Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa .45-70 in africa

Radical Concept.....



Ingwe

maddog

Gents:

Beautiful photos aside (actually had to triple check a few), I just returned from my third trip to Namibia a few weeks ago. All three have been with some flavor of 45-70 and 450 Marlin.

First year was with a 45-70 Marlin 1895G and a Ruger #1. Used only 300 gr JHPs and cast at moderately hot velocities. That was all I had at the time and because I picked up a VERY short notice cancellation hunt I didn't have time to work up better. Only hunted PG and took Springbok, Gemsbok and Kudu. What I learned about the ammo was Springbok are like Whitetail and Gemsbok and Kudu are not.

Second year we took Marlin 1895G and 1895M and loaded 300gr Nosler partitions for the G at 2000fps and 405gr Rem's for the M at about 1950fps. Hunted same place for PG again. What I learned in trip two was - the 300gr NP all stopped just under the off side skin on Gemsbok (3) at varying ranges of 70-150 yds. The 405s didn't pass through either on 2 more Gemsbok from 100-130 yds. Four shots total and all four stopped just under the off side skin. BIG holes but they were driven too fast as the jackets separated.

This year we took 1895G, 1895M and my newly acquired Siamese Mauser converted to 45-70. Downloaded the 300gr NP to 1850, and loaded 405 gr Cast Performance flat nose at 1725 for the M and loaded 350gr Hornady JFP at 2400fps and 330gr Barnes banded solids at 2400fps for the Mauser.

What I learned this year - the Noslers were just as effective at the lower velocity on my girlfriend's very first ever kill - a Gemsbok broadside shoulder at 130yds - stopped just under the off side skin. The Cast Performance passed completely through one broadside Gemsbok. The 350gr Hornady entered the front left chest and stopped at the right rear hind quarter of a Gemsbok at about 40yds. Lastly, the 330gr BBS on a Zebra - first shot penciled through the chest a little low broadside at about 75yds, it didn't know exactly where the shot came from, ran about forty yds farther out and turned broadside again. Second shot, through the chest, again a little low penciled through. It ran nearly straight away and the third shot (maybe 140yds) I tried the "Texas Heart" shot and was a little low and right of the spine and missed the hip too - bullet exited the chest.

Total of all lessons learned for myself (use or not as you wish):

1. .458 and 300gr NP at mid to upper end 45-70 & 450M are terrific on African PG.

2. .458 hard cast at moderately hot 45-70 & 450M velocity is terrific on African PG.

3. .458 330 BBS max loaded for use only in modern #1 and bolt actions could be used on DG where MAX penetration is required/desired.

4. .458 350gr Hornaby JFP at 2400fps is a Hammer - sat the Gemsbok down backward on it's haunches and then straight down - DRT. Since it was designed with a heavier jacket and intended for the 458 Win Mag they should work really well at the lower velocity of the 45-70, 450M and act a bit like a slightly expanding solid. I'll be testing that out on next years trip.

5. Should have had loaded the 350 JFP Hornady as my first two shots when I shot the Zebra, with the BBS as the third and fourth. Wasn't expecting the Zebra (not normally in the area we were hunting) and was wanting to test the BBS on an end to end Gemsbok shot. As it were, ended with an end to end Zebra pass through.

6. The .458 330gr Barnes Banded Solid is designed for the .458 SOCOM and is to long to fit in the Marlins and the band placement and the hardness of material don't make it practical to seat it deep enough and use a Lee Factory Crimp die. They might work in a #1 if the throat is deep enough - I haven't tested mine yet.
Why did I use .458 instead of 45-70 or 450M or 458 Win Mag or 458 Lott - because I think too many people are getting wrapped around the platform launching the projectile vs the projectile performance required to take the game and then selecting the platform required to get the projectile to the required performance.

The truth is nobody, man nor animal, can tell what kind of rifle the same .458 dia bullet at XXXX fps came from. Just that the higher the velocity required mixed with the distance used limits the number of possibilities.

Did I already say great eye candy!!

I would argue that a 357 is not even close to the potential with an Arrow.

I've killed a lot of big animals with a bow, and seen a lot of bears and deer shot with a handgun. The arrow hit animals may run further, but more game has been lost with small handguns like a 357 then with an arrow.

