The talk about bullets made me realize I have only seen one true bullet failure.
That was a 308 Winchester 150 gr XP3 bullet.
I have "recovered" some bullets from dead game that did not "look" like what I thought tgey should. I have asked allot of some bullets at times to get to a vital from a difficult presentation. Some of these I did not like the "look of the recovered" bullet. Now if I am doing serious hunting ($) I move up in power of cartridge and bullet weight as I may need to take my only shot from a difficult but "doable" angle. If my hunting allows time then I general go down in power of cartridge and am more picky with my shots.
I wonder in most cases is it the bullet or are we asking too much of it or I ability to make the shot? The client before me on my last hunt used 4 boxes of ammo. I wonder how much he complained about those 300 Weatherby bullets?

Photos of recovered bullets?

Recovered bullets = dead critters...

DF

I'm waiting for some evidence of the 150gr XP3 failure you experienced.

The shot in question was at 80 yards. All other distances with this bullet was from 200-400 yards and the performance was as it should have been.
My son shot the blesbuck with the shot penatration angling into the front chest cavity from the front. We chased after it in the Karoo for two hours untill we were able to get in front of it and he made another shot broadside as it passed at 325 yards dropping it. Untill we recovered it we had no idea what had happened as we could tell he hit it in a good spot we thought. The bullet never penatrated the chest cavity. There was no bullet fragments. It looked more like an exit wound than an entrance wound. It looked like the bullet "bounced" out for look of a better way to explain what happened. It looked like it entered and exited at the same point. The problem was it never penatrated the chest cavity which should have been no problem
Even when a bullet doesn't "look" like it worked if you recovered it then it must have. I figure if I find the bullet inside and the animal is found in a resonable time frame with an appropriate shot from me then it wasn't a total failure. In the above case the shot was good and if we would not have been lucky that this wide open area didn't allow me to keep the animal in sight to follow we would have never known. This was the first time I didn't think I would recover a wounded animal.

I guess that is why it's called "hunting" and not just "shooting" The variables. There are NO guarantees even in so called perfectly placed shots. Dead is dead and if recovered it's meat on the table. That equals good bullet performance.

Yep
I have shot allot of game like most of you and this is the only time I can find that I could actually blame it on the bullet on a properly placed shot

I've recovered darned few bullets from game. Most seem to pass through. Then again, I haven't hunted Africa, yet.

These discussions of various hunting bullets can be interesting.

When I head for Africa next year, plains game, I'm taking one of two rifles:

.30-06 with 180 gr Nosler Partitions (I know, boring, but I'll bet it works)

.375 with 260 gr Nosler Accubonds (This was Mule Deer's old rifle, and it's telling me it wants to go back. I'm listening)

One or the other. I don't expect any bullet problems.

Regards, Guy

Worst - and only - bullet failure was a 300 grain RWS Cone Point. I was told that I had to shoot a jackel by a PH and at the shot the rear half of the jackel exploded. I had no idea until that moment that this bullet was for varmints. The incident did, however, save me from using the bullets as I intended - on plains game.

Terry

I've experienced bullet failures on animals that died. I had a 190 grain Berger VLD out of a .300 Win blow up on the ribs of a little whitetail at 440 yards.Didn't make it inside. My kid killed it with his .257 Weatherby(100 grain NBT) at powderburn range and his bullet exited.

I shot another deer to ragdolls when the 160 grain Speer bullets blew up on contact. That was during one of the earlier component shortages, the shelves were bare and it was that or nothing. Turns out that they don't like STW velocity. 7 shots later it laid down.

I put 6 shots into a water buffalo with a .450 Nitro Express with Hornady DGX factory ammo. They blew up too,and although the bull was recovered I'll never accept that a buffalo bullet that penetrates inches instead of feet is anything but a failure.

I think bullet failures happen more often then people would like to admit. People who weren't even there will blame it on a shooter they don't even know, and since the animal ran off with the evidence...................................they can believe what they want or is convenient.Until it happens to them.

I too can attest to bullets being placed well but not doing their job. I'm not top of the line marksman, but most all of my deer have been shot on the run so not all "perfect" shots.

One of the few deer I killed with my 7mag took 5 shots, all through & through all in the vitals last and I believe the last one was in the head.

Bullet failure is part of why I'm going to start handloading and trying to learn as much as I can about bullet composition, velocities, performance, and reliability.

M70 Guy. I would not call your experiences failures. Rather they are what I would expect given the bullets you picked.
Berger bullets will not reliably hold together, period. Pick a premium hunting bullet...there are many. Speer bullets are not premium hunting bullets just as Sierra's are not.
The Hornady "dangerous game" softs are a fundamentally poor design. Their solids are good.
I don't think the bullets performed in an unusual manner...they were just poor choices.

Nope those bullets are sold as hunting bullets and they failed miserably case closed

I had a failure with Nosler Solid Bases when they first came out back in the early '80's. Complete jacket - core separation on pronghorn...

I agree that the Hornady DG softs are less than optimal. For one thing, they are not bonded. Their DG solids are not bonded either. My concern is if they "fishtail", the core will squeeze out of the base, like toothpaste from a tube.

In my experience, the worst DG solids are the Federal Trophy Bonded Sledgehammers. Based again on personal experiences, the Barnes monolithic solids and the TSX perform quite well. For 2014, I'm bringing Northfork solids in .416 Rigby and .470 and Northfork softs in .416 Rigby. Trophy bull elephant, hippo, croc and cape buff are on the menu....

The Hornady are called Dangerous Game Expanding, the caliber (.450 NE) is only used at close range, the rifle was regulated for them and they even put a picture of a buffalo on the box. I'm going to go out on a limb and say they thought someone might shoot a buffalo with one. Its like they thought it was a good idea. I won't be using them again.

The Bergers? They called them hunting bullets, I never. No mention was made of coyotes or prairiedogs, and the range was exactly a quarter mile. I reckon I used it exactly the way they promoted it. Never noticed a "do not use inside 1/2 mile" disclaimer either.

M70. Enjoyed your comments re Berger. "you can convince some people of really stupid ideas" quoting me.

Not necessarily, if you can follow sign. (The left hand bullet was recovered after skipping several times beyond evidence of a solid hit on the quarry which escaped.)

and on the other hand, me that doesnt' care for the way bergers perform, have been shooting them exclusively from a 308 for some years as an experiment. Out to almost 700 yards and as close as 50ish yards, I've yet to see a single failure. Too much meat damage at times yes, but never a failure.


OTOH nothing is ever guaranteed. Though my very best all around luck used in every concievable situation has been Barnes and I'll stick by them until I see otherwise.

I love threads like this! I have yet to see a Berger not exit on a broadside shot in the ribs. But I am a cup&core, std cartridge, rib-shooting kind of guy, and therefore I believe it happens even as I watch it happening. It absolutely fascinates me that some guys use varmint calibers and bullets on elk, with no rodeo, while others extoll the necessity of dangerous game cartridges and bullets for the same elk. I guess that is part of what makes America great. We can all have differing opinions, and we can ridicule the opinions of others at will.

HuntnShoot-

your comment makes me think of my previous bullet problems.... I think I just had the wrong caliber for the job. 7mag was going too fast at 30yards with the bullet I was using.

which is yet another reason for reloading, selling the 7mag, and paying a lot of attention to bullet choice (currently leaning heavy on Nosler & Barnes, Nosler will show you a picture of their performance at 3000fps, 2800fps, 2000fps and I feel that should help a new reloader choose which rifle & bullet for the job and to what distances the bullet will potentially preform the best)

Tim B-

I happen to agree with your assertion regarding the mismatch of bullet and cartridge. I hear a lot of stories of bullets popping like corn on impact when shot from high-velocity cartridges, and I have no reason to doubt them. I don't like a lot of recoil or noise though, so I don't shoot magnums at big game. I like cheap and accurate bullets, and cup&cores are certainly that. Too much of what I hear seems like marketing hype to me: 'Magnum! You need a magnum!' and its corollary 'The cheapest part of the hunt is the bullet, so let's change that!'

I wouldn't trust what is printed, as it is advertising, regardless of which bullet company prints it. The guys who make the bullets and the guys selling the bullets are not the same guys anymore, and they get paid for different things. Pick what you think you want and try it out. If it works, you may have a new favorite. That is what being a Loonie is all about.

I have no doubt that really tough controlled-expansion bullets kill game, and well. I just eschew that they have never been necessary for most killing.

This is a somewhat startling statement.

Tim - I would stick with the 7Mag, as it is a very versatile and mainstream cartridge (in 7mm to boot ) As far as shots at 30yrds, I'd say use a mono such as the Barnes as speed is king with those.

Other bullets seem to react oddly at 'high velocities' and close range.

Certainly not the wrong cartridge, as the headstamp has little to do with it. Look at the bullet you want to use and how fast you want to push it. Then focus on headstamp to achieve desired results.

Well written.

The magnum thing, IMHO, should be for those that either have no choice or desire no choice. IE drew a tag of a lifetime, flew 4000 miles, only have a few days to hunt, and so on. IE those that want to be able to take whatever shot offered rather than tag soup.

If not for those feelings myself some days.... I think most anything I desire coudl be done with a 243 Win and a 100 grain cup and core. Though I"d take teh 85tsx over that any day.

Bottom line is what you need to get done. And what you desire. If you let that solve teh answer to the question then you will have the right round and bullet. Rather than listening to the advertisements etc....

Never been much of an advertisement man myself. Tend to research and learn and then choose.

Some folks tend to not want that hassle and want the newest and bestest....

i'll still have a 284 bullet in my collection...just not a "magnum"

going with a 280 ackley to replace the 7mag


I think the problem that the average hunter (me included before trying to educate myself more) gets into and loses game is they fall into the bullet/ammo mfg's hands and don't educate themselves. I went 7mag for bear hunting, but wanted to kill something so I took it deer hunting used a different bullet than those for bear but now that I've learned more, a more expensive bullet (probably something tipped?) would have done better since the tip would have helped to encourage faster expansion.

I went with a winchester XP2 figured rated for deer good to go.

I have spent a lot of time and energy the last decade trying to unlearn much of what I learned in the 1st 3 decades of my life. 5 years of university psychology classes showed me that we live in a world of marketing, and we are all selling something. The main choice we have is what we buy. I buy that good enough is just as good as perfect- for just about everything.

