Excerpt: Every death of a police officer "in the line of duty" is solemnly memorialized and carefully tabulated. However, there is no official record kept of civilians who are unjustly killed or otherwise brutalized by police.
Each encounter between the police and innocent civilians is a potentially deadly experience for the latter. Thus the real question is not "Why do innocent people flee from the police?" but rather, "What rational person would submit to the police if he had any reasonable hope of eluding or resisting them?"
Every time I've read one of Barak's bleeding heart self serving cries of persecution I visualize him driving around in one of these wondering why he keeps gettin pulled over......
Living proof that one bias is NOT necessarily as valid as another.
Running from a cop is one of the surest ways in the world to guarantee to antagonize him. Don't expect chocolates and roses when he catches you.
I know we all live in a society together and you shouldn't run from cops, you need to stand up and prove your innocence when accused of a crime and...hey, wait a minute.
Regardless of all the bs, if a person hasn't done anything wrong and they flee from the police and end up getting hurt, IMO it is on the cops and not them.
Good question. I avoid cops unless I know them personally or have some direct business with them. It's just common sense.
Elkhunter, I have to agree with Mr. younger! And feel exactly the same way he does about law enforcement - and I've never had worse than a speeding ticket.
At one of my club's gun shows this weekend, I ran into two former cops - I didn't know used to be cops!
One fellow said he gave up being a cop #18-82 because he realized he didn't have the temperament for it (broke a teenager's arm cuffing him and taking the kid into custody). Told me himself he thought "he'd get into serious (legal) trouble eventually .....
The other fellow without me specifically asking about the points that were mentioned told me that there's a huge difference between cops of yesteryear who took great pride in their "uniforms and leathers" versus the cops who dawn web gear and fatgues to go on duty.
Several things were suddenly more clear to about today's cops than previously.
Used to be a time a cop welcomed "the break" (relaxed pace) to help an old lady find a lost dog or cat, versus busting a ganger's arse.
YES, times have indeed changed since the 60's, 70's and 80's - but I don't want to deal with any cops unless I personally know them and know those individuals love and revere the Constitution as much as I do.
Otherwise I keep my nose clean and stay alert of the bad and good around me, and live as goodly as i can without any nosy neighbors or cops looking over my shoulder!
I have had very few encounters with LEO's but none were pleasant and I cooperate completely. But one lied to me and it cost me a lot of money and time in court to prove my innocence. never trust a LEO as they only want to make a case.
Are you for real? Many of my FRIENDS are LEO. Sorry you live in a state of confusion. You have my sympathies.....
I think the author of that article has a point. Encounters with cops are very dangerous, even if you're an upstanding non-criminal citizen.
A couple of months ago, I was taking my evening constitutional in my own neighborhood, a practice of mine for many years, and I was rushed by four occupants of two police squad cars, and quickly surrounded and approached. Immediately, I imagined myself being slammed to the ground, possibly being seriously injured, because these guys had me mistaken for someone else. Didn't happen that way (they were gentlemen), but that could be because I reacted in just exactly the right way to save myself from said injuries. Had I deviated in any degree from the behavior pattern that I displayed that night, perhaps allowing fear to control my behavior rather than my rational mind, I may well have been seriously injured, or even killed.
I have had very few encounters with LEO's but none were pleasant and I cooperate completely. But one lied to me and it cost me a lot of money and time in court to prove my innocence. never trust a LEO as they only want to make a case.
the po po have never understood the anxiety they cause in the average Citizen when there is an 'interface' between cop and Citizen. On the other hand, maybe they do...........
the po po have never understood the anxiety they cause in the average Citizen when there is an 'interface' between cop and Citizen. On the other hand, maybe they do...........
Sure...we all have, probably. But, when you're a responsible, mature, working and family man, the things we did as kids don't work anymore. When I'm confronted by police, the first thought that comes into my mind is how I'm going to humor/BS my way out of this one. I never have a first thought of looking for a place to run because I'm afraid I'll be killed.Not even a similar 2nd,3rd or 4th thought. Hence, the over-active, silly imagination comment.
The scant few times I've had to interact with the law, all went down pretty innocuously.
I think I said "sir" a few times, communicated the presence of my concealed weapon (per NC law), and a few other pleasantries.
Now, the flipside. During my tenure behind the badge, not one person that ran from me was found to be innocent upon apprehension. (none that is). Some of them we're very silly infractions that I probably wouldn't have ticketed or arrested to start with.
Seems to me more like behavior bashing than "cop bashing".
As was posted earlier police motives and behavior are shifting. Public safety and politeness was once at the forefront of the thinking but now, often as not, gettting themselves good and pumped up and rushing into combat is, often creating a volatile situation where none existed and never would have.
As far as this topic goes, police encounters isn't the only reason an innocent man may choose to try run and hide. Proving your innocence before the courts may well bring financial ruin. And the smearing of your good name can be impossible to erase.
Another thought always in the back of some people's minds is that some officers are no more than lap dogs for judges and lawyers, keeping revenue flowing into the courts regardless of whether there is a victim or whether there has been wrong doing.
