Infantry Division, kicked the crap out of the Hermann Goering Division of the S.S. in Italy and HE WOULD GO where he wanted in that area, Krauts, laws or WTF else.

This is one of many incidents I know of and have been directly involved in concerning the growing change in Canadian attitudes about our land. It is not just my attitude, it is the way things are and gun banning or stopping resident hunting have nothing to do with it. Ya know, old "Jeff" WOULD have used his Lee-Enfield on those Squareheads.....so would most other Canucks, that's just the way we are.

Kutenay- I am canadian as well, and appreciate your passion on these subjects, well done. I agree with all of your above posts, I hope that you are correct that in the near future, things are going to swing in the favour of resident BC hunters,

One question - Why did you mention Bryan Martin in your above post, did I miss something?

Maxx, read the posts by "greenhorn", starting around page 3.

RO

thanks, will do.

One of the things I think our American friends on here miss in this debate is the way the outfitters get there tags. I looked into an antelope hunt in Montana and was very surrised to find out ( on this site) that the outfitters weren't granted guaranteed tags. Outfitting in Canada the outfitters area lotted a certain # of tags to be sold to non resident hunters, even in areas and for species that it might take me 5 or 10 years to draw a tag. To me this is the biggest issue on this subject, and it is quite different from the way it is down south, where I have to apply year after year, just like the local. In Alebrta or BC if you had enough money you could hunt trophy sheep every year if you are a non resident while it might take me 10 years to draw a tag in the best areas.

martinbns you are right on! What I have a problem with is what "foreigner" wants to pay, year after year, the $30,000 mordida it takes to "buy" an outfitter tag to hunt a stone for instance? Now, having said that I do know for instance a hunter/wife team in the great brush country of S. Texas who pay $10-20,000 each year to get their names on the "contest boards" for whitetail, so I suppose there are those who plop down the $30,000/yr to hunt the Stone! Crazy world we both live in! One thing I have had a problem in coming to grips with thru all these posts is just how many B.C. hunters buy a license each year vs. numbers of Stones taken? Also, I have seen few posters on these threads who don't agree with our Canadian friends that they should be "first in line". In Texas for instance we have probably 90% individual owner hunting country and 10% divided between State of Texas and USA owner lands. Some of the State/Federal land have draw hunts for individuals where a "resident of Texas" has less than a 2% chance of drawing a tag. If you want to hunt you pay individuals who own ranches a "trespass fee", a "day hunt fee", etc. For those of us who pay the "trespass fee" we have seen the fees grow from "free" for friends in the '60's to $10+/ac. today for the same deer! Yes, hunters are their own worst enemy! I have learned a lot from these posts and realize we all are fighting for the same but different rights to hunt. Sharing our pain and turning the pain into positive action can only be a good thing.

The big difference between BC or Alberta and Texas is all the crown land, all these outfitters operate on and get preferential tags on federally owned land.

To all you Canadian posters,
As I see if, your beef ISN'T with the non-resy hunters, its with your own government that gives tags to the outfitters! To that end you either have to stop giving out the numbers of guaranteed tags or greatly reduce them. Essentially greatly curtail the guiding business. The non-resy hunters are only taking advantage of what is available.

A couple of years ago, the "Vancouver Sun" published a full-colour frontpage photo of a foreign hunter, in this case a Yank from, IRRC, Oregon who had a fine trophy Stone's ram posed with him. When interviewed by the reporter, he stated that THIS was his 25TH wild sheep, many of them shot in B.C.

The reporter then asked him why ANYONE would EVER WANT to shoot so many of these magnificent creatures; this guy replied that he was rich, a self-made millionaire from "development" and could thus afford to do this as it "is a rich man's game". In short, what his ego and his obscene greed want is more important than Canadian resources, Canadian citizens or any reasonable form of sportsmanship; this IS NOT the first situation of this type that I have seen.

To correct an obvious misunderstanding, this is NOT about hunters having a place to hunt and all that BS; this is about conservation, NAFTA, the Northwest Passage, the Garrison Diversion, the Dixon Entrance and all the rest, Hans Island included. It is time that Canadians take our country back....any way we have to.

