I know there have been numerous debates on the .45-70 in africa, and I know a lot of african hunters get upset when us Americans introduce the idea of bringing our gun into your backyards.

I agree that the .458 win mag, .416 rigby, .500 nitro, and other rounds are definately more powerful than the .45-70, and their's no question about that but is all that extra power and recoil and slow loading in a bolt or double rifle style really better then a lever gun with loads that are 75% as powerful but have 50% less recoil and 3x the speed in follow up shots

I have a custom lever action.45-70 that holds 8 cartridges, If I brought this ammo with me to africa I think it would do the job against all game.. yes or no?

http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/-strse-22/45-dsh-70--pls-P-405-Grain/Detail.bok

405 grain brass punch bullet, 2050 FPS 3780 muzzle energy

plus I have 7 follow up shots I can call on faster then any bolt gun could, and less recoil

Sounds good to me. I have a Browning 1886 in 45-70. All I will EVER need.

"Africa's Most Dangerous" by Kevin Robertson page 117: " The current popularity of lever action guide rifles in the US has kindled an interest in the 45-70 being used on the big, dangerous stuff. Despite some pretty impressive claims of full body length penetration on bull buffalo, this load (Garret +P Hammerhead)still falls a long way short of the legal ME requirements for dangerous game (4,00 ft-lbs of ME). And so the use of the 45-70 on buffalo in all African countries should be regarded as illegal."
I believe Scovill has a video for sale at Wolfe Pub. showing him ventilating a buffalo with an 1886 Winchester. Watch it and you might agree with Robertson's opinion.

This isn't garrett ammo, this is grizzly and it has 3,800 foot pounds.

I've used soft point bullets at low velocity for plinking and have seen them with my own 2 eyes go through a 12" live hickory, i'm pretty sure if it can do that it can go through an elephants skull or any other animal on eart

best all around hunting cartridge ever made, so customizeable to the task at hand

.... i'm pretty sure if it can do that it can go through an elephants skull or any other animal on eart[/quote]

to me that is quote says it all, you are pretty sure or you think that the 45-70 might work. for all intend and purposes you are putting your life on the line, so rather than being pretty sure: be damn sure!!. to me when you say the word Africa there is already to many variables, ad to that the fact that you are in Africa for dangerous game hunting. i think you should do everything to minimize variables on your side.

let me take this conversation a step further. this is Africa with our version of the law and African police and all that goes with that. so if something terrible were to happen with you while hunting d,game with your 45-70, things can go very bad from there for the outfitter and the ph. whether you 45/70 is to blame or not is not the problem. as soon as the police find something out of the ordinary they tend to cling to that , and by doing so they know they can finish their investigation more quickly.( they have a scape goat, in this case the ph that allowed you to hunt with a "marginal"/ non traditional calibre)

now usually there is a scout/game ranger along on these d/game hunts. so now you are putting more pressure on the ph to "convince" the government official that he can sign of on the hunt so that you can take your trophy and all that goes with that.

remember although almost all hunts in Africa are without big incidents and goes more than smooth, you are still leaving a first world country to come to the third world , wherein terms such as logic and justice may differ from your perception.

having said all that i am always of the opinion that a 45/70 would probably do the job, but when a buffalo is on the charge i want calibre that WILL do the job.

if you insist on bringing your 45-70, do so,but at least be considerate and warn your ph beforehand

Then WTF are you asking for then?

"plus I have 7 follow up shots I can call on faster then any bolt gun could, and less recoil"

First of all, a big +1 to Dan and his observations about the Third World and Third World law enforcement/investigation. My profession took me around the planet and over those thirty years what he describes is pretty much universal truth. Remember, a marginal round puts all of your team at risk - legal and physical - not just you.

With regard to your rifle, in much buffalo country, and in most herd situations, my admittedly limited buffalo experience suggests the opportunity for a second shot is a pretty fleeting thing regardless of how many rounds a particular rifle holds. With appologies to Mr. Browning, nothing is quicker than a double rifle, and yet getting a second shot off with one of them can be very iffy. What should be a primary concern is getting that first round in exactly the right place.

Would a 45-70 with the right bullet kill a buffalo? Of course it will. So will my .338 with .250 gr partitions. Heck, so will a 30-06. That doesn't make them ideal or legal.

I would suggest doing a first DG hunt with the best heavy medium, scope-equipped rifle you can bring (read .375/.416 class). Much the same should be said about a plains game hunt except make it a medium bore. In the scrub desert of north central Namibia where shots are typically close, your lever gun likely would be fine (on my recent trip to Eden, I took my Evans paradox as my second gun). Though there too, you would miss quite a few opportunities. In the Erongo Mountain region, on the other hand, you would be lucky to have a shot at much of anything closer than 200. Somewher out beyond 200, no matter how hot you load it, that 45-70 starts having the trajectory of a howitzer. You will not want to be sharing a PH with a buddy with such a limiting weapon.

I would suggest taking it as your second rifle on a plains game hunt. Wack a warthog or two with it, and move up as the conditions and your comfort level warrant. Upon your return, you can make a much more informed decision about its proper place in Africa.

Well, I took a .45-70 Marlin Guide Gun, to Africa, for my 1st safari, in July 2008. I shot 7 head of plains game with it. I used 300 gr. nosler partitions, at about 1950 fps.

Having said all that, my son and I are going back to Africa, in August 2011. It will be a dangerous game hunt, including cape buff, hippo, and tuskless ele. I considered modifying my GG, and handloading the punch bullet, for use on the safari. As far as marginal energy, they allow 9.3s and they are marginal also. However, they have something that the .45-70 doesn't have, enough S D to get the job done.

When I threw thr tuskless into the mix, I just couldn't justify the .45-70. So what did I decide? Well a 375 H&H in the other bastion of controversy, the Ruge no. 1 single shot.

I have no doubt that the .45-70 can and will work. It's already taken all of the Big 5, plus croc and hippo.

Actually these forums, today, are a lot "kinder/gentler" on the 45-70, than they were 3-4 yrs. ago

Sooo, Polska, take it if you want to, advise your ph, in advance, and go have fun! Just be careful how hard you expound your theories on the 45-70 on any forum, when you only have a post count of 19


maddog

A friend of mine took an Elephant without any drama what so ever with a 45-70 Contender pistol.

Energy numbers are meaningless as well as SD number. Any bullet with sufficient momentum will get the job done

Polska,
Brian Pierce of Rifle magazine took his 45-70 to Africa with GREAT results.
I'll locate the article and PM you the loads he used.
Your 45-70 will work just fine.