No matter how you slice it innocent men are often made victims of the system. And in some regards, it's difficult to argue, that all tax payers are nothing less than innocent victims of the system. Can't really blame them for preferring to not pay even more.
I'm gonna suggest to the administrator that he change the name of this site to "24 hour cop bashing". That seems to be a favorite topic.
Ron
I went back and tallied the posts on this thread. I got 11 post "anti law enforcement", 12 posts "pro law enforcement" and 4 that were neutral, more or less. None of the posts were what I'd call really inflammatory. Hardly 24 hour cop bashing, but then YMMV.
Seems to me more like behavior bashing than "cop bashing".
As was posted earlier police motives and behavior are shifting. Public safety and politeness was once at the forefront of the thinking but now, often as not, gettting themselves good and pumped up and rushing into combat is, often creating a volatile situation where none existed and never would have.
As far as this topic goes, police encounters isn't the only reason an innocent man may choose to try run and hide. Proving your innocence before the courts may well bring financial ruin. And the smearing of your good name can be impossible to erase.
Another thought always in the back of some people's minds is that some officers are no more than lap dogs for judges and lawyers, keeping revenue flowing into the courts regardless of whether there is a victim or whether there has been wrong doing.
No matter how you slice it innocent men are often made victims of the system. And in some regards, it's difficult to argue, that all tax payers are nothing less than innocent victims of the system. Can't really blame them for preferring to not pay even more.
Facing the potential to endure ruin, physical, financial or social (or any combination thereof) and the pains associated with, can be heartwrenching. Not that I'd do it but it's really no wonder to me that some would choose to flee, whether guilty of some minor infraction or completely innocent. The system has people boxed in. There's so many bone headed legalities and hoops to jump through I'd wager anyone could be found guilty of at least something at any time. If it's not imposible to not be, it soon will be.
And, that so many cops out there have such strong desire to get tough with people rather than use disgression and restraint it's all the more unsettling.
amazing....normal people who act normal when they meet police, in 99.999% of cases have no issues and go on about their business.
paranoids, psychos, and criminals act weird, have problems with the police 99.999% of the time when they encounter them, and of course blame it on the police.
Running certainly ups the ante. Ita sign of something serious. Normal people don't run. Criminals do. Now how serious the reason for running is up for debate.
Different places have a different relationship with police. Where i live for the most part its a good relationship. Bad cops are weeded out at least eventually. No hiring system is perfect.
Here is an example of why the game changes when someone runs.
Quote
Traffic chase turns up Pomona murder suspect
November 8, 2009 | 4:50 pm
A Pomona man who led police on a short chase after refusing to pull over for a minor traffic stop is being held in connection with the Sept. 29 shooting death of another man.
Pomona police identified the suspect as Robert Louis Caballero, 32. After refusing the order to stop about 1 a.m. Saturday, police said Caballero led them on a short pursuit into Montclair, where his Dodge Charger struck a light pole. He fled on foot but soon surrendered. Police later said he was wanted on a murder warrant in connection with the death of Armando Vidana, 25.
Caballero is being held without bail at Pomona City Jail.
It looks to me like it's pretty much just poor folks and minorities that have to worry about the cops going off on them. Most of these kinds of articles about cops and or prosecutors reference minorities and poor folks getting the shaft. As long as it's not 'us regular folks', there's no problem right?
Took me about a dozen trips to move all my stuff here from Montana, 2005�2007. Usually drove all night. Got pulled-over by a cop in one or another of four or five states, just about every trip, usually at night. Every one of 'em was very courteous.
Five states each way � Montana, Idaho, Utah, Colorado, New Mexico � never twice by the same cop or twice in the same state on any trip.
I still wonder what's so suspicious or threatening about an old guy in an old pick-up, pulling a trailer at night, intentionally slower than the speed limit. I suspect that they were acting on complaints from drivers who had to slow-down behind me on long up-hill pulls. There were a lot of those, a lot of 'em still furious when they were finally able to get around me.
One cop asked me "Have you been drinking, Sir?" Didn't pull me out of the cab or make me walk a line, touch my nose, snort into a breath-a-wheezer, etc. Was satisfied with "No. I don't drink alcohol."
Conversations were all short � little more than
"Are you all right, Sir?"
"Yes, no problem."
"Drive safely. Have a good trip."
One � Salmon, Idaho � suggested that stopping for the night might be wise, and directed me to a huge parking lot at a Mormon church. Suggested that parking under a light would be wise. Had a good night's sleep there.
I hate to wish time away, but I look forward to the day I can cast off the evil yoke of "the man" and live out the last of my days as a hermit. Retirement is looking better and better every day.
Shhhh! Don't breathe a word of this south of the border, but mightn't those who smuggle people and stuff up here be wise to hire innocuous-looking, obviously decrepit ol' phardts like me as drivers?
How much time you got left Pat. I have about 5 and a half. Mrs. Tide is about to be under 4. Already planning to turn in all my junk and be successful at another career.