I am tired of "No Trespassing" signs on property where I used to hunt, now "owned" by rich Doctors in Georgia (The Steeples Ranch in the E. Kootenays); of being unable to walk on Gulf Island beaches because some rich Hollywood "actor" decides to "buy" them and doesn't "like" Canadians on "his" beach. These are only two of scores of incidents where FOREIGNERS think that they can tell people, like me, whose ancestors built Canada where we may and may not go in OUR country.

Yes, we have to curtail the G/O industry, I have said exactly that here repeatedly. The way to do that is to eliminate the source of their funding which they use to lobby government by cutting off the supply of high-paying clients, ergo, ban foreign hunting in B.C., the Yukon and NWT.

The resident "mom & pop" outfits can still make a reasonable living catering to Canadian residents who want outfitted hunts for whatever reason, BUT, the 25 sheep type landrapers and the often foreign-owned G/Os that serve them will be GONE, and bloody high time, too.

This is going to be an unpleasant battle, maybe even a dangerous one with confrontations of a physical type quite possible; we REAL Canadians will win, any old way we must, cause this is OUR land!

Wow. Spend some time from a computer for the holiday weekend, come back and you're still preaching about us damn evil foreigner yank bastards.

You need to get out more, as it would be sad to loose that "mountain hardened shape that most resident hunters are in." It would be a shame to not be ready for your "unpleasant battle, maybe even a dangerous one with confrontations of a physical type" You crack me up.

Hey kutenay, some of us are damn proud to be from the good ol USA.

Good luck with your mission of ending foreign hunting. You'll need it. Meanwhile, keep advertising for the outfitters there who are taking all the people you hate so much. You're an odd one, no doubt.

PS.. I sent those two backpacks to a good friend up that way. I'm confident they will have plenty of blood from B.C. game on them in no time at all.

You seem to have difficulty with accepting the right of Canadians to determine our own policy concerning our country; nobody said anything about ...damn evil foreign yank bastards..., except you. But, keep it up, every mouthy, ignorant comment you make helps me to convince what few Canadians left who "might" have any patience left for non-resident hunters that my ideas are right.

As to being ...odd..., how is it that you get so annoyed about this, when you tell us how you have such great hunting in Montana and don't even want to come here? Your logic is as faulty as your spelling and whatever you did with your backpacks hardly concerns me.

Talk to your "friend" and ask him if HE thinks that your ignorance and loud mouth are going to help him keep his operation here. I rather doubt that ANY non-native G/O is interested in alienating or antagonizing B.C. residents...but, you would know more about B.C. than I do, your kind always does.

Are you talking? Or are you still sucking on that crack pipe?

I really do hope that Canadians can determine their own hunting guidelines/regulations.. it should be their right.

Just like it's my right to comment on you being a pompous ass with your generalizations about Americans.

Nighty night, don't let the bed bugs bite.

Greenhorn, your just trolling around trying to stir up chit, because Kutenay hurt your feelings by not concurring with you when you said your bud brian marten was the best guide in B.C.

Kutenay's first posts on this topic were quite diplomatic and any B.C. resident(Or any other Canadian) has the right to be happy when the balance starts to tip in their favor. No one has said Americans(or any other nation, for that matter) are bad people, although you seem hell bent on winning the title of "most stereotypical American".

RO

Martinbns,
It is good to see an open mind with a grasp towards solving a problem among sportsmen concerning the forums favorite sport. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
To me it is as Brad said a problem with Canadian laws but you can easily see the problem could be fixed by omitting foreign or outfitter preference.
Although I want to hunt in Saskatchewan and Alberta, I have no desires to go to BC at all. I was only sounding for the depths of Kutenay's negativity towards Americans. Even though you pointed out the problem, to him the only soulution is banning Americans to put a bandage on his jealousy for having lived his life in BC without raising a hair on a sheeps a**.

Why thank you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Every now and then I can string together a sentence. Sometimes they even say what I mean...