Tom

Yes he did, killing 2 Buffalo with 1 shot...

Search around for threads on Vincent Lupo or I believe Brockman Rifles built his gun for him but he took all of the Big 5 with a 45-70. My only caution would be what Dan was talking about and what is legal/not legal and the countries your dealing with on these legal issues.

1.) Armchair theory is no substitute for in the field experience

2.) There is a reason countries have minimum ballistic requirements. 100 years of hunting and of human tragedy have forged those requirements.

3.) I do not recommend using a marginal caliber on your first buffalo. Go and get one or two under your belt before trying any stunts. This is from someone who has taken Cape Buffalo with a 9.3 JDJ, 8 mm Mag, .338 mag, 9.3 X 62, and .450/400 NE.

The JDJ was effective, but in retrospect that was a stunt. I no longer handgun hunt. The 8 mm Mag was a surgical strike to the brian. I also consider that a stunt. The .338 was used to to take down a wounded buff on the run acting as a backup. The high shoulder shot put him down. While all three of these cartridges proved effective once, I can't recommend them across the board. The 9.3 X 62 is considered a minimum by many for buffalo, and I agree. I have had great success with the 9.3. The .450/400 is even better but even that hardly knocks them on their butt every time.

Now on to elephant. I have a grand total of one under my belt. Until you have hunted and taken one, theories about what is adequate are about as meaningful as arguing the origins of the universe with a [bleep]. I used the .450/400. Taylor loved that cartridge, but considered it light for elephant in the thick stuff. I will not dispute that. Anything that does not have a lanyard attached to it is on the light side when things get hairy in the jess. The .375 H & H has taken plenty of jumbo, and proven itself again and again, yet cropping officers and PH's generally decide something bigger is better.

Polska needs to talk to some PH's in person about booking a hunt. I can't imagine any allowing him to use the 45-70 on elephant under any circumstance, and not on buff until he has proven himself in the field, and probably over the course of more than one safari.

Since everybody's recommending "searches", why don't you do a "search" to see how many Professional Hunters or for that matter clients with significat African experience use and recommend the 45/70. Will it work? absolutely but just like my less effective 405 WCF will also probably work but at least I recognize it for what it is, pushing the envelope with a marginal round. jorge

\
Brain Pierce killed 2 Cape Buffalo with 1 shot useing the 45-70. Ross Sefried took a Cape Buffalo with a 450 Westley Richardson Long Range Express with a 480 grain cast bullet at about 1380 FPS the bullet exited. I would not call that "marginal"

Zeus uses lightning, but I don't recommend that for neophytes either.

That right there is funny, I don't care who you are... Of course your experience with the cartridges is???

There is one thing that ought to be considered. A real dead eye shot with a 45-70 is going to be more assured and safer than a suprflinch with a 416 or 458 rifle. If you can dot the "i" with one and are pretty cool nerved, it could be a lot better than pulling a shot badly with a rifle that has a lot more recoil.

I would.

And again I ask, what were the search results for the number of PHs and or clients using the 45/70.

2 kills in 1 shot is marginal, come on now jorge

2 kills is hardly a definitive study.

Will it work? Sure. Is it advised for someone without dangerous game experience? Not by me. (Cue music here. Led Zeppelin "Trampled Under Foot")

The fact that with proper bullets and loads is that it works fine, but it ain't what the traditionalist "think" is adequate, which is the problem of course. It galls them that the Cape isn't "bullet proof"

Chill Jorge, guy asked a question and I gave him advice on what to search for in an answer to his question. Every cartridge has its limitations as anyone with experience knows. If I hit the lottery and could afford a Big 5 trip would I use one, no but I would also have the loot to buy what I wanted or needed. I also agree with the fliching statement made but with the 45-70 load the OP gave, recoil out of the 45-70 is not mild

I gave a quick synopsis of my experience with various cartridges. Please share your experience with buff.

The fact that Brain Piece killed 2 with one shot is apparently lost on you, correct? And again your experience with the 45-70 or like powered weapons?

Chip, I wasn't directing my response to you, the system just picks up whomever is right before. It was aimed at the dogmatic zealots who continue to espouse the 45/70 as {sic} the best all around cartridge in the world or as a DG round on par with recognized and proven DG cartridges. To be sure, a 45/70 with the right load and someone who knows how to use it like Sharpsguy for example is perfectly adequate for buffalo, lion, etc,(adequate being the operative word) for elephant, rhino or hippo on land I think it's foolhardy.

Lastly, I still never seem to get my question answered on the PHs and experienced clients who rely or recommend the 45/70 for any of the above.

Spot on jorge. Not sure whom you refer to as to proposing that the 45-70 is the "best" all around cartridge for DG or what ever. I agree with a proper load it will indeed get the job done

Fair enough Jorge.

I think you missed the point. It was one round that took two buff -- as it it passed through buff 1, and continued through buff two. A twofer.

Dudes . . . . .

You all miss the point.

The 45/70 guide gun is double extra cool and kills game with its "coolness".

Muzzle Energy is simply wasted . . . . . .

BMT

No, I have not missed that point, but I think you have missed mine.

I believe the 45-70 will take cape buffalo, just as I have done with the 9.3 JDJ, 8 mm Mag, and .338 Mag. I cannot give any of those a blanket endorsement to someone inexperienced.
I believe Brian Pierce got enough penetration for a 2 for 1. If I were to follow an unconventional example for DG, I prefer Zeus and his lightning.

Just because a writer got extraordinary penetration one time doesn't make me want to tell the world to try to duplicate the feat. JD Jones has told me that he has gotten 2 feet of penetration in elephants skulls with his .375 JDJ and 270 solids at 1750 fps. That doesn't mean you should run out and try it. You can get 2 feet of penetration with an arrow too. Elephants and Cape buff have been taken with bows. I do not recommend it for tenderfeet.

As wonderful as the 45-70 is, I cannot consider it recommended no matter what Brian Pierce did. If you want to use it, fine! It will kill them. I would not want somebody planning a first time DG safari to think that the 45-70 is the be all end all. There is a reason the countries have minimums, good reasons born of thousands of encounters. I have seen cape buffalo plugged behind the shoulder with such superior cartridges as the .458 mag, and not go down to stay. I've seen them charge when they were down and bleeding. That will give you a healthy respect for them.

Talk to PH's that hunt DG for a living, and ask them what they think. Go hunt them yourself, more than one please, and then report back.