It's an interesting conversation, as they kill in different ways, but having killed and seen killed a whole lot of game with both, I cannot agree that the 357 is " more powerful"

Many state game departments in the USA agree, few allow a 357 for hunting bigger game, all allow archery

Here is a great link to a site wherein there are a couple of guys doing a LOT of big bore bullet penetration testing. Main guy as the ears of several bullet manufactures and is sorting out a lot of info and missinfo on a boat load of bullets. Now up to 96 pages of photos, test data and extraneous comments, but based on his testing, some of the modern solids pushed at velocities attainable with modern lever guns have been VERY impressive.

Bullet Testing

I suppose when one always advises a bullet to go splat on stuff, and picks "soft" ones, the 357 seems a pretty weak wounder. Doubly so with one tiny entrance hole.

I have a friend who only uses a 357 and a sadly now defunct 180gr.factory load. He has never lost a deer out of the half dozen he shot with it and one went from brisket out of the rear "cheek".

In both cases they can either kill very well or wound like most things; the most common wound seen around here with a bow is an arrow stuck in the shoulder knuckle, in which the underpowered 357 with the right bullet (even some of the wrong) has no trouble with.

Perhaps the arrow tip and poundage can be manipulated to do such, much as a 357 can grow a 18" carbine barrel and a proper bullet....

IMO, the archery allowances have been granted a lobby based on a perceived lack of power and greater challenge; I'd imagine some shrieks of horror and loud clamoring if 357 wielders were allowed "their" seasons and access...

There is no doubt in my mind that properly hardened cast bullets out of a 45/70, 90, 110, etc at traditional velocities (1300 fps or so) will shoot through just about anything. Where I would venture with some trepidation is where elephant or rhino are concerned. Also, it is my personal preference not to use single shots on DG especially in thick cover but I would not hesitate with proper backup. Finally, I do not have enough experience with lever guns (although I am acquring and learning rapidly) on the reliability of same compared to a bolt.

JorgeI:

Something that most people don't realize is the 1300fps is the old original black powder "Trapdoor" level loads with 405 and 500 gr cast lead. When you consider the use of modern smokeless powders and modern lever action, modern falling blocks and bolt actions that can push modern 300-450 grain hard cast, jacketed and the new mono-metal solids from 1600 to well over 2300fps, new life is breathed into the 'ol cartridge.

Though I have not yet hunted DG, I would personally not do it with a single shot either - that is my pref but if someone else wants to and his PH is willing...more power to 'um.

If you haven't played with a lever gun - give one a try. Are they the "one gun solution" for world wide hunting for everyone everywhere....no, but I think too many people write them off unnecessarily too.

Oh, Jorge has been playing with a lever gun!!! He's got a new Winchester 1895 in .405 that he's now very fond of!!!

See this thread for more:

.405 Win vs Cape Buff - who wins?

-Bob F.

That additional velocity really is at the crux of all this isn't it? As soon as one transitions out the low teens into the low 2ks you are, with a hard cast bullet, essentially duplicating the milder express rifle performance with a solid. Those early guys used their 12 and 10 bore rifles for plains game but relied on 8 and 4 bores for DG.

Just saw Jorge's thread with his 405 Win. I'm of the thinking he now understands why so many people like them.

RedLeg - I think the combination of the additional velocity now available along with the improved bullets have definitely improved things.

If you think about it, 130 years ago if you tried to push the old soft lead cast bullets individuals made much over 13-1400fps they would just flatten out. To compensate they used heavy bullets. There were a few million American Bison killed with 400 to 500+ grain soft cast lead at those velocities.

The combination of 130yrs of improve metallurgy in both rifle actions as well as projectile construction and modern powders give us the best stuff that there has ever been - especially when you toss in the new mono-metal solids that are really turning conventional "wisdom" on its head.

M3T: there are a couple of well-versed member here in BP and the 45 family of cartridges that have clearly demonstrated a 45 hard lead pill (20:1) at BP veleocites will penetrate clean through a buffalo sized animal and more and I agree. Where these old cartridges (and I include the 45/70) fall short is with soft points, they just can't compete with more modern high velocity cartridges like a 416 for example let alone a 460 Weatherby, but with solid bullets, that 1300 plus fps seems right magical and will punch through anything, leaving two nice, 45 cal holes for the animal to bleed out. The softs have the advantage of more tissue damage and when coupled with velocity, it really makes an impression on a buffalo. With a slow moving hard lead pill, it will just shoot right through and the animal will maybe run off 50 yards or so and just keel over, pretty much like a solid out of a modern big or medium bore but then again I don't believe solids are nessesary for anything other than elephant, rhino or hippo on dry land. If you stick a soft point(or a pure lead bullet that easily deforms) on a slow mover you won't get much penetration whereas with a faster (above 2100) Big Bore you will. Cats are another issue all together as they are really succeptible to shock induced velocity.