SS

I just ran across something which might shed some additional light (and hopefully not additional heat) on this subject. It is from an essay by a fellow named Michael De Alessi, who is described as a "director of natural resource policy for the Los Angeles-based Reason Foundation". I apologize in advance for the length of this post.

In his piece, De Alessi is writing about a guy named John Wamsley in Australia who took a "market based" approach to conservation. Wamsley created a for profit company (called Earth Sanctuaries) whose idea was to protect endangered species by establishing protected properties where eco-tourists could come and see them (and, of course, stay at onsite hotels, buy trinkets at the gift shop, eat at the onsite restaurants, etc., etc.) De Alessi writes that while Earth Sanctuaries successfully re-introduced 25 mammal species into Australia, the company ultimately failed because "it could not control a crucial component of its most valuable resources - the right to sell them." This was because "in many countries, it is illegal to trade in endangered species."

Here are the lines from the essay that I think are most applicable to this thread:

"Putting a price on animals does, at first glance, seem like a recipe for disaster. Indeed, it does spell disaster for a species that no one OWNS [emphasis in original]. Yet when natural capital is owned, it attains a higher value and spurs greater efforts to protect it.

Such is the case in New Zealand's fisheries, where a system of tradable fishing quotas assigns ownership to a percentage of a total commercial catch. Therefore, when fish populations increase, so does the annual tonnage that accrues to each quota. These quotas are among the largest assets owned by New Zealand's fishing companies, the value of which is determined by the expected future health of the fishery. Any short-term gains from over-harvesting are offset by a long-term devaluation of the quota value."

As it applies to the situation with BC Stone's, I would tend to believe that the population would better be managed by folks with a vested financial interest in making sure that there are as many of them as possible (the G/Os), as opposed to government bureaucrats (I have in mind the old saying that when everyone owns something (i.e., it is owned by the government), then nobody owns it, and, accordingly, nobody cares for it).

I know this doesn't address the issue kutenay and other have raised about physical access to the sheep, harassment, etc., but I believe it does provide some food for thought.

Well if that were true then Stones Sheep would not be down
40% by Kute's figures.

That's like groundfish on the East coast.The fishing industry is
in bed with gvt on policy...Look how good Cod are doing.
FUBAR.

I can see where you're coming from to a point, as far as residents are concerned. When it comes to rich aliens, they just move on to greener pastures when the easy buck is gone. "Opportunists" I beleive someone here called them.
The evidence is already laid out in black and white by the G/O's lobbying to squeeze out the resident hunters so they can hord the remaining animals for their rich clients; Mostly foreign. No one in B.C. wants to gamble with the G/O's being left to their own devices in hopes of them making the best decision for the environment, especially with the kind of money handed over for a chance at a stone's sheep.

The bottom line is, there are less and less Canadians who are foolish enough to beleive that the outside world would have any use for us if not for our vast RESOURCES.

RO

[quote
The bottom line is, there are less and less Canadians who are foolish enough to beleive that the outside world would have any use for us if not for our vast RESOURCES.
RO [/quote]

Oh come on now that ain't so. You have some actresses that I really like, Lisa Ryder comes to mind as well as the singer Ann Murray.
When I was in Canada the people seemed friendly enough.

Mercy, gotta put Shania in there! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

History has shown that the market based approach proves shows nothing more than man's incredible greed and lack of foresight. Shall we discuss the market-based effect back in the 1800's and early 1900's on the passenger pigeon, whitetail deer, elk, bison, and waterfowl?

John G:

I am neither an historian nor an economist, but I believe that the examples you cite actually SUPPORT an ownership / market-based approach. Remember these lines from De Alessi's essay:

"Putting a price on animals does, at first glance, seem like a recipe for disaster. Indeed, it does spell disaster for a species that no one OWNS [emphasis in original]. Yet when natural capital is owned, it attains a higher value and spurs greater efforts to protect it."

The bison, passenger pigeon, etc. would seem to be perfect examples of species that had economic value but that nobody owned. They were simply there for the taking, and taken they were, until they were nearly or actually exterminated.

