Were we out of bounds to be there ? Im only asking men like D D. who were there .

Only guys who were there . Not the campfire kooks and obtuse nuts .

Were you there?

Why don't you Send DD a PM and ask directly.

BMT

I'm almost certainly a little slower than most of the guys...for many years afterward, I thought we went where we were told, did the best we could, got the best result we could given the mismanagement and presidential f...kery of limited war. I didn't finally wake up until the details of the Gulf of Tonkin incidents were declassified in 2005. Now, I am of the opinion that it was just another boondoggle by the DC Military Industrial Complex bought politicians...with the added bonus of 58,000 names on the wall. Too bad Robert McNamara didn't make the wall.

I think we were. Had no valid reason whatsoever to engage in that affair.

I was there and I’m disabled as a result. Yeah we had no national interest to be there. Now for Jane Fonda?

I went because I was 19 and my country asked me to go. I still believe that the Domino effect was a real threat and it would have ruined a lot more countries if we had not stopped it.

Jane Fonda should have been sent to prison.

I understand all of the declassified stuff and the opinions on the warpig elites. I’m always dumbfounded by the public stuff too such as when Senator JFK went there and came back to report that Hồ Chí Minh’s request to help the Vietnamese liberate their country from the French was much like the original Colonists of the USA.

Hồ Chí Minh was forced to work with the Chinese for support in his cause.

I think the original poster’s question is valid for sure.

After the Soviet Union fell and the KGB and other files were open for a short period there was one article that I read that said the files showed that the domino theory was what they had planned and Viet Nam changed their thinking. I don't know if the article was factual or not but a lot of young men were killed or maimed in that war.

No need to do that. If some idiots can't understand that he doesn't want to hear from them, then shame on them.

None of us saw more than the last lower-left pixel of the big picture, but most of us at the time thought it was either a mistake or a lost cause. Having said that, however, the "Domino Theory" of the time said that we had to stop Communism there or it would spread throughout all of Asia. In light of the fact that Communism did not spread past Vietnam (and it is today in place there in name only) one might have to agree that we did in fact win that one.

As others have said, we all just did our jobs and let the results be what they were. I'm damn proud of the part I played.

"As others have said, we all just did our jobs and let the results be what they were. I'm damn proud of the part I played."

In 1969 I compared the country to the world's sewer...

Rocky summed up my thoughts precisely.

We won every major battle- - - -the politicians lost the war. It happened before in Korea, and later in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, and a bunch or other third world hellholes. The patriotic young men and women were fed wholesale into the meat grinder for no good reason, and the corrupt pols kept lining their pockets. We should have stayed home and shot more "domestic enemies" instead of going halfway around the world and making a half-azzed effort to take out the "foreign" ones! Every Sea Land container filled with bacon, bullets, or body bags that went to Viet Nam put a few more bucks into Lyndon Johnson's pocket!

I went in the USMC in 1966 to support my country and follow family tradition.

My uncle had been on Saipan, Tinian and Iwo Jima. I figured I should pitch in too.

I didn't go to Vietnam until 1969 and left in 1970. No, I didn't feel we were out of bounds being there.

I do feel certain people grossly mismanaged their parts in it, specifically Robert McNamara and General Westmoreland. Melvin Laird and General Abrams were more cautious and effective.

The isssues and our operations in SE Asia at that time were so broad that ignoring our effects in Thailand, Laos and Cambodia seems odd if not criminal.

Laos was a huge undertaking for us. Vast resources employing CIA, us air force, green berets, Montagnards, Hmong and Royal Thai police.

I do feel like we backed the wrong horse. We should have supported Ho Chi Minh. Just how we could have done that and not encouraged the "domino" effect I do not know.

Instead we selected a chain of dictators getting rich off us.

When Ho died all the Vietnamese I knew wore black armbands and mourned him.

vietnam$

Born in 69, so obviously...

We sided with France over Ho Chi Minh when he wanted to self govern his country!
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


Before he turned to whoever would help him.



Below the top half dozen levels of command,
our men were honorable, and where their leaders wanted them.

I hope LBJ and McNamara are where they belong.

