Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game B.C. Stone's Sheep-some good news

O.K., I am not buying ANY more "Alaska Fish Fertilizer", NO MORE! The impact on the Alaska economy will be fearsome, my roses will wilt and hang their lovely heads in sorrow, BUT, boy, no more Alaska fish poop for me!!!!

That'll fix 'em!!!!

rstokes,
A couple of points on BC oil/gas exploration. The Stone sheep have a very small area they live in and apparently are very vulnerable to roads. The natural resources in Canada belong to the provinces, not the federal govt. In Alberta, the provincial govt gets all the royalties form Oil&gas, and control the exploration. Same in BC, The major's are currently drilling allover northeastern BC, this riling has had a profound effect on accessibility of wildlife. With accessibility comes hunter success. BC is a fairly 'green" province to begin with, but if you were to poll Albertan's if they wanted to ban foreign Hunters the vote would oeverwelminly be in favour. Typically American's vastly overestimate the importance of nonresident hunting to our overall economies. Almost nowhere in Alberta or Northeastern BC is there any unemployment, there are very few jobs dependent on nonresident hunting if any. Our economies are booming, in particular Alberta's.
I competely agree with Kutenay, no way should nonresident hunters get preference over resident's here or in Arizona for that matter.

I totally agree with you that the local residents should get the preference in hunting, fishing and all the other rights and perks that come with being a resident in that particular Province or Nation; it shouldn't be any other way. I completely agree with his assessment on the wildlife situation in BC. I'm just saying that when it comes to oil production, the whole world is tethered to that greasy pipeline. We all need to bust our ass to wean ourselves from this situation. My position is simply that the entire global economy can fall like a house of cards if this supply runs short for even a minimal time. And with China and India now inefficiently industrialized, who knows when this lack of oil supply could create such an economic tragedy. I did notice that Gold hit a 25 year high today. My last post on this thread.

I have a couple of points to add to the discussion. First, Kutenay is bang-on about Barry Tomkins. I know Barry and his family and have twice hunted in his area and also worked in his camps. His area is chock-a-block with game animals, he demands the best from everyone who works for him, he treats his customers with respect and gives them a great experience, and he genuinely cares for the game animals in his area. Re: sheep, I have often heard him say that one Stone Sheep should be enough for each hunter for a lifetime. He would also like to see hunters be more selective and shoot only the really old rams, rather than settle for the ones that are barely legal.

Second, about Stone Sheep in general, there is no doubt that the sheep are less numerous in this general area than in the past. There are probably a few factors involved, including hunting, animal predation, and human/economic encroachment. The easiest factor to deal with is hunting, and changes in the regulations in the next few years are very likely to occur. Possibilities are: limiting the general season, raising the maturity level of legal rams, going to LEH draws, and restricting foreign access. My guess is we won't have to wait long to see which way B.C. will go, as there is a lot of pressure from many corners to make some changes. The sheep aren't endangered by any means, but the province is interested in maintaining their status. If you are anticipating coming here for some sheep hunting,my advice is to re-mortgage and do it soon. Hunting in B.C., especially in the north, is an experience that you'll never forget. There are very, very few places on this planet that are as untouched or as beautiful.

Barry's website:
http://www.bignine.com/

Stone Mountain's website:
http://stonemountainsafaris.com/

I agree residents should have the most preference in any game management program, otherwise it would encourage poaching. And I completely agree that other countries have the "rights" to decide their own, absolutely.

Surely there must be some room in between banning aliens and alien preference?

For my 2 cents of contributing an opinion it is this, the anti-hunters and anti-gun folks are not localized. They would be salivating over any announcements that prime game country like Arizona, or BC is closing hunting to all but native born residents of said area. They know the entire gun and hunting industry has interests or maybe at the least, dreams of perhaps only once in a lifetime hunting some of these areas.
If they were closed off to all but native born residents who would care or have any interest in the area? The national and international anti's could pool their vast resoures and their lust for screwin up guns and hunting and work their will on one localized region at a time, putting in their politicians etc.
My closing thought is in looking at Africa as an example, the areas that closed international hunting have for all practical purposes lost their game populations. While the countries who have remained open internationally maintain good populations of game. Although I can't say it would be a direct parallel in Arizona, BC, or Alberta it is something to ponder.