How much time you got left Pat. I have about 5 and a half. Mrs. Tide is about to be under 4. Already planning to turn in all my junk and be successful at another career.
Same here. I've got about five years also. I may hang a little longer after my KMA attitude peaks. What are you considering for your next career?
was gonna comment but I see Pat right there on my heels I better run! (grin)
you in the running camp have way more energy than me, I only run when I feel like it's necessary. my life experience has left me with being pulled over by a cop ain't even in the ballpark for me to expend that kind of energy.
have had contact with LEO that runs the whole spectrum, from face down on the highway (good ole TX boys) to the most pleasant stop you could imagine (that guy should have been the trainer for civilian contact, super nice guy even though he wrote me two tickets)
now if Obama has his way and get his civie, para military police force, I might revisit how I react with LEOs.
but for now, it's pretty much hello officer, if you can overlook this transgression, I can hook you up with a years worth of lock picks from LPE.
figure it serves the bastids right for pulling me over in the first place
Actually, I have a brother that works for the railroad. It seems like it would be just interesting enough to keep my attention. Also an opportunity to work on another retirement. I will retire at 43.
I think one's view point of police is based on where you are. Here in Montana where there are more guns than people and almost everyone is heavily armed both citizens and police, citizens and police tend to be polite.
I'm sure in those places where only the police are armed and maybe the criminals things tend to be a little less polite between the police and the citizen.
Cruisin' down the middle of the road on this subject. Law enforcement is necessary, but I'm thinking a little imposition of justice would do away with the need for so many cops. To my way of thinking the collective law agencies in the US are a fifth column which I cannot fully trust. I don't fear them...just don't trust them.
Never been arrested but have had a number of experiences good and bad with LEOs. There are some of those tools out there far too impressed with their power and unconcerned with their purpose to suit me. They will lie during testimony in court. They will turn on the victim with abrasive and intimidating interrogation. They will not expend resources to solve crimes, sometimes when the perp is identified for them.
Some years back I lived in the Keys and had a fishing boat that no agency of the law could catch. The reason they never did was simple. On the day I took delivery one of the nation's finest told me he couldn't wait to take a chain saw to it during an inspection. Why would I let them do that? I had the speed and it was simple to employ. Why would I embrace LEOs, even if I understand that most are OK and stand for the right things, when far too many are two bit punks.
OTOH, one of them saved my life years ago and I never got his name or got to shake his hand.
Boils down to this for me. What have I got to gain by having discourse with cops? I avoid them when I can.
Color me skeptical of our paramilitary police agencies.
Boils down to this for me. What have I got to gain by having discourse with cops? I avoid them when I can.
Very much so.
Works out good. We usually avoid folks who aren't police, they don't want us around unless something is wrong.
I don't hate cops, by any means, but I gave up a long time ago, hoping that a cop would help me in times of trouble. In fact, I don't know one person around here, who has ever had a cop show up and help them out when they were in need. Sorry, just the truth.
Cruisin' down the middle of the road on this subject. Law enforcement is necessary, but I'm thinking a little imposition of justice would do away with the need for so many cops. To my way of thinking the collective law agencies in the US are a fifth column which I cannot fully trust. I don't fear them...just don't trust them.
Never been arrested but have had a number of experiences good and bad with LEOs. There are some of those tools out there far too impressed with their power and unconcerned with their purpose to suit me. They will lie during testimony in court. They will turn on the victim with abrasive and intimidating interrogation. They will not expend resources to solve crimes, sometimes when the perp is identified for them.
Some years back I lived in the Keys and had a fishing boat that no agency of the law could catch. The reason they never did was simple. On the day I took delivery one of the nation's finest told me he couldn't wait to take a chain saw to it during an inspection. Why would I let them do that? I had the speed and it was simple to employ. Why would I embrace LEOs, even if I understand that most are OK and stand for the right things, when far too many are two bit punks.
OTOH, one of them saved my life years ago and I never got his name or got to shake his hand.
Boils down to this for me. What have I got to gain by having discourse with cops? I avoid them when I can.
Color me skeptical of our paramilitary police agencies.
Well said.
I would add: For me, it is not about individual LE officers, it's about an "over-militarization" and "over-professionalization" of police departments. Then factor in an attitude by our legislatures and the courts that have given police departments increasing power, through an explosion of regulations, statutes, and decisions over the past 20 years, and there has indeed become a larger degree of distrust among citizens.
It is government vs the citizens attitude that governement officals will deny, but in practice is a different matter.
Boils down to this for me. What have I got to gain by having discourse with cops? I avoid them when I can.
Very much so.
Works out good. We usually avoid folks who aren't police, they don't want us around unless something is wrong.
I don't hate cops, by any means, but I gave up a long time ago, hoping that a cop would help me in times of trouble. In fact, I don't know one person around here, who has ever had a cop show up and help them out when they were in need. Sorry, just the truth.
Well, reference those people at Ft. Hood where a cop showed up and helped them while in need.
Well, reference those people at Ft. Hood where a cop showed up and helped them while in need.