If, in the 1860s and 1870s, bison were treated the same way as horses and cattle, then I have no doubt "buffalo rustlin'" would have been every bit as much of a hanging offense as cattle rustling or horse thievery.

Translation: The RICH get to hunt for a price, and residents without big wallets can go F___ their hat.

That is where we are heading right now if the G/O's have their way.

RO

"Translation: The RICH get to hunt for a price, and residents without big wallets can go F___ their hat."

Exactly, River.

I guess this is the comment that we should expect from this poster; fortunately, the majority of us are capable of discussing difficult/controversial issues such as this with mutual respect and courtesy.

I do NOT, as it happens, entertain any ...negativity...toward Americans and am not totally opposed to Americans enjoying Canada's wilderness/wildlife. I AM absolutely determined to do everything I can to further the cause of both Canadian control of our land/resources and conservation. To that end, I have been in contact with the Ministry and am determining exactly what is happening before making public statements about this issue; I expect that it will take several months before the APP is finally resolved.

To any of the B.C. guys posting here, I am attending the HACS show on Sat. ayem and many of the regular dealers know me; I would enjoy meeting any of you that may attend and someone can point me out.

Ever think about taking up politics? You'd fit the mold well. Check out these neat pictures. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I have no objection to Americans enjoying Canada, but, foreign hunting of rare species like Stone's Sheep and some others is simply no longer viable. But, this is for me and people like me to decide and really is not your affair; you are a deskpilot with both a loud mouth and an offensive attitude. You have NOTHING to offer in this thread and you can rant all you want, it means squat.

To reply to your edit with the pictures; there is an old "Canadien" saying, "That time will come, which is not yet, when I'll bite him, by whom I'm bit". Wait.

In case you haven't noticed, you've spewed more than 4 times as much as me on this subject, yet make a remark about ME ranting. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Hey, what do ya think of those American girls putting the smack down on a BC stone sheep? ..and with an American born outfitter no less. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Meanwhile you sit back, whimpering and doing something to your hat. Sad, very sad. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

The pricey stone sheep hunts have not been a serious consideration for me. I have always considered it an elitist thing. You know like fishermen needing a trophy sailfish that they didn't eat, that sort of thing.
But now if even little girls can do it, I feel better about permanently ditching the expensive idea.

Actually, I like American girls, but, "gentlemen never tell".

I agree with most of what Kutenays is saying..

Thereis somethign wrong when the Guides have 53% of the available Sheep tags.

I beleive that if there is a speicies that a resident must APPLY for a tag for, then the outfitter shoudl not have any tags allocated to them.

What the government has to get through thier thick heads is that residents spend more money on hunting in BC than non residents, and it gets left here. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I have been called names on this thread and my opinions, based on decades of both professional and recreational experience in western Canada's wilderness/wildlife regions have been mocked by Greenhorn, among others. This individual is, according to Brad, a fine fellow, as is the American assistant guide Bryan Martin who actually owns Canadian Mountain Outfitters although a scion of an American family, Dawson Deveny, holds the Guide-Outfitters licence.

Well, I guess that a mere Canuck should not presume to voice his opinion on such matters, especially since Greenhorn, who has never been here, knows so much about it; but, I wonder how he feels about the fact that Bryan Martin CANNOT hold a G/Os licence here due to two minor problems.

The first is that he does NOT qualify under the residency requirements which is a matter of concern in itself as B.C. expects G/Os to meet certain criteria. Bryan, simply does not live here enough to make the cut.

However, the REAL problem is that Bryan Martin has been CONVICTED of several serious breaches of the B.C. Wildlife Act stemming from infractions in 1999, when he began ...living his dream... in MY Province and also in 2001. He was sentenced in Smithers, B.C. last June and CANNOT hold a G/O's licence due to this.

Is THIS the kind of man and the sort of behaviour that we B.C'ers should put up with, just so Greenhorn can boast about Yanks killing B.C. Stone's Sheep among other game? Greenhorn asked for specific details concerning malfeasance by Americans with G/O territories here and, gee whiz, it's his wonderful buddy that is one of the worst offenders.