500 grain Woodleigh fired out of a 45-70 into wet newsprint at only 1600 fps and less than 35,000 PSI.



Jayco

The .45-70 has been my favorite hunting cartridge for over a couple of decades. That involves personal handloads in a few Marlins, some Rugers, an NEF and H&R. Currently, I use a classic M1895 with 22" tube, an H&R single shot and a Ruger No.1 (long-throated).

These are all currently loaded for bear. The Marlin with 405 Rems at 2100 fps, the H&R with the 330 BB at 2375 fps and the Ruger with 350 Speer HotCors at 2500 fps. You can read about any of this on my web site.

But in a phone conversation with one of the major players on the forum where Michael posts his testing results, he was obviously very surprised at the results I was getting from 3 Rugers (unmodified)firing the 500gr Hornady, as was the chief ballistician at the powder company where my loads were tested over a dozen years ago! When he (the ballistician)finally phoned to give me the results, his first words were: "You have just reinvented the .458 Winchester Magnum!" And he wasn't kidding. That was from a 22" unmodified Ruger No.1 in .45-70. And, we're not talking 1800 fps, either! Since it's been long-throated (10 years ago)hundreds of 500s have gone down the barrel at an additional 150 fps!. Today, my favorite load for that rifle is a 350TSX at 2470 fps. That bullet is seated to the bottom "cannelure".

While I wouldn't shy from hunting DG in Africa with that firearm, I'd probably go with a repeater, especially on my first attempt. But one thing I do know is that my Marlin, loaded with my favorite 465gr hardcast at 1900 fps, will flatten any bear that ever waddled!

I'm firstly a hunter (60 years) I've tried all the usual (except the .270Win ) , most of the magnums from 7mm to .458, and the .458 is like a turbo .45-70, that's all, but when it comes down to it, the .45-70, in one style or another with todays powders, metallurgy and bullets, remains my all-time favorite.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Wow nasty post. I don't want or need advice. Well my mind is almost made up, but I want to understand what people think.

400 grain bullet @2000-2100 fps is as powerful as the .450/.400 nitro. IT will get the job done in my opinion

The American bison which are larger then the cape buffalo and the largest species of buffalo in the world weighing in at 3,000 pounds was killed by american frontiersman with a .45-70. If it can work on our bison it can work on your buffalo

While I agree that the Bison is bigger than the Cape Buffalo, I can not agree that Bison wiegh 3,000 pounds. one may go 2000 but 3000 pounds, Nope



Height: 6-6.5 feet at the shoulder.
Length: 10-12.5 feet.
Weight: 900-2,000 lbs; males are larger than females.
Lifespan: 18-22 years in the wild; over 30 years in captivity.

The bison is much "thinner" through the withers that a Cape Buffalo and has nowhere near the stamina and power of a Cape. Of course a 45/70 can, will and has killed plenty of Cape Buffalo. A 400gr 45/70's sectional density is nowhere near that of a 400gr 450/400 and given similar bullet comparison will penetrate less. Logcutter those are very nice mushroomend bullets but what kind of penetration did you get or did you compare that same bullet at say 2100 fps. I can tell you it has been done and that same bullet at 458 velocities will far outpenetrate that 45/70 AT 1600. Polska, how many Bison and or Cape Buffalo have you taken with the 45/70?

Man, those Woodleighs are beautiful.

where did you get that, it's wrong. Look up any encyclopedia or any biologist that studies buffalo and they will tell you the the Wood Bison and the european wood bison are the largest bovines in the world. They weigh 3,000 pounds, while a cape only weighst 2000-2,500 tops.

Read this from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Bison

"The wood bison is one of the largest species of bovid in the world, surpassed by only the Asian gaur and wild Asian water buffalo."

I meant wood bison which is a slightly largest species then the plains bison in america