I've taken Asian Buffalo with a revolver with out fuss or drama and the bullet exited. A 45-70 will certainly shoot through a Cape Buff and a 45 caliber slug that is capable of exiting will most certainly be fatal.

hatari,
Points well taken. I really didn't consider the idea of the OP having never hunted Africa DG.
Having read yours and others, I understand what you are pointing out. Thanks for keeping it straight and level-headed.
Much appreciated.

Tom

thanks man, i appreciate it

i've battled many things in my life, never dangerous game but packs of dirtbags as a security gaurd at a nightclub... i know what i'm capable of and i'm confident I could pull off a safari with my .45-70 if I had to.

how is common sense armchair theory? Thats all boloni and I didn't even waste my time reading what you wrote.. it's all boloni, Africa and African rifles are an industry okay, The professional hunters and gun makers make big bucks doing what they do and they are also egomaniacs, does it hurt your ego's that my AMERICAN gun can do just as good if not better then your guns. I shoot a bullet that goes 400 fps slower out of my rifle than your .458 win mag and it's gonna make a big difference, give me a break... what you've just said is all bull [bleep], how is 200 foot pounds gonna make a diffence between putting down an animal or not.

Whats with the attitude bro, Dogmatic zealots hahaha? your out of your mind. I'll take my .45-70 to Africa and i'll take all the game I want with it some day, and i'll send you pictures if you like..

first of all have you ever shot a .45-70 or owned one, and shot all different types of loads with it, low power, full power, light weight, heavy weight. IF you did you would understand that it is the best all around gun ever made for home defense, dangerous game, deer, even some small game like wolves and coyotes, mountain lions. What makes it superior to your african rifles is that you can customize it's power you can go from low power and light weight for deer and small game, to full power and heavy weight bullets for grizzlies and african game. Plus it has the faster cycling of a lever action and you can hold any where from 6-10 cartridges, making it a perfect all around hunting gun. Go figure, something American is the best, not the first and not the last time.

Guides in alaska carry .45-70's and I think a 1,500 pound kodiak bear would eat your cape buffalo for breakfast.

.45-70

For all people reading this thread maybe you didn't catch my post properly. THERE IS NO QUESTION THE AFRICAN CALIBERS AND BOLT/DOUBLE GUNS HAVE MORE POWER THAN A .45-70... everybody knows that, BUT IS ALL THAT POWER REALLY NECESSARY?? OTHER THAN FLATTER TRAJECTORY. Again i've seen my 400 grain low power remington load at 1300 fps penetrate through a 12" hickory and keep going and found in the dirt mushroomed the size a silver dollar. If it can go through a tree i'm pretty sure it can go thru an elephant or rhino's skull.

Plus the lever is faster follow up shots, i can pump out 2 or 3 rounds in the time it will take you to pump out one follow up shot with your sluggish bolt gun, and also the recoil will be a more tolerable 40 ft/pds instead of the typical 60-80 of a full power safari gun

Flatter trajectory out of a double rifle? The 458 Winchester Magnum is a foreign cartridge? Don't American hunters go to Africa using American guns?

There are trolls, illiterate trolls and ignorant trolls. This one seems to have all bases covered.

Jeez...take a day or so off from the 'fire and it looks like I'm missing the phun...

I didn't scroll back through all the posts on this thread jorge...this guy's not shooting a Weatherby, is he???

Ingwe

One has to have a CLUE to own and shoot a Weatherby!

Can they buy a clue?

Nyalubwe,
You need to read this one from the start. This dude knows all, and has never been there. A real gadfly at work. Makes me wonder if Lee24 or Moccasinjoe have been resurrected.

Will do. I need something with some entertainment value....

Ingwe

what a shame that this thread has come to this. polska, i do believe that you are a shooter, and not a hunter. i will partake in this thread no more.

-Bob F.

And now for something completely different.....








-Bob F.

Nice ballistic coefficient on that one. Any fears of over penetration?

Bob,

I had to go find that poster. It is now one of my favorites!

Ed

Hatari,

What do you think the secant ogive REALLY looks like on those projectiles?

Ed

Well, I'm getting to be an old man... I'd be more worried about a lack of penetration.

-Bob F.

Boattail better than flat base.

Ballistic tips when it gets cold.

Never underestimate the effect of gravity.

Thanks for turning this thread into something interesting.

Penetration, however slight....

Ingwe said something about reduced loads. I'm guessing he's using SR 4759 and low pressure, but I'm skeptical that his performance will be adequate. Without sufficient penetration and expansion, DG is left wounded and angry. The follow up could be very dangerous, not to mention the possibility of a wasted trophy fee. There are just some things I wouldn't want my PH following up on.

I'm scared to ask the trophy fee on that.....

1/2 of everything you own!

"I'm scared to ask the trophy fee on that..... "

If you have to ask, you can't afford it!

Ed

Hey; I'm not squashing the 45/70 guy's dream......


......don't kill mine.

Sorry, I didn't mean to kill your dreams.

After all, I can't afford to hunt Africa right now, but I still read the books, enjoy the chat, look at pictures, and wish and hope.

Dream on, Brother!

Ed

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmm''

Jamie . . . . .

I'm dreaming in my next life I can come back as the sofa.....

Sad part is you can still get to Africa.....I'll end up with Rosie O'Donnell sitting on me

Same gal ?

i'd pound her out, thanks for the pic, it's a good one

That was mean...

If you doubt the efficiency of reduced loads...check out the smile on Jamie's face in that pic....


I'm just sayin....


Ingwe

Try these reloading tips the next time she is on your bench:

If you use a heavy hand on the powder measure, you'll end up with a sticky bolt.

Make sure you use plenty of case lube before activating the ram.

Small base dies can be tight and you wouldn't want any galling.

Graphite for the mouth is messy, but it makes insertion smoother.

High pressure may stretch the case,and you'll get no friction in seating the projectile. At that point, I recommend discarding the old for a new, unstretched case.

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD!!!!!!!



Ingwe

Now it's getting interesting!
whelennut

Of course, we could all just take up fishing and forget about all of these discussions and arguments concerning cartridges for Africa.






-Bob F.

Now you guys are taking sense.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Hmmm.....I smell a rebirth of the US Military Sniper Rifles thread

What's the line on the AU-USC game this Saturday?

Oregon by 13 over AZ State.

USC by 22 over WSU.

I've not only killed cape buffalo with a 45-70 shooting 300gr handloads I've also killed water buffalo that were 25% larger in body mass than cape with the same rig.

Yeah well... To heck with it. Let's just go to the beach and drink beer...








-Bob F.

Bob you drink the beer while I lie on my back in the water and pretend I'm her inner tube

I am never taking a day off from the 'fire again....


