Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game B.C. Stone's Sheep-some good news

Oh great!Now what am I gonna do with that 25 thousand!

Buy Barnes bullets for "practice". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Buy Barnes bullets for "practice". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have been involved in B.C. conservation activities since I was 14 in 1960, when I wrote a letter to the then Regional Inspector for the B.C. Fish & Wildlife Branch advocating the creation of a certain wilderness park near my home town; 22 years later, this became a reality. For anyone to even suggest that my motives concerning the essential changes to wildlife management in B.C. are based on greed is ridiculous; this is precisely the sort of attitude about hunting in B.C. that enrages we Canucks and strengthens the negative attitudes about non-resident hunting that currently are increasing here.

My concern here is first for the animals and their habitat, then for ordinary B.C. hunters and our absolute right to any level of usage/restrictions on our wildife resources that we desire. I cannot get equality in the U.S.A., for example, with an American citizen to hunt Dall's or Kodiaks in Alaska....nor should I...and I cannot buy an Alaskan guiding outfit and then begin to restrict Alaskan's opportunities to hunt in favour of B.C. visiting hunters.....nor should I be able to, regardless of my financial status.

The facts in the B.C. case are that the Guide/Outfitter Ass'n. of B.C. has and is attempting to get the government to allow them to control ALL resident hunting and access. They want to greatly lower resident seasonal limits in order to increase their quotas of "trophy" animals that they sell to wealthy foreigners and, in many cases, the profits from this are then taken "home" to foreign countries.

The actual $$$$ that the Province of B.C. realizes from the huge kill of B.C. wildlife by guided foreign hunters every year is only a tiny part of the funds needed for wildlife management. Any increase in resident licence fees necessary to accomodate an elimination in non-resident hunting would be only a few bucks to each hunter and those I know have indicated that they would gladly pay larger fees to fund better management and greater hunting opportunities and better success ratios.

So, as JeffP correctly pointed out, this is about priority for B.C. people to correct the current unsustainable situation. While one, largely U.S.-funded environmentalist group has bought ONE guide concession, because nobody else would, they are not now and never will be able to buy out the really crucial outfits in the best hunting areas. These have very heavy American "investment" annd these are the ones who attempt to limit resident access and lower resident quotas.

B.C. Guide/Outfitters used to be "Mom&Pop" operations by local people, usually stump ranchers and had little impact on the resident's hunting. Now, they are multi-million dollar operations with special permits to build huge luxury lodges in wilderness parks, where I cannot even legally build a pole tent-frame, and exclusive contracts with federally licenced air carriers that exclude resident access to much of our finest hunting.

Spotter planes, radios, exclusive grazing rights in wilderness areas where I cannot even take a pack string without being hassled by members of the Forest Service, for whom I used to work, and many other special privileges/concessions have allowed wealthy foreign investors and their friends from their home countries to obtain ego-boosting "Grand Slams" at the expense of B.C. resident hunters. If, wanting to stop this is greedy, well, tough schitt, it is GOING to be STOPPED, one way or another.

The costs of a B.C. Stone are about half those of a Mexican Desert Bighorn and increasing this cost will NOT benefit the Sheep or B.C. wildlife management; it will only further enrich the Guide/Outfitters. I have had any years direct experience with environmental issues/management in western Canada, both as a volunteer conservationist and an employee of resource managment agencies and private consulting firms; from this I know that things must change and re-gaining control of our hunting is first among them.

I am not totally opposed to non-resident hunting, but, I want to de-commercialize it, bring in a draw system so that ordinary guys from Australia, New Zealand, the U.K. and the U.S. will have at least a chance to hunt whatever game we have a surplus of; I do NOT want to see non-resident hunting here restricted to the wealthy as is becoming more and more prevalent. Given that some Stone's herds have, I'm told, declined in numbers by 40% in recent years, the cost of hunts for the remaining rams is going to sharply increase; however, this will do nothing to re-build those herds or enhance resident hunting.