Ask yourself this? Is it logical to believe that the United States, which was able to mobilize from almost ground zero and was almost entirely responsible for defeating two of the biggest, if not the two biggest, military industrial powers on earth at the time, would go into a tiny, contained conflict, spend billions of dollars and thousands of lives using what was then the most cutting edge technology, over two decades, and not be able to prevail? We only quit when the political pressure at home was too great.

What about the Middle East? Somehow, with all the intelligence resources at our disposal, we failed to realize that citizens of one of our "allies" spent a couple of years planning to cause a bigger than Pearl Harbor incident in one of our major cities? That then plunged us head and shoulder into another prolonged conflict, spending money at a rate that made Viet Nam look like a cheap date, and we were still unable to resolve that over two decades, finally leaving when the political pressure got too great to remain.

When you hear, "Oh, but the cost to the nation," keep in mind that whenever there's a "cost to the nation" someone is making that money. When you hear, "Oh, but the lives lost," remember that human life (at least the lives of the social class of those of us who go to fight) is completely meaningless and only a means to an end.

Now think what's going on in Ukraine and why there are forces trying so hard to get us involved over there.

We've been had, boys. Every conflict we've been involved in since WWII is just an inexcusable ploy to make the rich richer and the poor poorer, while the sons of the poor are ground up into cannon fodder. Sometimes I'm not so sure WWII couldn't have been avoided.

Well, it's a viewpoint.

Spent 13 months there, did not take take me long to come to the conclusion that the situation was a waste of blood and treasure.

Thank you and all the other Vietnam vets Craigster.

LBJ didn't even try.
They were afraid China would jump in like Korea.
The plan was to bleed Vietnam just enough to force them to
agree to a Korean like split.

That's why we didn't bomb obviously strategic targets.
Why, we didn't take out their Migs immediately.
Why our guys were fighting with handcuffs.


LBJ is to blame for so much that's went wrong.
He is largely to blame for the shape we are in today, for the [bleep] up thing they
call a Democratic Party. For the socialist universities...

Mostly, that goes back to the Anti-War hippies.
Which he is largely to be blamed for.

I would encourage all to read General Smedley Butler's book "War is a Racket". It comes from a speech he gave in the 1920's.

First may the stench of urine mark the area around lbj's and McNamara's graves.
jane to go on to her own private hell.
No telling the truths and facts that got us there, I just wish there had been a more satisfying ending.

Some damn beautiful country I will have to say!

Google Earth visit to Duc Pho and Chu Lai show a remarkable change in landscape.

Hey Rock, I read Your Book, thanks for the copy, a good read.

My son hangs out with the Nam vets at the VA says they are the only group of guys that relate to him and his experiences, good, but very sad, in that we as a country did not learn shat.

War is all out, you either do or you do not.

Thanks, Rapier. I think my books have two messages: That the Vietnam War was confusing, contradictory, and crazy; and that no matter how more or less sane you were went you went there, you came home less so.

With all due respect for all that were there and especially those who were unable to return to their loved ones. It wasn't our job to critique the reason why or how wars are fought. And it's to easy to be an armchair quarterback after 1/2 century.

That seemed to be the forte of college students and dropouts and stay at home moms, mostly on the left.

Seems like the more things change the more they stay the same.

Unfortunately whether we should have been there or not isn't the real issue. Many of the surviving ones who served are now being diagnosed with illnesses relating to Agent Orange exposure. The real tragedy is they weren't protected.

The only reason they were communist backed is because the USA wouldn’t help liberate them from French Imperialism from the evidence I’ve seen.

The Warpigs seem to set things up for a conflict in banana regions against certain players but never screwed with the British or French empires. Like a good ole boy plan.

The first trip I got there just in time for Tet.

I came away dead certain that there was no way in hell that the Vietnamese were goingto get on their bicycles and come over here to do us harm. We had no need to do what we did to convince them not to try.

When, where, and for how long did you serve? Unless you've
"been there- - - -done that" while wearing your country's uniform,- - - - -STFU!

The cats could be a hassle when trying to recover the dead and wounded in some areas.

Hot rod, 69-70 45th Scout dog platoon. Walked point on patrols.Good enough? What about you?