Ingwe

Ingwe, ya snooze ya lose.....



maddog

Of course, between fishing and going to the beach, we'll still need to find some time to get a little practice in at the rifle range.









-Bob F.

GOOD GRIEF, that's a nice pair of 45/70s...

After all of the physical activity, it's nice to sit back, relax, and enjoy watching a game of college football on TV.

Hmmm... Maybe watch the Texas vs Oklahoma game, for example....











-Bob F.

There's always time for Jamie!!

-Bob F.

Damn! she must work out. That's just about purrrrfuct.

So... what a bout that 450 Marlin....

The favorite of Lee24 and Bosslady

Only if one of the African Guru's uses it or wants to.The 405 Winchester is cool because..............Yet the modern 45-70 can beat it in every category and chuck 550 grain hard bullets......

It's all cool just remember on what forum you are.

Jayco

Some I guess have issues with reading what they want to read, I don't believe anybody said the 45/70 is not adequate,and certainly a lot more round that the 405 is, but some of us recognize what both rounds are and some not.

stunt1 (stnt) KEY


ETYMOLOGY:
From Middle English stunnt, foolish, short-witted, short (influenced by Old Norse stuttr, short, dwarfish), from Old English stunt

I guess there are those on this forum who have hunted African DG, and formed opinions based on that experience. There are others that who read ballistic tables and draw conclusions. A knife in the heart is better than 10,000 ft/lbs in the ass, but I don't recommend either for DG. You want to try it? Go for it.

Dudes . . . . .

OK! OK! Let's go old school:

I can NOT believe you azzhats hijacked a thread a troll started and turned it into a girly-pic thread!!!







Ingwe

I BELIEVE, I BELIEVE!!!

And I find it whimsical and appropriate.

Now back to the 45-70 model, puleeeeze...

For you, Chui:

Sorry, I don't burn oil as they say in the old country... OH! and I found a replacement for MocassinJoe over on the rifles forum about pre-64s...

You boys.....carry on!



maddog

Like I stated earlier, there's always time for more of Jamie Eason!!!













-Bob F.

Ahhhhhhhhhh. Always time.

Wow..i'll shoot any gun she wants me to...this is definately going the same as military sniper rifles..carry on

And now, some helpful hints for the ladies for using a shotgun around the house.





-Bob F.

that girl is too thin for my liking, she has no ass.

I wish buffalo bore made their 300 grain for .45-70 in a solid version, and also their 405 grain version in a solid.

You need to take a look at the Barnes Busters for the .45/70. Solid bullets designed to break bone and penetrate.

John

Well I think the 45/70 lever gun is certainly capable of doing a good job on African game or any other especially if you have those Beartooth bullets called "Piledrivers" in the magazine.

Now for those that just don't seem to understand what a "piledriver" bullet really is, take a look over on the Beartooth.com sight and get all the facts on what these Hardcast Bullets have done in the past on African dangerous game. It just might change your mind about lead hardcast bullets.

Hell, he needs to look at those swimsuit pictures again. Plenty caboose there.

Hatari,
You have too much taste for this thread.

John

haha she's too thin for my taste , i still wouldn't turn her down if I had an opportunity

thanks. I just checked them out, looks like a solid copper bullet. I have to get into reloading when I get some more money and a job. I think the 300 grain bullet I have from buffalo bore is bonded so it's probably good for thin skinned game and maybe even grizzly bear, the 405 grain has good penetration, people forget that although it has a soft lead point, most of it's mass is still solid copper and that will penetrate like hell. Obviously not optimal for dangerous game, but still will do the job

I've never had the pleasure of hunting Africa, but Fred Bear did, with a bow. I've shot the .45-70 and feel it is adequate for African game. Furthermore, you'll have a professional hunter with you, just as Fred did, in case something goes wrong. I don't feel you would be undergunned with a lever action .45-70, any more than I would be with my Ruger No 1 Single Shot .375 H&H. I tell people the same thing when they say a .357 Magnum handgun is too light for deer. I say, It's more powerful than an arrow.

Good post.

Polska,
Some advice - When you start a thread and ask for people's opinions on a subject, you should probably let them know ahead of time that your mind is already made up and you'll only accept opinions that agree with yours.

Radical Concept.....



Ingwe

maddog

Gents:

Beautiful photos aside (actually had to triple check a few), I just returned from my third trip to Namibia a few weeks ago. All three have been with some flavor of 45-70 and 450 Marlin.

First year was with a 45-70 Marlin 1895G and a Ruger #1. Used only 300 gr JHPs and cast at moderately hot velocities. That was all I had at the time and because I picked up a VERY short notice cancellation hunt I didn't have time to work up better. Only hunted PG and took Springbok, Gemsbok and Kudu. What I learned about the ammo was Springbok are like Whitetail and Gemsbok and Kudu are not.

Second year we took Marlin 1895G and 1895M and loaded 300gr Nosler partitions for the G at 2000fps and 405gr Rem's for the M at about 1950fps. Hunted same place for PG again. What I learned in trip two was - the 300gr NP all stopped just under the off side skin on Gemsbok (3) at varying ranges of 70-150 yds. The 405s didn't pass through either on 2 more Gemsbok from 100-130 yds. Four shots total and all four stopped just under the off side skin. BIG holes but they were driven too fast as the jackets separated.

This year we took 1895G, 1895M and my newly acquired Siamese Mauser converted to 45-70. Downloaded the 300gr NP to 1850, and loaded 405 gr Cast Performance flat nose at 1725 for the M and loaded 350gr Hornady JFP at 2400fps and 330gr Barnes banded solids at 2400fps for the Mauser.

What I learned this year - the Noslers were just as effective at the lower velocity on my girlfriend's very first ever kill - a Gemsbok broadside shoulder at 130yds - stopped just under the off side skin. The Cast Performance passed completely through one broadside Gemsbok. The 350gr Hornady entered the front left chest and stopped at the right rear hind quarter of a Gemsbok at about 40yds. Lastly, the 330gr BBS on a Zebra - first shot penciled through the chest a little low broadside at about 75yds, it didn't know exactly where the shot came from, ran about forty yds farther out and turned broadside again. Second shot, through the chest, again a little low penciled through. It ran nearly straight away and the third shot (maybe 140yds) I tried the "Texas Heart" shot and was a little low and right of the spine and missed the hip too - bullet exited the chest.

Total of all lessons learned for myself (use or not as you wish):

1. .458 and 300gr NP at mid to upper end 45-70 & 450M are terrific on African PG.