Point taken. However, I expect that exactly NONE of those soldiers were wishing there was a cop around when that Muslim was firing on them. I'm guessing they were wishing they could've had their piece on them on-base.
IOW, cops or the lack thereof, only become an issue to me when my own government disarms me in the face of criminals and then their agents fail to be their to provide protection. I'd rather spend my money on a gun than another cop over at the county seat. Again, sorry, but just telling it like it is.
In fact, I don't know one person around here, who has ever had a cop show up and help them out when they were in need. Sorry, just the truth.
I don't know if this qualifies as "show up," but a number of years ago I was driving a car whose radiator tended to leak and overheat. I pulled into the parking lot of a supermarket and went in a bought a gallon of distilled water. When I went to put it in my radiator, I couldn't get the radiator cap off. I have to admit I was being careful, since I didn't want to be burned by steam.
There was a police officer standing by the entrance to the super market. I went over to him, explained that I couldn't get my radiator cap off, and asked him if he would come over and help me. He hesitated for a moment (thinking probably he shouldn't leave his post), but he did come over and got the cap off for me.
I sure hope all these paranoid anti's don't think that all cops love one another cause I can tell you first hand it ain't so. One of the things I used to say to piss off fellow cops (the jerkoff's that is) was that I wore my bulletproof vest to protect me from knife wounds in the back. When I get out on patrol where it's safe, I can take it off.
Well, reference those people at Ft. Hood where a cop showed up and helped them while in need.
Point taken. However, I expect that exactly NONE of those soldiers were wishing there was a cop around when that Muslim was firing on them. I'm guessing they were wishing they could've had their piece on them on-base.
In terms of wishing, I am always reminded of something my grandfather, "The Old Indian" used to say: You can wish in one hand and $hyte in the other. See which one fills up the fastest.
Reference the Militarization, our units only wear BDU's when going to the range, or working some other kind of special detail, such as K-9 units. We have rank structure that makes us a quasi-military organization, I suppose, but other than that, our cadets are encouraged to make time to visit the Mom and Pop establishments, eat a sandwich and drink a coke.
I get calls at least three times a week from folks who live in the county I used to Troop. "This one is selling that." "That one is taking stolen stuff". I pass on the information to the units who work that county now.
I do my best to avoid these threads, and enjoyed doing my best to hijack it earlier, but the truth is, bitching about law enforcement is like bitching about your elected officials. If you want things to change, be willing to put yourself in that position. I am off in here spinning my wheels, there is definitely room for you too.
Nineteen years LEO; Patrol, Custody, FTO, Firearms Instructor, former SWAT (that evil paramilitary gestapo) and also a proud follower of oathkeepers.org principles. Take a minute to check out the site.
Nineteen years LEO; Patrol, Custody, FTO, Firearms Instructor, former SWAT (that evil paramilitary gestapo) and also a proud follower of oathkeepers.org principles. Take a minute to check out the site.
Well, reference those people at Ft. Hood where a cop showed up and helped them while in need.
Point taken. However, I expect that exactly NONE of those soldiers were wishing there was a cop around when that Muslim was firing on them. I'm guessing they were wishing they could've had their piece on them on-base.
What they were wishing is likely for the shooting to stop. Reality being what reality is, they did NOT have weapons, and reality being what reality is, there would almost certainly have been far more casualties if 300 armed soldiers started shooting at the same time from friendly fire.
I don't know why you don't respect cops but expect them to respect you.
IOW, cops or the lack thereof, only become an issue to me when my own government disarms me in the face of criminals and then their agents fail to be their to provide protection. I'd rather spend my money on a gun than another cop over at the county seat. Again, sorry, but just telling it like it is.
Just to show you that I'm not trying to pick on you Cole, I offer this story. A few years back, when Kentucky passed their CCDW law, people used to always tell me at traffic stops that they had their gun, and that they had a permit for it. My pat answer was that if they didn't pull theirs, I wouldn't pull mine, and we would get along fine.
I was also asked numerous times, how I felt about that law. My answer for that was, the country I grew up in was covered in guns. I told them that if you went into the courthouse and yelled "Drop the Gun!" They would cover up the floor in Government Model Colts, and Smith J Frames. Everybody was armed. I don't mind that at all. It seems to make everyone a little more "polite" for lack of a better descriptor.
Anyway, I understand your point. Hope you can understand mine.
I never said I didn't respect cops. Go back and re-read the posts. I don't respect you, but that's because of your past behavior on here. I have a lot of respect for Powell, Terry, NHK9, and even Hunter.
the po po have never understood the anxiety they cause in the average Citizen when there is an 'interface' between cop and Citizen. On the other hand, maybe they do...........
You betcher asss they do.
Amen to that, Cole. Amen!
Some of those good publik servants "get off" pushing around Joe Publik Taxpayer.
Well, reference those people at Ft. Hood where a cop showed up and helped them while in need.
Point taken. However, I expect that exactly NONE of those soldiers were wishing there was a cop around when that Muslim was firing on them. I'm guessing they were wishing they could've had their piece on them on-base.