There for portions of 1968 and 69. Also just in time for Tet. Navy aviation out of DaNang doing night flights with what at that time was cutting edge infra-red gear for troop and equipment detection. With sightings, our planes (Douglas A-3 Skywarriors) would kick out flares and death and destruction would rain down from higher altitudes.

One cannot win when fighting on only half of the battlefield. Defense does not do it. I've heard claims that if we had continued to bomb the north for about another two weeks, they would have given up.

To win such a conflict, one must hammer the enemy until they beg for an unconditional surrender. Discharged, discouraged with our effort, and in college when we vacated Saigon with our tails between our legs.

Upside - GI Bill payed for 1 and 1/2 degrees.

We promised Ho that if he helped us beat on the Japanese in WW2, we would let them have their country at the conclusion. We stabbed him in the back by letting the French continue their reign instead.

Took 10 years or so exhaust avenues of resolve then a few more for us to get into it.

I had a lot of family over there on both sides. I was born in 1966 so a lot of the SR. Guys when I was in the Navy had lots of valuable opinions.

Johnson, McNamara are among the greatest POS humans that the US has had in my lifetime, though Zero and Biden are trying real hard to get that high up the list

MIC is a real thing for sure. The greatest men of the Baby Boom Generation were scarred or killed in their prime while Bill Gates, Clinton and Ayers prevailed instead. That is the worst part. I have always believed the Vietnam Vets are/were awesome.

My CC in Boot Camp was a Gunners Mate Chief on the New Jersey right before he got saddled with us. As a pup in the Navy he was a GM on the river boats.

70-72 B-52 electronic maintenance- - - -on flying status. Arc Light, Rolling Thunder, etc. 74-75 Thailand (classified C-130 outfit)- - - -we were "officially" at Clark AB Philippines for paperwork purposes.

thank you for your service. nuff said.

It all wound down my senior year in high school, so my perspective is much more distant than many.

It seems to me that "winning wars" is something that's really hard to define. Rocky's take, above, serves as an example to compare and contrast against how things have worked out in Iraq. As things stand right now, Iraq does not look like a win even though we destroyed Saddam's regime completely. Things may stay in a state of flux over there for the region to stabilize and civilize...but who knows. It's almost as if the undertaking is like carving a statue out of stone and the shape and form of the statue is already defined, and we have no idea what it's going to look like once we've chiseled away all the stone that can be removed...and then what you see is what you get. It's a curious thing, these unintended consequences.

I still remember when LBJ said we would not be sending American boys to Vietnam to do for Asian boys what they should be doing for themselves. The right words, followed by completely different actions. What would have happened had we not intervened? Who the hell knows?

One conclusion I have reached for myself after having witnessed from afar the results of our involvement in the Middle East: you can't win freedom for people who don't want it for themselves. They'll piss it away in less than a generation. We're finding out how hard keeping freedom is for our own selves and not doing such a great job of it. I just wonder if we really want it bad enough to win it back and keep it for ourselves. It's a crying shame, very literally, that so many are so willing to piss away what so many others sacrificed so much for.

Believe it or not there used to be an actual stated, taught, and learned definition of winning a war, terrorism, and vaccination.

The deep state has changed all three.

Well, take a look at where Vietnam is today. They are one of our major trade partners. The war began because they would not tolerate French rule, which is perfectly understandable. They partnered with China and Russia out of need not desire. The Vietnamese and China have been at war with each other for many, many centuries. Fist fight they had after they took over was with China, and today they have a great deal of contention brewing with China over possession of near shore coastal islands. Ho declared them commies out of need, not belief. LBJ launched the war for his personal gain, nothing more or less.

That and the war complex. Same thing as today, war makes money.

I think every statement you make is pretty much indisputable, and our refusal to stand on principle and pressure the French to GTFO left them (meaning Ho) no choice. It's a bit difficult to wrap one's head around the fact that our position was essentially "we wouldn't help you out then, so now we have to kill you." It truly does appear that the vacuum left by the French evacuation was seen as an opportunity by the MIC, who conveniently had a puppet by the name of Johnson in the White House.

But still, that leaves the question unanswered, and maybe it necessarily has to remain so. It's unfortunate that we can never be certain what may have been down the path untaken.