Martin and those like him will be gone within a few years and the sooner, the better. We are going to totally re-vamp B.C. hunting and get rid of azzholes, like Martin, who weasel their way in here and then hold our laws in contempt as demonstrated by his actions shortly after he arrived in B.C. If, anyone thinks that this info. is not factual, call the C.O. in Smithers, B.C. or the Wildlife Media people in Victoria, B.C.

Yeah, trying to save our wildlife from this type of thing is "greedy", sure it is. Frankly, I know of a number of other, similar incidents involving persons not native to B.C. and I think that anyone convicted of such crimes should be deported and all their B.C. assets forfeited to the Crown.

Good post Kute.
Figured you would find out a bit more about B.C.'s #1 Guide.

Now I'm wondering if those sheep posted earlier were harvested legally.

RO

That is the first thing that comes to mind when someone is convicted of breaking wildlife laws.
I remember a few years ago a guy named Kirt Darner had half a dozen B&C mule deer racks at a gunshow. I was impressed enough to buy his damn book, then later found out he had harvested them at night on winter range.
I am not saying a sheep guide did anything, it just causes some wonder?

I also bought that book, still have it and I always kinda wondered because I spent much time working in the same occupation he claimed to be in. This type of thing is MUCH more common than most decent non-res. hunters realize and it is NOT confined to G/Os who were not born here. The problem is, as you very correctly pointed out, the elitist aspect of the whole situation as it is presently configured and THAT is what I want to change.

Sheep hunting is damned hard sluggin' and ...little girls... seldom are really up to it. I supervised and trained some of the very first female treeplanters and firefighters in B.C.; I have worked with some women who would just amaze you, but, most of them are not up to backpack sheep hunting.

Whenever I hear about some guy who is new to B.C. and is just some "super hunter", I get suspicious as I have known many of the most famous Outfitters, Wildlife Biologists and even bushmen who started before WWI; my experience is that the "supermen" USUALLY are as much BS as substance. I think that a much more restrictive policy as to who can become B.C. G/Os would benefit the wildlife, residents and also non-residents and this is what I want to see happen.

IF, we have game to spare after Canadian sporting, NOT commercial, demand is met, then I have no issues with sharing that with U.S., U.K., or ANZAC hunters AND on a basis where ordinary guys get a shot at it. Many people are descended from Europeans who came to North America to escape the "rich only" hunting policies of most Euro. nations; I do NOT want those to be re-instated here in B.C. by anyone, especially the likes of Bryan Martin....and I bet you agree.

There will never be any game to spare.

It will be kinda sad if you get your way. All of the fine hunting in BC and the rest of the world not being able to go there or even being interested in reading about it or hearing about something they will never have a hope of a chance of experiencing.
Sort of like the fine sheep hunting in Iran, but who f*****g cares?

The difference of perceptions is some of what Martinbns mentioned, the difference in outfitters not having any allocations.
For example in Colorado or New Mexico a small portion of tags are set aside for non-res purposes. They are very expensive in comparison to resident tags. They have drawings and the hunter gets a tag or does'nt. If he is unsuccesful in Colorado he gets a bonus point towards next years drawings. I have 3 points built up now and will eventually get a tag for Coloradio eastern plains.
In New Mexico there is no preference point build up. Everyone that wants a non-res tag starts from scratch each year, I prefer this.
But the outfitters have nothing to do with it whatsoever, they only take people who were succesfully in the drawing.

IF, people like me do not get our way, there will be NO sheep or other hunting here in B.C. for ANYBODY within a very short time; the Aboriginals, PETA's and general public indifference to sports hunting plus ferocious resource "development" will put an end to it.