I think your point is valid about Africa, except for the very well organized Hunting and fishing organizations in each jurisdictioin in North America. I was really making the observation that non-resident Alien hunting in Alberta and BC contributes very little to the overall economies in our provinces and except the license fees which are only $180 in Alberta(don't know what the tags cost in BC) is used by Fish and Wildlife, it's really a very small amount of money in provinces with $20+ billion dollar annual budgets.

My point here was and is that the current situation IS not tenable; we Canadians ARE being left out of the best hunting in OUR nation in certain areas due to the activities of foreign owned Guide/Outfitters and the Sheep are declining in numbers.

I have NOT said anything about restricting B.C. hunting to certain ...classes...of residents, that is a misrepresentation of my statements and is diametrically opposed to what I believe in. I also have not said anything about restricting hunting to native-born B.C. residents; I said that Guide/Outfitter operations should be restricted to persons of that type and I tend to believe in this as a way to protect the birthright of B.C. people from foreign quickbuck "investors".

My experience with foreign hunters has been mixed and I have met some real good guys and also some jerks who think that just because they can afford to hunt here, they have the automatic right to do so. I think that resident-only hunting of our rare species might be the best way to protect these animals and our interest in them, but, am not fully committed to this as yet.

As to the negative impact of B.C. wilderness preservation on international commodities, petrochemical or whatever, I seriously doubt that a temporary or even a permanent ban of drilling in two drainages is going to throw the world's economy into a massive depression. In any event, Canada in general and B.C. in particular are NOT simply resource warehouses for nations who have squandered their own resource wealth; Canadian resources belong to Canadians, to do with as we see fit and we owe NOBODY the option of getting our resources cheaply, or at all, the Softwood-NAFTA shenanigans has taught us that.

I favour integrated resource policies and this could include a ban on the privelige of Americans hunting in B.C. due to the Softwood situation, it could also include withdrawing from NAFTA and charging U.S. customers more for our exports of electricity, petroleum products or whatever. I do honestly think that non-resident hunting in B.C. is going to be stopped within a fairly short time and there is no real incentive for we residents to lobby against this and some to lobby for it.

I totally support ANY decision taken by government or industry that enhances conservation here in B.C.; I am not concerned about negative impacts on a few hundred wealthy foreign hunters, this is not my problem. In any case, this particular decision is good news for the Stone's Sheep and I hope to see this start a trend of environment first and other considerations second where B.C. is concerned. As one of the other posters said, if you want to hunt here, do it soon, because it is getting VERY pricey and will probably be phased out in the near future.

I strongly disagree with the attitude that one Stone's Sheep ram per lifetime is enough for any hunter as this means that foreign hunters willing and able to pay the price of one of these hunts would have equal rights and an equal share in this B.C. resource to B.C. hunters. UNUH, NO WAY, NO HOW! This would benefit the Guide/Outfitters and rich foreign hunters at the expense of people like me; it is exactly the attitude that I am opposed to as are most resident hunters I know.

Overall, I favour a very small number of permits being allowed to foreign hunters based on a draw system. I also favour very large increases in licence fees so that the people of B.C. will benefit financially from the killing of our wildlife and, finally, I favour an elimination of ALL foreign hunting in any area of B.C. for any species where we residents opportunity is restricted by Limited Entry regulations and this is the first iniative that I want to see goverment take action on. If, there are not enough Kootenay Moose for an open season for guys like me, there are not enough for ANY foreign hunting, period.

The basis of this jealousy is the Americans were using guides familiar with the area and pre-scouted. If the natives were using the guides the desparity would probably be even greater compared with the on-their-on hunters.
We have this same thing going on in the US mountain states.

