I originally posted this on the Savage Forum, but thought there might be others on this forum who might also be interested.

Picked up a really nice historically significant rifle today. 1952 Mannlicher-Schoenauer 30-06 with a Bushnell Chief 3x-9x scope.

The silver plate inlaid in the stock reads:

9 December 52 at Yok Kok Chon Korea with
MS Rifle 16333 and Bnl Scope 70579
Capt. F. T. Aylward fired 3 rounds, killed 2 snipers at
ranges surveyed at 1938 and 1942 yards.
Observed by
E. W. Ridings Maj. Gen. CG3 US Inf. Div.
J. F. Franklin Jr. Col. C of S,
H. Barber Lt. Col. Div. Engr.
Kim Hak Yang Lt. Col. Inf. Army of ROK.

Capt. Francis T. Aylward, 3rd Bat. Army Infantry was also a WWII combat commander with the nickname "Screaming Eagle." Maybe someone on the forum might have more information.

Just a further note, I computed the distances at

1938 yards = 5814 ft. = 1.101 miles
1942 yards = 5826 ft. = 1.103 miles

Who says Bushnell scopes ain't any good???

Don

What a piece of history. Nice.

Sweet.

wow.....

oh, wow...........

And some think you need a 7 mag for long range killing.

Outstanding, did Griffin & How build that one? That is their scope mount I see on it.

I wasn't aware Bushnell ScopeChief's were even available in 1952?



Casey

T LEE, factory mannlicher-schoenauer with factory engraving, the scope mt is similar to a Griffin & Howe but it is not exactly the same, could be a copy. Don

Could have wore a different scope originally, but that is one neat rifle!

AWESOME rifle and history. Thanks for the pictures and story.

Very Nice Rifle

Casey, must have been one of the first!! evidently a high quality scope at the time!! Don

I thought it was later also, certainly for the 3-9x, but I've been wrong before.

That is really something.
Thank you very much for posting that, Loggah!

Pretty cool to have a rifle like that.

I have Dad's old Rem 760 in the safe and it has an old 3-9 Scopecheif on it from the early sixties. After forty five years of being abused and neglected and I could not count how many hundreds of miles in a saddle scabbard, it is still as clear and bright as any scope I have ever looked through.

I would put it on a rifle I was using a bit more if I could figure out how to mount it.

Dad's scopecheif has a picitiny style rail built into the bottom, and Bushnell supplied custom bases to fit that rail and the contour of the appropriate rifle action. That was their answer to the problem of ring slippage in some of the early mounting systems.

Steelhead, the serial number on the scope is the same engraved on the plaque!!! maybe the army got a couple to try on the commies!!! Don

RickyD, the scope and rifle serial numbers are engraved in the plaque! so its wearing what was used. Don

WOW!!!! That's one fancy sniper rifle. Thanks for sharing.

I've never heard of F.T. Aylward but he must have been a helluva good shot!!! During the Korean War, it was easier to bring your own stuff in since they had none of the silly regs that have evolved over time. CPT Wm. T. Brophy had his Win M70 target rifle sent to him and proceeded to ruin many a North Korean's day.

This is an awesome find. Congrats!!!

reminds me of that scene in the Longest Day where Peter Lawford is colonel of the 42nd Highlanders and carries a little 1903 Mannlicher carbine ashore on D-Day. Pip, pip, cheerio...and all that.

Sounds like the Captain was a hell of a rifleman.

Not saying it ain't so, but I can get a plaque to read anything I would like.

Loggah,......you ARE a lucky man! What a wonderful piece of history to own, I do envy you.

Steelhead, If i were to suspect anything it would be the distances!!! that is why i am trying to find out more about the capt.and the witnesses!! seems incredible to even see a person at that range ,no less kill two. I doub't he was so conceited as to have a plaque with false statements made up in a time of war!!what i was told members of his company did it for him!! Don

Neat rifle...great history.
That dog hair looks familiar.

Jed, I had to trade one of my 71 deluxes for it!! got it and a monkey ward savage model 29!! really liked the history and rairity trying to fing out more info, yep the dog bristles!! Don

Very nice rifle, Don, from what I hear that scopeChief was the cats As- back in the Day! John

When this snow disappears im going to try it out!! got to go to bushnell history on the scope. Don

I'm wonderin what the ballitics were. Say a hundred and eighty grainer leaving the muzzle at 2600 fps, was traveling at ______ upon impact, after having to elevate _____ ft.

Seems the target should have been able to side step the bullet.

Let me in, uphill shot, downhill shot , wind doping? so many variables ,i have to say skill and "LUCK" combined, rainbow trajectory(sp) for sure, probably as much energy as a 25-20 winchester left!! Don

I got a hunch we'll know before the thread expires!

I just posted on the optics forum to see if i can find any more info on the early scopechief, development! Don

Nick Stroebel's book "Old Rifle Scopes" indicates that the first Bushnell telescopes were marketed in the US in 1953. This was the Scopemaster line and consisted of a 2.5x, 4x and 6x. They had aluminum tubes, coated optics, internal adjustments, long eye relief and wide fields. In 1954, the ScopeChief line replaced the older series, and added 3x, 8x and 10x magnifications. The 3x9 variable was added in 1959.

well thats interesting!!! wonder if it was being devoleped earlier , or available to the U.S. Army?? this is why im trying to find out would be nice to locate one of the observers!! Don

Really a unique piece!

Very Nice.

BMT

Stock sure looks good for a gun thats travelled across the world and back. Nice rifle, but the stock looks to new for an old rifle like that.

Tis what a rifle looks like when someone takes care of thier stuff. Les

As far as i can tell everything is factory the horn forearm tip has a few small cracks in it and the varnish is checked a little, thats what a rifle looks like with a coat of "old west snake oil" is con it!!! Don

December 9 on a Korean hillside would have to qualify as harsh conditions, too!

- Tom

Are you thinking the engraving, jeweling and other work on the rifle is original from the factory?

I'm kinda' wondering if the rifle wasn't sporterized and customized after it returned home, and the current scope and mounts were added.


Casey

Alpinecrick, the blue book states for the 1952 mannlicher the stock was strengthed for the scope sidemount, i believe this rifle is original, there seems to be a problem with scope identifacition, the serial number on the plaque is the same as on the scope!! idont think this was the standard rifle capt.Aylward carried every day!its a mystery!!Don

How could anyone shoot that distance with a 3x9 scope,my hunting partners could even see a clear picture of target at 350 yds,just an orange blur.

crittergetter, the scope is nice!! but your right the distances are astounding!!! this is why i would like to find out more , and about the witnesses!! Don

I like to read stories like this and find them very interesting. I have a book, "Shots Fired In Anger" by LTC John George, where he used a pre war Model 70 Carbine in the Burma Campaign. He also used an '03 Springfield. I wouldn't think it should be too hard to prove the documentation on your rifle. Anyway, that's a very nice rig with a great story to go with it. Congrats...Bill.

Gen. E.W.Ridings is shown here: http://www.warfoto.com/3rdsociety8.htm#Generals


Thanks...Bill.

That's a special item. Congrats!

