The folks from Westboro Baptist Church in Kansas believe that military deaths are God's revenge for the country's tolerance of homosexuality, particularly for allowing gay people to serve in the military.

They seem to believe very strongly that the Bible tells them God hates homosexuals and is punishing the US for tolerating homosexuality by killing the men and women serving in our military.

Apparently the Bible's teachings compel them to picket the funerals of our service men and women who have made the ultimate sacrifice for their country (some of whom they assume are gay and "deserve" to die). The Bible apparently compels them to do these things so the rest of us will "see the light" they have seen in "God's teachings".

Many here are Bible scholars. Can anyone here tell me where the Westboro Baptist Church believers find support for their beliefs/actions in the Bible? If they aren't "right" can you tell me what passages in the Bible demonstrate they are "wrong"?

If they are wrong can some of you Biblical scholars travel to Kansas and show them so they'll stop this sh*t that the Supreme Court ruled is protected speech?

Supreme Court rules First Amendment protects church's right to picket funerals
By Robert Barnes
Wednesday, March 2, 2011; 10:59 AM

A nearly unanimous Supreme Court ruled Wednesday that the First Amendment protects even hurtful speech about public issues and upheld the right of a fringe church to protest near military funerals.

Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. wrote that the Topeka, Kan.-based Westboro Baptist Church's picketing "is certainly hurtful and its contribution to public discourse may be negligible." But he said government "cannot react to that pain by punishing the speaker."

"As a nation we have chosen a different course-to protect even hurtful speech on public issues to ensure that we do not stifle public debate," Roberts said.

Justice Samuel A. Alito was the lone dissenter.

"Our profound national commitment to free and open debate is not a license for the vicious verbal assault that occurred in this case," Alito wrote.

The case concerned Westboro's picketing at the funeral of Marine Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder, 20, who was killed in Iraq. The church - which is made up almost entirely of the family members of its founder, the Rev. Fred W. Phelps - picketed the 2006 funeral in Westminster, Md., carrying signs such as "Thank God for Dead Soldiers," "God Hates [bleep]" and "America is Doomed."

The church contends military deaths are God's revenge for the country's tolerance of homosexuality. Matthew's father, Albert Snyder, sued.

Snyder argued at trial that the Phelpses had invaded his privacy, caused emotional distress, and violated his rights to free exercise of religion and peaceful assembly.

A Baltimore jury awarded Snyder more than $10 million, which was cut in half by the judge and then overturned by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit in Richmond. A three-judge panel said that although the rhetoric used was offensive, it was protected as speech concerning issues in the national debate.

I would like to see 10 of these [bleep] killed everytime one soldier dies.

Then I would love to see about 1000 soldiers protesting the funerals of Westboro church members.

See how these folks like a taste of their own medicine.

That's pretty funny.

A wacko is a wacko, pure and simple.

I've never been taught such things. I'm no scholar of the Bible but this may be a religion adding bible enteries to support their agenda. A-holes.

I think where Alito's dissent is coming from is this: speech can be curbed by the State when necessary to protect those in the immediate vicinity from danger. The classic example we all learned in law school is that yelling "Fire!" in a moviehouse is not protected speech because it could cause a stampede where people could be hurt. Essentially, Westboro is using fighting words which can certainly, under the right circumstances, such as where they would cause violence to occur, be curbed. At least that is my take on Alito's dissent which I agree with. I am flumoxed to say the least as to why local municipalities do not choose to exercise their 10th Amendment police powers (the approopriate power in this case) to shut them down or at least remove them far enough away from the situation so as to render them much less caustic.

Unfortunately your post supposes that these people can be reasoned with. They can't.

History is full of instances where some group grabs onto some peice of biblical truth (such as the fact that homosexuality is sin, and like all sin deserves God's just condemnation) taking it to an unbiblical extreme.

The fact of the matter is that ALL sin is worthy of condemnation. Their lack of compassion was condemned by Christ when Pharisees were about to stone a woman guilty of adultery... "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone".

All death is a judgment from God against all sin. These people practice a type of hypocrisy that demonstrates that even those within the visible Church are prone to show their depravity just as readily as those outside. They ought to be ashamed but it seems as though such introspection is beyond them.

I have NO IDEA where they come up with the justification for what they do, but I can CERTAINLY tell you where they go wrong.

Jesus, the Son of God...When he was here on earth he gave out ONE and only ONE commandment:

John 13:34-35:
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. And they shall know you are my followers, because of your love.

Do you see anything about what Westboro is doing that conveys love?

I look at John 13:34-35 as God's divine "BS Detector", and mine is pegged when I look at what Westboro does.

Might also want to consider the admonishment and dangers thereof of adding a single word to or taking a single word from what is prescribed. At that point it becomes uses for our/their will not His Will.

Well, they LOVE to piss off "normal" people.

I find it also ironic that 2 of Fred Phelps (the founding father of their "church") has fathered children from his own daughters. So not only is he "anti-gay"/"anti-America". He's pro-incest/mollestation. That's just F'd up.

That was a good post.

�Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar�s, and unto God the things that are God�s�

Because the First Amendment of the Constitution protects our right to speak, and is part of our secular law, such speech is a manifestation of a thing belonging to Man (Caesar). This same First Amendment also protects the individual right to speak of Holy things, such as Scripture and our relationships with God. It applies to all religions, including atheism. To ban any free speech, on either side of the issue, would defeat God's desideratum governing free will.

Such a ban based on the police power of the state would also constitute an establishment of religion. For example, in one National Forest Native Americans are proposing restricting the year round small and non-game hunting season so they can conduct religious ceremonies free from the sound of occasional gun fire. To promulgate a law denying a legitimate recreational activity on public land for the purpose of supporting a specific religion would violate the First Amendment restriction against governmental establishment of religion. Same with the free exercise of religious speech, as in the case of the Westboro Baptist Church, such offensive speech may violate various sectarian religious beliefs, and common decency, but it can not be interfered with using the power of the state.