What they were wishing is likely for the shooting to stop. Reality being what reality is, they did NOT have weapons, and reality being what reality is, there would almost certainly have been far more casualties if 300 armed soldiers started shooting at the same time from friendly fire.
I don't know why you don't respect cops but expect them to respect you.
Some of those good publik servants "get off" pushing around Joe Publik Taxpayer.
There is some truth to that statement, but some "Joe Publik Taxpayers" cry about be being oppressed for profit, fun or sense of importance. Lots of them.
In my own admittedly limited experience, when I have been pleasant/respectful with cops they return the favor, if I was an azzhat, they weren't nice, but still not unprofessional.
I used to be, ahem, sort of a speeder and had a few instances to verify the above!
Some of those good publik servants "get off" pushing around Joe Publik Taxpayer.
There is some truth to that statement, but some "Joe Publik Taxpayers" cry about be being oppressed for profit, fun or sense of importance. Lots of them.
Hey I love profit! "Profit" is a necessary part of the business process - (and reward for certain kinds of risk and talent - often likened to "entreprenuership!")
Admittedly, I disagree with "no knock" warrants, Asset forfeiture laws, and cops that are actually bullies with a badge. However, when I was hoofing along an Iowa Interstate on a dark night because I had a blowout and had neglected to check whether the spare was serviceable, I sure was glad to see the State Trooper show up. He not only called a tow truck for me, he gave me a ride to the service station. Turned out to be a shooter on top of it.
First, let emphasize; I live in the small town where I grew up (well most of the time I live there). Some of the police and deputies in my county I have known all my life, some are longtime family friends.
There was a very good post on a thread about police a several years ago about the distinction between peace officers vs police officers. To put it simply, a peace officer is keenly aware he is a member of the community and a citizen--and acts like it, a police officer knows only he works for the government--and acts like it.
Don't get me wrong, you rarely see me participate in the cop threads here. I have certain degree of sympathy for police--they are at the bottom of the totem pole, and are often the ones who get the blame while prosecutors, judges, and other various legal leeches evade any responsibility.......
Just curious. I have noted that while most people would prefer police officers to be a "part of the community", friends and neighbors, most common actual complaints are that officers did not behave professionally, but emotionally.
Well sir, up till this point in the thread, those who said they avoided contact with the police mentioned that they did so because it cut down on their chances of having a bad encounter. I can accept that at face value. I won't get killed in a skydiving accident if I never jump out of an airplane.
That said, the communities we live in are often larger then they were when we were all growing up. The average policeman in any given community doesn't know as many citizens as he, or she, used to. The opportunities to police like we used to 15 years ago are gone.
I am sure that there is plenty of room for improvement in the area of customer service. I can see how attitudes and tempers can run short on both sides.
To be frank, I haven't read all of this thread. On a related note, however, I recommend that any staunch, unabashed LEO supporter read writer John Grisham's 2006 non-fiction book "The Innocent Man". The book deals with events in the 1980's in a small Oklamaha town and outlines how either inadequate (even dishonest maybe) police officers and prosecutors can ruin the lives of their citizens.
Grisham is most noted for his many books of fiction involving the legal field, many of which have been made into successful motion pictures. He is also a lawyer (possibly former now) so can review events from a professional legal standpoint.
If you can read this without having some nightmares you are a better person than I am.
It is stories like this that for years have made me refer to criminal law as the "legal" system as opposed to the "justice" system.
I know and have worked with many police officers and know they are not all bad. I have also heard the background on many other stories involving LEO's which leave them in anything but a favourable light.
This is put forward for what its worth. Some of you would probably have your eyes opened by some of the happenings which Grisham outlines in the book.
It's taken him six years to warm up to my other Sgt. (when the K9 is in the cruiser). The secret: Every time Bill approached the car, he flicked a few pieces of my dog's food (scoffed from my office) into the cruiser.
Approach him (us) when we're OUT of the car and you're GTG.
"Last time I looked they were all government lawyers and judges."
That is a fact. You cannot be either a lawyer or a judge until you've buddied up to the system and promised to play along. Don't believe it? Go against the flow and see how long it takes til you're disbarred.
"Flee" conjures and image not altogether relevant to the issue from where I'm sitting. "Flee" is probable cause. "Avoid" is another bag of worms entirely. Not unlike the difference between 'cover' and 'concealment'.
I think it a mistake to take what is said in this discussion with narrow focus or interpretation. Life isn't like that and all circumstances are as variable as snowflakes. I am not impolite toward LEOs, nor am I submissive. I don't expect, I demand professional behavior, not only from LEOs, but all government employees. That's my line in the sand so to speak.
I took issue with a Hispanic FHP officer down in Dade County some years back due to his behavior and misconduct. His LT. was not impressed to find out that HE had been lied to and I rather imagine it slowed down the patrolman's career progression, as well it should. Neither was the presiding judge now that I recall it. Funny what a phone call and a few well considered questions can do. Reminds me, just how many times can a cop's father die anyway?
Too, I lived through the River Cops caper down in Dade.....strange times then.