But, your are entitled to your own opinion, even though you have no actual knowledge of the situation or even a desire to hunt here. IF, and it's a damned big IF, the conservationist-resident-sportsman philosophy succeeds in preventing the G/Os from completely controlling B.C. hunting, a system such as that in some western states might well evolve, as I have repeatedly posted. However, the G/Os will fight against this AND this will reserve ANY non-resident hunting here to ONLY the very rich; this, in turn, will alienate most B.C. people who will demand that ALL non-res. hunting be shutdown.

I honestly doubt that you really appreciate exactly how much antagonism exists here NOW toward non-resident trophy hunting. My attitudes might not jibe with yours, BUT, I am in the field and I SEE and HEAR what is happening here and base my opinions on that.

Well I had desires and dreams to hunt for Stones about 25 years ago when I was still young enough to have been able to get into good enough shape for that kind of enduro.
But it was too expensive @ $10k (1980 dollars) for a BC or Yukon Stone/Grizzly combo with my kid's college years ahead.
And yes I can understand resident hunters resentment building up if the outfitters have been politically beating them up. Although I would hope they would know who to vent their frustrations against because the problems are with their own laws.

Blaming Americans for Canadian wildlife rules may be a natural first instinct. But it makes no more sense and is just as off target as Americans blaming Canadian workers for American car companies closing American plants and re-opening plants in Canada. And then the American government allowing imported autos to enter without a tarriff to bring the prices up to or greater than the cost of American made cars. Yes I am sure that is the fault of Canadians who accept jobs from American companies, right?

The origin of this thread was about my pleasure at the changes to the usual way things have been done here concerning conservation by a business-friendly government; this bodes well for making the changes I deem necessary to the B.C. laws that you mention. It also may indicate that this gov't. MAY be listening to other stakeholders in this situation than the G/Os, who are oftimes partially or fully owned by Americans; this is the basis of my concern about Americans hunting here.

There are various methods available to we B.C. residents to keep what is ours and ONE of these is to eliminate foreign, not just American, hunting here; this will, in turn, curtail the financial aspect of the G/Os current lobbying power and make things better for those of us who own these animals. My concerns about Americans are no different than my concerns about any other foreign involvement in B.C. resource management as I have repeatedly said.

This is not about "blame", it is about doing what is best for Canada, our people and our resources, whatever that may be.

Where are all Brian's friends??????

I thought we would have heard from the defence by now.

Greenhorn.............where art thou.

RO

Chuckle!!!!

Interesting write-up in this month's "The Hunting Report" about Fannins and their Dall/Stone relationship, if anyone is interested. The article is based on the new genetic mapping study that conflicts with was done previously. I think Kutenay alluded to this earlier.

I've been out for a week and not surprised to see this one still going. Kutenay, you've made several untrue statements about a friend of mine and even go as far as to refer to him as an azzhole. You should be ashamed of yourself. Would you have the courage to do that in person?

As I said before, I know very little about BC hunting, but I do know Bryan. He CAN and DOES hold a BC guides license and nothing by any BC law is keeping him from holding an outfitter�s license. His has a partner who holds the outfitter license for other reasons, having to do with keeping great help, and allowing him to legally guide/hunt in areas other than his own concession. Perhaps you should contact him in person so he can flesh out the details for you.

I know Bryan well enough to say he would never intentionally commit a hunting or guiding violation. The bottom line is he is an A+ person, and a very successful stone sheep guide. Do some research on his client success over the last 3 years and compare it with any other BC outfitter.

He�s a Yank, but now a resident of BC and his clients will continue to be nearly 100% successful on taking stone sheep in BC. Those with fat bellies and limited ambition, and lacking the rewards of successful stone sheep hunting will continue to whine �

........................................

Greenhorn, You state that you know very little about B.C. hunting and that is certainly the case. You are also a loudmouth, as other B.C. residents on this thread have told you and your implied threat to me is laughable. I certainly WOULD say anything to your face or to your damyankee, azzhole, CRIMINAL buddy's face that I have said here and I think that the others here would do so, as well.

NOW, phone C.O. Kevin Nixon, in Smithers, B.C., 250-847-7262 and ASK him about the charges, convictions and penalties that your friend has incurred due to his violations of the B.C. Wildlife Act. He holds an Assistant Guide's Licence and that is ALL he has; there may well be further action by resident hunters to see that this is revoked.