One thing to check is the range of vertical travel in that scope. Most scopes of that configuration won't provide the vertical travel of the reticle for 1900 yds. For that range, and considering any rifle, the scope needs to accommodate a huge range of travel. (By one calculation I did for an 06, 80 MOA adjustment for zero at 1900 yds. is req'd.) The base may provide a lot of that, but then the scope is a problem at closer ranges because it does not have the downward adjustment.

From what I understand, for most of the long range shooting of that era, the scopes had external adjustments like the Unertl.

Marine Sniper Rifle

Al fool, yes i havent checked it yet!! a friend of mine has one of those Unertl 8x scopes like new with the mts, and in the carrying tube , kinda neat it says marine right on the scope! Don

According to Hathcock, as told in "Marine Sniper", he and his boys in 'Nam did not worry much about vertical adjustments in the scope. They zeroed at 600 yds and did the rest with hold over or hold under if they took a really close shot like 300 yds. He mentions the common use of a Redfield 10X in 'Nam.

I would suspect that cranking turrets is a fairly new thing with military snipers.

Hold over had to be used when shooting 10-12 ft over your target.
It's uncanny how they could hit anything doing it that way. But they obviously did do it. When you raised your scope/rifle to shoot 12 feet over, I wonder if you could still see the target at the bottom of scope. The field of view on these scopes is not large, I'm sure. Even some of the best scopes/in the long range business couldn't accomodate this using turrets at the distance mentioned. Anyway it's an awesome find and would be a precious add to any collection.

First, nice rifle regardless of history.

My questions on the history: What were a General, Col, 2 Lt. Col's, doing all bunched up close enough to "witness" a Cpt, do this in a combat zone? 2 out of 3 shots find their mark for "kills" from over a mile with a 30-06, factory gun no less? They say he killed 2 snipers at that range? So these "snipers" were in "sniping mode", read as covered and concealed AND as in taking shots at this Cpt, the other brass, or some other troops...so he made these kill shots at over a mile hitting at least partially covered and concealed men...not men in the open and upright...or at least not the second one Id wager. Then there's the issues other have brought up about the scope and dating it.

I don't have any info to debunk it or ever part of it. I know there was a confirmed kill by an Army sniper recently in Iraq at some God awful stupid range with a .308, but I can't recall that exact range...there was a thread here about it...maybe someone can dig it up.

BTW, did anyone catch the Mythbuster's episode where they debunked the Carlos Hathcock yarn of shooting through another sniper's scope...seems the bullet wont make it through a scope (surprising to me). They used a 30-06 with ball ammo, and started at 100yds with good hits each time and no full penetration to the dummy behind the scope...finally they set up to take trajectory out of the mix...at about 10 feet...they destroyed a number of cheap scopes...but not one let the bullet pass all the way through, including the one at close range. So, there you have what appears to be one sniper myth busted. JFYI.

Jim, if I recall, they eventually managed to get penetration with an AP round. I didn't pay enough attention to remember much else. Seems like that show might have been a follow-up. Best, John

I don't know what your intent with this rifle is? If this rifle was used by an officer of the Third Infantry Division, the 3ID is located at Ft. Stewart, GA. Hinesville/Savannah. They have a museum of the Division's history, they may be willing to purchase the rifle or you could donate it. You can pull up the 3ID's website and see about it.

280,

I would not call that one a myth. Hathcock relates the story in his own words in "Marine Sniper" and names the witnesses he took back to the scene to prove what even he found quite amazing. It has been nearly twenty years since I read the book and I can no longer remember the names of the witnesses, but that scene does stand out quite well in my memory.

As far as the bullet used to make the aforementioned shot, I do not remember if the bullet was specifically mentioned for this shot. Hathcock did mention many times in the book that most of their ammo was handloaded in the "sniper hooch" and they preferred the use of Sierra Matchkings. He was able to identify one enemy female intelligence agent by the SMK they pulled from her spine.

A lot of people have written a great deal about Gunny Hathcock, and he has been called a lot of things. I do not think that liar has ever been included in that list, at least not by anyone who knew the man.

I saw the Mythbusters episode in question. It was painfully obvious that Jamie and partner had no knowledge of Hathcock, his tactics, or his equipment.

Never call anyone a liar, that is bad manners. I do however question such a claim as 1900+ yards with a 30-06. My ballistic tables don't go that far, but at 1200 yards the velocity of a 30-06 is under 1100 fps with a M.V. of 2900 fps with a 168 grain match bullet with a B.C. of .450. At that same range of 1200 yards the drop is 320 inches or 27 feet. Another 700+ yards, the velocity is diminished drastically and the drop increased exponentially.

I know embellishment isn't a new phenomenon, as people have always liked to tell a good story.

http://ferncanyonpress.com/tombston/wyatt/montana.shtml

This website shows a picture from the 1880's that claims Wyatt Earp, Doc Holiday, and a bunch of famous people from the "Wild West" were supposed to be all together at the same place at the same time, but historically it was an impossibility.

The gun is what it is, but the story I would say is suspect.

shrapnel, i think your ballistic tables would be optimum conditions ,i'm assuming he was probably shooting downhill and that would throw everything out of wack, energy and trajectory, who knows the whole thing could be luck ,or bunk!! wish i could get a hold of a witness, i believe the shooter is deceased! Don

Loggah:

Don't think you said where you got the rifle. Is it possible for you to trace back along the chain of ownership? You'd probably get a lot of questions answered that way.

- Tom

I bought it out of a gunshop, from what i know the capt. is deceased in Quincy Mass. Don

How come no one has referenced Billy Dixon at Adobe Walls yet? (Not meant to disparage or support anything, just surprised that it hadn't come up.) Best to all, John

Have read CH's book...just relating what Mythbusters did, and it was, in fact, to my surprise. The episode I recall was that they were unable to obtain full penetration of the scope, even at close range.

I'd take Gunny Hatchcock's word, any day.

For me, that's plenty enough to say that MythBusters, or anyone else that doubted him, had it wrong.

Yep billy shot a indian shaman at a little over a mile with a 50-90 sharps with a vernier tang sight, rainbow trajectory and it still killed the indian, whose special vest didn't work. Don

I guess your intentions are to keep this rifle? Did you consider the fact of donation or sell to the musuem of the US Army Division of which the shooter belonged?

I plan on keeping it for a while!! maybe when i get ready to part with it ill think about doing something like that, I did trade a 95% winchester 71 deluxe for it, and im not rich !!gun poor maybe. Don

Loggah,
Thanks for considering the donation, or sale, to a military musuem. Many veterans and current soldiers assigned to these divisions that have musuems, learn how those before them fought and survived in combat.

My father was in korea 1951-1952,20 months he was a platoon sgt. i havent even shown him this rifle yet, he doesnt have to many good memories of it. and i dont know if i want to remind him. Don

I understand completely. The events of war are with those who served on a daily basis. We hope the best that we can do is put them in little boxes in the back of our minds, and pray that they'll stay there.

Those who fought in Korea, dealt with the hell of not only battle, but weather and terrain, that in itself was as deadly as combat.

The pictures i saw ,mountains,snow, and not a living tree,everything all blown to hell!! Don

I saw the Myth busters episode, and they used an M1 Garand. I think the bullets weree regular ball, but might have been match ammo. Seems like I remember that CH used match ammo some of the time.

IIRC, the scopes used on Myth busters were the actual type of scope used by the sniper in CH's book, some type of low power Russian sniper scope the Russians used on the Mosin-Nagent sniper rifle.