Wrong, there are plenty of B.C. resident hunters that are very familiar with the land and the species that inhabit it, they just can't fairly compete with the big outfitters who think they own sole hunting rights on their guide territory. Another big difference is most B.C. hunters don't have a budget to own a float plane, riverboat and a 5 star lodge in pristine wilderness habitat. Easy access to remote areas is a huge factor.

Even getting into remote habitat doesn't help in many cases. Two close friends of mine payed good money to get flown into a remote lake in northern B.C. 2 seasons ago to hunt stones sheep. At least twice a day everyday for the whole 7 days they were there, the local guide outfitter plane would make several low passes over the ridges and valley's in an obvious attemp to haze any sheep that may be in the vicinity. The outfitter kept track of the local float plane schedules so he would know where resident hunters were getting dropped off.
I have heard many accounts of similar tactics being used by other outfitters as well.

I have to agree with Kute on this one fully. The system we have as it stands now is in deperate need of an overhaul. The money spent in B.C. by foreign hunters does nothing to replenish game stocks or enhance habitat for the species that is being hunted. Heck, most of that money doesn't even stay in Canada.

I would love to see some drastic policy changes for the puppet G/O's and foreign hunters with lots of money and little respect for the privilages they enjoy at our expense.

RO

If that were done to me, I would report the situation to the Ministry of the Environment, the RCMP and the Vancouver media. I would carefully document and film the entire affair and then go public with it, I have considerable experience with media and government and could raise a huge ruckus.

If, this were an American "owner" of a B.C. Guide/Outfitter concession, the Vancouver media would leap on the story and I suspect that the individual would lose his guiding licence permanently. If not, I would contact my local MLA to initiate procedures in the Legislature to outlaw ALL non-resident hunting and thus eliminate the basis of the G/O's business.

My rights here in B.C. are based on birth, my pioneer ancestry which predates Confederation and my status as a taxpayer. I will not stand by and watch foreigners take over B.C hunting and I am heartened to see that the B.C. hunters on this forum agree; ours is not a position based on jealousy, we simply want what is ours and WILL do whatever we must to stop bullschitt like Riverotter mentions.

We are going to preserve our wildlife/wilderness and this action by the current government is a step in the right direction toward that goal, I intend to lobby for further actions of this type.

My apologies for the "ugly americans" that ruin everything for everyone.
Yes it sounds like eliminating foreign ownership of outfitter services and licenses would be a good plan for everyone.

No Canadian posting on this thread has said ANYTHING negative about Americans and certainly not ...ugly americans... We Canucks are generally quite pro-American, but, that does not mean that we want our hunting controlled by anyone other than ourselves; in our place, would you feel any differently?

1

These are the ones that I was referring to as ugly americans. We don't like'em either.

Kutenay,

It�s great to see that you are so enthusiastic and passionate about the welfare of sheep and sheep hunting in British Colombia. However, I�d like to add an additional name to your long list of recommended guides and outfitters.

Bryan Martin, Canadian Mountain Outfitters. http://www.canadianmtnoutfitters.com

Bryan was raised in Oregon, and after college, lived in Montana for a while. While he was starting his business and was working on becoming a BC resident, he spent quite a bit of time living at my house. He is a good friend that I�ve learned to know quite well and have done a bit of hunting with him here in Montana. I really wish I saw more of him, but he�s all over the map with his business and hunting these days. He hasn�t made it to back to visit for a long time.

He�s made significant sacrifices in his life to do what a lot of guys can only dream of doing. He works very hard and has built up a great outfitting business. I don�t know if he�s making a profit yet, but I sure hope so. He truly lives for the adventure of the hunt.

I�ve been fortunate enough to do a significant amount of hunting in my life and hunt with numerous high-quality individuals. Bryan ranks at the top of the stack, the very top. I�ve never been on a guided hunt, but if I do I hope that my outfitter/guide is a fraction of the individual that Bryan is. Several of my friends have hunted with Bryan in BC and they have nothing but great things to say about their experiences. Most have returned, or are planning to return.