Due to this situation, I favour an immediate ban on all foreign hunting of Stone's Sheep. If, that's not acceptable to wealthy "Grand Slammers", and they want to raise a ruckus about it, maybe a legislated end to all non-resident hunting might be the best option....and this is quite possible.

I am firmly in favour of local control/managment of environmental issues, hunting included and believe in scientific managment, not in wildife production influenced by big egos and foreign $$$$$; my impression is that the majority of Canadian/B.C. hunters strongly agree with me. Changes are coming and it is about time.

A well articulated post....
No ambiguity,and no guessing where you stand!

Further,I wish we could curb the outfitters here too.As I
would love to have access to hunt Dalls w/o a mandated
guide rule.

I do not have any major concerns with your position on foreigners hunting in BC, but I do have some concern with your implied statement on oil drilling/exploration in the area. I know my position may be extremely unpopular, but I am convinced that until we can find alternative energy sources we must explore/drill/produce petroleum reserves wherever we can find them on this earth (and this certainly includes Alaska.) The entire world economy is on such a fragile thread currently, that a slight blip in oil production will send the global economy into such a tailspin that I believe would generate a global economic depression. I'm surely in favor of very tight restrictions on the oil companies (which I believe are raping us daily) in all their exploits, and we must absolutely get some teeth into getting on the fast track to alternative energy sources or we're all going to be destitute sooner than we can imagine. Just an avid hunter / ordinary consumer's 02 cents worth.

rstokes
What country do you hail from?

Good ole USA

Well not to steal Kutenays thunder...but shouldn't BC residents
decide where and how to use thier resources?I think you make his point for him.

Perhaps, but did you mean to say that Canadians should have a say about how Canadian resources are administered? I could then come to your understanding. Unfortunately, we do not have that "Canadian" picture being presented as it is a B.C picture first and then Canadian. That would be akin to my being able to tell an Okie that he is not welcome to drill for oil in Texas. Certainly if Canada wishes to exclude all foreign hunters they have that right. I am sure B.C. has provincial laws as we have state laws. However, we both have Big Brother looking over our shoulders.

Correct,Canadian.As you pointed out,a resident of Alberta
has a stake in BC Stone rams or oil.However,like most
residents of the west,BC residents want the right to the lions share of resources first.Just as New Mexico or Arizona residents want preference for elk tags over some jerk from Connecticut.

However,money talks and BS walks...I think Kutenay has a
tough row to hoe.

JeffP,
If those in BC want to keep their pristine wilderness, that's fine with me. Have never been there but I'm quite certain it's a wonderful place. I'm just saying that if the global economy falters because of the lack of an adequate oil supply, the tree-hugging environmentalists will be walking and starving with the rest of us, and revenue generated from hunting in any location will seem pale in comparison. The US already imports a tremendous amount of oil from Canada (and others)and needs to continue to do so at whatever the price until alternative energy sources are utilized. As a US citizen, I certainly don't like being in this "import at any cost" position on oil. This might sound pompous, but if the tap dries up on the US, Japan and Germany; everyone goes down the tube.

I'm just saying that if the global economy falters because of the lack of an adequate buffalo supply, the tree-hugging environmentalists will be sleeping blanketless and starving....

You can fill in the blank with any resource.

I don't see kutenay as a greeny,more like TR.And although I
don't know him,I believe him to be sincere about his concerns for Stone sheep,BC hunters rights as well as the environment .Sometimes what is best for the resource is not always what is economically the most productive.

I'm not up to date on the oil economy,but when is the last time we built a refinery?Why don't we drill offshore in California? I think our oil problems are more homespun than international.Apart from oil thirsty China.

Absolutely, he has a rough rode to hoe! His position has always been BC first and I think to the exclusion of several classes of BC residents as well. One would think that BC hunters are behind every tree, when in reality I gather between the lines there are relatively few BC hunters per capita. However, having said that we know in our own backyard the minority win out over the majority in almost every decision being made. Perhaps Kutenay is on to something! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> In any event he is steadfast in his beliefs and I have always wished him the best.