In the televised tests, the bullet did not penetrate the scope. Frankly, I found it hard to believe. After all, there is only a few pieces of glass to impede the bullet.

Myth Busters received so much flack from their first test they decided to re-do the tests. The second time around, they used an authentic Russian PU3 sniper scope. I am not certain which bullet they tested, but I believe it may have been AP. In any event, they did get full penetration of the PU-3 scope and managed to kill Buster (the dummy).

Say, who's that guy the History Channel interviews about small arms? Runs a museum in DC that might be connected to the military. Beefy guy. Looks like he doesn't get out much. Seems to know his stuff, though.

He might be interested in this rifle and have some ideas about how to trace it's history.

- Tom

Tjm, I believe you are referring to Dr. William Atwater, curator of the U.S. Army Ordnance Museum at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds in Maryland. Yes, he certainly does know his stuff.

Capt. F. T Aylward was my father. You have my father's rifle. May I ask how you acquired it? Would it be possible for me to aquire it from you.
Sincerely, "The Colonel's Daughter"
PS. Daddy is now at Arlington Cemetery, buried with full military honors on a very cold day in February 1987.

Fantastic rifle and incredible find. Thanks for sharing a piece of history.

Thank you for your father's service. Best regards in aquiring the rifle. May I suggest you send the OP a PM directly.

Wow, this is going to get good now. Amazing that someone of lineage would show up here.

Welcome to the 'Fire. Please tell us more about your father and the story of this very unusual rifle.

I will second those thoughts.

The plot thickens. Promises to become one of the most interesting threads we have seen in years.

Found this obit, referencing a late Colonel F. Thomas Aylward.

http://hosting-24092.tributes.com/show/John-P.-Jack-Aylward-89789391

Jack was the beloved husband of the late Mary E. (Joyce) Aylward with whom he shared 33 years of marriage. Devoted father of JoAnne A. Pierce and her husband Chris L. Pierce of Melrose and J. Colleen Ingalls and her husband Tom A. Ingalls of Melrose. Dear brother of the late Colonel F. Thomas Aylward, Walter A. Aylward II, James R. Aylward, L. Michael Aylward, Alfred J. Aylward, Marie A. Aylward, Nancy A. Bergen and Jane Hersee. Cherished grandfather of Liam H. Pierce, Olivia L. Pierce, Aidan T. Ingalls, and Teagan E. Ingalls. Also survived by many nieces and nephews.

It certainly does.


Perhaps a different Mr. Aylward? Hmmmm...........

http://gravelocator.cem.va.gov/j2ee/servlet/NGL_v1

AYLWARD, FRANCIS THOMAS
AR United States Army
DATE OF BIRTH: 03/24/1918
DATE OF DEATH: 02/05/1987
BURIED AT: SECTION 60 SITE 567
ARLINGTON NATIONAL CEMETERY
C/O DIRECTOR ARLINGTON, VA 22211
(703) 607-8000

Glad you posted that, Big Drift.

http://www.koreanwar.org/html/units/7ir.htm?PageNum_Looking=2

Multiple entries....

http://www.warfoto.com/3rdpersonalsearch.htm

Link to the records keepers of the 3rd ID, they can help you on that end. Also confirms;

MG Eugene W. Ridings-May 1953 - Oct 1953

I can keep going as time permits if you wish I just have to run for now, good luck and please keep us informed as to how this develops.

The episode I saw resulted in penetrating the scope and "killing" the dummy.

WOW! I have been following this thread and that post sent chills down my spine. I hope this is real and not a joke or scam. I am inclined to believe you are being sincere and if that's the case I hope a positive outcome will be achieved between you and Loggah.

I will say that regardless of the outcome may all our veterans who have served us with honor and departed us in death rest peacefully in the the Lords' arms.

I'll be tuned in to this one for sure!

given a choice between mythbusters or reading from Hathcock's account- I'll believe Carlos

Has it occurred to anyone other than me that placing a decimal point one place to the left makes the whole story believable?

A group of field grade officers comes under fire from two enemy snipers , the officer most likely to be armed with a decent rifle , [the most junior] returns fire , killing both of the enemy.

The other officers have the plaque made in appreciation.

A "surveyed distance" usually has a decimal point.

True. And at a mile, most small arms are not much threat......but at 200.....

Interesting for sure.

3 things point to fraud or exaggeration.

1. Scope Chief wasn't even a dream then.

2. 2 out of 3 at 1900 yds with that rifle is defying some incredible odds.

3. Enough brass standing around to lead a corps.

Sorry, I just ain't buying it. Too incredible to believe without more proof. A lot more.

Has it dawned on anyone that if this really happened, we would know about it today? Just like we know about Billy's shot and Hathcock's exploits?

With that much brass around, the story would have certainly been circulated by verifiable sources had it taken place.

Yet the only evidence of this happening is a plaque on the stock of an old rifle...


JM

I pm,ed these people yesterday saying i would sell the rifle to them for what i had in it!!!!! i do believe it should go back to the family,but i'm not going to lose money on it, and the never replied to my PM, i don't know what all the scuttle but here is about!! Maybe they dont know what a PM is being new members. Don

Consider these explanations :

Enemy snipers - just like ours - slip into the enemy's CP area in search of hi-value targets like the group listed on the plaque.

The plaque is not installed on the rifle stock until AFTER the conflict , by which time the scope had been changed to the present one.

The decimal point being left out by the engraver explains the distance mistake.

No one has to be lying or intentionally misleading .A Captain of infantry taking out two enemy snipers at a couple hundred meters and maybe saving his boss's ass is an interesting story , but not one that would gain "legendary" status.

I think it is very believable in THAT light.

Take away the decimal point and it is horseshit.

"Has it dawned on anyone that if this really happened, we would know about it today? Just like we know about Billy's shot and Hathcock's exploits?"

My thoughts, exactly.

Evidently you and JM have me on "ignore".

I kind of doubt there was any decimal points ever involved i think yards is pretty well explained. Don

Good on you sir! I know damn sure and well that if it was my Fathers rifle I'd be following this thread 24/7 hoping for the kindness you've displayed.

Curdog,

That is certainly possible, but pretty unlikely.

Why would you put the serial no# of a scope on the plaque that was not on the rifle at the time of the shooting?

The only logical reason for doing this would be to fool someone and increase the value/authenticity of the package. The owner of the rifle certainly authorized this, so it tells me he is not above stretching the truth a little. maybe some freinds took the rifle and had it done for him...I don't know.

Not really buying the dot left off, especially since the person intentionally put the wrong scope on the plaque.

I also find the yardages of each kill suspect. Not only the distance, but the exact down to the yard distance between the 2 kills.

As it stands now, I think it's just a case of someone trying to impress his buddies back home.

Best,

JM

Ths story seems too good to be true, though I hope it is true.

Wonder if perhaps the fancy engraving and plaque were a gift to the good Captain, for his efforts saving the Maj. Gen.?

Seems to be this may have actually occured based on some innuendo I found in a summarized action report that I have requested a copy of. If this pans out I will post up the action report.

I've never been in the Army , but I was in the USMC from 1960 to '64.The scenario I offer certainly fits the military mentality.If officers wanted the distance surveyed , well , guess what every artillery outfit has in abundance!