2. .458 hard cast at moderately hot 45-70 & 450M velocity is terrific on African PG.

3. .458 330 BBS max loaded for use only in modern #1 and bolt actions could be used on DG where MAX penetration is required/desired.

4. .458 350gr Hornaby JFP at 2400fps is a Hammer - sat the Gemsbok down backward on it's haunches and then straight down - DRT. Since it was designed with a heavier jacket and intended for the 458 Win Mag they should work really well at the lower velocity of the 45-70, 450M and act a bit like a slightly expanding solid. I'll be testing that out on next years trip.

5. Should have had loaded the 350 JFP Hornady as my first two shots when I shot the Zebra, with the BBS as the third and fourth. Wasn't expecting the Zebra (not normally in the area we were hunting) and was wanting to test the BBS on an end to end Gemsbok shot. As it were, ended with an end to end Zebra pass through.

6. The .458 330gr Barnes Banded Solid is designed for the .458 SOCOM and is to long to fit in the Marlins and the band placement and the hardness of material don't make it practical to seat it deep enough and use a Lee Factory Crimp die. They might work in a #1 if the throat is deep enough - I haven't tested mine yet.
Why did I use .458 instead of 45-70 or 450M or 458 Win Mag or 458 Lott - because I think too many people are getting wrapped around the platform launching the projectile vs the projectile performance required to take the game and then selecting the platform required to get the projectile to the required performance.

The truth is nobody, man nor animal, can tell what kind of rifle the same .458 dia bullet at XXXX fps came from. Just that the higher the velocity required mixed with the distance used limits the number of possibilities.

Did I already say great eye candy!!

I would argue that a 357 is not even close to the potential with an Arrow.

I've killed a lot of big animals with a bow, and seen a lot of bears and deer shot with a handgun. The arrow hit animals may run further, but more game has been lost with small handguns like a 357 then with an arrow.

It's an interesting conversation, as they kill in different ways, but having killed and seen killed a whole lot of game with both, I cannot agree that the 357 is " more powerful"

Many state game departments in the USA agree, few allow a 357 for hunting bigger game, all allow archery

Here is a great link to a site wherein there are a couple of guys doing a LOT of big bore bullet penetration testing. Main guy as the ears of several bullet manufactures and is sorting out a lot of info and missinfo on a boat load of bullets. Now up to 96 pages of photos, test data and extraneous comments, but based on his testing, some of the modern solids pushed at velocities attainable with modern lever guns have been VERY impressive.

Bullet Testing

I suppose when one always advises a bullet to go splat on stuff, and picks "soft" ones, the 357 seems a pretty weak wounder. Doubly so with one tiny entrance hole.

I have a friend who only uses a 357 and a sadly now defunct 180gr.factory load. He has never lost a deer out of the half dozen he shot with it and one went from brisket out of the rear "cheek".

In both cases they can either kill very well or wound like most things; the most common wound seen around here with a bow is an arrow stuck in the shoulder knuckle, in which the underpowered 357 with the right bullet (even some of the wrong) has no trouble with.

Perhaps the arrow tip and poundage can be manipulated to do such, much as a 357 can grow a 18" carbine barrel and a proper bullet....

IMO, the archery allowances have been granted a lobby based on a perceived lack of power and greater challenge; I'd imagine some shrieks of horror and loud clamoring if 357 wielders were allowed "their" seasons and access...

There is no doubt in my mind that properly hardened cast bullets out of a 45/70, 90, 110, etc at traditional velocities (1300 fps or so) will shoot through just about anything. Where I would venture with some trepidation is where elephant or rhino are concerned. Also, it is my personal preference not to use single shots on DG especially in thick cover but I would not hesitate with proper backup. Finally, I do not have enough experience with lever guns (although I am acquring and learning rapidly) on the reliability of same compared to a bolt.

JorgeI:

Something that most people don't realize is the 1300fps is the old original black powder "Trapdoor" level loads with 405 and 500 gr cast lead. When you consider the use of modern smokeless powders and modern lever action, modern falling blocks and bolt actions that can push modern 300-450 grain hard cast, jacketed and the new mono-metal solids from 1600 to well over 2300fps, new life is breathed into the 'ol cartridge.

Though I have not yet hunted DG, I would personally not do it with a single shot either - that is my pref but if someone else wants to and his PH is willing...more power to 'um.

If you haven't played with a lever gun - give one a try. Are they the "one gun solution" for world wide hunting for everyone everywhere....no, but I think too many people write them off unnecessarily too.

Oh, Jorge has been playing with a lever gun!!! He's got a new Winchester 1895 in .405 that he's now very fond of!!!

See this thread for more:

.405 Win vs Cape Buff - who wins?

-Bob F.

That additional velocity really is at the crux of all this isn't it? As soon as one transitions out the low teens into the low 2ks you are, with a hard cast bullet, essentially duplicating the milder express rifle performance with a solid. Those early guys used their 12 and 10 bore rifles for plains game but relied on 8 and 4 bores for DG.

Just saw Jorge's thread with his 405 Win. I'm of the thinking he now understands why so many people like them.

RedLeg - I think the combination of the additional velocity now available along with the improved bullets have definitely improved things.

If you think about it, 130 years ago if you tried to push the old soft lead cast bullets individuals made much over 13-1400fps they would just flatten out. To compensate they used heavy bullets. There were a few million American Bison killed with 400 to 500+ grain soft cast lead at those velocities.

The combination of 130yrs of improve metallurgy in both rifle actions as well as projectile construction and modern powders give us the best stuff that there has ever been - especially when you toss in the new mono-metal solids that are really turning conventional "wisdom" on its head.

M3T: there are a couple of well-versed member here in BP and the 45 family of cartridges that have clearly demonstrated a 45 hard lead pill (20:1) at BP veleocites will penetrate clean through a buffalo sized animal and more and I agree. Where these old cartridges (and I include the 45/70) fall short is with soft points, they just can't compete with more modern high velocity cartridges like a 416 for example let alone a 460 Weatherby, but with solid bullets, that 1300 plus fps seems right magical and will punch through anything, leaving two nice, 45 cal holes for the animal to bleed out. The softs have the advantage of more tissue damage and when coupled with velocity, it really makes an impression on a buffalo. With a slow moving hard lead pill, it will just shoot right through and the animal will maybe run off 50 yards or so and just keel over, pretty much like a solid out of a modern big or medium bore but then again I don't believe solids are nessesary for anything other than elephant, rhino or hippo on dry land. If you stick a soft point(or a pure lead bullet that easily deforms) on a slow mover you won't get much penetration whereas with a faster (above 2100) Big Bore you will. Cats are another issue all together as they are really succeptible to shock induced velocity.