I was born in 54 so at eighteen I was close to the end. Asked my dad if I could join instead of being drafted. He was a WW11 pacific vet and told me “I’ll kill you myself before you join” . So I didn’t join of course. He was a man of his word.

The draft ended in 1972. They called up to number 95, I was 83. Someone born in 1954 would not have been eligible for the draft until 1974.

A couple of interesting things. I was drafted with monocular vision. My left eye was scarred and the idiot doctor at the draft physical thought it was from being in a fight. I had tried to join prior and was turned down due to having monocular vision.

Meanwhile, I had found a decent job and gotten married. I went to the physical thinking I was going to be sent home, but was sworn in, loaded on a bus and shipped off without being told where I was going. That night I climbed out a second story window and shinnied down a drain pipe to call home.

1972 was an election year. The first thing I did when I arrived at basic in late October was to tell them I wanted to vote. I was denied that right. Hence, I considered it slavery.

In my two years, I mostly encountered idiots in leadership positions. They held huge classes to teach the ASVAB as one needed a score showing at least a modicum of intelligence to become a NCO. Most attendees had to take the class multiple times.

I spent most of my time handing out rubbers, giving safe sex lectures, and making sure prostitutes had passed their weekly VD exam. The only thing more plentiful than prostitutes was drugs. I was basically a doorman in a whore house.

A study done a couple of years ago showed it on average took a draftee's family 3 generations to reach financial parity with those who had not been drafted. We were taken from schools, careers, and decent jobs to be paid a substandard wage. Many of us had to defer paying bills which left us with a huge financial hole to climb out of once released.

There were race problems, but I will say that the three people I met in leadership positions and could respect were black.

Your post is bizarre dude....a guy couldn't be drafted until he was 20 years old? They deemed you fit for the draft via a physical, then shipped you off that same day without opportunity to talk to family? The Army then denied you the right to vote? You were in charge of making sure prostitutes had passed their weekly VD exam? Govt sponsored hookers? I am sure there were some situations like that, but they weren't even somewhat under the table? The study you mention also doesn't match my experience with family friends who were drafted.

I wasn't born till '79 so I have no first hand experience of what went on back then but this is the first I have heard of a lot of the things you're mentioning here...and I come from a LONG military background.

The hookers in Thailand and the and the Philippines in the 1970's were registered- - - -with the local government health departments- - - -not the military, and were tested weekly. A positive STD test got them jailed and quarantined for a while. They wore badges with an ID number and we were supposed to try to remember the number of the skanks we laid in case we caught the drip. Every USAF orderly room had hundreds of condoms on hand- - - -we could drop in and grab a handful anytime we wanted.

Actually, Ho initially approached the US in the late 40s asking to pressure the French to leave VN. The US basically ignored him, so he went to the next country that would at least talk to him.

Looking back on it, I think we would have been better off letting Germany have France.

I joined in 1973. I served with guys who were drafted in 1972. As I recall there were very few deferments given for the last of the draftees. If your number was low enough you were in. Period.

kwg

They still hand out rubbers in quantity. I have no doubt that was something readily available. I just had never heard of US government sponsored hookers, at least those that weren't in clandestine. I am intrigued by the possibility though.



Deferments---or lack of---are one thing. I have no doubt they dropped standards significantly which is why I am not surprised by the ASVAB courses mentioned.
It was the blatant refusal of voting rights, immediate shipping out, the 20 year age requirement and whatever else that I had never heard of before.

It has always been my understanding that if your number came up you were given a date to report to the MEPPS with overnight bag in hand.
If you passed the physical then you were gone to whatever training base of whatever branch you were assigned. No going home or reporting back later or anything.
That’s the drift I got listening to the guys who had been drafted.
I also know three guys locally who were drafted during Vietnam and ended up going somewhere else.
One went to Korea, one to Germany and one to Guam.
I personally think that the military we sent to war in 65-66 was one of the finest militaries we had fielded up to that time.
Nothing but respect and gratitude for those who served over there.

I think I took the induction physical three times. First was when I turned 18 and had to register for the draft. That would have been 1965. Then had to take it again to qualify me for flight status as a Junior in ROTC. Finally, about six weeks before graduation and getting my commission, I got drafted in error and had to take it yet again. This time, they agreed with me that it was an error, but that they couldn't waive it and screw up all their paperwork. Having already taken the written IQ test twice, I had no problem getting 100% on it - which I immediately learned was about a "once a year" thing with them. At the exit interview, I had both the Army and Navy guys promising me flight and sub schools. Boy were they disappointed when I said that I already had orders to report to Air Force flight school.