HuntnShoot,

I've seen a pile of Bergers shot into big game, and have seen a few not exit--but I have yet to see one "blow up" and not penetrate inside an animal, even when they hit fairly heavy bone. Instead they've all done what's described by Berger: Slide in like a knitting needle for a couple of inches or so, then tear the hell out of things.

Mule Deer-

Yeah I read of your experience- in New Zealand? and it was partly your write-up that convinced me to try Bergers in my gun. I am completely sold and very satisfied so far. And I am getting fabulous accuracy. Have yet to shoot them really far, which was the point for me: to make my '06 into a legitimate 600 yd gun for big game. I could have bought a faster cartridge, but there were many reasons, sentimental and logical, why I got what I got. I still may get a fast 7, but I will likely want to shoot Bergers in that one too.

I like the fast killing and accurate shooting that many who use Berger tout, and I like that I don't have to spend a buck a bullet to shoot something I have supreme confidence in.

I can't recall seeing any bullet blow up on the surface of any animal ever, but like I said, I have no reason to doubt others' claims to their own experience, and I keep hearing it, generally on the internet.

Maybe it is in my nature to be contrary at times, and that is why I am a cup&core guy, in the middle of all of the premium hoopla. I am sure that I don't care whether there is an exit hole, or how the bullet looks like if I find it, other to be interested in what happened to it on it's journey because I loove those details . I am interested in quick kills and well-placed shots. That has been my MO.

Tim, I don't know why you had that experience with that deer and that bullet from that gun. Seems like it should have worked just fine. From what I understand, the xp3 are softer than the failsafe they replaced, and deer are thin-skinned in general, specifically across the the ribs. Those bullets should have opened up and done a lot of damage before exiting. Animals react differently to being shot, that is for sure. I like the 7 mag for hunting, and have seen only one bullet failure. A green box core-lokt broadside on a doe at 30 yds just zipped through. She acted like she got struck by lightning, and while we were all high-fiving, she stood up and trotted away. It was right at dusk, and she was over a fenceline and out of sight in what seemed like seconds. There was hair where she went down, but no blood anywhere. I watched the impact. She was hit a bit high, and a bit back of the shoulder. I have gathered that the bullet didn't expand, missed anything vital, but shocked the spine, stunning her. It certainly happens. I chock up that failure to hunter rather than bullet.

I think some people think too much. I'm in the camp of people ought to shoot whatever they want to as long as they're proficient with it. For me, app 250 head of big game are all the advertisement I need to tell me the 7mag is bad medicine. I'm not too concerned with those that are anti magnum.

Tim the answer to your "problem" isn't a new rifle in a different chambering....certainly not going from a 7RM to a 280AI which will solve......nothing..... .

5 shots into a deer with a 7 magnum tells me the bullets were not particularly well placed and a different cartridge will not help that situation at all.

If by saying the bullets were going "too fast" at 30 yards that they failed to penetrate,you might want to consider a different bullet..I have never seen a deer or anything else take a chest shot from a 7mm magnum and stay on its feet very long.

The only way to tell how a given bullet kills animals is to shoot animals with it.

I think 5 bullets through the lungs producing 5 holes that were the same size on entry and exit says the bullet passed right through and all 5 were within a pie-plate sized diameter

to me that says wrong bullet, going too fast to have a chance to expand

i have other reasons for selling the 7mag, but that is just an example of mine saying bullet and caliber choice are an important factor

I've never been a fan of the 7mm magnum. In the real world, there is little that a 7mm Remington magnum will do that a .30/06 won't do. And the .30/06 will do it with less blast and recoil. I don't own a 7mm magnum and never will.

This +10.
I don't like samples or examples of 1 to base conclusions on. Shooting factory ammo testifies to your level of experience. I been killing deer and antelope with handloaded 7mm Rem Mag since I was 15 years old. Lots of animals. Part of growing up and older is realizing mistakes and personal inadequacies of your OWN performance instead of blaming mechanical failure of objects or tools improperly used as excuses. 5 shots thru the lungs bullshit and well you think maybe the last one hit it in the head? I tell you what, TimB and HuntnShoot your full of crap. Magnum Man

I get that you don't care about an exit hole or what a bullet looks like if found. Just if the deer is dead.

But just consider this at least for a bit before dismissing that.

Lets say you shoot all your animals in the lungs like a lot of folks do. And what you find is quickly dead, no exit and just bullet fragments here and there IF that.

What do you suppose will happen when the next deer you see, a bit further off but in range, and only gives you a hard quartering shot. And its the biggest buck you've ever seen in your life.

Will you smack him hard in the front shoulder? Without thinking? And assume you'll get penetration plenty?

I've deliberately shot a couple of mulies in the shoulder blade, with the little .257" 115 gr Berger VLD hunting bullet.

Worked great. Zipped right through the shoulder. Destroyed the lungs. Instant drop. No exit. That was okay by me.

That said, next summer I'm taking Noslers to Africa.

Either Accubond, or Partition, depending.

Regards, Guy

Tim, this has peaked my curiosity more than a little bit. Can you please state what bullet exactly you used 5 times in the lungs of a deer. I am making no attempt to ruffle feathers here but I'm also trying to figure out how you had enough time to score 5 hits like that.

I can see some Nosler Partitions in your near future.

It has been a few years, but Winchester XP2's since winchester was the only factory ammo I could get to group out of the rifle.

the second shot would have been shoulder because it broke bone (still no expansion) first shot I'm guessing a bit behind the shoulder.


as to the shooting factory ammo testifies to level of experience... I don't think there is anything wrong with using factory ammo if you understand what that particular round requires for adequate expansion. I'm not trying to say it's the gun's fault at all.... I'm just saying I think a lot of people fall into the same problem that I did: wrong bullet caliber combo, handloading can resolve that but when you are limited to what is on the shelf and what the gun likes you look at the box and see what it is "rated" for and figure it must work.


I too can see some Noslers in my future

Gotta agree.

When I go to Africa, I will use a 300magnum of some sort stoked with 180gr Nosler Ballistic Tips. Just to piss the bullet snobs off.
Rost, in the scenario you painted above I would not hesitate to put a BT into the shoulder,especially on deer. I have done so on elk with a BT and it worked great and Zero tracking.

Pardon me for asking, but have you ever actually BEEN to Africa?

I admire you for being willing to spend a great deal of money on a safari just so you can prove that a bullet most experienced african hunters view as sub-optimal actually works on african game at magnum velocities. Bravo!

My suggestion is to invest in a good pair of boots--Courtney's or Russel PH's--because it would appear you will be doing a great deal of walking during follow ups.

When is your safari scheduled?

Please let us know how it works out for you.

I wouldnt wish a pair of Russel boots on an enemy... BTDT on a dall sheep hunt.

This doesn't happen.It's a myth.

Bullets may not expand on impact,or may be too tough for the job at hand;or some C&C bullets may shear at the cannelure and leave a caliber-sized exit(I have recovered bullets at least one where this happened)...and even a Nosler Partition will leave a small exit sometimes because it blows off the nose back to the partition before it exits, leaving little frontal area......but you can bet they are expanding all right.

In fact I bet if you ran those loads over a chronograph,a guy might find they are going about the same speed as a handloaded 280AI,which should be plenty enough for about anything.

Be assured that a bullet from a 7 mag has plenty of time to expand at 30 yards on about anything.

A 7 mag is completely adequate for about anything that walks or crawls on this continent....if we pick the right bullet for the job,which is not really hard to do.

The cartridge has been around since like 1962,and has killed about every major BG species world wide thousands of times over...and does it every year....we aren't exactly rediscovering the wheel here...If a guy is having difficulty killing things pronto with a 7mm magnum he should choose his bullets more carefully and stick them in the right place.Cartridges are rarely the culprit in failure to kill animals pronto.

You must live in an opposite universe...

When I was in my 20's several older hunters informed me that many cartridges pushed too fast for the bullets to expand. The .270 Winchester and 7mm Remington Magnum were the two most commonly suggested. I knew they were FOS but even then didn't feel like arguing with people who obviously didn't know anything about how bullets work.

Every time I hear a claim that certain bullets didn't expand because the entrance and exit holes were the same size, I ask if they field-dress their own game, or at least watch it being done. If they look puzzled then I know they're also FOS.

To fast to expand...

Like hitting the brakes too hard for the car to stop?

One of the worst bullet failures I personally sawe, and had to help rectify, was when a member from here went on the first annual 24hrcf African hunt in Zim, about 2006 IIRC. This hunter brought a beautiful Weatherby Lazermark in 378 Weatherby but my first iindication that he did not listen to a word of advice I had given him was his arrival in camp with a low grade Bushnell scope atop both the 378 and the 300 WBY that he unpacked at camp. He shot these well enough at the sight check station that he hunted with them, but early in the hunt he took a poke at a nice cape buffalo at dusk and hit it well, just right at the creas of the shoulder and about 1/3 the way up just as I had instructed. He and his PH tracked that buff, with VERY LITTLE blood, BTW, until dusk and decided wisely that looking for a very lively cape buffalo in thick stuff at dark thirty was a abad idea and returned to camp rather dejected. The next morning I joined the track with my hunter but had removed the 378 with plain Weatherby factory loads from the equation and handed my hunter my much customized 416 Rigby. It turned out that day to be a VERY good thing that I had a Wiesner extended or 'drop box' bottom metal added to the rifle as he used up all five of the cartridges in the rifle (pushing 400gr Barnes Monolithic Solids) and another PM got a 300gr solid from his 375H&H into the buff before he finally laid down and quit fighting. I got all of this on camera, with me running the Canon Shoulder mount camera and can provide the video of this rodeo if someone wants to see it and verify my story. The bullet from the 378 penetrated very little cape buffalo flesh. Barely nicking the onside or closest lung and not touching the offside lung at all. This bullet looked very much like a nickel and a penny that had been stacked together on a railroad track and smashed flat together. It was a freakin MESS. Total disaster of bullet megafailure.

So, the Cape buff is on the cover of my hunting in Zimbabwe DVD, obviously dead and recovered, but we did indeed have a catastrophic bullet failure event!