Well, that's a small piece of the foundation upon which I stand. I would help a cop in a bind w/o compunction. Due to the administration of our criminal justice system they are living their own version of Vietnam with no end in sight. Pity is due, help when and if appropriate, and don't think your short hair and barks will cow me. I've seen scarier stuff.
Worked with quite a few ex LEOs in the ATC world. Seemed a popular career progression in the community. Every one of them had their little coffee shop stories about how they screwed somebody over and got away with it. <giggle, giggle>
Lying is just something that isn't a part of my personal code. Under oath, of course, and that's the salient point. It is against the justice system. And I took an oath, btw.
On a practical level, the results aren't worth the cost of lying. So some guy beats the rap? OK, that's the way the system works...imperfectly.
...on the other hand, I alway told myself that I was saving my lies, 'cause one day I would really, really need them! What I found, of course, was that if you never lie about little stuff, you never have to lie about big stuff.
I was in the biz for 30+ years and never screwed anyone. You should report illegal activities from LEO to the proper authorities.
I can safely say the same. If someone got cuffed or even summoned by me, they were guilty.
"Guilty" means they're convicted. That wasn't always the case. As I said above, a few beat the rap. Life goes on.
Even though it's semantics, we will disagree here. Guilty means they did it. Convicted means they have been found guilty by the court. I have seen many, many guilty people not convicted.
...on the other hand, I alway told myself that I was saving my lies, 'cause one day I would really, really need them! What I found, of course, was that if you never lie about little stuff, you never have to lie about big stuff.
+1
Funny how being honest can make a guy downright confident in himself and his profession!
Likewise. Next time any of you get stopped by a cop and he asks "Do you know why I'm stopping you?", tell the truth and see what happens. Honesty is the trait that all decent people share. It's absense is what we abhor about politicians and criminals, and presense we charish about friends and family.
Hey LT., how many cops you know that are out there saying, "Hey, there's a guy not doing anything wrong, lets see if we can get him to run so we can do a bunch more paperwork?" I'm betting not many.
I swear some people think we get paid by the arrest or the paper we generate.
None, but I try to remember that the majority of people that are here at the "Campfire" are the independent, self-sufficient types who really don't encounter LEO's very often, because they are good citizens and can take care of themselves. They just need to remember that they(we)are a minority in this country.
I love that question. I usually answer it by asking, "Why did you pull me over?" I try to get mine out first if I can. I figure he pulled me over, so me must have a reason. Why is it up to me to figure out why he did what he did? PO don't seem to like answering dumb questions any more than I do.
I'm telling you. It's a test. Saying, "Ugh, 'cause I was going a hundred and twenty?" may get you a warning when "No Sir." will get you a ticket. Cops HATE liars and thieves.
120 is going to get you a ticket. Anywhere. I don't care what you say.
I never did ask that question, I always told them my name and why I was stopping them. I might say, "Is there any legitimate reason you're going 120 MPH?"
I have a lot more respect for that kind of direct approach. I'd rather hear that than, "Do you know why I pulled you over?" Hell if you don't know, then why are you asking me?
I think way too much effort is spent on traffic stops trying to get a self-incriminating statement. What's the point, if you saw it, make the decision to give a warning or a ticket, then move on. I had a cop nearly stand on his head trying to get me to admit I was speeding. I wasn't, I knew I wasn't and I stood my ground. I got a warning. I figure he wasn't really sure himself and was just trying to get me to make the decision for him.
I don't care that much about receiving a ticket, I can live with that, but I'm not ever going to admit to any PO that I broke a law. If you do that you deserve what you get.
Lying buys yourself a coupon every time. I can't stand a liar. More people will talk themselves into a ticket when none was going to be given than most people would imagine.
And for the most part people are good and decent enough folks. Some are sheep, some aren't. 10-15 percent are your problem.
I completely agree. I dislike police lying to me just as much. I remember being pulled over in FL many years ago. The officer made the statement, "You better tell me if you have any guns in the car because if I find any later on...it'll be a lot better for you if you admitted it to me first."
Even as a kid I knew that bullshiz. First, I don't have to tell you about any guns in my car, whether I have them or not. Second, if I do tell you, it isn't going to "go better for me" because of it. Third, this is a traffic stop. Once you write the ticket, or give me a warning, our business is concluded.
Now, which one of us was doing all the lying there?
First of the month and end of the month always worth a coopen'. Not much middle anymore, society as a whole less friendly, less civil, pissin' up a rope bemoanen bad cops. Lottsa' a bad people period. YMMV
Off my beat, too. No requirement to tell about guns in the car where I come from, we just assumed everyone had one. It's safer that way. It's legal to carry in your car with a Firearms License, (on your person) and legal inside a car if it's not on your person. (In my state.)
I didn't mind them lying to me, in fact, I expect it. I never was a traffic cop, though. In fact, come to think of it, I liked them to lie, since it was a contest I could always win. Most liars are so transparent it's not even close.
TomSmith, it's possible you don't understand Ammendment 4 if you make blanket statements like you did. "It's just a traffic stop" isn't an eternal truth.