Let me tell you that YOU and YOUR KIND are NOT wanted here in B.C. and, should you be foolish enough to venture into OUR country, you will very likely experience Canadian reaction to lawbreaking, loudmouth foreigners. Martin and any other foreign scumbag who comes to B.C. and thinks he can break our laws IS going to get his ass busted, wait and see.

Kuteney, You sure type tough. My guess is you were once azzfcuked by an American hunter who was toting a full curl set of Stone Sheep horns on his backpack.

One simple question, deskpilot, are you going to phone the B.C. Conservation Officer Service and get the truth, or, are you just going to imply that the C.O. I referred you to is untruthful and your pal is the paragon you say he is? MY guess is that you are simply trying to stir up schitt, because you know damm well that Martin is a CRIMINAL.

Your implications concerning American hunters probably do not impress your fellow Yanks on this thread; you are the only one who has posted homoerotic comments......bit of a "Freudian slip"????

Pretty much sums up your level of maturity.

I don't know/care enough about the rest of the yabble to comment.

My 7 year olds have even matured (mostly <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) beyond the "it's mine, all mine and you CAN'T have ANY or I'll pitch a fit" stages.

Seriously, close your borders and see where that leaves you. Used to be a time when us piss ant Americans would have missed your beer. Not any more and not by a long shot! Not meant to be a jab at our brothers up North, but you'd be screwed.

From a hunting perspective, we'd miss stone sheep and maybe a variation or two of caribou? BFD. I'll be happy as hell hunting everything but right here in the good ol' USA.

Note: I've done a couple Canadian bear hunts. They're fun! But it sure wouldn't hurt "us" the way it'd hurt "you" to take that away from us foreigner pigs.

So, close out the Americans, we'll close out the Canadians and we'll see who spends the most time bitchin about economies and folded businesses! You are quite dependent on the US and it pisses you off!!!

Seriously, except for the French part <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, I LOVE Canada and the Canadians.

That kind of crap in the quote though, is good for NOTHING! Certainly not our favorite sport.

Kutenay, come back and throw a big on-line maple leaf smoking ceremony when one of two things happens. 1) When non-residents are banned from hunting, or 2) when my pal cannot guide a stack of hunters to Stone Sheep and a [bleep] of other big game in BC.

Until then, I'll continue to share his wealth of successes with American clients here on this American web-site... while you sit at home and pout because you are too fat and incompetent to harvest a good ram in your own province.

Check this one out. Some nasty non-residents nailed him.


And kutenay, I realize this Marco Polo wasn't taken in BC. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I believe the guy in the middle pays careful attention to and is sure to document how many days he spents outside the BC province of Canada these days.

As a BC resident and Stone's sheep addict let me just add that Kutenay does NOT speak as an Ambassador of British Columbia!

For the record... a good buddy of mine is close personal friends with Bryan Martin... and speaks the world of him!

Convicted - yes..... but Kutenay - lighten up and GROW UP!!!!!

I cannot sit around any longer watching you make an embarassment of British Columbians!

Talk is cheap and anybody can spout off gear reviews on the internet and claim to have worn out dozens of packs and boots and rifles......

The fact that you've been banned from TWO Canadian internet hunting sites speaks for itself!

I highly doubt you've even hunted Stone's sheep (maybe from the pickup).

Sorry, but your gig is up... time to grow up or shut up..... you are making a mockery of yourself and dragging British Columbia's resident hunters down with you with your Anti-American rhetoric and racial innuendo, and I for one have had enough!!!!!

280_ACKLEY

280
So Bryan Martin was convicted as claimed?
On what exactly do you know?

Richard,

Why don't you say EXACTLY the SAME things about "loud, fat Americans" on this forum that you repeatedly posted on Canadiangunnutz, for example. You are VERY young, full of yourself and your continual boastful posting of photos of the animals that you have shot demonstrates your immature egotism very clearly.