Monometals like a Barnes or well constructed solids for me, from now on. (I was already a disciple of these at that time, anyway)

WHY anyone would use cheap bullets, or even most cup and core bullets, on hard to hunt, expensive to hunt or hard to bring down animals ever again is a mystery.

MD,
I remember those comments back in the day also. They blamed, if I remember correctly, the Winchester Silvertips.

I can only claim one what I would call a bullet failure. I was shooting a Ruger tang safety M77 in 25/06 with a 117 gr Nosler partition moving at or around 3000 fps. Hunting in a Maine swamp around 1984, the buck came across the swamp at a pretty fast run, quartering at me. I was standing on a huge stump, swung on him, and hit him square in the shoulder. Upon impact of the bullet I saw through the scope just about the most amazing thing I've ever seen though a scope. It was raining pretty hard that day, when that bullet struck the bucks shoulder it looked like I shot a gallon jug of water at 50 yards. Every drop off water I think blew out of the bucks hide. Knowing after watching that hit I knew that buck was going to slide to stop in the swamp. To my surprise he made it to the edge of the swamp entering thick woods when I swung on him again as he was in high gear. Placing the next through the back leg as he disappeared at about 20 yards. Jumping down off the big stump & running to the spot where he entered the woods I saw my prize about 5 feet in the small fir trees.
During the gut job I found the first bullet broke his left front shoulder and blew what I could only describe as shrapnel through his lungs & heart. Nothing any larger than 6 shot with no exit of anything. Once I took off the skin you could see the complete destruction of the shoulder which ruined most of the meat from blood shot.

Some will say the bullet did not fail to kill that deer...and that maybe true...cause I'm sure the second shot did not kill him. So maybe we can again that the 25/06 and the 117gr Nosler Partition is not best suited for breaking large bones at close range.

Safariman...Your story is much better than mine...just say'n!

I had posted this image previously and believe it documents a complete bullet failure and one very marginal performance.

The 8mm S&B bullet jacket was retrieved from an Oryx I shot. The Oryx was healthy and showed no outward physical degradation. The jacket was recovered from inside the chest cavity, right behind the shoulder, but it was contained in a cyst. The Oryx had clearly recovered from what appeared to be a very well placed hit. The PH had no recollection of a hunt that would have yielded these results. (bullet in middle of photo)

The second bullet was a 250 gr. Barnes X shot at near point blank range and it clearly didn't expand as advertised. (bullet upper left)

If you hunt long enough and shoot enough animals you will see 'anomalies' as described in the original post. Pass throughs, non penetrations, explosions and non dead animals from 'perfect' hits.

As someone said, 'that's hunting'.

Just remembered some early nasty bullet failures from my early years of hunting in the early to mid 70's. I believed the then prevalent zebrapoop that one should hunt with the bullet and load that was most accurate in one's rifle. In the case of my hand me down 1917 Enfield 30/06 this was clearly 165gr Sieera Gamekings. I shot a half dozen or so small Califonia Blacktailed deer with that load at both short and medium ranges, say out to 250 yards or so. In every case the bullet completely disintegrated upon impact. Those 100lb deer were easy to kill so I recovered each one, but I messed up a lot of good venison and soon was looking for a better bullet. Moved on to the allegedly superior Speer hot core 165's and they did the same thing.

Hornaday Interlocks did much better on the next 8 or 10 deer (limit was two per year then) and Nosler Partitions better still until I came across an article by Ross Seyfreid about using a new bullet from Barnes called the X on feral donkey's and horses and other game in Australia and when I finally found some and used one on my first Elk in about 1985 or '86 I was and am hooked and loyal. 25+ years (can it be almost 30 years now?) of their use has only cemented my relationship with them. To the point that if a rifle or barrel will not shoot them reasonably well, the barrel or rifle go down the road rather than the bullet choice.

I recall just the opposite at the same point in my life. I had very little experience, then, with CF rifles and related stuff, but I knew with certainty that a 7 Mag bullet did not expand into the shape of "the deadliest mushroom in the woods" the moment it exited the barrel. I had a much better educated....make that 'he had better papers than I'...guy argue with absolute certainty that bullets expand the moment they leave the barrel, at least in the mags, perhaps their advantage.

Klik,

THAT is freakin HILARIOUS! Might be the best ill informed 'gun expert' knowledge / misinformation EVER. Wow.....

Right next to that is the guy who swears his 'special' magnum or quadruple radius shoulder super cartridge is "rising the moment it leaves the muzzle, and does not even begin to flatten out or slow down until it reaches 300 yards or so" Amazing stuff some folks can think up and believe.

Makes one realize the failure of our education systems to fail at the element of logical and constructive thought...or perhaps just basic observation.

rost495-

That is an easy question for me to answer, so I wanted to answer it. I wait for the right shot, which may be a neck shot, or I don't shoot. Period. I don't know if that means I wouldn't get a shot in your scenario. I am not a shoulder shooter. I guess I could be if I decided it was a good idea. Deer are soft, and the bullets I will take deer hunting should be tough enough to get to vitals. I wouldn't aim for the bone of the shoulder regardless of the bullet I had loaded.

I have learned that I make a hunting plan with compromises involved, from ammo to footwear. If I go out with the intention to shoot at a trophy buck, I will take the ammo that provides for the highest level of confidence for me, not the best exit hole.

I just don't get it. Partitions were the premium bullet when I began big game hunting, and I didn't ever have any of those in my gun when I actually shot anything. Cup and core did it all where I was from 30 years ago. I get the value of tough bullets. I have bonded bullets ready to put in the 'big' gun. I am not sold that they are needed to kill game. I am of the "internal destruction kills animals" school, and my experiences fit with this.

Obviously, many feel confident with tough premiums , and I wouldn't seek to take that away. It seems by and large like a sales pitch to me, though.

MagnumMan-

How am I full of

Magnum Man--

How am I full of crap?

Hunt and Shoot it seems odd that you would declare a premium like a Partition (really just a bread and butter bullet today)as a "sales gimmick"....in my world a sales gimmick is something that comes on the scene, is bought by suckers,and passes into oblvion in a short period of time....the Partition has been around since the early 1950's IIRC,and solved lots of problems for huters shooting high velocity cartridges,and I don't see many suckers using them.....pretty good track record for a "sales gimmick".

By your own admision you have never used one on an animal so I wonder how it is you can comment on how much damage a preium does, or does not do,to a game animal?

I never understood hunters who stand up and declare themselves as being solely neck shooters, or lung shooters,or surgical specialists with a rifle and ALWAYS shoot animals in just one place....it seems to ne that if they have much real experience as hunters, they are going to encounter a wide variety of shooting circumstances and conditions and its their job to be able to place a bullet where it will do the most good and that may be shoulder, neck or whatever it takes to do the job....and by this I don't mean ass end shots placed willy nilly, although hits to the pelvic area do have their place at times.


So, when someone comes on here and spouts about premiums being nothing more than sales gimmicks, do you really expect anyone to take you seriously?

I must not be expressing myself very clearly, BobinNH. I will try to do better. This has been a pretty squirreley thread that way, as I have been lumped into a few categories that I don't belong in. The failing is likely mine. Whether people take me seriously probably has more to do with whether my opinions align with theirs than anything else.

As far as partitions go, I think they are a great bullet, and certainly filled a serious need when they first were introduced. I think they fill the same need now. I believe they are the measuring stick for every expanding game bullet out there. I have nothing but respect for them, and for Nosler's magical way of getting such a complex design to shoot so well. I don't think of them as a tough design, because they open so readily and consistently. Many, many people I have known and hunted with have used them to good effect for decades. But here is the caveat: I have never happened to have been there to see an animal killed with one, and I've never shot anything while partitions were in my gun. I trust implicitly that they work great as a big and bigger game bullet at average distances, and a bit further. I just don't have any direct experience with this, and I've tried to make that clear.

I have heard stories of partitions blowing up on a shoulder. I have heard stories of many cup&cores not penetrating vitals, most often when shot at high velocity and/or close range. I have never had this experience; and I have no grounds to claim these stories false, other than they just don't match my experience. I've tried to make that clear.

I watched a failure of a cup&core bullet once, or maybe it was operator error, out of a 7RM at close range. Since the animal got away, I can't be sure what happened, other than I watched the bullet strike, and saw the dust kick up behind the doe. A sample of one means nothing in statistical terms. I understand this. It did sour me just a bit, and for a long time, to the 7 mag, especially when taken with other things I saw from that particular gun. This is not to say that it is a poor caliber or cartridge. I have known several hunters that have used it well for decades. My responses to the gentleman with the 7 mag that had some problems were simply an attempt to help him come to terms with his own experience. I don't shoot factory hunting ammo, and haven't for the last 20 years, and I don't shoot magnums at game. I did not agree with Tim_B's conclusions. I did tell him what I had heard and experienced. I thought I made that clear.

Finally, I am not here to attack anyone that picks a Barnes, A-Frame, North Fork, TBBC, etc. I have heard great things about them all. There are two things that I have witnessed in the years that I've paid attention to this sort of thing. First, premium bullets were once marketed to serious hunters doing serious hunting for serious game. Now they are marketed as do-alls for everyone. I can't disagree that they work, and work well. I disagree that they are necessary for most hunting in most situations for most people, including me. The second thing I have seen is the magnum craze that renewed itself a dozen years ago. I have seen magnums marketed as the best, greatest for all hunting and hunters, and a necessity for some hunting. I disagree. I think they are great for those that can and do shoot them well, particularly with one of the premium bullets. My view that so much of this is marketing hype stems from the fact that before there were expensive premium bullets, cup&cores killed animals year after year. Out of standard cartridges, these bullets work great, in my experience. I have heard, however, of some failures of tough bullets to properly expand at the lower velocities of standard cartridges. So the answer seems pretty simple to me. You want to shoot a mag, get a tough bullet. You want to shoot a softer, cheaper bullet, don't push them so fast that they can't get to the vitals.

There are thousands of caveats to these statements, such as when going after a trophy animal, or when you are unsure of the distances you'll be shooting, and other variables you don't want to have to account for. I have great confidence in softer bullets placed properly from standard cartridges, because that is what I have always done when I have been successful. This does not discount others' opinions or experiences. But if I am expected to believe that I HAVE to shoot a premium bullet to kill animals, or that they are the only bullets that work for bigger game, or other such nonsense, then I simply point to hundreds of years of history to claim otherwise. All bullets fail. The reasons why they do are as varied as the ways they are constructed and the animals they're shot at.