Well since we are here may as well hijack the thread. I am and have been in the oil patch for the past 35 years. No refineries being built because no oil to run them - simplistic answer. Actually there has been considerable drilling offshore California but could certainly be more. Until recently (20 years is still recent for some of us) the world depended in great part of the industrial output of the US to provide it with much of its required manufactured goods. We provided the manufacturing facilities and they provided some of the oil to run the plants, transport the workers, etc.

Along came the Communist Chinese, without laws, lawyers, etc, coupled with a, let's say robust level of testosterone = a sleeping giant of competition. As their new plants came on line, our old plants went off line - again a simplistic example, but none the less a reason for the need for more oil. One would think that shuttering our plants would reduce our demand for energy, not so - we are at war across the world and the demand for energy has increased at the same time the peoples of China demand more goods and services with their newfound "wealth". Certainly, oil and gas being a depleting resource is unable to keep up with the ever increasing demands. Alternative sources of energy are the only way to feed the world demand. Certainly if ever higher prices for oil continue there will be a worldwide depression and we are seeing some signs of that in the US now as fertilizer plants, a large consumer of energy, are shutting down. No fertilizer, less food and on down the chain we go. Well this of course can go on and on through ones entire economy but that is a class for someone much smarter than this "hunter".

As long as we're on the topic, does anyone know a good Stone sheep guide in BC?

IMHO it is difficult to get the names for what should be some very obvious reasons! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />Honestly, I have read several articles about hunting the stone in BC and nowhere do they mention the area, guide, etc in the article.

Trophy Stone Safaris Ltd.
Curt and Marcia Thompson
29 Wann Road, Box 9176
Whitehorse, Yukon Territory
Y1A 4A2
Phone: (867) 668-6564
Fax: (867) 668-6563
E-mail: thompson@polarcom.com
Boycott BC

I have more info. to impart on this, but, am too busy at present. For anyone wanting to hunt Stone's now or in the near future, I can strongly recommend the following G/Os.

High & Wild-Barry Thompkins- often called "the best outfitter in the north" and, IMO, with good reason. One of his head guides, a former outfitter himself, Dale Copeland is one of the maybe three BEST master bushmen I have ever seen, and I am not exactly a novice in the B.C. bush. This guy can be ornery, but, he makes most of us good bushmen here look like kids, no schitt. I highly recommend Barry, period.

Stone Mountain Safaris, once Dave Wiens, now owned by some other folks with some assistance from Dave. Again, a top notch outfit, very well run and lots of game. I also recommend them without reservation.

Miles Bradford, a small, quiet outfit with an OUTSTANDING rep among hardcore Sheepists ( a weird breed, anyway); for only Sheep, this is where I would go, but, Barry and SMS have a greater variety of huntable species, especially Elk.

Gundahoo Outfitting, they supposedly have the largest rams, I know nothing about them.

There are others, but, I would pick from the first three; some of the other outfits (nobody mentioned here) have hit and miss reputations and I prefer not to comment.

Last, the old Peck outfit, but, I don't know who is running it now, the MOE in Victoria would know, or, the field office in Fort St. John. Again, one of B.C.'s most legendary outfits and VERY fine country with LOTS of game.

IF, you are serious about going, I would go on a multi-species hunt first or try to combine Stone's with Goats. These hunts cost a LOT of money, figure $30,000 USD for a Stone, over all plus more for other trophies on the same hunt. But, this is the finest wilderness hunting left on this old planet.....which is why many of we B.C.'ers are so passionate about it....and it is an experience you will always treasure and never forget.

Yukon hunting for Stone's (aka Fannin's) Sheep, Dall's and so forth as well as MacKenzie Mountain hunting in the NWT is very good, quite expensive and worth the price. But, there is nowhere on Earth like B.C. and, if you can afford it, do it now as it is changing and not for the better from a hunting point of view.

Here is some contact info.

High & Wild-250-787-8431

Stone Mountain-250-232-5469

Go to www.goabc.org for further info.....and do it soon, because it can take three years to get a spot with one of the worthwhile G/Os.