The Captain may have done some fast and fancy 200 yard shooting that impressed the senior officers .Later , back in the States , one could have "borrowed " his rifle on some pretext and had the plaque made and installed.The engraver would not know that the scope was not the original.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion , but the idea that the Captain would falsify the event but use real names of senior officers is incredulous.

Soldiers actually know about rifles and their effective range.A veteran officer would NEVER try a stupid con like this one would be , if it were a con.

And I REALLY doubt that the Captain ever intended that his rifle be sold.

Yep.

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion.

That we can agree on. I just see no corroborating evidence that would point to this story as being true in it's present form.

I hope I'm wrong, hopefully something will surface that backs up the plaque.

JM

"I also find the yardages of each kill suspect. Not only the distance, but the exact down to the yard distance between the 2 kills."

John , if a Major General says ;"Get somebody to survey the range" , the report is going to be officially done.Have you EVER seen a survey report that "rounded off" to the nearest yard?

And inserting the decimal point puts the sniper and his spotter closer together like you would expect them to be.

Rather than trying to run a con , I can imagine the Captain having a laugh every time he showed off his rifle and explained the event.

Mine is a simple explanation and probably true.

Let me get this straight:

You sent a PM to the family yesterday.The family's first post is today.

How does THAT work?

Maybe he forgot a decimal....

I'd tend to believe Don made a simple typo over what's written on the stock of that rifle.

That is somewhat plausible.

Unlike the Captain , Don can straighten it out .

I hope Big Drift can find some evidence of this in the AA reports.

I'd like to be wrong on this.

I will take this opportunity to introduce Conspiracy #2.

Don is really boss lady and is trying to sucker one of us into buying a phony rifle.

Let's see if he offers a layaway plan before we jump to conclusions.

If she doesn't offer layaway there's no doubt she'd offer to have us come to her so she could kick our azz.

HOLY CRAP.

We need to buy this rifle from Loggah and get it to this soldier's kin, if this is for real. I'm good for a check.

WOW.

That's an honorable impulse and one which I share.However , the lady's first question needs an answer as well as far as I'm concerned.

That is exactly what I was thinking but I am not in any position to help. I am glad you brought it up.

That goes without saying. Working where I do (downtown Boston), I see dozens of hustles getting played out in a week's time. I was being literal when I said, 'if this is for real'. I was born at night, friend, but not last night. Heck, I spent a whole day checking out all the Nigerian diamond and gold mine folks real good before giving them my bank info...



We'll see, but something doesn't feel quite right already. At all. Hope I'm wrong.

The daughter is at least 65 years of age...father being a WWII veteran, DATE OF BIRTH: 03/24/1918, and perhaps not at the keyboard all the time

I have a feeling the good Captain could have possibly been a field artillery commander and took care of the snipers in that capacity

All I can say is those were the two 'unluckiest' snipers in the world!!

This is the best thread we have had at the fire in as long as I have been here. Guns, history, honor, shots fired.......all without politics and name calling. I am quote interested in hearing the whole story.

Shut up , you Obama lovin' yankee .

[feel more at home , now ?]

Just wondering, where did you come across the rifle? Can't imagine a family letting go of it?

lmao

Never mind, I came across the answer.

I'm kind of skeptical the colonel's daughter just happened by.

The OP on this thread is 3 1/2 YEARS old and contains her father's name.Likely some family member googled his name and this came up.

Got it, I wasn't observing of the dates, thanks for pulling my head out of my ass for me...it gets hot up there sometimes.

The family members pm'ed me ,before they ever replied to this thread,and i replied back.there are no Decimal points on the plaque, and i bought it at Abes Awsome Armaments, a gun shop in New Hampton,N.H. I thought it was a very unique rifle and with some history behind it. Seems most here think the details are wrong,and they could be,not sure,but it still is a very nice rifle regardless ,being a deluxe engraved mannlicher. Don

Loggah,

Any information you can give on how Abe's obtained the MS?

JM,

Regarding your conspiracy theory #2; Loggah is not Boss Lady.

The Aylward family so far has a long family tradition of military service and are from the New Hampshire area. There are several Aylward members currently serving as CG in the military with some tracing their careers to Delta Force.

Loggah if you can pass along some more names I would be happy to continue digging.

"there are no Decimal points on the plaque,".

I think we knew that.If the plaque had decimal points in the two ranges listed , no one would be questioning the authenticity of it.

Has the family told you how it got out of their possession?

I've met Don/Loggah, and he's as straight up as it gets. Everybody just needs to calm down, I'm sure this will work itself out.

I've meant no offense to Don.In fact , I've just been promoting the idea that the rifle he has is the real deal.

Since the original owner of the rifle has been dead for over 24 years , and Don has had it for over three years , there is no reason to believe that he has done anything wrong ........other than he hasn't tried to sell it out in Vegas where we coulda got one those expert guys to substantiate the claim made on the plaque.

All i know is Abe got it from some gun collector, I didn't cross examine him on it!! most of the guys here know i just dont buy guns to flip them !!!! Anyone on the "SAVAGE FORUM" will vouch for that!! Don

Yeah, we know it.. There's a big black hole of a vault in New Hampshire that 99's go into and never come out!

This is the Colonel's Daughter replying to all those who wrote about his rifle.
Yes, I really am the daughter of Francis Thomas Aylward. Daddy served in the Massachusetts National Guard before he was "federalized" after Pearl. The family is from Massachusetts, not New Hampshire. There were six brothers, five served in WWII, two served in Korea. Jack Aylward's obituary was posted. He was my father's youngest brother. He served in the Air Force in Korea as he was too young for WWII. they met for R&R in Japan. Very funny stories.
Anyway, it is so nice to read of all the interest.
Would it be possible for Loggah and I to correspond?
Yes, I am a new member and do not know the lingo, pm'ed??.

I do not wish to cheat anyone , nor do I believe anyone obtgained the reifle in not honest way. How it got out of family hands I do not know.
Best, Thorneater123
Loggah, could we correspond about the rifle

PM means Private Message
Near the top of your screen you will see a tab labeled "my stuff" that is a drop down menu.
When you have a private message there will be a flashing envelope next to "my stuff"

I just sent a P.M. ,click on the flashing envelope,and leave a message. Don

just read the whole thread ,interesting ,the plot thickins,

Don is one of the most upstanding guys on the forum,
norm

I read a small book about an early Texas traveler that was in San Antonio a year or so after the fall of the Alamo. He reported a Mex came into the cantina and showed him a rifle,broke at the wrist. It had a plaque on the barrel that said something like " Presented to D. Crockett from a graetful nation " Or some such. To find that rifle would be like finding the "Lost Ark", to Texans.

Custer's .50-70 Sporter is still out there somewhere, too.

GTC

His handguns also. Wern't they old English Wellby's. They didn't take his hair though.

And then there is Lee 24's model 70............

I had heard they were Merwyn & Hulberts, but am no particular scholar on the event.

The forensic mapping of the site, with Metal Detectors and GPS Data entry is certainly worth a look,....

Regarding this fine Manlicher rifle's performance history, I'm a student of the "Missing Decimal Point Theory",.....Can't buy the un-punctuated ranges called out ONCE, much less TWICE,...no way.

GTC

Interesting turn of events.