So many here are happy to jump on someone's ass about some little thing that seems off. I see few clarifying questions, and many insults. Not that this is directed at you, Bob. I have read your opinions and experiences for years, and have much respect for what you say and the ways you have said it. This is why I wanted to go to such great lengths to express myself, so that the concision that is present in fewer words from those like you can be found in my ramblings here.

Good day to you, Gentlemen.

Well I don't put much stock in stories. Experience is the only thing one can rely on. People on these forums will talk out of their asses on occasion.

I've shot partitions into the shoulders of more 400+ lb boar than I care to count and I've never had one not exit.

These were in 7-08 and 7 Rem Mag using 140 Partitions. More than a few with a 25-06 launching a 120 pill.

I had some early Ballistic Tips go tits up and fail to perform as they should.

Other than that, on hundreds of animals I've shot or seen killed by others, I've never seen a bullet failure that I can recall.

Some do perform better than others in a given set of circumstances. The hunter should understand this and pic the bullet that best fits his application.

Choosing a thin jacketed frangible bullet and sticking it in the shoulders of large animals, then complaining about how it performed is comical..

Between this and what you've posted elsewhere, a classic example of an understatement. I offer you a bag of Skittles as a peace offering...

Just shoot a 45-70 with a 500 grain cast bullet and quit worrying about bullet failure.

Now THAT is a great solution to bullet failure!

Terry

No bullet works 100% one hundred percent of the time.

Now that's a Drank statement if ever there was one. Bovine Scatoria for sure.

Maybe yours don't, but in 35 years and a LOT of dead animals, I have never had a cast 520 grain Govt. bullet out of a 45 caliber Sharps do anything but give complete pass through penetration in a straight line. I have never had one tumble or blow up or otherwise fail in any way.

I'm just saying that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Just out of curiosity, how many safaris have you been on and when did you complete the Big Five? Please tell us the extent of your african dangerous game experience so we can evaluate whether you were describing cow scat or cape buffalo scat?

Did that bullet work well on lion, leopard, cape buff, elephant and rhino? Please tell us whether you have brain shot elephant with it (frontal brain shot) or was it a heart-lung shot on your elephant? Did the bullet perform well on rhino? Did the lion drop at the shot or was there a follow up involved?

Sharpsguy sure flattened a Zebra (among other things) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Fqs543qxTHE

While I have been on three safaris, I have never hunted dangerous game. A matter of money. However, a friend of mine used that cast round nosed bullet to shoot a cape buffalo with his 458 Win Mag. I loaded the ammo, and at 1350 fps velocity, the bullet blew through both shoulders and exited from 50 yards.

I have shot through and through both black and blue wildebeast, and shot through one black wildebeast from into his left rear ham to out his brisket. Lengthwise through about six feet of wildebeast. I have shot through and through two zebra and not recovered a bullet.

The rifle and load shoots all the way through elk and bison. The last bison I took weighed over 2000 pounds and the bullet exited through the off side shoulder. The animal dropped at the shot. The next day an acquaintance of mine shot another bison similar to mine with a 505 Gibbs, and did NOT get complete pass through penetration. That bison went over 400 yards before going down. If I can shoot through bison--and I have done it with six of them--I hardly see how it will be a problem to shoot through a lion. FWIW, my PH wanted me to go for cape buffalo and elephant with the Sharps, but I simply couldn't afford it. I am trying to put together a trip for cape buffalo right now, and I don't think I will be under gunned with the Sharps and cast lead bullets. After all, Selous used cast bullets to good effect.

Winchestermodel70, I see you're trying to equate a certain amount of experience with being an expert. I have no idea what your level of experience is, but I do know that after guiding loads of hunters over the past 10-11 years, many of the so called expert and experienced hunters we've had in camp are actually idiots who actually know about 25% of what they're talking about.

Mule Deer earlier in this thread spoke of on processing the carcas of checking to see what damage or story can be told. Just looking at a bullet may not tell the story.


The two 375 Hornady solids were recovered from a kudu. The first shot was from the rear. It did not exit and I didn't see that as an issue as it had to travel a bit. The second shot was when he tried to regain his footing when I approached and it went into the neck area in front of the shoulder. I was surprised it did not exit and had asked the skinner if he could find the bullets. He gave me these two bullets and it confused me why one on the left bent.
I asked the skinner where he found them and he places them in my hand like this

Sometimes strange things happen

Now that is a group to smile about!

I'm frankly surprised that the 375 WITH SOLIDS didn't shoot all the way through the kudu, regardless of the angle.

[quote][/quote]

1. Why would anyone want to use a cast bullet out of a .458 Win @ 1,350 fps on Cape Buffalo?

2. It is spelled Wildebeest, not Wildebeast.

3. I don't think you understand lion hunting. When lion hunting, on the first shot, assuming Panthera Leo is taken by surprise, you want a frangible bullet like a Partition at moderate velocity (<2,600 fps) to impart hydrostatic shock and shut down his nervous system. Your Sharps may, however, work well on a frontal shot in the event of a charge. Dunno. Try it and let us know.

4. Yes, you are correct. the .505 Gibbs is a weak cartridge suitable only for the smaller antelope. God forbid that anyone try to hunt dangerous game with one. Feel better now?

I don't claim to be an "expert". But I have done more than kill a wildebeest and a zebra over the course of multiple safaris.

Well over 150 head of african game, encompassing a myriad of different species. The Big Five Award. African Hunter of the Year Award. A Boy Scout Merit badge when I was 14. You?

1. Because it will shoot all the way through him, collapse his lungs, and kill him graveyard dead. Actually, my friend was interested in verifying the performance of the bullet. He had 2 Noslers down in the magazine, and didn't need them. The PH didn't need his 460 Weatherby, either.

2. Spell it anyway you want.



3. The lion won't go anywhere with a 500 grain cast bullet through his shoulders. Trust me.

4. BS.

Winchester Model 70--Tell you what. If you want to spend some of that money that you apparently have plenty of to further your shooting education, do this. Spring for a DG Safari for both of us, and you can see the Sharps work with heavy cast bullets on the big boys. I'm in for my plane fare, you pick up the rest. Think about it.

I'm not jumping into this ruckus, but was the bullet in the 505 a soft or a solid?

It was a soft.

If you are a tall, slender pretty woman with long, honey color hair and green eyes, not much over the age of 25, we may be able to work something out. If not, I'm afraid you'll have to pay for your own DG safari....

Just my luck--

Your post reminds me of something Jim Carmichael told me: "Most gun writers do their shooting with a typewriter." I got the idea from Winchestermodel70's post that he was trying to intimidate rather than get information.

blaser_guy,

Those two bullets remind me of a photo of a 300 grain solid from a .375 protruding from the offside chest of an elephant. Only the back half of the bullet was still in the skin. Strange things happen.

Betting it was a 525 gr Woodleigh Jorge, they are a stub of a bullet IMHO and are really stressed when impacting heavy game especially if loaded above their velocity windows.

I ran the 600's to 2400 fps in my Gibbs to check crossbolts and stock bedding relations, everyone got along just fine, I then backed the next batch of 600 gr loads down to a more sedate and civil 2150 fps.

Gunner

I understand but after looking at the path I could understand. It went from straight behind all the way through and up high in chest between shoulders and stopped in the neck in front of the shoulders. That is quite a bit of distance in a large animal

THanks, I was wondering, a solid would probably still be going!

If you shoot enough game the saying stuff happens comes into play eventually

Yessir, happily skipping along the landscape, specially if it would have been the 600 gr Woodleigh solids from my 505.

Gunner

I figured as much. Now I'm "involved" . Model 70: While my experience with Cape Buffalo (two) is nowhere near yours, I'm here to tell you Sharpsguy is the real deal. As one of the initial naysayers here about the BP cartridge Pumkin' Rollers, I saw them work from first hand experience thanks to him. Besides being able to routinely hit the 500 yard ram target with aplomb, I personally watched my Bison (yes I know a bison while weighing more, ain't no Cape) go ass over tea-kettle with one shot from my 45-110 Sharps at 98 yards. I purposely aimed for the shoulder and broke it;s spine with no exit. I gave it an insurance shot through the bottom of the brisket and it came out the top of his back.

There is no doubt in my mind one of these rifles will handily take a Cape Buffalo. You do however raise a valid point with the 458WM's lack of penetration at 1850 fps, but I'm pretty sure that was with softs and not solids. My issue with these rifles is not so much the cartridge, but the fact they are single shot rifles which in my opinion is not something I would use on a dangerous game. With the pachyderms, I would also have big concerns with hard cast lead bullets as well with brain shots on elephants. Don't sell them short, they are true killing machines. jorge

I would like to make a couple of points about the penetration of the Sharps with 500 grain cast bullets. This is from personal observation and direct personal experience.

The first bison I took was with a 511 grain round nosed paper patched bullet at 1350 fps out of one of my 45-110s. It was a 4 1/2 year old bull weighing about 1750 pounds. The distance was 186 yards, and the ranch manager--who had never seen a Sharps work--wanted me to shoot the animal in the neck. I didn't want to use that shot and deferred. I finally agreed to shoot it in the ear after a bit of discussion. At the shot, the animal apparently turned its head slightly, and I hit it in the horizontal aspect of its right horn. The bison simply collapsed, straight down, in a cloud of dust. As in DEAD.

Now comes the illuminating part of the story. The bullet traveled straight down the horn boss, through the skull into the brain cavity scrambling the brain and almost made it through the skull on the other side. That bullet gave over twenty inches of penetration, NINE INCHES OF IT THROUGH SOLID BONE. I filed that into my memory bank and think about it every time I look at that European mount on the wall of my reloading room.

A couple of years after that, I was visiting a natural history museum, and one of the exhibits was an elephant skull. The skull was sitting on the floor with a single rope barrier around it, and you could actually get close enough to the skull to touch it. I didn't touch it, but I got really close and looked it over REAL well. There was no place on that skull where the bone was over four inches thick over the brain. From the side, the bone could not have been two inches thick covering the brain.