Regarding the 'draft', my experience, mid - late '60s, mandatory registration at local Selective Service office at 18 years old. Next at some point (more often than not soon after) came via mail official letter ordering to report to X location on X date and time, for physical & psychological testing which generally was at a nearby military medical facility and was not done individually but in groups of X potential draftees.

Traveled as a group (all under 20 years old, some still in high school) by charter bus to testing location (Louisville, KY / Ft. Knox here), fed and spent night in civilian hotel on Army's dime. Testing all day next day. Fed and spent night at hotel again on Army's dime again. Those who completed testing satisfactorily, regardless pass of fail, fed then traveled back to pick up point by charter buss next morning. A few tried 'tricks' attempting to fail testing, got caught and had to stay longer for retesting.

Was kinda bizarre, high school athlete 'Jocks' wearing letter jackets singing in unison and laughing, on the bus home, "Hallelujah, we're unhealthy ..."

Actual draft order to report for duty happened at some point later via mail. That was a one-way trip. During that period, high numbers of warm bodies were in very high demand so (no surprise) original minimum passing test scores were lowered enough to meet recruit numbers requirement.

(U.S. Marines happened to be 'drafting' a few at that time, too. They did ask for volunteers first, though...)

In '69 the politics of the war whether right or wrong weren't on my radar...Just too busy being transferred from an R&D squadron at Eglin AFB to active gunship training..

Flying Close air support out of Phu cat was primarily dusk to dawn flight ops which took awhile getting used to.

After having only a few engagements under the belt it was quite obvious to never underestimate your adversary

but be willing to change engagement SOP's or tactics at a moments notice...My '69 & 70 adventures gave me the greatest respect for the guys in the trenches as well as the hardships they endured daily..

Amen, Flem. It was Gospel truth that the most dangerous month in combat was your first two weeks, and your last two. The first because it took time to realize that all your training was obsolete because the enemy had changed tactics. The last two because you got over-cautious and unwilling to risk anything. Either one could you killed.

By my time, they no longer told you exactly when you were going home. That kept you sharp until you got surprised with a "go home" notice. I got mine while airborne on a mission over Cambodia. The radio said to return to base and pack my stuff.

My experience as well Rocky..I stopped at Ops to check my crew assignment and tail number for the upcoming night missions not to find my name on the grease board..

A WTF moment for sure as I realized stateside orders must be pending since I was so Short..

Once the lottery was in place, you could be one day past 19, or one day short of 21. I turned 21 in AIT. Since I was only responding to a mention of the draft, I did not say where I was sent. While in AIT an executive order came out prohibiting the sending of any more draftees to VN. I went to Korea.

I grew up dirt poor, was putting food on the table by picking up pop bottles while in grade school, and worked full time during high school. The law limited the number hours one could be employed in high school, but in addition to my job in a grocery store I cut lawns and did what odd jobs I could find.

I was an angry old man by the time I was drafted. I brawled for a hobby. Any time, any place.

1972 was the first time 18 year olds could vote in a national election. The army was not prepared to enable that. The local election office wanted a mailing address for an absentee ballot, and I had no idea where I was going to be if inducted. The army was unwilling to let me return home to vote.

Inductees were placed into one of 5 categories depending on ASVAB score. Go home, do anything you were told to do without question, future leaders, the constant questioners, and those egg heads that would develop something like the Covid vaccines without any thought to consequences.

I fell at the top of the of the constant questioners and just below egg head status. My first couple of weeks in basic saw me sent to the shrinks a couple of times. I received a good conduct medal upon discharge, but I was pitched out of every unit I was assigned to.

For doing things like this, every time a request for bodies came in, I was offered up. There was a major inspection coming up at the battery I was at. I was guarding a Nike Hercules site secure location. When the inspector showed up at my post, my mustache was cut down like Hitler's, my forelock was combed down onto my forehead, and I was goose stepping around the guard shack. When asked what my job was, I goose stepped over to the oil burner space heater, patted it and responded that I was in charge of the showers.