As to my experience, it is exactly what I have posted and I do not find it necessary to badmouth ANYONE who does not attack me first. Perhaps you could also post the never-ending boasting and continual fighting with several other posters that you childishly indulge in on CGN? Your hypocrisy is simply amazing, just as your frequent attempts to pose as an experienced bush expert are obvious.

As to Martin and your buddy, that is absolutely irrelevant, the fact is, as the CO clearly said, this foreigner WAS convicted of a crime in B.C. and this should concern every resident hunter, even a braggart like you. Now, sonny, take your own advice and try to act like an adult. BTW, your frequent attempts to denigrate me here have been noticed, I find a young punk like you amusing....AND, I have NEVER made the kind of claims that you accuse me of, but, you seem to have these problems with many people on a number of forums, not surprising.

Maybe not as Kutenay claims (Dewey makes it sound like he poached the last remaining Stone's sheep and grizzly left in the province and sold their parts on the black market <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />)

But yes, he was convicted, but it basically boiled down to being a BC resident or not. He travels the globe guiding, and the Court's idea of residency and his were a little different.... so he "technically" wasn't a resident (but hunted as one).

He is a highly respected sheep guide in BC... he knows his chitt and is as "hard core" as they come. I respect the guy and look forward to hopefully meeting him when he comes through town this year on his way up north.

280_ACKLEY

Further to this, I have posted info. regarding the facts in this case here for anyone to check for themselves. I have said everything that I think will do any good here and will now refrain from further comment on this issue here on 24Hr.

Those who cannot disagree without indulging in personal attacks have demonstrated that this type of forum is not as useful for discussing serious hunting-related issues as one would hope; too bad, most of the posters have acted in good faith as I have, but, there is no point in continuing with this.

Two thousand years ago, people started their own village because of people like Kutenay.

Anti-Americanism ain't my cup o' tea.... you must be referring to the comment I made on the topic of a pimped out Weatherby rifle one time. Yup... a glossy laser engraved pimped out WBY reminds me of something an overweight obnoxious Texas oil tycoon would pack.... so what? Belive it or not Dewey, I am 1/2 american pedigree... 90% of my family still hail from the US of A!



Typically I post the pics during a topic (when others are posting theirs as well). I love pics that others post... and know most appreciate pics also.

I think the point that makes you most jealous is that I have spent time in the moutains hunting rams with the "Foreigners" and have pics.... doubt you could get yourself up a mountain at your age (and bet the only time you've even spent on a mountain was in the lookout tower you drove/choppered into).



Being kicked off 2 sites (that I know of... maybe more) in a short time would seem very unfair for a fella that minds his own business. Sorry that you have been singled out and picked on by the the bullies (always seems to happen to those that don't deserve it) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />



I don't claim to get along with everyone! As for boasting.... glad you're reading my material..... good to see I still have a devoted following <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



I have spend a little time afield but certainly make no claim to be an expert (or I wouldn't frequent these forums reading and asking questions). As for "posing"... you my friend are the epitome of a "Poser"... even your handle on the other boards "Kutenay Mountain Boy".



I think it is relevant when you call a guy a scum and few other derogatory names, attacking his character without him present to defend himself, when in fact every body who knows him speeks volumes of him!

Even your use of the term "foreigner" when talking about Americans has a derogatory tone!



You've made claims alright, some which are the topic of discussion to this day on CGN....

All that aside, your racist/anti "foreigner" views shine through in much of what you post.

I simply am tired of reading it.... especially when you speak as though all of British Columbia is behind you!

They are I guess..... kicking you in the azz....off of every Canadian website you inhabit!

280_ACKLEY

I see enjoying the wilderness as similiar to enjoying a woman.
Great for visiting, but trouble comes when we try to own them.

Trying to hoard all of the wilderness is similar to trying to hoard all of the women around you. It can't happen because it is un-natural and will lead a guy to behave in the particular style of defensiveness that causes him to be referred to as the "ole koot" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In that spirit...I don't want them all.Just Eva Longoria,Jennifer Anniston and Cindy Crawford.