If the Sharps will shoot through nine inches of solid bone with cast lead bullets, I really don't see where a brain shot on an elephant would be beyond its capabilities.

But here is the final kicker. On my last trip to the Eastern Cape, my PH took me through the elephant park at Addo. Yes, I saw elephants, and yes, I was in the bakkie. No big deal, a tourist thing. BUT there are also several herds of Cape Buffalo in the park, and two healthy prides of lions which were making a pretty good living off of the buffalo. I was able to examine the skeletons of two buffalo bulls, one approaching 40 inches, that had been taken by lions. My PH pointed out the overlapping ribs and the fact that they are a barrier to penetration. The fact is, those overlapping ribs are barely 1/4 inch thick, and the Sharps will blow right through that amount of bone. Likewise the shoulder blade.

So while I have never shot a Cape Buffalo, I have had a good close up look at the skeletons of two of them. I also sat in the bakkie about nine yards from a really good buffalo bull as he grazed along side the vehicle path. This gave me about five minutes to study him and take a good look at options for shot placement. Having said all of this, there is no doubt in my mind that the Sharps with the right cast lead bullets will work on dangerous game.

Granted, it is a single shot, but it is a single shot with an ejector, and I can run it faster than most guys can run a bolt gun. I'm not saying that everyone with a single shot is that fast, but I am comfortable with mine.

One last thing. Selous' favorite rifle was a 450 Rigby No.2 shooting black powder. I have his load data, and can easily duplicate his bullets and velocities in my 45-110 Sharps if I feel I need to. He had one load for elephant and hippo, and another for everything else. I would say that cast lead bullets have a proven history, and I KNOW they work. And I DO have a Cape Buffalo on my bucket list.

I have no doubt it can and you can sir..

I have always thought the 45 caliber diameter was the magic that made it work. It seems to be on the right side of right

I think you are right. I have given it a lot of thought. I know that my 50-90 and my 50-70 do not kill as well or penetrate nearly as well as my 45 caliber rifles. There is something working relative to frontal area and sectional density that gives the 45 caliber an edge in killing and penetration with the right bullets.

sharpsguy,

I know two people who've used hard-cast bullets on Cape buffalo. One was my hunting partner in Botswana's Okavanago in 2002, who used a lever-action Winchester Model 1886 in .50-110. I don't recall the bullet weight (could look it up in my safari notes but don't feel like it right now) but recall it was around 550 grains, loaded with black powder to 1300+ fps. He shot the bull several times, though it was pretty much anchored by the first couple of shots. One bullet that struck behind the shoulder exited, and the other in the shoulder did not, though it made it to the far side. The other shots were finishers after the buffalo was down, and were angled rather than broadside. Like the bullet in the shoulder, they were recovered from under the hide on the far side.

The other friend went to Zimbabwe a couple of years later, and used a Marlin .45-70 loaded with heavy hard-cast bullets and smokeless powder. Again I can't remember the exact velocity, but it was under 2000 fps. He killed a bull with no difficulty with a chest shot, but the bullet exited and wounded a cow in the brush behind the bull. As a result he had to kill the cow too and encountered no problems with it either.

Somehow the subject of cast bullets at moderate velocities on Cape buffalo drives many hunters who've never even seen them used kinda batty. But examples from the real world indicate they will work quite well if the hunter shoots well. I have no doubts you would do quite well, given the opportunity. Here's to hoping you get the opportunity someday!

Mule Deer--Thanks for the insightful comments. As far as the bucket list, thanks again for the encouragement. Not a day goes by that I don't think about it.

Sharpsguy what cast bullet would you recommend for my Ruger No 1 in 450 NE?
I'm looking for a source to buy them already cast. I poured up enough lynotype pigs in a print shop after high school as a proof boy that I have no desire to do that again

Sharpsguy

I am back on my feet and dreaming again of a Sharps in my hands. Those who doubt you have never spoken to you. I have had excellent penetration with hard cast in 500 grain bullets. At 1250 ft/sec muzzle velocity I shot a bull moose left hip through paunch liver lungs and right humerus exiting and not recovered. Dead moose no significant bloodshot meat. I was hunting to feed my family and took that shot because it was the one presented to me.

I do not doubt the veracity of your words and my experience mirrors yours although with N.A big game. Head of femur/pelvis through viscera ribs humerus and all the muscle resulted in 7'-8'
of penetration. Femoral,hepatic and brachial arteries were destroyed as were spleen and liver. No 2nd finishing shot was needed. I wish I was able to go with and watch that Sharps do what you do so well with it.

Randy

The very best bullet for that is the Lyman 457121, one of if not THE favorite 45 caliber bullets I use. That is the bullet I used to take the zebra in the video.It is a flatnose bullet weighing 475 to 480 grains, depending on the particular mold. Unfortunately, I don't know of anyone that casts it commercially. A very close second is the 500 grain flatnosed bullet sold by Jerry Dean at Powder Inc. It has a slightly larger meplat than the Lyman bullet, and I shot one all the way through both shoulders of a 2000 pound bison a couple of years ago using a 45-70. Velocity was 1250 fps. I watched a friend of mine knock a 5x5 bull elk down and dead with his Shiloh 45-110 from a bit over 100 yards last year with the bullet from Jerry Dean. That velocity was 1330 fps and the bullet was a complete pass through both shoulders.

You can contact Jerry Dean at Powder Inc and get that bullet. It ain't a pretty bullet, but he sells them lubed and sized quite reasonably and it flat out works. I shoot quite a few of them myself.

You could probably add thousands of early settlers too.

Not really, because I didn't know them!

medicman--Was the 500 grain bullet you used on the moose the big round nosed Government bullet? In penetration tests that bullet and my 511 grain round nosed paper patched bullet were the best for penetration of the bullets we have tested. There was little if any difference between them and they seemed to give 10 to 15 percent better penetration than the flatnosed bullets.

In either case, in my experience a properly placed 500 grain bullet almost always results in a DRT or an animal on the ground within 50 yards.

I'm down to about 2"s in a 55 gal oil drum, my Sharps Rifle bullet test will begin soon.

Gunner

Yer gonna have to put that drum on end if you want to catch one of them bullets.

Ed

LOL, yeah, that's the way I do it, full of water and banded down tight.

Have caught:

458 Win Mag 500 gr Woodleigh
505 Gibbs 600 gr Woodleigh
500 Nitro 570 gr TSX
577 Nitro 750 gr TSX

All bullets caught left a nice dognot in the bottom of the drum, I'm gonna chit bricks if the 520 gr Gov bullet from my Shiloh 45-70 punches clean through.

Gunner

You'll be ready for Africa.

You using the steel drums or the plastic ones? I have wondered if the plastic ones would flex, therefore slow the bullet down and reduce total penetration.

Ed

Using steel drums, the 'hydraulic effect' of the 577 Nitro is mind numbing, at the shot [25 yards] the small threaded cap pulled it's threads and went dancing by on my right, the main banded lid blew, drum split at the seam and the bottom had a dognot in it you could nearly put your fist in.

Can't wait to see what the 520 gr GB in the 45-70 will do when powered to 1200 fps by Holy Black.

Gunner

Nuff said...

I DO want to see that beast one of these days.

Ed

Fixt, and sure. LOL

Gunner

you should see his 8 bore







video of gunner loading it and bea175 shooting it in Tennessee

video of gunner and his 577 versus a huge chunk of sandstone

Back the Original thread. I have see a few true bullet failures; the most spectacular of which was a 130 grain Bronze point out of a 270 on a calf elk. It knocked her down but she bounced right back up. The total wound depth didn't exceed 2 1/2" This has kinda jaded me against the 270 ever since and this happened in 1975.

I have seen several 270 and 258 caliber X bullets and Failsafes fail to expand at all. One punched clear through two animals. Never had a problem with the 30 caliber mono bullets.

I have also seen a Federal low-shok fail to penetrate the rib cage on a cow elk from a 308. If you are around enough killing, you are bound to see some weird stuff. As a result, I never used the Federal stuff again nor a Remington Bronze point (good luck finding one)


As for Bergers, I have seen a LOT of them Exit. If you are shooting 7 and 30 caliber heavy bullets, they will almost always exit on deer in my experience. They still kill well but a 180 out of a 7mm is pretty hard to keep in the chest cavity of a deer. A 210 is nearly impossible.

this is eviltwin with i believe gunners 500 nitro, dont think its the 577 though he did shoot it too...

This is an interesting statistic as in the "smokeless world" flat nosed solids out-penetrate round nose bullets by a considerabel margin.

jorge--I have wondered about this too. I suspect that at the higher smokeless velocities the RN solids tend to veer from a straight line and yaw and ultimately tumble, whereas the FN bullets do not. At the lower black powder velocities the RN gives straight line penetration without yaw, hence more penetration. Notice I said SUSPECT, as I have no proof of this, only that the RN bullet is the penetration champ in my Sharps, and always gives straight line penetration in an animal.

Well it is certainly a fascinating subject.

I have always wondered what effect rifle twist, bullet weight, and bullet speed in these cast bullets impart on the performance. On regular soft point ammo the mushroom can affect performance of penetration at the various speeds but the cast bullet wouldn't add that factor.

I'll tell you this much for sure, given proper bullet construction, the more velocity the more penetration, then again how much is enough?

Hey Rattler, I should get that caster to make me up some 'Hard Balls' for that 8 Bore and seat em over 400 gr of FFG and see how they penetrate.

Wouldn't think expansion would be an issue with the 8 Bore, hell, it's .825" when it gets there.

Gunner

Last fall, my neighbor shot a little spike Whitetail with his .308Win at about 40 yds. He was using 150gr Rem Core Lokts, just as he has done for the last forty years. The deer stopped, perfectly broadside and Jim, in a ground blind, shot him halfway up the body, just behind the shoulder. At the shot the deer instantly dropped, then jumped back up and disappeared into the thick brush. Thirty minutes of tracking led to the deer, now dead.