First and formost, what a great family, thanks to the family for their ( her) kin's service.

I suspect the plaque must be some form of an inside Joke, gun looks way to "special" to be a sniper rifle,would love to hear any other Non-US made sniper rifle stories of their use, and the scope seems about 10 years newer than 1952.


I would love for the plaque to be true, but suspect otherwise.

Allen

Interesting thread. Billy Dixon took the hostile off the horse at a Army surveyed 1538 yds with a Big fifty sharps. This has been questioned many times over the years and is still questioned today, he admitted in a book by his wife that it was a scratch shot and just luck. It is well known fact that he was a noted marksman and later a Medal of Honor winner from action in"The Buffalo Wallow fight". As a matter of interest to all those who doubt LR possibilities, 2-3 years back at the Billy Dixon shoot in Utah a Black Powder event celebrating the Dixon shot.They shoot at a metal silhouette of a hostile on a horse (full size) at a surveyed 1538 yds to replicate Dixon's famous shot. Jim Terry of Rawlins, Wyo. left the crowd speechless after going 5/6 with a 45-110 using BP and vernier tang sight. Going 1900+ yds with an 30-06 would be tough to do without the help of a 30 MOA rail base but there are other possibilities too. Magnum Man

That leaves me speechless too (almost).

Now matter how old that crap gets, I still laugh.

Not knowing how the rifle got outside the family? Where there are teenagers, stuff like this will happen.

My Browning Hi-Power Canadian Ingleise(sp) has the ladder sites that allow me to shoot 500metres IIRC. 9mm. I haven't actually tried it yet, but why would it be on there if it ain't so? :]

It'll probably get a bullet somewhere around 500 meters. Somewhere.

Hard for me to believe too, but I always heard that the better you were the luckier you got.

Regardless of who gets the rifle , I think the decimal points should be inserted in both ranges.The Captain's memory doesn't deserve the ridicule prompted by the obvious error on the part of the engraver.

The engraving lists the yards they were killed at, not the miles. I don't think they gave the engraver instructions to engrave 193.8 yards, it was intentionally 1938. You may not believe it, but that's what it's meant to be.

Do you have inside information you haven't divulged?

Loggah, have you found any more info from the action report you can share (re: big drift), and more importantly have you taken the rifle to the range yet?

curdog, no.. but a decimal point into yards? Making them both under 200 yard shots? Not believable to me that a plaque was made with 3 witnesses listed for 2 confirmed kills under 200 yards.

The owner had the rifle for decades, if it had needed to be corrected it would have been.

I don't know if you've read the whole thread and I'm not going to repost everything I've offered in support of the missing decimal point idea.Just these two things should suffice:

Have you ever seen a survey report that rounded off to yards?

Would a career Army Officer make a fantastic claim listing his superior officers as witnesses ?

A threat to four High Value targets was neutralized because a Captain had the foresight to equip himself with a superior firearm.In gratitude , one or all of the "Targets" had this plaque made at some later time.

Anytime you have a story where the "words don't fit the picture" and you can make one minor change and have everything make sense,that "change" is very probably correcting an error in the story.

To put it another way , the simplest explanation that takes account of all the facts is probably the correct one.

I've read the thread, and the thought of somebody changing that plaque after 50 years to match what they THINK is right disturbs me greatly.

Go here and read what his men thought of him:

http://www.koreanwar.org/html/units/7ir.htm?PageNum_Looking=2

1) Comments: I have been looking for anyone knowing Capt. Francis T Aylward(The Screaming Eagle-WWII combat comission Veteran).
The best commanding Officer you could ever serve under. Korea 1950-52

2) Comments: Looking for anyone in the 3rd Battalion who may have served under Capt. Francis T Aylward(The Screaming Eagle). He left the Mortar Co. for a line Co. I believe it was I co. Best commanding Officer anyone would be proud to have serverd under(unless you were a screw-up).
I'd appreciate any input you may have.

3) Comments: Captain Aylward is not in the 3rd Div. book Korea 1950-1953. He was a WWII combat comm. and had the Nickname "Screaming Eagle". Best officer I ever served under. If anyone has any info on him I would appreciate hearing from you.


Now tell me that man intentionally left incorrect data on the plaque. Whether it's true or false, that plaque needs to be left alone.

Jmho.

Rory, Thats the way i read it to, i assume the guy in the engineering co.measured the ranges,just make sense, I still haven't got an answer from the family to any of my p.m.s, cant quite figure that out !!!!! Don

Guys, getting copies of an AAR from the Korean war is difficult as it is. Them finding one specific incident in the archives is a long shot but it is being looked into.

That's exactly the kind of officer I assumed him to be.And exactly why he should not be made the subject of ridicule with no chance to defend himself.

We don't know that the plaque was ever seen by him.It really looks like it was made to be placed under the rifle in a display case , and was inserted into the stock later.The mistake with regard to the scope is evidence that the Captain was not the originator of the plaque data.

I can believe that TWO shots of legendary status were witnessed by THREE fellow officers and the details were kept quiet for 60 years.Or;

I can believe the Captain betrayed his own SELF and became a fraud and in the process betrayed his superior officers by making them witnesses of a non-event.Or;

I can accept that a SECOND mistake - the scope being the first- was made in recording the event onto a plaque.

The addition of the decimal points reconciles ALL the reasonable objections to the validity of the witnesses "testimony".It also makes credible the statement that the distances were SURVEYED.

Leave the plaque alone. To change it would debase a significant artifact. I frankly can easily believe that the shots were made at the distances stated.

Some of you have no frame of reference for what is possible, even doable on a regular basis with a good rifle at long range by a man who knows how to use it. Here is a case in point. As has already been pointed out, Jim Terry went 5 out of 6 on a hostile target at 1538 yards with a 45-110 Sharps a while back. A couple of you had trouble believing or accepting that, thinking it was luck.

Here is your reality check. I know Jim Terry, have known him for years, and have competed with him many times. Yes, he hit the hostile 5/6. But there were several other shooters at that match that went four out of six, and didn't win. While Jimbo is one of the better shots at that game, there are a lot of other guys that did not find what he did to be astounding. They do the same thing on a regular basis.

You may be surprised to find out that there is an annual match held on the Wasserburger Ranch outside of Lusk, Wyoming where the targets are set at a surveyed mile from the firing line. The match is shot with buffalo rifles, mainly Sharps, using IRON SIGHTS. Jim Terry and a number of other guys not only shoot there, they regularly shoot and hit at distances that many of you can't comprehend.

My hunting rifle is a Sharps, equipped with open iron sights. No scope. I PRACTICE on a regular basis by shooting gallon milk jugs filled with water at 400 and 500 yards several times a week. A man that truly knows his rifle and knows how to use it can successfully engage targets at ranges others do not believe, and even after they see it they will call it a lucky shot. It's not always luck, trust me.

Your "evidence" for leaving the plaque as is would be pertinent if the topic was Jim Terry , Buffalo rifles , etc.

It's not.

The fact that a certain thing is done under one set of circumstances doesn't make it more probable under a totally different set of circumstances.

For instance ;How likely is it that the Captain could call to mind in a stressful situation [assuming he knew] the amount of holdover required for a 30 06 at the extreme distances on the plaque.?

How likely is it that he doped the wind exactly right two out of three shots?