500 grain Woodleigh fired out of a 45-70 into wet newsprint at only 1600 fps and less than 35,000 PSI.



Jayco

The .45-70 has been my favorite hunting cartridge for over a couple of decades. That involves personal handloads in a few Marlins, some Rugers, an NEF and H&R. Currently, I use a classic M1895 with 22" tube, an H&R single shot and a Ruger No.1 (long-throated).

These are all currently loaded for bear. The Marlin with 405 Rems at 2100 fps, the H&R with the 330 BB at 2375 fps and the Ruger with 350 Speer HotCors at 2500 fps. You can read about any of this on my web site.

But in a phone conversation with one of the major players on the forum where Michael posts his testing results, he was obviously very surprised at the results I was getting from 3 Rugers (unmodified)firing the 500gr Hornady, as was the chief ballistician at the powder company where my loads were tested over a dozen years ago! When he (the ballistician)finally phoned to give me the results, his first words were: "You have just reinvented the .458 Winchester Magnum!" And he wasn't kidding. That was from a 22" unmodified Ruger No.1 in .45-70. And, we're not talking 1800 fps, either! Since it's been long-throated (10 years ago)hundreds of 500s have gone down the barrel at an additional 150 fps!. Today, my favorite load for that rifle is a 350TSX at 2470 fps. That bullet is seated to the bottom "cannelure".

While I wouldn't shy from hunting DG in Africa with that firearm, I'd probably go with a repeater, especially on my first attempt. But one thing I do know is that my Marlin, loaded with my favorite 465gr hardcast at 1900 fps, will flatten any bear that ever waddled!

I'm firstly a hunter (60 years) I've tried all the usual (except the .270Win ) , most of the magnums from 7mm to .458, and the .458 is like a turbo .45-70, that's all, but when it comes down to it, the .45-70, in one style or another with todays powders, metallurgy and bullets, remains my all-time favorite.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Wow nasty post. I don't want or need advice. Well my mind is almost made up, but I want to understand what people think.

400 grain bullet @2000-2100 fps is as powerful as the .450/.400 nitro. IT will get the job done in my opinion

The American bison which are larger then the cape buffalo and the largest species of buffalo in the world weighing in at 3,000 pounds was killed by american frontiersman with a .45-70. If it can work on our bison it can work on your buffalo

While I agree that the Bison is bigger than the Cape Buffalo, I can not agree that Bison wiegh 3,000 pounds. one may go 2000 but 3000 pounds, Nope



Height: 6-6.5 feet at the shoulder.
Length: 10-12.5 feet.
Weight: 900-2,000 lbs; males are larger than females.
Lifespan: 18-22 years in the wild; over 30 years in captivity.

The bison is much "thinner" through the withers that a Cape Buffalo and has nowhere near the stamina and power of a Cape. Of course a 45/70 can, will and has killed plenty of Cape Buffalo. A 400gr 45/70's sectional density is nowhere near that of a 400gr 450/400 and given similar bullet comparison will penetrate less. Logcutter those are very nice mushroomend bullets but what kind of penetration did you get or did you compare that same bullet at say 2100 fps. I can tell you it has been done and that same bullet at 458 velocities will far outpenetrate that 45/70 AT 1600. Polska, how many Bison and or Cape Buffalo have you taken with the 45/70?

Man, those Woodleighs are beautiful.

where did you get that, it's wrong. Look up any encyclopedia or any biologist that studies buffalo and they will tell you the the Wood Bison and the european wood bison are the largest bovines in the world. They weigh 3,000 pounds, while a cape only weighst 2000-2,500 tops.

Read this from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Bison

"The wood bison is one of the largest species of bovid in the world, surpassed by only the Asian gaur and wild Asian water buffalo."

I meant wood bison which is a slightly largest species then the plains bison in america

Thinner? it stands 7-9 feet high at the shoulder, and it has to fight off winter temperatures of -50 degrees fahrenheit with blowing winds at up to 100 miles per hour. It has to fend off packs of wolves that have more endurance then lions and can chase a bison for days without tiring and for 100's of miles. They have to fend off Kodiak and Grizzly bears which can weigh in excess of 1000 and up to 1,500 pounds. They have to fend off cougars also which are the same size as african leopards. So i wouldn't say they don't have to put up with as much.

Check this video. Bison tosses guy 10 feet in the air effortless. Notice how he starts hoofing the ground just before he charges

Look at the MASS of that bison, it's easily bigger then the biggest cape buffalo

Look at how tall it's shoulder is, that guy has to be what atleast 5-6' tall and his shoulder is taller then him

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNvTHOrTf_Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwrdHrtj1SY

look at this buffalo goes nuts right near old faithful, your telling me that this thing chargin at you full speed is like getting hit by a tank. Look at the sheer MASS and POWER they are capable of, and he was just trotting around, imagine full speed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooKJ6926rXo&feature=related

Watch towards the end of the video how small the pick up truck looks compare to the bison. His shoulders are taller then the pick up truck. Amazing creatures

Look at the slabs of muscle around his shoulders and chest area, busting through all that muscle and bone is like trying to shoot through an engine block.

look AT THIS STAND OFF

GRIZZLY PICKS UP SENT OF 2 BISON, BISON STAND THEIR GROUND, BEAR WANTS NO PART OF THEM AND WALKS AWAY

look at the mass of the grizzly, the grizzly is about 1000 pounds, and if you say the cape buffalo has to be tougher then a grizzly, a grizzly would destroy a pride of lions

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOYX3-Pov7U

look at the size of that bear, thing is a tank himself and he wanted no part of those bison, he knows he would get owned

Polska, I have no doubt you are as expert on Bison and African dangerous game as dilligent, untiring research on youtube can make you. There is a vicarious experience aspect to the internet that is somehow more impowering than merely reading about a subject. It causes people to point to clips and say things like:

"Look at the slabs of muscle around his shoulders and chest area, busting through all that muscle and bone is like trying to shoot through an engine block."

I've lived on Fort Sill and though I didn't pull the trigger, I participated in several PAC shootings of Bison on the maneuver ranges. That included one botched first shot at a bull and the ensuing "follow-up." I have participated as a guest observer in the annual buffalo round-up on the Whichita Mountains Wildlife refuge. I have hunted Cape Buffalo. I don't watch much youtube, but I read a lot and have a wide range of colleagues with vast collective African experience. I am hardly an expert. But I at least have a small bit of personal experience across both species. A bison is a magnificent largely placid animal. He takes some killing. But his chest isn't a block of iron, and he doesn't weigh three thousand pounds. A cape buffalo doesn't weigh two thousand pounds. But he isn't placid and he is no bison.