So, realistically, the bullet didn't fail in its intended purpose. Technically, it DID fail since it blew up on a rib going in. The jacket was trapped just inside the ribcage and a small fragment weighing roughly 40gr was found along the bullets track just behind the left ear.
That bullet had entered in a path that should have gone straight through, across the thinnest part of the chest cavity, and exited through the ribs on the left side.
Instead, it turned, jellied one lung, missed the heart and major arteries, and traveled up through the neck along the spine, exiting about two inches behind the left ear.
Strange things happen!

Ed

I agree but straight line penetration is the key when shooting at game. The bullet encounters various obstacles along the way. I have shot a 7STW in game with a 140 SAF that showed a difference in straight line penatraion over 160 grain bullets. It was a faster load but the twist I am sure played a role as well. The little SAF also has a different frontal area on expansion as opposed the the fail safe bullet I'm comparing to.
I will never have the time or inclination to see what variable has the biggest role, twist, bullet weight, or speed. For sure these variable must balance with each other but twist has always seemed to be the most important. Straight line performance based on how fast or slow a bullet is pushed at a given weight in a particular twist barrel interests me

I think you're onto something there. I believe Muledeer has done some writing on "magic" velocites, and there have been some other writers and ballisticians trying to understand it as well.

Ed

Lots of good info here on the subject, especially with the larger calibers. B&M

I don't remember the whole article but Ross Seyfreid years ago did a test on various calibers on brush busting. Before we had bean field or sendero rifles you use to hear allot about if a bullet could bust brush. If I remember right he piled up a brush screen and fired through it and the 338 came out on top in his un-scientific test. In a way when we fire a bullet into a game animal we are working through paunch and bone which is sort of like this experiment.
Can a bullet be pushed too fast in a particular twist to affect straight line penatraion in a hunting cartridge?

Gyroscopic effects; target composition; bullet mass, velocity, and shape all have an effect on terminal ballistics.

The trick would be figuring out the physics and coming up with a formula that would encompass all variables.

I'm not sure I even want someone to do that. Tinkering is too much fun.

Ed
Besides, just using a 16" naval gun would fulfill the requirements of long-range precision, straight-line travel through obstructing brush, and terminal performance.

Sharpsguy

It was the Lyman 457125 round nose. The nose is a "flatter" round than I thought it would be. I lent the mould to a friend who dropped it in the river. I use the Lee 500gr flat point now.
Randy

lol that is one neat rifle.....definitely put together by someone that understood hunting rifles but aint no way your getting me to touch off that beast with 400 grains of powder...

Some friend. PM me your mailing address and I will send you another 457125. I have an extra one I can spare around here somewhere.

I have seen a 38 special 158 grainer hit the head just in front of the temple, travel around the skull and exit the skin on the other side looking like it was a brain shot pass-through. Guy sure had a headache though!

Have see 22 LR bullets ricochet around inside a skull and come out nearly the same place they went in. 22s are almost always fatal on headshots- on people!

Hope Gunner doesn't mind me posting...



It...ummm...made my teeth hurt It was rather astonishing.

I've understood that John Linebaugh did a bunch of testing, and found that a heavy hardcast at ~1300 fps gave the most penetration - out of anything, revolvers or rifles. Even a big solid from a Nitro Express didn't match them.

When I did some penetration testing with my .454 and several rifles, including G.s.Custom 265 grain .375 at 3,050 feet per second, none of the rifles matched the .454 with a 260 grain "solid" at 1,925 feet per second. The 265 beat the Nosler 300 grain Partition. The 300 grain Partition beat the 260 grain Partition.

In the case of the 375, the 300 grain Partition has never failed me. DRT is the norm. If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.

Wayne

No way. Him and that other guy who's big on levr actions cooked the books to do that. Over on Accurate Reloading there's a thread going on several hundred pages now where Michael458 has done extensive research on this stuff and monometal flat nosed solids are by far the penetration kings. In the 45 cal bores, the 460 Weatherby beat them all, but again how much is too much and at the price of huge recoil?

jorge--I don't think that is entirely correct. It is true that the current generation of monometal solids are the penetration kings, but Michael 458 had(has) a big hand in their development. This has occurred only recently, within the last year or so. Back when cup and core bullets were the standard, the big cast bullets often out penetrated them. Michael 458 ran extensive tests for years chasing the monometal solid, and after several years of effort has finally succeeded in making the bullet he was looking for. He is just now bringing the monometal bullets to market.

As a point of interest, I sent four different bullets to Michael 458 to be tested, all loaded with black powder, and one was the round nosed 500 grain Govt. bullet. Another was my round nosed 511 grain paper patched bullet. These two bullets gave 37 and 39 inches of penetration in his test medium, which at that time ranked two and three for penetration of the dozens of load and bullet combinations he tested. This stayed up on thread on AR for nearly two years. All the while Michael continued to improve the performance of the monometal solid. Then my computer crashed, and when I got my new (present) computer and pulled up that test thread on AR, I discovered that the books HAD been cooked, only by Michael 458. He had downgraded the penetration data of the Sharps by a bit. Not a lot, but enough to give some of his monometal bullets the lead. Frankly, it pissed me off, but what can I say or do? And, frankly, what does it really matter? The 45-70 properly loaded still gives penetration into next week.

I'm NOT saying that the 45 caliber Sharps is the all time penetration king, but I am saying it is a long way from being a weak sister, and until the advent of the new monometal solids would out penetrate most hunting bullets and calibers in common use.

I am in complete agreement with your last paragraph Bill and saddened that Michael would do that. That said, in my mind and simple logic tells me a 500 grain monometal, the faster you drive it the more it will penetrate. It works in military applications and there the data is incontrovertible. It wasn't Linebaugh but that other guy with the 45/70 and his hardcast bullets that I know cooked the books. There's just not way a 45/70 can run with the NE cartridges and certainly not a Lott or Weatherby when it comes to penetration and shock. Believe me, hit a buffalo with a 500gr pill at 2300 plus and one at 1200 or so and the difference is noticeable.

jorgeI,

Your last post reminds me of hunting with two different calibers on the same game. I am hesitant to mention the game but I certainly saw the .44 Magnum occasionally wound an animal and the .454 never did. Higher velocity certainly played a role in my opinion.

I dont' doubt that one bit Ringman but the key is matching the bullet to the velocities. If you rake one of those 500grain lead bullets at BP velocities, they will penetrate to Kingdom Come. Take that same bullet and up the velocity by 1000 fps or more and they will fail miserably. Then again take a 500grain monometal and push it fast and it will leave that lead slug in the dust. The question is, just how much penetration does one need? Personally I have no issues with someone taking a buffalo, lion etc with one of those huge lead pills, hell, I've done it myself on a bison, but a head shot on an elephant, I'll take a flat nosed mono or a conventional steel copper clad solid any day.

So boring though Wayne! Taking a well proven cartridge with 100 years of use, coupling it with arguably the best soft-nose bullet ever built for that cartridge... And you say it never failed you? Dang... Use what works? Awesome! What a concept!

Regards, Guy

jorge--there is a lot of this that defies logic. Like my 45-70 with a 480 grain FN at 1242 fps going through and through both shoulders of a 2000 pound bison, and a week later a 505 Gibbs with a factory soft not giving a pass through on an identical animal on the same hit.

I can't speak for cooked books at a Linebaugh seminar, but I can tell you this. I have two friends, one from San Antonio and another from Boerne, TX. They attended a Linebaugh seminar where Randy Garret of Garret cartridges has arranged a penetration test with wet newspaper as a test medium. The newspaper was contained in a trough made of 2x10 lumber, 72 inches long. A 375 H&H went 38 inches into the medium, a 458 Win shooting 450 TSXs went 46 inches, and a Marlin 45-70 loaded with Garret's Sledgehammer solids at 1550 fps went 55 inches into the wet newspaper. This result was posted on the Garret website. I asked my friend from San Antonio what they thought about the Garret 45-70 being the penetration champion of the event. He THEN SAID THIS: " It wasn't the penetration champion." I asked what was, and he said that his 45-70 Sharps shooting the 520 grain round nosed bullet driven by black powder shot all the way through the 72 inch wooden trough of wet newspaper and came out the other end. The bullet was hanging by its base band and was recovered. My other friend from Boerne shot his 45-70 CPA Stevens 44 1/2 loaded with the same bullet and powder and it went 71 inches up in the wet newspaper."But the penetration champ was John Wooters shooting a 416 Rigby with a monometal solid. That bullet exited the box and was not recovered."

It is of interest that nothing was said about either of the 45-70s shooting the round nosed Govt. bullet driven by black powder, or about John Wooters' 416 Rigby. Both of my friends tell exactly the same story in separate conversations, and I have no reason to doubt either one of them.

Penetration is about bullet construction, nose shape, and weight coupled with the right velocity for a specific bullet. The various variables interact and the results are what they are. I will say this: If it is flesh and blood, it doesn't want to stand in front of a big bore handgun shooting cast bullets, or in front of a 45 caliber rifle shooting the same.

Bill: The TSX is not a solid it's a soft and I would fully expect a hard cast to penetrate more. ANd especially with the 505 Gibbs, that was a soft and a Woodleigh at that which are not known for holding together much above 2100 fps.

If you were to take the 450 TSX and slow it down to 1550 THEN tried the penetration test, I can guarantee you penetration would be significantly less had the same bullet traveling at 2200 plus.
Garrett, that's the guy who did the cooking and he did it by comparing one of his solids with a SOFT pointed cup and core. Apples and oranges. I will gurantee you that a 458 cal 500gr Flat nosed monometal solid like the CEB or the Woodleigh Hydro bullet at 2100-2600 fps will leave any lead bullet hardcast or otherwise in the dust when it comes to penetration. Is it needed? well that begs the question, but a friend of mine who recently returned from an elephant hunt shot one in the head with a 480gr CEB solid from his Wilkes 450NE 3 1/4" double and the bullet exited at the base of the tail and kept going. There's a reason that 400gr 416 solid penetrated as far as it did, superb sectional density AND velocity. Again the key is one must match the correct bullet construction with velocity and that is why nothing comes close to a 460 Weatherby monometal at 2600 plus. It's not needed but there it is.

Edited to add: Next time you are up at Gunner's place and if he has the equipment to do it, pick your hardest hard cast out of a 45/70 and do a comparison penetration test with one of his 458s (or even that Gibbs) using a CEB solid. Then compare.