Everywhere I was sent, I asked first to be sent to Camp Howard as they had the best mess hall, and if that was refused I asked to be given the worst job that nobody else wanted. I usually got the worst job, but eventually I ended up at Howard. If you are doing the worst job, everybody leaves you alone.

In Korea, and you can look this up on the net, the Korean Government and the US military began a joint prostitution program. The Koreans promoted prostitution as a way to better the economy.

The prostitutes were allowed into the EM clubs. At the battery, the medic checked the VD cards and condoms were available. More so than good food, warm clothes, and heat. This was during the oil embargo, and we were allowed oil for the space heaters one hour each morning and night.

At Howard, the prostitutes came in a back gate a short distance from the EM club. Upon arrival at the guard shack, I checked their ID and VD card, issued a pass numbered to the storage slot for their paperwork, and sent them into the club. Upon selection by a GI, the prostitute and GI would return to the shack for her paperwork. At this point I would show the GI that she had tested clean that week, hand her back her paperwork, give a short safe sex lecture, and give the GI 3 condoms. I let them pick their condoms out of a large container. The rocket ships were the most popular.

I really enjoyed the mess hall at Howard. I had been stealing cans of dog food from the guard dog supply and mixing it with ramen and eggs from the village. I was 6' 2" when drafted, 121 pounds and had a metabolism like a humming bird. At night I would heat it on the oil space heater.

And no, we did not get our jobs and benefits back as promised. I was given a different job, and refused health care for 90 days. To add insult to injury, when I turned 65 I applied for VA health care and was means tested out of it. Thank you Billy Clinton. It took three years, but eventually they had to give it to me as I was injured in Korea.

Once you sign up you forever lose any personal right to choose moral and just behavior. "Serving my country" is a thin ethical shield against crimes and sins committed in her service. Such an excuse got plenty of soldiers shot or hanged when their side lost. Vietnam, like most wars was evil, immoral, and extremely profitable. There was no national security risk at stake at all, no humanitarian crisis either. LBJ rewarded his deep pocket backers and psychopathic generals like Bombs Away LeMay, who helped him kill JFK and escape prison. I have a lot of sympathy for those duped into service but there was nothing patriotic much less heroic in it. Many of them kill themselves every week. It was a sick, abysmal waste. I refused.

Sucks to be you, I'm sure!

Yup, both Crash Pad and eclectic seem to rank somewhere between dipschit and azzwipe on the manly man scale.

A real man raised his hand, took the oath, and did his effing job.

I was too young but one of my brothers got drafted. He was on the ground in Cambodia while you were flying cover. I know he appreciated everyone overhead, especially the door gunners.

Someone once asked him why he didn't go to Canada. He just shrugged and said if not him, they would've just drafted the next guy.

That's a real man.

RR, one big sign of a lack of intellect is to attack a person rather than refute what they have stated.

An officer or a NCO has a duty to the people under them. By fulfilling that duty they earn respect. Failing to do that duty should earn them nothing but contempt.

There is not one reason a private should help an officer earn a promotion if said officer fails to see that said private is provided with adequate clothing, food, and quarters. If the private is living in squalor, so should the officer.

We had 5 batteries. In a couple of them one could get a decent meal. We would ride hours in the back of a deuce and a half to get to one of those mess halls. The other batteries had mess sergeants selling food out the back door. The difference between the batteries with good mess halls and those with bad was the battery's company commander.

A private had three choices, one assist the person who was screwing you over, be complacent and do as little as possible, or fight back. When you have eaten as many cans of dog food as I did, I might consider your opinion worthy. My guess is that you were taking care of Rocky without consideration of those below your exalted rank.

My duty was to call bull poop on the corrupt officer corp from LBJ on down.

In other words, a pot-stirring REMF. No wonder you couldn't buy any respect.

"the battery's company commander"?

I grow more suspect of you with every post.

Man dats funny.

eclectic, you are the one who said he never fit in, made trouble wherever you went, and took deliberate steps to be obnoxious. You have no flipping idea what or who I took care of, or how.

Did Defugg come up with another sock puppet? We need to stop feeding the troll!