:::SIGH::: A LARGE Cape will go maybe 1800 pounds, that's it. An American Bison; and a Brahma are heavier and the Eland is heavier as well, but the facts are there; The Cape is a much tougher animal to kill and much more dangerous when wounded. But again just tell us about your experiences with the 45/70 on live animals and not phone books.

Well.....Ive got my coffee, and it appears Ive come to the right place for Monday Morning Entertainment...


Ingwe

I wouldn't want to piss off ANY critter that edges or passes a ton and has horns

I don't wanna pizz off any critter bigger than ME....and though pretty portly, I'm still way shy of a Ton...

Ingwe

I don't know what prehistoric data your looking at but a cape buffalo would be off the charts huge at 2000 lbs, and a bison has probably not been to three thousand since modern man walked the earth.

An enormous bison is 2200, and the biggest Cape buffalo I've ever seen would be well under 2000. most are probably in the 1300-1600 range. A bull Eland is usually quite a bit heavier then a Cape buffalo, and they are rare over 2000lbs. We weight a whole lot of Eland here when they get to the skinning room. I've never seen a big bull cape buffalo bigger then a big Bull Eland.

There are plenty of Bison in the PNW and Montana and Idaho. I have been in attendance at the Bison council meetings here. Nobody is growing Bison 3000lbs. and these are farm fed genetically engineered monster bulls. Bragging starts at 2000lbs, that is where everyone hopes to get the big herd bulls. Never heard anyone of these guys even close to 3000 lbs, 2200+- would be the biggest number I've ever heard of.

As far as will to live and thickness to penetrate. Wow tough call, Cape buffalo are definitely wider through the shoulders and seem to be more solidly built. The amount of hair between the two adds a lot to the visual difference. Bison have long thick hair and a cape buffalo seems to have been airbrushed with hair.

There are a lot of people here with extraordinary experience, it gets tough to start throwing out random numbers/facts/examples and expect these to go unchallenged!

I promised myself I was going to stay out of this.....but oh well

Right on JJ! This dude's mind was made up before he even did the OP. I look at his number of posts, and his claims, and think WTF?!

This coming from me, who hunted with a 45-70, in Africa, and would do so again.


maddog

I know what you were talking about. 3000 pound Bision is pure imagination. Cape Buffalo at or over 2000 pounds is also imagination


This is a mature Bison that went 70 1/4 SCI points wieht was about 1850 pounds. Like JJ said 2000 pound is a big bull and 2200 is exceptional

I never said I was an expert i'm just point out videos and articles on the web. I don't appreciate your condescending tone either, you think your a badass because your an army ranger. Your ego sounds really big, maybe you should check your ego when you log in and leave that [bleep] out of posts

Then read this article i found on google. It says they "usually weigh 1 ton but 3000 pound have been recorded"

http://www.mnzoo.com/animals/animals_bison.asp

you guys are all wrong, look at THE NUMEROUS WEB SITES I FOUND THAT STATE BISON WEIGHT 2000-3000PDS

guess your ego's can't handle the fact that the american bison can own your pussy cape buffalo and gay double rifles

http://www.museum.state.il.us/exhibits/agriculture/htmls/Animals/an_prairie.html

http://www.huntingtripsrus.com/bison-buffalo-hunting.html

http://www.mnzoo.com/animals/animals_bison.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Bison

wikipedia says they typically weigh 800 to 2200 but "specimens weighing as much as 2,500 have been recorded"

if a kodiak bear can reach 1,500 i have no doubt that a bison can reach 3,000

According to the Guniess Book of World records the tallest person was,

Tallest Man

WHO:
Robert Pershing Wadlow
WHAT:
2.72 m (8 ft 11 in)
WHERE:
Alton, Illinois, USA
WHEN:
Last measured on July 15, 1940

The tallest man in medical history for whom there is irrefutable evidence is Robert Pershing Wadlow. He was born at Alton, Illinois, USA, on February 22, 1918, and when he was last measured on June 27, 1940, was found to be 2.72 m (8 ft 11.1 in) tall.

Wadlow died at 1:30 a.m. on July 15, 1940, in a hotel in Manistee, Michigan, as a result of a septic blister on his right ankle caused by a brace, which had been poorly fitted only a week earlier. He was buried in Oakwood Cemetery, Alton, in a coffin measuring 3.28 m (10 ft 9 in) long, 81 cm (32 in) wide and 76 cm (30 in) deep.

Wadlow's greatest recorded weight was 222.71 kg (35 st 1 lb) on his 21st birthday and he weighed 199 kg (31 st 5 lb) at the time of his death. His shoe size was 37AA (47 cm, 18� in long) and his hands measured 32.4 cm (12� in) from the wrist to the tip of the middle finger. He wore a size 25 ring. His arm span was 2.88 m (9 ft 5� in) and his peak daily food consumption was 8000 calories.

At the age of nine, he was able to carry his father Harold F. Wadlow, later Mayor of Alton, who stood 1.8 m (5 ft 11 in) and weighed 77 kg (170 lb), up the stairs of the family home.




http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/records/human_body/extreme_bodies/tallest_man.aspx



That was one person out of Millions, many Millions, I'd wager

This is of course an extreme as is your claim of a 3000 pound Bison, 1 may have esixted but certainly not the norm

The question that immediately comes to mind is, "So why did you ask for people's advice in the first place?"

Here's your original question: "...If I brought this ammo with me to africa I think it would do the job against all game.. yes or no?"

Your link above states, Animal Bites
Height: 5�6 feet at the shoulder
Length: 7�12 feet
Weight: 2,000 pounds


Get off of your high horse there dude

I heard it on the internet, so it must be true..

OK boys, after 16 pages, and 46 posts,....HE'S a TROLL!! I've put 2 posts into these 16 pages..... I think in'ts time to return to the sniper thread...the dude's a dickweed....some of you figgered it out earlier....



maddog

Im still not getting this need to prove this insane claim.

I have worked with the bison ranchers in the PNW for well over a decade. The breed and genetically engineer the herds for the biggest possible animals. Yet none of them are getting bulls at 8-10 years old that reach even 2300lbs?