THis is why the Woodleigh SOFT did not penetrate like your hard cast but I guarantee you it did a lot more damage inside and that is why outside of elephant, rhino and hippo on dry land, hardly anybody uses solids anymore:



And a solid when it comes to penetration and good velocity:


And why it's an apples and oranges comparing a soft (which is what a TSX is) to a hard cast:

Frontal area also plays a roll. Less surface area, less resistance.

LOL, I dont mind ya posting pics of those ole hammers Tex, when it cools off a bit this evening I'm gonna go out to the shop and load a belt of 577's.

Gunner

At the hog hunt a good sized pig was harvested with the .500 Nitro, and a flat nosed mono. Not sure of the bullet maker. The bullet obviously went through the hog and then through about five feet of soft dirt, and was recovered. Except for rifling marks, it looked new.

That was my 500 Nitro Tex, NHK9 [George] done the shooting, it fires a 570 gr Barnes banded solid at 2168 fps with 103 gr H-4350.

Gunner

Got that belt of 577's loaded too, five 750 gr banded solids and five 750 gr TSX softs.

Gunner

LOL, IIRC Rockchucker said that bullet went through about a foot and a half of pig and 6' of hardpack Tennessee clay.

Gunner

sounds bout right....was a good sized pig.....and it was somewhere between 5 and 6 feet worth of dirt though its kinda hard to tell from the pics i took.....shoulda had one of the guys lay next to the ditch

LOL

Gunner

And that wasn't even the "big" gun...

Gunner, I've shot a .500 NE, 570's at 2,150 fps. How much worse is the .577?

DF

577's not that bad, just a huge shove, the 505 Gibbs with the 600 gr Woodies at 2425 fps is very unpleasant, it's just plain rude.

Gunner

So, the .577 is more like the .500 NE, a big push, and the .505 Gibbs is the nasty ___ of the group...

I think remember you saying that one of the most ill tempered, nasty rifles you ever shot was a rather lightweight .378 Wby. It was worse than the .505?

DF

The 378 weighed around 8.5 lbs all up in the syn stock, it was the rudest of the rude, 300 gr NPT's at 3K with a big charge of IMR-4350 plain sucked from the bench.

The 505G is ok now, ran it hard in the beginning to check stock bedding in relation to the cross-bolts, didn't wanna crack the walnut. , all is good, it is very well behaved with the 600's running 2150 fps.

Gunner

That's not much up from the .500 NE pushing 570's at 2,150 fps.

DF

True, weights are similar at around 10 lbs for each of my rifles, the Gibbs is a bit more violent I believe due to the 140 gr powder charge.

Gunner

I wouldn't shoot something that kicked that hard for money. I don't need a detached retina or a recoil headache. A recoil headache is actually a mild concussion. I have had my share of recoil headaches in the past and don't need another one. You boys are tougher and meaner than I am.

Not tougher, just more stupider.

Gunner

Penetration, however slight....

It's a shame that we didn't take the time to dig for the cast bullet that Gunner used when he shot his hog with his 45-70. Through and through, hole in the ground, and we never gave it a thought. Next time.

I didn't get to shoot the .500, but I did the .577. Damn thing made my teeth hurt...

Mind you, I have a .375 and a 7.5 lb .45-90, so I don't think I'm that recoil shy.

I shot Gunner's 500. It was easily handled. The 577 put me in position for an anti-aircraft heading for my next shpt. [bleep] YOUSE in the 505 Gibbs. Shot 3 rounds from one when I wuz quite young and MUCH stupider than I am now and I ain't a Nobel Prize contestant now!!!!!!!! If I was being charged by a pissed off Tyrannosaurus Rex I'd give serious consideration to being ate rather than shot a [bleep]' Gibbs at him

That would have been a fun and informative mining excavation.

Gunner

Settle in tight and drill em ET, ole Gibbs wont bite near as hard as T-Rex.

Gunner

Sounds to me like they "way over-penetrate"

I got a letter from Oregon stating just that.

Gunner

There'd be scattered .505 hulls all around before T. Rex took a bite out of my ___...!

I'd worry about the details later...

DF

And 'T' wont take just 'a bite' outta yo azz.

Gunner

'Fraid you right, Gunner

Ole T's one big, bad lizard.

DF

Sharpsguy.........

What you say above is absolutely NOT TRUE, not in the least, not a word, I have NEVER EVER NOT ONCE CHANGED OR COOKED THE BOOKS as you say...... I am sorry, I do not wish to offend, but this is 100% Incorrect on all counts. What we did with your loads and data is still right there on the Terminal Performance thread unchanged, unedited and as it was when it was posted. Anyone anywhere can go check for themselves. I have no idea what pages that might be on, but it is reported correctly and as it was.... END OF STORY....... I do not recall depth of penetration and other details, as that was a couple of years ago, but I do have that data in the files. WHile I am currently in Pretoria South Africa and just after a hunt, I have that data with me, and here it is as recorded in Feb Of 2010.......

2/3/10 470 Cast FN 1270/1235 1241/1200 22 yds 23" & 24" 474/467 Brown 1885-SharpsBill Black Powder Load
#1 Dead Straght-#2 Lost stability at very end Sideways
2/3/10 511 Paper 1190/1172 1166/1147 22 yds 24" & 34" 509/511 Brown 1885-Sharps-Bill Black Powder Load
#1 Bullet 24" expanded!
2/3/10 520 Cast RN 1252/1212/ 1222/1187 22 yds 18" & 31" 522/517 Brown 1885-SharpsBill Black Powder
#1 Bullet 18"Expand/bent
2/3/10 540 Cast FN 1249/1260 1223/1230 22 yds 19" & 30" 534/533 Brown 1885-Sharps Bill Black Powder
#1 19" Nose Deformed Found Sideways

2/10/10 540 Cast FN 1254 1197 48 yds 39" & 15" 528-522 X1 Dead Straight 39"
X1-Lot's of expansion-limited penetration to 15"
2/10/10 520 Cast RN 1276 1212 48 yds 36" & 35" 521 X2-Straight

2/10/10 511 Paper 1180 1136 48 yds 36" & 35" 510-512 X1-36"Straight Veer Sideways at 38"
X1-35" Straight-Veer Sideways 37" 1" off course
2/10/10 470 Cast FN 1247 1184 48 yds 16" & 17" 472-467 X1-Sideways bent
X1-straight 17"


As YOU CAN SEE... Your 511 Paper Patched bullets went STRAIGHT to 36 and 35 " at which point they veered off course and were sideways at 38 Inches....... You mentioned 37-39 total, which is 38 in my book, but I only look SERIOUSLY at STABLE STRAIGHT LINE PENETRATION. There was NO DOWNGRADE at all, nothing cooked, nothing construed.... There is a difference between Straight Line Penetration, and total penetration IF THE BULLET VEERS OFF COURSE. This is recorded data and I could care less if it is better than one or another. I take great offense to being accused of cooking anything.

THere are many bullets that will out penetrate the best of your cast loads my friend, and they are not designed by me.. A good example is the .458 325 gr Barnes Socom Flat Nose Solid... It drives to 50 inches dead straight, I don't have anything to do with Barnes, and in fact I have no $$ interest in CEB or North Fork either, I am not an employee, I own no stock, and I receive no monies at all from any bullet company anywhere, and I have no reason to cook anything........

I am somewhat taken aback by your statements here, I bent over backwards to give you an honest test and do it correctly, and now to be accused of this, well that is overboard in my opinion...............

Michael

Michael 458--It is damned sure true. The first data that went up showed the Govt at 34 and 35 inches for the two tests, and the paper patched bullet at 37 and 39 inches. We were both surprised that the 540 FN did NOT give the good penetration we expected it to, rather it veered of and/or tumbled. It never gave anything near 39 inches of penetration as your current post here indicates. I remember being both proud and disappointed at the results. Proud because at the time, those penetration distances were close to the top, and better than many of the modern rifles. I was disappointed because the Sharps loaded with lead bullets and black powder was oh, so close to cracking the 40 inch plateau but didn't do it. I stand by this. Maybe you need to review your data, as mine is somewhere inside a hard drive I can't access or in cyberspace. Now if you or anyone wants to pay to have that hard drive forensically analyzed, I have it and it is available for testing. Maybe it is an oversight on your part. I'll spot you that. But the paper patch data originally showed 37 and 39 inches. Until we look inside that old hard drive, we will just have to agree to disagree on this.

Bill: I sure hate to see two great guys get into a pissing match over what I see is both of you saying the same thing more or less. Above (in bold) you state the PP bullets showed up to 39" of TOTAL penetration which Michael substatiated below, the only difference it appears the last couple of inches the bullet started to veer, even though it made it to 39".



Looks like it to me anyway and I think we can ALL agree 39" is plenty for just about anthing that walks...

Sharpsguy

All the original first tests were posted on page 23 of the terminal thread. The first tests were conducted at 22 yards. From comparisons in the Posted photos and data tags, it is spot on with the data recorded on the data sheet.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/2861098911/p/23

On page 29 I had finished the same test, only at 48 yard impact, in which most all the bullets did much better because of the lesser impact velocity, and less bullet upset.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/2861098911/p/29

I have your 540 FN at 39 inches dead straight penetration because at 48 yards one of them did not upset at all... This shows in the photo posted... And also in MY DATA RECORDED..... All others are the same as my data that I posted here. I keep pretty good records, and I can assure you that nothing was changed for any reason... Why would I?

Go to these pages, review them, they have not been edited or changed since the day they were posted, so I really don't see what the issue is?

To accuse me of "Cooking the books" is way overboard, I take great exception to that, and it is NOT TRUE, regardless of what you think you have in your mind or what you think. I tell you now, point blank in your words.... "IT DAMN SURE AIN"T TRUE", and what you see is what you get.

I keep data backed up on 3 different computers, one being this laptop I am on currently in Pretoria South Africa, it is also kept on three different LARGE external drives, and all kept on one small thumb drive as well, updated each time there is a change in anything within the folder.

It was easy to go back to the posts on page 23 and then again on page 29 of the Terminal Performance thread on AR, due to my record keeping, and the dates that I recorded the data. Other than that, I would have had no idea what page that would have been on.