The Captain's capabilities with a rifle were probably in line with mine and a host of other 'fire members.

Killing two of the enemy with three shots at around 200 yards would not be remarkable if they would be still and not shoot back.

I doubt that was the situation.

I doubt the ranges were wrong. An artillery unit could easily survey the distances. Shots of two hundred yards would have hardly been worth remarking about and would have been far more likely to have been engaged by the whole outfit, a machine gun, or a mortar than a lone rifleman.

The only thing I find a little dubious is calling the enemy KIA "snipers". I can see a situation where the generals were visiting the line and someone may have remarked about the CPT being a fine shot and his unusual rifle that he brought from home. Then coincidentally and fortuitously, some enemy became visible at those extreme ranges and one of the generals said something like "Captain, why don't you have a go at some of those guys with that fancy rifle of your."

"It's not always luck, trust me."

In this particularly WILD flight of ballistic fantasy (the two shots @ 1900 + with an' '06 Sporter)

LUCK would have to factor in.........,

e.g. VERY bad luck on the part of the two Norks.

GTC

The silver plate inlaid in the stock reads:

9 December 52 at Yok Kok Chon Korea with
MS Rifle 16333 and Bnl Scope 70579
Capt. F. T. Aylward fired 3 rounds, killed 2 snipers at
ranges surveyed at 1938 and 1942 yards.
Observed by
E. W. Ridings Maj. Gen. CG3 US Inf. Div.
J. F. Franklin Jr. Col. C of S,
H. Barber Lt. Col. Div. Engr.
Kim Hak Yang Lt. Col. Inf. Army of ROK.

So , FOUR[counting the Korean]high ranking officers don't know what an enemy sniper is?

Maybe not as much a flight of ballistic fancy as one would imagine. There were probably several 1919 machine guns on the line firing 30-06 with tracers mixed in every fifth round. A guy standing out there and watching those tracers arc over day after day at targets on distant hillsides would have a FAR greater appreciation of how high to aim and would be able to make a FAR more educated guess of where to aim than your average guy.

In the later stages, Korea was like WW I. Guys in trenches looking over the same terrain day after day.

Nope, just a little artistic license as a couple of guys with rifles became "snipers".

If the ranges as stated are correct and the shots were witnessed as stated , this event would not just now be coming to light.

Argue with that statement.

Just for the record , your military experience is............?

I always say, fear the man with one rifle.

With guys like Roy Dunlap, Wm. Brophy, Col. Whelen, Elmer, and all the rest around and very actively writing,... you can be DAMNED sure one of them would have heard about this .

GTC

Indeed, nice engraving.

CPT FA, MLRS.

Remember, snipers have been looked at as assasins within armys for many, many years.
Not "sporting " or fighting in a manly, brave way.
So to call the KIA "snipers" meant it was ok, sniper vs sniper.
Not this sniper vs officer or fighting man.

So I guess , in your scenario ,both sides agree to "timeout" and the bodies of the two enemy soldiers are left in place while the distances are surveyed?

No, more likely there was a landmark of a rock or a destroyed piece of equipment or something like that used later. Or, perhaps, the rotting corpses were left there.

It could even be that the CPT had been taking long range pot shots for weeks at a rock or burned out tank or something out there and those two guys had the misfortune of showing up next to it.

One more thing first thing done in any position was to lay out fields of fire, set up aiming stakes, and register the mortars and the like. Ranges were pretty well known and it may be that that those North Koreans were next to something that had already registered and therefore, the CPT would have known the range pretty close before making the shot.

Not to mention he probably had a topo map and and a protracter and would have been able to estimate the range very closely before making the shot.

In fact, the hardest thing for me to believe about the whole incident is not the range, but the fact that two enemy would be in the open to get shot. Both sides learned to stay down pretty quick and not show anything as that anybody out in the open would bring in artillery. Americans have always been notorious for firing a whole battery at one or two poor saps caught out in the open. So, the only thing I find hard to believe is that two poor saps would have been caught out in the open. They must have been replacements.

I'm not going to read the whole thread again, so maybe this has been mentioned. MG Ridings was the CG in December of 52. He became CG in May of 53 until October of 53.

Since it was winter, it is unlikely that they simply misremembered the months because that would be a difficult mistake to make. More likely that Ridings was there (if it happened) but he was Deputy CG at that point and later when the plaque was made, the mistake was made in calling him CG.

And they were able to differentiate between 1938 and 1942 yards using a nearby object as a reference?

To inject a little levity into the thread:

We had a new 2nd Lt. who joined our outfit in Okinawa [3rd 155 Howitzer Battery-attached to 12th Marine Reg.]in 1961.During our first training exercise that included him , he watched as the aiming stakes were put out.

He asked Buck Sgt.[we still had 'em back then , a Sgt E4]Lacey ;"How do you see them at night?"

Lacey never missed a beat;"At night , we take a fix on the stars."

"OH, I should have thought of that",replied the Lt!

Now, don't forget to answer my question!

Sure, you survey one and then go, "That looks about like five yards."

The bigger problem is that Riding wasn't CG of 3rd ID in December of 52 and he wasn't deputy either. He was the Deputy CG of 31st division at that point.

BS nothing but BS

Where does it say that that was the rifle that made the shoot. Could it be the rifle was purchased after the fact and presented to the Capt to commemorate the Shots. I don't remember ever hearing of the military buying high dollar custom German Firearms for military issue. At that point in time the army issued either highly modified Springfield or Remington 30/06s for sniper work. That in the fact that the scope mounted and the brass placard on the rifle leads me to believe the rifle was a presentation rifle not an actual Sniper Rifle.

Even as a presentation rifle it still has significant historical value in it's self.

I think Archie hit it dead on

A presentation rifle makes a lot of sense. On the other hand, soldiers were allowed to bring private firearms back then as well, particularly officers.

Also keep in mind that in post war Germany where most of the Army was stationed between WW II and Korea, it isn't much of an exaggeration to say that a high dollar custom German rifle could have probably have been purchased for the price of a couple of cartons of cigarrettes. The ONLY customers available to a German gunsmith would have been GIs.

But either as a presentation rifle made in the 50s after the war, or as a rifle taken by an officer to Korea, the fact that it was German and seemingly custom made fits with what would have been available to Army officers at the time.

"If the ranges as stated are correct and the shots were witnessed as stated , this event would not just now be coming to light.

Argue with that statement."

Nobody seems to want to address this.It is the strongest argument for the "missing decimal point" theory.

As far as this particular rifle being different from the one that made the shot , I'm thinking Loggah matched the ser. no. on the plaque with the one on the rifle.But maybe he didn't.

I'm surprised by the number of posters who so readily accept two hits out of three shots at a one mile range with ANY rifle,let alone an '06.Overlooking the fact that the second guy stays within 5 yards of the dead guy.

It is extremely relevant that both the hits resulted in mortal wounds if the range is indeed over a mile.

If the range is 200 yards , it becomes more believable by several orders of magnitude.

Decimal points are left out or misplaced fairly often.A group of very senior U S Army officers running a scam rates very low on the probability scale - especially with no money involved!

The plaque s/n and the rifle s/n are the same!! well if nothing else it gives you guys something to think and argue about, instead of the A,B,C,s of Bra size !!!!!!!!! .Don

There was arguing on that thread?