Where are these 1.5 ton beasts at? do they grow bigger someplace else? Wyoming Idaho, Utah, Montana are the core of Bison habitat, yet nobody raising them and breeding for mass has ever had one this big

Ahh, just had a thought.... posed its Greenhorn or huntsonora? Just getting back for the BS on AFTERUM's thread?? If not, I apologise....


maddog

There is one place that Bison get to the 3000 pound mark, it is in the imagination of one blow hard internet comando

jwp, I think you ment 3000 mark... but I know what you meant....




maddog

Oops... I corrected the typo, Thanks

See...BFaucett was trying to make something decent out of this thread;

And here ya' are just now figuring it was lame to start with.

No, we knew it, just hoping that BFaucett would post about 5 pages of T&A to get through the BS.....

maddog

I been riding this one out but I know in my own mind, that Bison might approach the 2100-lb weight but I'll give you 7 to 1 odds on them not reaching 3000-lbs on the hoof live weight.

Eland are bigger generally speaking than a Bison, I have shot 4 of them and the 3 that got weighed were in the 1500 to 2000 pound class.
We have a small herd of bison not far from me and most bulls I have seen were under 1200 pounds, these are 5 and 6 year olds.

The largest Cape Buffalo I have ever seen on video, books or in Africa was no where near 2000 pounds, 1500-lbs I would estimate. Those that wish to shoot such an animal with a pistol, bow are what ever weapon of choice, as long as it's legal, have at it and enjoy the experience. Myself, I'll stick with the model 70 bolt gun!

Well, I do what I can to help out....











-Bob F.

Thank you for doing your best Bob F.

Hope this thread can now stay on track....

Now' we're talking...

WOOOO, I love me some Jamie...now where's blue sweater porch girl?

That brings something to mind...it's not talking.

As an aside I do have a sudden urge to floss however.

Bob, you have again saved the day and the thread. Mo'pleeze.

-Bob F.

Well it turned out to be a better thread than I expected, I was expecting the same old BS on the .45-70...Instead I have been bomarded with the scenery, and it is fantastic, unfortunatly it drags up old memories at least the ones I can remember!

The 45-70 is not an intelligent pick for African Dangerous Game btw..I wonder just how many 45-70 users have actually looked at a charging Cape Buffalo, elephant or Lion. I have and you couldn't pay me enough to stand a DG charge with one with any of the mythical handloads.

I guess that the Grizzly Ammo's 400 grain Punch bullet loads at 2000 FPS would just bounce off...





There are many loads for the 45-70 that will exit and that is not marginal IMHO&E. I have revolvers that will break shoulders and exit

sarcasm is not a good tool to illustrate a point. 400gr 45cal@ 2000 fps is VASTLY inferior to a 500gr@2150 just from a Sectional Density perspective(penetration). If the bullet you show is a solid, I'm sure it penetrates like all getout but I think you miss the point between ADEQUATE, OPTIMUM and SUPERIOR. Clearly the 45/70 makes the adequate and nothing more. As I mentioned on a previous post, I saw some chinese lady kill a buffalo with a 454 Casull the other day so there is NO QUESTION a 45/70 will do that and more, but to say it is a "dangeorus game" cartridge is nonsense. If it was, it would be all over Africa instead of the 458 Win Mag just to name one.

I fail too see what makes a 500 grain bullet Superior when the 400 will shoot completely through a Buffalo and exit


The more I hunt the more I am convivnced that is enough is enough and more is not always superior

Well for one thing if you are using solids on anything but elephant, rhino and hippo on dry land you're well, dense, except with a 45/70 you are forced to use solids or hard cast bullets to get penetration and that's ok to do. With today's modern bullets out of an optimum caliber, solids are just not needed and a soft point out of a 45/70 IS inadequate as they will not penetrate with enough reliability. a 45/70 a @ 1330 fps and a 20:1 cast will shoot clean through a buffalo and he'll just run off and die, no question about that. Same for that 400gr pill you talk about, no doubt, but when stacked up against say a 400gr TSX@2400 plus out of a 416 the 416 will probablyh not exit but it will break both shoulders, cause massive internal damage and kill more efficiently. And in the spirit of a broken record, the 45/70 isn't what one might say ubiquitous in the hands or PH or clients anywhere in Africa.

Polska,
What are you planning on shooting. Will it be dangerous game? If its plains game, it might be a bit much. Waiting on your answer.

He wants this for a 45-70 .

A lot can be said for those who don't reload; some seem to have no limits to be imposed....

Handgun hunting for DG is specialty hunting, IMHO. Your point that you can get your slugs to exit is fine. There is a reality about why they are called "dangerous". Cape buffalo are not placid bison. Many will drop with a well placed shot, however some don't. When those that don't run off into the long grass and thick stuff, you have a problem. In Africa, you can't just let them "stiffen up and die". You have to follow them up. Since much of buffalo hunting is done late in the day as they move to water at dusk, you have the problem of fading light. Well hit buffalo have made mincemeat out of too many people to convince me that I can pronounce the 45/70, .405, .454 Casull, .45 Win Mag, or any number of other cartridges as good calibers for that job.
In experienced hands, sure, try it. Most of the time, you'll have no problem. Let's not give an inexperienced armchair ballistition the idea that he can run off to Africa and plug away at buffalo and elephant and expect them to expire on the spot simple because the book says there is enough energy to kill them.

(Bob-Save us!)

Let the master step in Jeff, here you go, a little "double" to placate:

Definitely "big bore". I would use extreme caution in stalking this trophy. Had to do a double take. If she had blonde hair........you don't have that many books!

Jorge,

Where did you get a photo of my future wife?!

George

I like books!

I don't know if this it is OK to link another forum, but thought this sniper like thread might fit here


http://www.fark.com/cgi/comments.pl?IDLink=5659055

Hey for a new guy, ya done good!


maddog

man I wishI could find some of those 400gr@2000 45/70 around here. Bet they would be just the thing on our "dangerous does". Till I find some I'll have to settle with 300hps and a case full of RE7
Oh no I think I was being sarcastic.

Ask Hatari...

If my school's libraian looked like that, I would have stayed after school everyday.

There's just no substitute for big doubles...

I'm telling ya.... It's just time to say to heck with it and go fishing...












-Bob F.

-Bob F.

WOOOHOOO!


maddog

I'll tell you where! He took that picture in my library!

Expat

How much is a box of that Grizzly ammo? Do they sell the "Punch" bullet as a component? I'm betting it isn't much cheaper than a box of 416 ammo......

http://www.fark.com/cgi/comments.pl?IDLink=5701763

MD 20/20, Sorry, I dropped this.

If I had ever gone to Africa....it would have been with Peter Hathaway Capsticks caliber aka .470 Evans double!!