+1... It is usually pretty easy to tell the actual players from the fans in these sorts of threads.

I think the only batteries he's ever been familiar with are the ones he uses in his Maglite.

Fixed it!

Good job !

You people are laughable. It would take less than 10 minutes to find the strength of a Nike Hercules battery in Korea, the rank of the officer in charge and the relationship between the US military, the Korean government and prostitution. But you guys would rather sit around and pull each others cranks. Go ahead and attack the messenger, it is easier than thinking.

Leadership failed. It was unbecoming if an officer went to a prostitute, but get her a job in the mess hall and he was dating a waitress.

Call me a REMF if you want, the dim wits in the military put me there. I had no choice in the matter. The way you guys act, you would help your rapist rather than fight back.

I would guess they put you there for a reason. By the way, what's the MOS for a whorehouse door gunner ? Tell us what your "given" MOS was.

I am not a Vietnam veteran but my father is and he lost friends there. There is a book titled No True Glory. It ends with a paragraph that is as applicable to the veterans of Vietnam as it is to Fallujah.


Happy 4th to you all.

+1

All made up.

My dad was the Operations Officer of the 2/94 Field Artillery when it deployed from Ft. Sill to Camp JJ Carroll in northern South Vietnam. The 2/94 was attached to the 3rd Marine Division and fired their their support, as well as in support of South Korea Army operations in the area. He had lots of great stories. Tales of firing on pink elephants the NVA used to for transport (pink when they rolled in the red clay and the sun baked in on to a pink color), hitting a NVA AA position with the first shot to the excitement of a Marine spotter, using a 175mm gun as a sniper rifle to take out a sniper. Ton of good stories.

One of my favorites was the story about the NVA attack on Camp Carroll in March 1967. My dad's tent took a hit from a 122mm rocket (he wasn't in it). But the NVA managed to hit the mess tent blowing it up and sending donuts the cook was making all over. Dad said when the attack was over, Marines were rummaging through the area picking up and eating the donuts.



Dad died a couple of years ago. Just a couple of months before my mom did. Here's that old soldier and his wife of well over 60 years years going to their final resting place together. (Dad always had a juvenile sense of humor. Had he seen this, he would have said something about the horse chit to my mom and laughed. My mom would have tensed up and rolled her eyes. LOL.) (And my dad always looked out for my mom. In this pic, it's nearly 100 degrees in August. Dad made sure mom had the A/C.)

Big fan of Jimmy Carter?

The draft ended in 1973, I was 18 in 1972 and still have my draft cards, 1 with the 1H classification as standard, then 1D as I was in college at that time and enrolled in ROTC.

You are confused, and may want to hit your life alert button and get some help…

Many years ago I trusted people until they clearly demonstrated they were not deserving. I accepted that Oswald shot Kennedy, and that we had proper basis for involving ourselves in Vietnam. At that time I was not enthused about college and knew that the draft would nail me. Tail end of 1967 I decided to beat the draft, and signed up to be an Army pilot. Reported for duty in Feb '68. Soloed on 5 July '68 and in April '70 was fixin' to get ready to head back to the US of A.



I have no regrets other than the buddies that were lost for no good reason. I no longer trust people until it is earned, and likely will never trust the government again.

The wars in Korea, Vietnam and the Mideast could have been settled in a very, very short span of time, but our politicians had other plans. If one decides to launch another conflict, they should use the very biggest hammer on the front end.

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You are a real man? Or a murdering fool? You could at least have the dignity and courage - the basic humanity - to admit you were used in atrocious crimes against innocent people. You were in a difficult position for sure and may not have understood the truth at the time. Now you do! Admit it. I won't call you a coward or anything more degrading but you need to back the [bleep] off with your jaded insults. Men fragged their commanding officers and smoked heroin for a reason. Kids are still dying from agent orange and cluster bombs. YOU did that! You are no hero or selfless patriot. Draftees suicide themselves every week over what they experienced in "our" wars. I and thousands others at least had the balls to say [bleep] You to the man. So grow up.

If that's what you need to tell yourself, that's fine. But it's bullsh*t.


All they did was what their country asked them to. Although "ask" is not the right word in some cases.

You have to be a man to insult a man, Crash Pad. I'm safe from you.