Agreed on all counts, and in Texas, it's legal to carry anytime in a vehicle, permit or not. I guess I'm spoiled, but in Texas guns would not be an issue for anybody if the Feds didn't say it was so.
Agreed on all counts, and in Texas, it's legal to carry anytime in a vehicle, permit or not. I guess I'm spoiled, but in Texas guns would not be an issue for anybody if the Feds didn't say it was so.
Same here. It's nice to live in a Pro 2nd amendment State. I would loose my mind with what some people are forced to live with.
120 is going to get you a ticket. Anywhere. I don't care what you say.
I never did ask that question, I always told them my name and why I was stopping them. I might say, "Is there any legitimate reason you're going 120 MPH?"
Got pulled over by a Florida Highway Patrolman about 11:30 PM in the spring of 1970 doing 120 mph in my Barracuda on a newly opened stretch of I-95 in Ft. Lauderdale. I know it was 120 because I checked the speedometer when I saw his lights. He said he clocked me at 112 and I didn't argue the point.
Told the nice officer that I needed to get my 12th grade English term paper to my teacher's house (Mrs. Rhoda Radow) by midnight that night or I would get an F, subsequently flunk English and might not graduate high school. Offered to show him the term paper on the front seat if he wanted.
He seemed to think that sufficient, gave me a lecture about how going so fast might negate my graduation in other ways and let me off with a warning.
Karma got me 36 years later when I got the one and so far only speeding ticket of my life doing 31 mph in a 20 mph residential zone.
I have extensive knowledge of the 4th amendment, at least for a lawyer. I never made any blanket statements regarding anything. I was discussing a specific incident and I believe that you've attributed a quote in your posting to something that I never said.
Of course a lot can escalate a traffic stop into something much more, such as things you see, smell, hear, answers you get or don't get, outstanding warrants, etc. However, if none of that happens, the initial traffic stop has a limited life span.
Police searches incident to traffic stops wasn't the point of my story. I was merely pointing out that police-civilian lying can often be a two-way street and I am sure that neither group appreciates it very much.
120 is going to get you a ticket. Anywhere. I don't care what you say.
I never did ask that question, I always told them my name and why I was stopping them. I might say, "Is there any legitimate reason you're going 120 MPH?"
Got pulled over by a Florida Highway Patrolman about 11:30 PM in the spring of 1970 doing 120 mph in my Barracuda on a newly opened stretch of I-95 in Ft. Lauderdale. I know it was 120 because I checked the speedometer when I saw his lights. He said he clocked me at 112 and I didn't argue the point.
Told the nice officer that I needed to get my 12th grade English term paper to my teacher's house (Mrs. Rhoda Radow) by midnight that night or I would get an F, subsequently flunk English and might not graduate high school. Offered to show him the term paper on the front seat if he wanted.
He seemed to think that sufficient, gave me a lecture about how going so fast might negate my graduation in other ways and let me off with a warning.
Karma got me 36 years later when I got the one and so far only speeding ticket of my life doing 31 mph in a 20 mph residential zone.
And the above is entirely the truth. I swear!
Jim, that is a good one! I guess I could tell one along those lines.
I was working traffic on US 27, about 25 miles north of the Tennessee line. Another Trooper calls to me on the radio, and says he just clocked a camaro at 100+ and was turning but didn't expect to catch him. I was only about 6 miles North of where he clocked the camaro, so I turned around and started North.
In just a few seconds, I saw the camaro in the rear view, so I flipped on the blue lights,got into the left lane and did the old "top Gun maneuver". (Got on the brakes and let him fly by.)
Driver signaled that he was pulling over and did. I called to my buddy and told him that I had him stopped.
I walked up to the car and immediately the driver launches in his tale. "Trooper, I wouldn't be going this fast, but my buddy shot himself through the thumb with a nail gun." I leaned over where I could she the guy sitting in the passenger seat, and sure enough, he was sitting over there holding his left hand in his right, all sick and pale looking, and sporting a framing nail sticking in and out of the knuckle on his thumb. It looked just like the old gag arrows that Steve Martin used to wear doing his routine.
Anyway, without wasting anymore time, and to keep them from seeing me laugh, I just waved them on. Buddy pulls up about the time they are pulling out, and has the "What the hell?" look. I told him the story and then we both had a good laugh.
So I could say there were times when I could see not writing a ticket for speeding in excess of 100mph.
On a late night traffic stop I was working as volunteer reserve officer (my full time job was as a paramedic at the time), the deputy I was riding with pulled over a speeding car on a 2 lane state highway in the middle of nowhere (about 90 in a 55 zone).
He got out and approached the speeder, as I stayed by the patrol car, waiting for dispatch to notify us of any issues with the tags and vehicle description - and keeping a good hand on the shotgun, as a precaution, of course.
A few seconds later he comes back, and tells me to "give the guy a hand" and pops the trunk latch on the patrol car.
I go up and sure enough, wife's in labor in the back seat.
Partner comes back with the first aid kit and says, "I don't think we're going to make it to the hospital."