It becomes believable to the point of being unremarkable and certainly not worthy of having a plaque made about it.

Listing 3 witnesses for 200 yard shots isn't even remotely close to believable to me.

That too.

Unless you start from the premise that it was remarkable for something other than the range of the shots.Several pages ago ,I said :

Has it occurred to anyone other than me that placing a decimal point one place to the left makes the whole story believable?

A group of field grade officers comes under fire from two enemy snipers , the officer most likely to be armed with a decent rifle , [the most junior] returns fire , killing both of the enemy.

The other officers have the plaque made in appreciation.

A "surveyed distance" usually has a decimal point.

And then this:

I've never been in the Army , but I was in the USMC from 1960 to '64.The scenario I offer certainly fits the military mentality.If officers wanted the distance surveyed , well , guess what every artillery outfit has in abundance!

The Captain may have done some fast and fancy 200 yard shooting that impressed the senior officers .Later , back in the States , one could have "borrowed " his rifle on some pretext and had the plaque made and installed.The engraver would not know that the scope was not the original.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion , but the idea that the Captain would falsify the event but use real names of senior officers is incredulous.

Soldiers actually know about rifles and their effective range.A veteran officer would NEVER try a stupid con like this one would be , if it were a con.

And I REALLY doubt that the Captain ever intended that his rifle be sold ."

The idea that the Captain was a sniper is not worth consideration.

The idea that a two star and a light colonel don't know exactly what an enemy sniper is , is not worth consideration.

Mine is the much stronger argument , and that is the best resolution available since none of us were there , and we are limited to the info on the plaque.

If someone had shot Booth from a distance of 15 feet an instant before he could pull the trigger on Lincoln , it would have been a REMARKABLE shot.

Of course, in your scenario, it would also require one of those senior officers who had the rifle made, to not only get the date wrong, but say that he was the CG of 3rd ID a full six months before he actually was.

And, of course, the idea that a 2 star and his entourage would expose himself to enemy snipers only 200 yards away is ridiculous as well. And futher, it is idiotic to assume that if fired upon from that distance, that the snipers would be engaged by a CPT with a nonregulation rifle instead of any number of other weapons on the line from heavy machine guns to mortars.

And finally, if fired upon at such close range by not just one but TWO snipers, then the North Koreans must truly have had the most incompetent snipers in the history of the world to have two of them that missed a chip shot on a two star general.

A picture of a pretty typical position by that stage in the Korean War:

1919 position

Curdog, they didn't get any smarter. I had two LT's come up to me one night, 1988 bouts in the Philippines because as the surveyor I could settle an argument. Was that star the north star?
I offered night survey classes because it was something I enjoyed and it got me out of doing stuff I did not enjoy so much, did these collage grads come to a nighttime survey class, nope.
And they were pointing STRAIGHT UP to Sirius, figuring hell it was the brightest. So I asked them to use that star and walk north. I'm sure this stuff got mentioned in OCS.

The one plausible fact missed.... maybe one Sniper was standing behind the other by 5 yards, and the "special" ammo to go with the "special" rifle... Ahem, Overpenetrated.


Otherwise the scenario of 2 idiots at nearly the same distance seems as unbelievable as most of the rest of the plaque.


Yea, I suspect this feat would have been written down in more places than on a plaque.


Someone mentioned earlier comments about said shooter, when I googled his name I got a bunch of threads from relatives looking for information and posting good things about our war hero, not comments from people who actually served under him????


Again stated, the assembly of such prominent people who witnessed this is odd, I would believe "witnessed by private xx and yy over a group of high ranking men, to be beleivable or actually intended to be believed by anyone not there.


Still cool gun, and thanking the family.

Allen

You have more faith in google and fifties era military records than is justified.

I doubt any of Hathcock's targets "knowingly" exposed themselves to him.

You continually make reference to "the line" when there is no evidence that the event occurred anywhere close to the "line".

There is a world of difference between a "trained sniper" and an ordinary soldier with his ordinary equipment who takes on the role.

Do you have an explanation for the plaque on the rifle that satisfies you?

You said:
"I'm not going to read the whole thread again, so maybe this has been mentioned. MG Ridings was the CG in December of 52. He became CG in May of 53 until October of 53."

I never did figure THAT out.

I make reference to "the line" because I know my history. By that stage in the war, all positions were held on a line more or less. The war was a stalemate. The Americans occupied a trench line on the military crest of one hill while across the valley the North Koreans and the Chinese occupied the military crest of another. Periodically, there would be attacks and maybe, after a battle the line might move by a hill or two, but it wasn't much different than WW I by that point. It was pretty much trench warfare with each side sending out patrols. But the line was static along the MLR by that point and all positions were fortified.

So, my scenario is that the generals visited the line. They walked around the trenches and while in the company CP they looked over the scene. And sometime during that visit the Captain made his shot on a couple of enemy across the valley who were in positions that the he and his company had been looking at for weeks, if not longer. Heck, the Captain may have even been taking pot shots for weeks as well.

He was "not" the CG in December of 52. He didn't become CG until May of 53. Prior to that he was Deputy CG of the 31st Infantry Division.

The plaque has five names and all are officers.Five won't fit in one M38 Jeep and officers don't drive themselves , so there were certainly enlisted guys around.

A scout/sniper team being only five feet apart seems strange to you?

So all four officers who witnessed the shots were watching from a mile off,saw the two hits and knew the enemy soldiers were killed dead.And they knew the enemy soldiers were "snipers" rather than regular soldiers.

And in your study of history of the Korean War , did you happen to run across any rifle kills at distances extreme enough to be thought worthy of mention? What would have been considered an extreme distance for a kill with a 30 cal. rifle?

You rely on your imagination and google a little more than is convincing to me.I'm going to get ready to go watch my Grandson's football game.

I don't know whether it's true or not, but I do know that by that point in the war, there would have been almost no place where the lines were as close as 200 yards. Secondly, I can see few situations where a plaque would have been necessary to commemorate a shot that anyone could have made. But if one had been made in the situation you postulated (that of of the CPT saving their arses) I would have expected it to say something along the lines of "In gratitude for..." instead of saying "witnessed by..." because quite frankly, no one needs to name witnesses to verify a couple of two hundred yard shots.

It was pretty easy to see across a valley to a ridge denuded of vegetation by artillery fire by that point in the war. And what is one thing that generals who come to look over the lines usually have with them? That's right binoculars. So, I imagine they could see the enemy pretty well. And if those enemy happened to be carrying long Moisens, then they called them "snipers".

As for the rest, I don't know. I'm sure there were lots of noteworthy things that happened in Korea that we've never heard of. Then again, it could all be a hoax. We have no idea who created the plaque. There is one thing on the plaque that is demonstrably false. MG Ridings was not CG of 3rd ID in December of 1952. So, that fact alone has to throw the whole thing into some doubt no matter which version of events you prefer.

I don't believe the Captain killed two snipers with three shots at over a mile with a 30 06.

I don't believe men of the caliber named on the plaque were party to a hoax.

Unlike some of you , I HAVE missed targets the size of a man's torso [they were KILL shots remember] at 200 yards.

With a scope like the Captain had , I can't see a man at a mile , much less kill him.