I�m going to have to point out a key attribute that does not matter to me if I were to choose an outfitter as a Stone Sheep hunter in BC. It would be where that person was born. It�s completely irrelevant. It should be about picking the absolute best person there is.

Having been around the block a little when it comes to hunting, I�d have to say if you know somebody that is better suited for a northern BC Stone Sheep hunt than Bryan Martin� I�d have to see it to believe it. I don�t know if Bryan has the best sheep concession, but I�d bet everything that he is hands-down the best outfitter in that province, provided you judge an individual the way I do.

In any event, I hope the stone sheep in BC flourish and hunters (both resident and non-resident) can enjoy them for years to come.

I think Kutenays beef is with absentee owners of these outfits. Most people are welcome to come to Canada, open a business and live here. In effect they become a resident by their actions. If this guy supports the envireonment here and is a responsible businessman, it's certainly OK with me. That's not really Kut's issue.

I cannot debate every aspect of this at present as I must pack for a hunting trip commencing within a few days. Also, this thread is getting somewhat sidetracked from my original concern, which is the positive effect on the Stone's Sheep in northern B.C. of a decision by the current B.C. government as well as the absolutely unacceptable level of harvest by foreign trophy hunters.

I am not going to get into who is/is not the ...best outfitter... as that is irrelevant to my concerns and is, in any case, a subjective attitude that cannot be realistically addressed here.

However, the point concerning the birthplace of a given Guide-Outfitter is VERY pertinent to the issue, especially where American nationals are concerned. What we have now is Yanks who want to live their dream of being G/Os in the B.C. wilderness and STILL retain American citizenship and a residence(s) in the U.S.A.

These are among the very worst offenders in attempting to deny B.C. resident's access to OUR game due to lobbying for road closures and bag limit restrictions on we residents. Many of these buckos also will not take residents into "their" areas and thus restrict our hunting opportunities in our own land.

I am absolutely against ANY foreign national, regardless of "residence" being legally allowed to have ANY investment in/ownership of a B.C. Guide-Outfitter concession. Native-born British Columbians ONLY should be allowed, by law, to operate these concessions and how hard someone works or what quality of person they are has nothing to do with it.

In a related issue concerning resource allocation, international trade, NAFTA and basic fairness; the export of raw logs from B.C. to mills in the Pacific Northwest allowed by the same corporate-loving government has increased by about 100% during the past while. So, while the lumber processed in B.C. mills by B.C. workers is subject to an illegal "duty" by the "Dubya" government, this lumber from our logs is not and we suffer because of it.

I think that one of the responses to this by the B.C. government should be to eliminate the hunting of our wildlife by those who support "Dubya" as a demonstration of our resolve to control our resources and trade fairly. Given the foreign influence in wildlife allocation/access here in B.C., I think that there would be substantial benefits to B.C. resident hunters and the game populations as well.

I think that this explains my position on this issue as fully as is beneficial and I note that other B.C. residents tend to agree with me. So, I am off to backpack for several days at home in the Kootenays and I wish everyone here a very Happy Easter.

Everybody is entitled to their opinions and beliefs and however they feel the need to justify it.

All I have to say as this is one "yank" that if I were to go to BC in search of a Stone Sheep hunt, I'd choose to go with what I feel is likely the best. And he wasn't born in Canada.

Happy Easter & good hunting.

That's hilarious. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> He won't take me hunting so it takes away an opportunity from me...

I also find it odd that this thread only briefly mentions what your "good news" is:
After that, it veers almost entirely toward how the Yanks have crushed the sheep populations while jeopardizing the BC residents' "birth rights to harvest" them. Man, I with I had some birth rights to harvest MT sheep.

Just curious kutenay, how many sheep hunts have you been on and how many have you taken? Also, can you hunt stone sheep annually?

Sorry that I ask these questions in your thread, but the more I think about it, the more this subject appears to be some incessant whining.