Thanks for your service to every Vet, regardless of where and when you served.

I read a stat a while back that showed an astonishing 13,853,027 folks claimed to have served in-country during the 2000 census while the DOD records show 2.7 mil actually served. That leaves 4 out 5 claimants to be liars and wannabe’s.

Just the other day I ran into a guy wearing a Vietnam vet cap with 173rd Airborne Brigade insignia on it. I thanked him for his service and he went on to expound on his Nam experience. He seemed a little young looking but more importantly, his stories unraveled in about 2 minutes. I never told him that I was a vet of the 173rd in Nam and just walked away from his bullshiit mid sentence. I figured that sent a stronger message than confronting his lies, which he probably believes now… I’m 74 and too old to fist fight and that kind of crap isn’t worth having to shoot some dude in self defense. 🤣

How can you possibly kill women and children? Well, you just don’t have to lead them as much…

CP, you seem to have a knack for ignoring the broad reality that was experienced in Nam. Brutality? The VC and North Vietnam were the masters of brutality and violated the peace accords that saw the French leave town, and later, those they agreed to in ‘73. Most likely you haven’t a clue about the atrocities they committed on a near daily basis.

The OP asked if our presence was justified. I think not, but we were not the savages in that war, not by a long shot.

Damn what a hat.....




RR, DD, Flem, you men shouldn't even acknowledge most here.

Big thank you to all the vets!! It takes a commie bastard to criticize the men that were in Vietnam. You can be against the war but to not support those that served is pathetic. I wasn't there and wasn't in the military. I have slightly older friends that were. The circumstances that many were forced to endure to save themselves and buddies is horrendous. My belief is that these wars were unnecessary or at best mishandled. This belief in no way affects my support for all that served, didn’t make it back and are still living with it.

Getting drafted was just a fact of life in the sixties. Life was put on hold while we went to pay our dues. I can't say I was appreciative of the opportunity; I was just getting some momentum in my life. Since then, I have come to believe, everyone should provide two years of service to the nation. Not necessarily in armed forces but some sort of mandatory service. This should be a condition of immigration and a condition of citizenship. Bring back the CCC. Build infrastructure, assist others; do something of value to the nation. After that, when one chooses to whine about the state of the nation, they at least have some skin in the game. There should be no exemptions.
As far as Vietnam is concerned, I did not get sent there (I went to Germany which, strangely enough, was not considered an overseas assignment; Alaska was!), so my opinion doesn't mean a lot. Lost classmates there, and later to cancer; likely due to AO exposure. I may not be proud of the government's choices at the time, but I have to respect the sacrifice made by the men. We draftees were young, and still finding our way. It was part of growing up. GD

Our missions were strictly based on real time whether it be CAS for our grunts,flying cover for base perimeters, convoys, night watch for POL sites and firebases or defending local hamlets/villages against the slaughter of civilians...As Dan said there was no lack of brutality toward locals suspected of collaboration..

I'm very proud of the AC47's overall mission success as well as blazing the trail for the new modern AC-130 Ghost Rider and variant gunships to come.

What Dakota said.
X2.

Great story, 10Glocks. It's sometimes tough being raised by men like your Dad and my Dad. But, it's the greatest blessing one can receive.

You bastards are welcome at my fire, anytime, and I’ll buy the beer.




P

I can’t stand it when good men are disparaged or their contributions are minimized because some want to paint with a very broad brush using the actions of a few to reflect on the whole. It’s inaccurate and dishonest to try and paint everyone with that ignorant broad stroke since most guys sacrificed a lot while 60,000+ men sacrificed everything doing what they were asked to do. They don’t get to make decisions or have an opinion, they do what they’re told and they do it well. Later in the war the attitudes of the draftee army wasn’t the same as the all volunteer force that preceded it but that’s to be expected.

My father in law was extremely proud of his decade+ in Vietnam and Laos with Air America. He was a very easy going guy that avoided getting angry or upset but if anyone insinuated that Air America was involved in drug running he’d get angry. He said that there were undoubtedly guys that did illegal things but they were definitely a minority and he personally knew of no one that did that crap. Nothing will piss off the good guys like drawing a comparison between them and the bad guys….rightfully so!

Saw this at the local VA vet center