My hunting buddy broke his pelvis in two places..hospital is 45 miles away... Luckily his daughter was a dispatcher for the PD and her husband, a police officer. Had a friend call it in, tell them what kind of vehicle I was driving, and to leave us alone...if they wanted to give me a ticket, they could meet me at the hospital.... Well, after a fashion, they did... His SIL alerted the ER and when I rolled up they were ready with backboards, clipboards, doctors, nurses...the Royal treatment! No tickets!!
I got a speeding ticket late one night � came down a long, straight, steep hill, under a railroad, into a small town. Cop was waiting on the town side of the underpass.
Don't remember having seen any "slow speed ahead" type of sign on that long, straight, steep hill.
He nailed me good, and I paid. I was really zooming, coasting without my foot on the gas pedal.
And I'm sure that there's always a cop there, raking-in twenty bucks a pop for that little town every night.
Back in 91, I was driving back to Miami after seeing the space shuttle take of. I was driving a Toyota spacecruiser that was full (about 7 of us) I hadnt been drinking but the others had,it was late and we were having a good old laugh in the car.We were on the Interstate so was doing about 65mph and slightly weaving in my lane but not crossing the white line,anyways the cops light up and I pull over (over here you get out of the car and meet each other by the trunk) So Ive gone to get out and next thing I`ve got guns pointed at me yelling this and that (of which i couldnt understand)so Ive got my hands stuck out of the window and all i`m shouting is I`m English I`m English we`ve just come back from the shuttle!!this went on for about 10seconds, then they stopped shouting and started talking but still with guns drawn and managed to explain as best i could that i was English etc.Luckily 2 of the girls had their passports with them which they managed to throw out of the window and this helped a little.To cut a long story short the cops were OK and we had a laugh about it and even got a photo!but...we all shcitt our pants and hedded the cops advice should I/we get stopped again.
I still talk about the incident as fondly as i do about watching the shuttle lift off.
Excerpt: Every death of a police officer "in the line of duty" is solemnly memorialized and carefully tabulated. However, there is no official record kept of civilians who are unjustly killed or otherwise brutalized by police.
Each encounter between the police and innocent civilians is a potentially deadly experience for the latter. Thus the real question is not "Why do innocent people flee from the police?" but rather, "What rational person would submit to the police if he had any reasonable hope of eluding or resisting them?"
Geez Mr. B, how many times do you have to post the same drama? Same song as many times before, just a different day.
120 is going to get you a ticket. Anywhere. I don't care what you say
Told one I was doing "about 110" almost 40 years ago. He let me go, no ticket, but told me if I was going to fly, I needed to get a pilots license.
In fact the first thing he said to me was "do you have a pilots license".
Have any of you guys tried that GPS program that alerts you to speed traps. looks interesting. I was thinking of trying out phantom alert. anyone with personal experience in here?
Ya better stay on your toes down there. I have a feeling you'll need your A game just to keep up with Sarge and Lt. I'll pm you my number so you can have a shoulder to cry on.
Excerpt: Every death of a police officer "in the line of duty" is solemnly memorialized and carefully tabulated. However, there is no official record kept of civilians who are unjustly killed or otherwise brutalized by police.
Each encounter between the police and innocent civilians is a potentially deadly experience for the latter. Thus the real question is not "Why do innocent people flee from the police?" but rather, "What rational person would submit to the police if he had any reasonable hope of eluding or resisting them?"
Time was an old friend would run from every game warden he saw whether he had broken the law or not, just to have the game wardens chase him. This crazy SOB could run a mile with combat boots on in a bit over four minutes I saw it happen in basic training! Never saw a GW even get close to catching him.
Credibility for a police officer means ALWAYS telling the truth, even when it goes against you, and NEVER having to guess what the truth is. I had a perp accuse meof lying on the stand once. The judge stopped him in mid sentence and told him that Officer Keith's credibility would never come into question as long as he sat on the bench because he had heard me telling it straight for too many years to ever believe I was not 100%, bang on, telling the truth, both against and in favour of the defendant.
I read page one and jumped to here. I wore the badge, I arrested folks, I never once saw an individual taken advantage of by an officer of the law unless that person started an altercation with the lawman. I have heard yes Sir or yes Maam come from the lawmans lips many times, I have used them in sincerity. Every runner I saw usually had something illegal on their person when tackled. Since I changed careers I have been pulled over several times, I quickly pull over where safe, I keep both hands visible, look them in they eye, and start off with hello Officer whatever their name is on the badge and say Yes Sir or No Sir on the questions. You can see their demeanor change.
So Mr. I choose a monkey for my picture, Sir, until you have pulled someone over with a gun in their lap who freely admits that they would have killed you if you would have been alone, or had a runner turn with a weapon to use because they have a felonous amount of controlled substance on their person and don't want to go back to jail and will sort of shoot or stab you to keep from going back to jail for the third time perhaps you should get your paranoia treated and stop when asked by the lawman who is trying to keep drugs from your kid or a drunk driver from hitting your wife or children. Did your momma ever tell you that you have to give respect to get respect?
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