Y'all are hard to impress.You make mile away shots sound routine.

With a 30 06.

Who said any of them ever even saw the rifle? I would expect that if any of those men were party to the plaque they would have at least known that Eugene Ridings was not CG of 3rd ID in December 1952.

And, I hate to break it to you, but there may have been some obscure Army captain in 1952 who was a better shot than you are.

The sniper story in the OP ! I call BS. Someone is making money from inflating the value of that rifle and people/s are falling for it.

That is what I have to believe as well. Someone who knew a enough to get the names right, but not enough to avoid making a critical mistake like naming Ridings the CG six months before he took command.

Hold on now,

I routinely make 2/3 hits at over a mile with a 30-06 and a scope that won't be out for another 6 years.

Just like this story, no one has ever heard of me doing this and it's never been reported, even though I have a plaque on the rifle with Congressmen and Senators listed as witnesses.

You will just have to take my word for it.

And I might very well be a better shot than you .Which has just as much relevance to the thread topic as your statement.Which is to say;NONE.

You have been all over the place with your suppositions.You have gone from proposing that he made the "mileaway" shot from an entrenchment to now claiming that he didn't make the shot and someone [????] cooked up the story to inflate the value of the rifle.

And you attach a lot more significance to what google says about Gen Riddings' duty station than is warranted.

I'm done.
BTW,I left the grandson's game at the end of the third quarter with his team ahead 55-0.

Sharpsguy

"Some of you have no frame of reference for what is possible, even doable on a regular basis with a good rifle at long range by a man who knows how to use it."

Man....you just ain't a bumping ya gums there my friend! Most....don't have a friggin clue!!

Look you BP guys, the simple FACT of the matter is that a well tuned, heavy BPCR running the right load will blow the DOORS off of an '06 (Particularly with the only AMMO that was available, at the time)....at the ranges DISCUSSED,.....

and you're not the only two here that understand that, or would BET on that.

GTC

Well then he better get busy and sell the durn thing already.Its been three years now,and it aint sold yet.

I know shooters measure distances in yards, but the plaque says "surveyed" distance. I'm not a surveyor, but I do deal with surveys daily for work, and I don't remember ever reading a surveyed distance given in yards. Feet, varas, rods, chains, etc., not yards. 1950 feet = 650 yards, a bit more believable to me. Maybe the plaque makers used the wrong measure of distance. But who knows??

An interesting hypothesis.

What do you think?

As stated, I'm no surveyor, and I am damn sure not a sniper, but two hits out of three shots from over a mile with that rifle setup seems pretty far fetched to me. Add in the fact that the targets were humans, and as snipers would (should) have been in deep concealment, it's even more unbelievable. Sniper #2 would have had to have been a complete dumbass if he wasn't on the move after seeing #1 get popped, so more difficulty. The feat seems much more reasonable and believable if the distance was 1950 feet, and not yards. Two 650 yard shots I can buy.

Not really, the only thing I completely rule out is the assisine theory that the shot was less than two hundred yards, other than that, I'm pretty much open to anything. However, on balance, given the difficulty of the alleged shot, the fact that it is an unusual rifle that would have been unlikely (not impossible) to be at the front, the scope not even being manufactured in 1952, and the getting the date or the CG wrong, I would come down on the side of it not happening at all.

All I can say in response to your assertion that I rely too heavily on googled records is to say that I would assume that the Association of the Third Infantry Division which has a complete list of commanding generals and their dates of command from the formation of the division to the present day would know when Eugune Ridings was their commanding general. Records from a mere 60 years ago are pretty easy to verify.

I would agree with that in general, but artillery surveying is done in meters. In the early 1950s, it was yards. So, if they got the artillery guys to survey it, it probably would have been done in yards in 1952.

To Calhoun:
It was good to put the link in your message. I'm sure others will connect with long lost pals using it.
I did contact a man who was looking for FTA..the screaming eagle.. through a korean war 7th inf. site.
It is quite enlightening to read the intelligent commentary.

Glad to do it. I hope you can connect with some of the guys who served under your father and get some good stories and information from them.

Thanks for explaining that, I didn't think about the artillery measuring in meters. Blows my theory Not the first time.

thorneater:

A lot of us here are just a bunch of roughneck kids. I hope you'll take that "intelligent commentary" with a grain of salt, and understand that most of us just want to know more about your dad and the story behind the rifle.

And here you come along (and you are indeed so very welcome here) and give us just a leetle bit of information, and, like the roughneck kids that we are, we want to know MORE.

And, of course, when we don't get what we want immediately, we start making up our own stories, like kids will.

It's a nuisance, sometimes, but I hope you'll forgive us our trespasses.

And, of course, tell us more.

Do I understand correctly that your father received his battlefield commission directly from George Patton? That by itself is a great story.

- Tom

Good post Tom.


A bucket of icewater seems appropriate to get this back on topic vs who shot Kennedy.

Allen

David Bushnell started his company about 1950. I am curious about this rifle in that the use personal firearms were generally forbidden by the military and, engraved MS firearms were definitely not GI.

Any comments?

djs:

Over the years, I've talked to a number of combat veterans of Korea, who told me of some things they did and had that were not G.I.

Lots of field expediency, they told me.

I wasn't there, of course.

The plaque on the rifle is totally consistent with what Tom Aylward told me. I was his supervisor when he passed away (about 1993?).

Welcome to the 'fire.

Tom Aylward told me personally that he had made these shots. He said that snipers had been bothering him (and those around him I assume) for weeks. He never mentioned the plaque, but did tell of this event. I expect that he offered to take the shots, perhaps to impress t he brass visiting at that time. Tom was certainly very confident.

I only knew Tom from about 1980 to his passing about 1993.

Truth is often stranger than fiction. This thread is one of the more interesting threads that has ever appeared on the 'fire.

Has any more information about this rifle and its story come to light in the last four years?

It would be nice to finally get the actual, confirmed "true" story.

And if you know a Korean War veteran, thank him for his service. My 83-yr-old former Marine neighbor, Tommy, has some serious stories. He was very fortunate to survive his time in Korea.

One story: With the slope in front of them littered with dead enemy, their small unit was almost completely out of ammo as the communist soldiers prepared for another assault. Their only hope was for the low, cloudy weather to break so that some air support could get in to hit the enemy.

The assault had started, when two Marine Corsairs roared in under the low clouds at about two hundred feet with guns blazing, chewing up the enemy position in front of them. He was out of ammo when hot .50 caliber cases fell onto the ground around him from the Corsairs overhead. He warmed his hands with the warm cases, a welcome relief in the bitter cold.

The assault was stopped. A couple of hours later the clouds broke and some Australian planes came in and had at the enemy for awhile, allowing what remained of his unit to take their dead and wounded back to a more secure position.

Tommy told me this story shortly after we first met, when he found out I was a Marine pilot. He got a little emotional when he told me the story, saying, "Two Marine Corps pilots saved my life".

I think everyone is overlooking one important fact on this rifle. It's not the rifle that made the shots, it's a presentation rifle made after the shots in honor of luetenants (sp) remarkable feat. It doesn't say it's the actual rifle that made those shots.

Wiki says Bushnell started optic sales in 1948. Just a guess but the rifle, if the same one used, may have been embellished after the fact. No doubt the plaque came later. Still an interesting piece...