You can stand on anything you want, the data is what it is, has not been altered or changed, no posts have been removed or changed for any reason anywhere. Why would I do this to begin with Sharps? Why would you think I would care if your cast bullet did 38 or 39 or 50 inches for that matter?

Michael

Michael 458-- Of course the data presently posted on Accurate Reloading confirms what you are saying. That is the data that is CURRENTLY in place. The data that was posted ORIGINALLY is what I am hanging my hat on.

When I went back to the site, after I got my new computer, I noticed both that the data had been changed, and the format and photos were slightly different. Same photos, but the lay out differed slightly. That is a very professional presentation, and I figured that you changed the layout a bit for aesthetic reasons.

I'm sure the data you have on your hard drives and that you have backed up reflects the current data on AR. If you have changed it for AR, I feel that you have changed it for your reference as well.

I know that I have data in my old hard drive that IS DIFFERENT than that currently on AR. Why it is different is beyond me.

Another popcorn moment...??

DF

What I'm learning from this thread is modern rifles, be it bolt or doubles, firing mono metal solids and softs with smokeless powder don't do a hell of a lot better than the Sharps rifles powered by black powder and lead bullets, and in many cases can't match 140 year old technology.

I reckon that's the reason the monos and bonded lead projectiles were invented, millions of dollars spent on research and development, ten of thousands of man hours on testing and shooting something that in a few cases bests 140 year old technology.

Basic cup and core bullets are junk on heavy game and have been for decades.

Also ANY scoped heavy game bolt rifle or double will be useless to try and compete with a Sharps on long range kill shots, anyone wanna try for an elk, sable, zebra, or kudu at 500 yards with their double or scoped 460 WM?

Didnt think so, and this coming from someone that owns three double rifles.

Near or far, the old Sharps rifles will be hard to best on accurate killing power and range.

Gunner

I wouldn't make that drastic a statement. The evolution took us to smaller bullets that didn't pound us as the need for big boomers were not needed. Suddenly long range shooting without a big looping curve was the rage. Pointed bullets proved superior in this game compared to the the big heavy bullets. Guns have always and probably will always first be about killing humans sadly. Useing the new military guns and technolgy hunters saw an advantage they were looking for and got on board. Then we found if we pushed them faster yet it alleviated even more drop. This put the cup and core to a test and the evolution continues.
Nothing is static when it comes to technology in firearms design or ammunition. You can get off at any level you want to and take advantage of whatever era suits your fancy or mindset.
At every level of the evolutionary change in men useing weapons for food or protection they have worked. But for the most part present day usually trumps all because it had a history of what worked and what didn't to arrive at its present form.

Gunner: Everything you say is spot on but the above pcitures speak volumes.

I view the Sharps and other BP/Hardcast bullets sort of as "super arrows" in that they penetrate very efficiently just as long as heavy thick bones are not encountered (Michael's test clearly show that at the links). What that means to me is that on say a lion, I can shoot him just about the same way I would with a soft point, BUT fully expecting the cat to react just like it had been shot with an arrow. In contrast, whack him with a smaller caliber expanding bullet, say a 375@2500 and the reaction and subsequent death will come much faster. There's just no substitute for high velocity given all things being equal.

On a buffalo, which are much less succeptible to velocity, I would still prefer to drive a bullet as fast as I could provided it was up to the task as there are reams of evidence published that when buffalo, when hit with say a 400gr bullet (soft)@ 2200 fps and one at 2600 plus, the faster bullet has a much more telling effect on them. Ross Seyfried had a tutorial on this years ago and came to the conclusion that a 416 Weatherby with a 400gr bullet like the TSX was the most impressive killer of buffalo he'd ever seen. The combination of a good soft point that holds together AND penetrates is in my view the way to a better kill. Sure a hard cast out of your Sharps will penetrate more than a SOFT, but I can guarantee you had that Gibbs been shooting a solid it would outpenetrate that 45/70 hardcast by a factor of at least two.

For elephant, there's just no way I would ever entertain a frontal brain shot on an elephant or a side brain for that matter with a lead bullet.

There is a reason as to why the African hunters of the 19th Century, who had ample access to 45 cal and 500 BPE rifles with bullets from 500 grain on up, had to go to those monstrous Eight and Four Bore rifles in order to safely and consistently stop/kill pachyderms effectively. Then when smokelss express rifles came on the scene those BP rifles fell out of use (in addition to the better upkeep, fouling etc).

Too bad you don't have access to a penetration box like Michael does, because I would bet the farm that your 500NE loaded with a CEB solid would run penetration circles against any and all bullets that your Sharps would use.

Sharpsguy clearly and convingly demonstrated the abilities of his Sharp rifles to take game at ranges past 500 yards, but again test have been done with NE cartridges and ladder sights out to similar ranges. I do LOVE my Sharps and have complete confidence in it, but up against a lion, buffalo and elephant up close, I'll take my double every time. I'll add one more thing. You're in Africa hunting Sable (3750 trophy fee) and there he is at 300 yards, perfectly lined up. Chip shot for Sharpsguy but for me and many others, I'll take my scoped 300 with 180gr TSXs every day. Cheers, jorge

I had around a 2000/2200 lb Beef Master bull break a leg and had to put him down, took a chainsaw cut a hole in his neck and hoisted him up with the tractor loader.

Shot him at 25 yards in the shoulders with the 300 gr btsp's from sierra and hornady as well as a 270 gr hornady sp from my 375 H&H, all bullets shed their sores and disintegrated..........that spells JUNK to me.

Shot him in the shoulders on the other side with a 500 gr hornady rnsp from my 458WM at 25 yards, bullet vel was 2150 fps, bullet squirted core and came a part, again..............JUNK.

C&C bullets on heavy game are JUNK

I will lay good money on were I to shoot the same bull in the shoulders with my 45-70 Sharps with a 520 gr gov bullet at 25 yards it wouldn't come apart and would most likely give complete penetration, certainly out penetrating C&C [so called] heavy game bullets.

Gunner

I hear what your saying Jorge, I shoot the mono solids in both heavy doubles of mine, they do penetrate, no doubt, but, spending 25/50K on a double or 10K on a fine magazine rifle, and 2/3/4 bucks per bullet should give a man a more commanding lead than they do over the Sharps rifles, and, if a man had to, he can reload at camp and hunt with bullets he hand loaded the night before, another advantage for the Sharps.

I would have no qualms about facing a cape buff or kodiak bear with my Shiloh 45-70 loaded with 520 gr gov bullets.

Given a proper rest, I would also take on an elk at 500 yards with the barrel sights, watching the 500 yard ram swing at Bill's place after catching one of those heavy bullets was a real eye opener, my 45-120 nearly slapped the ram offa the chains.

After all, the 520 gr gov bullet was developed to shoot through horses and kill the indians sneaking by on the other side.

I'm saying in the full 360 degrees of comparison the old Sharps is lacking very little compared to rifles that cost as much as some folks houses.

Gunner

The bullets you cited are indeed subpar the Sierra is GARBAGE, but again you are comapring apples and oranges. Try the same thing with a TSX, North Fork or of course a CEB Non-Con or a Swift A-Frame and they will hold together and penetrate sufficiently. that 45/70 520gr Govt bullet is for all practical purposes a solid and even then Michael's test showed severe deformation at close ranges. I've only shot two Capes but I can guarantee you the 400 gr Swift A Frame soft is light years ahead of any lead pill when it comes to putting heavy game down. If I want penetration without fear of deformation then I'll use a solid.

THIS WON'T FALL APART:

Agree with everything you say Gunner.

I think you got your money's worth out of that ole bull...

Bred your cows until he got down, then became big bullet test medium...

Multitasking, no doubt...

Now, with complete penetration, that 520 gr. cast bullet may have ended up in your loader tractor radiator...

DF

Would you also agree that for the tens of millions of dollars spent in R&D, we should be further ahead of the old Sharps by now?

Long before the automobile, electricity and such, the Sharps Rifles were light years ahead of their time and still a very viable choice imho.

Gunner

LMAO DF, with a tractor and loader, chainsaw and ax, chains and a good blade you can get all the bullet testing you want right here on the farm.

Gunner

Well we are just a tad: Last day of a 14 day buffalo/PG hunt. Kudu have been a bitch this hunt. Finally, at last light, LAST light, a kudu stops long enough at a lazered 352 yards an offers a shot. I'm here to tell you right now, those irons would have been as useless as tats on a bore hog. Glad we had a scoped 375 with a Swaro 1.6X6X42 on top. No wiping, blowing, corrosion, etc. I'll take a good soft bonded c/c like a NF or Swift any day.

Yes, telescopic sights definitely do have their place, thou I've used them most on another type of game.

Gunner

Optics enhance our ability to see, no doubt about it. We have night vision scopes and scopes with huge objective lenses that greatly improve low light visibility due to their superior light gathering ability. The addition of a lighted dot or reticle extends this even more.

I don't pretend to be able to shoot in the dark with my Sharps and barrel sights. BUT. The sights on my Sharps are such that if I can see an ANIMAL in a low light condition I can also see my SIGHTS well enough to kill him. There are iron sights, and then there are iron sights. Not all of them are created equal.

Well I suppose that all I can figure is you are calling me a liar and All I can say, not so, not true, and nothing has ever been changed. Sorry, I don't have the time for such nonsense, nor do I care one way or the other. You are Wrong, and its too bad. I changed nothing on AR, nor my data... Why in the world would I do such? Current? That was Feb of 2010... The terminal thread is now something like 270 + pages, this was page 23 and 29, and not changed, altered or edited in any way. I don't have time, nor inclination to do so, nor care one way or the other about your cast loads or bullets......... If I recall correctly, I sent all the data and bullets back to you after testing???? Is that correct? If you do in fact have them, I am sure I included the tags with them for you......

At any rate, what is posted is what it is, like it or not it makes little or no difference to me one way or the other. I have nothing but my time and energy to do something for you, at your request, and this is the [bleep] thanks I get for it, Accused of Cooking your test work for some unknown reason??? Thanks... But no thanks.... Then called a liar to boot, you are a sad individual and of little consequence one way or the other, and seems rather ignorant to boot.... I do not appreciate your words, or your accusations and you are wrong from the beginning to now. Find your [bleep] data, then show me, or shut the [bleep] up! End of Story..........

Michael