As for God, He seems to prefer that each of us decide for ourselves on matters of faith. Anyone forced by the power of the state, through theocratic or secular rule, to obey a certain religious practice, is not redeemed in God's eyes. That is why God does not merely raise His hand and instantly illuminate everyone as to His existence and purpose. It is for us to decide to believe and follow. God would abhor beating our neighbor into submission to any religion, such would condemn both to His displeasure.

God also has designed conflict into every physical, moral and spiritual question, through the agency of opposing beliefs struggling with one another. Consider this: God is the Creator of the universe, He is fully capable of enforcing His law whenever He chooses. If homosexuality, and all the mortal sins are against His law, offending His dignity, He has deliberately deferred passing judgment. Therefore, these things serve His purpose with Mankind, which brings us back to the experience, the debate, and the resolution in each individual heart. Thus, we render to God that which is God's. Meaning we voluntarily give to him our heart, allegiance and faith, in acknowledgment of our dependence and obligation to Him.

These questions will never be resolved in this world. It is up to each of us to practice according to our choices, hoping that what we do is pleasing to Him and purifying for us.

Were you like these people or not the Constitution was upheld today

You, sir, are the type of Christian (and person) for whom I have the highest possible respect! You seem to have found the essence of Christianity and live by it.

If ALL professed Christians focused on that one simple phrase the numerous doctrines that have developed from the various interpretations of the gospels would not be leading folks like those from the Westboro Baptist Church to preach and act out of hatred.

+1

You can equate Westboro to the pharisees.....

I will not discuss my opinion of the Westboro Baptist Church, other than I find their acts distasteful. Their actions are distasteful, but we should refrain from hatred toward them, for God finds hatred towards another the moral equivalent of murder. Indeed, the Constitution was upheld, and that works wonders on all sides of the issue.

The Bible doesn't say God hates homosexuals. He hates the ACT of homosexuality. He loves all men and died so that they can get to heaven. However, He requires that they repent of their sins to be saved and the homosexuals have not done so. Instead, they demand that God accept their sin and it just ain't gonna happen.

The Westboro bunch is flat out wrong in their "Christian" theology.

AMEN!!!

Mike

Not all the Pharisees were hypocrites, Keith. The worst of them justified their own immorality using the Law, but that can happen anywhere.

These Westboro pukes may have been given a constitutional okay from the Supremes, but they will answer to a higher court before this all plays out. There are those who are smugly confident in their salvation, but who work iniquity.

On the last day the last thing they want to hear will be, "Depart from me, you who work iniquity; I never knew you."

This is why St. Paul urges us to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling". Get too high on one's self-righteous hobbyhorse and one might be spending a loooooong time in the Hot Place.

The intended irony in my post was apparently not sufficiently obvious. I do not for one second believe the Westboro Baptist Church folk are capable of reason.

I place them in the same category as religious zealots from all religions. They are, to me, no less loathesome than the Taliban. The leaders twist religion in a way that gives them secular advantages and power over their followers.

But, I'm sure the religious leaders at Westboro "believe" what they preach just as much as the Taliban "believe" what they preach or that Hitler believed what he preached.

Some humans have infinite capacity for rationalization and self-delusion. Many, like those mentioned as examples, convince themselves to "believe" anything that they, in their twisted way, find advantageous to themselves.

We agree entirely on what history teaches us about extremist uses of religious "truths".

They spew hate and incite violence where ever they go.
And just like the KKK or Nazis, they hide behind the the Constitution and Bible

Every time they picket a child's funeral, or a soldier's
I want to take a cement Bible and beat them to death with it.

But that is the kind of publicity they are looking for.
Groups now, follow them around and block them from view with American flags.

I am not that good of a Christian.
I am afraid if it was one of my family, I would be arrested for the violence I would rain down upon them

Yep you and I agree.

God wants His people to look upon sinners with empathy based upon our recognition of our own sin and desperate need of God's grace.

The fact that these people justify such hate with a religion whose founder said its essence was to "love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and love your neighbor as yourself" proves your assertion that they're using human constructs dressed in holy garb to justify themselves.

That is exactly the blindness for which Christ condemned the Pharisees.

Let him without sin cast the first stone? Reading some of these posts tell me the stones would come flying. Christ died because He had to. Men are not capable of abstaining from sin. They may stop one variety only to start another, equally damning version. Faith in the Power of His Blood and Sacrifice are the only hope of all Christian sinners, regardless of their sins.

One cannot reason with the unreasonable nor can you successfully argue with a sick mind. These people seem to me to fit both.

While I would defend their right to say what they will.
They have no right to do it where those folks who are at the funerals can hear.
If we stop them from this one day they will come to us and stop us.
My son is in the NAVY and in harms way a lot since 911 and GOD forbid them folks did something at his funeral,I believe that there are enough Good People around that would take care of them.
What they are doing is setting themselves up for a huge down fall when the time is right.

That, sir, is one excellent analysis! You have my respect and admiration.

Preach on brother.

Praise God from whom grace has flowed for the sins of all His people, including those who choose a different form of hypocrisy than mine.

There is nothing AT ALL in Holy Scripture that condones the pattern of behaviour exhibited by those of the church in question. Matthew 25:31 -- 46 is a good example of Christian living and serving and the consequences of self-serving. One other passage of note:2 Timothy 4:3-4. "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

BrownDog,

First - That was very moving; the highest compliment I've been paid in years, and I certainly wasn't seeking or expecting that. I'm really moved; thank you.

That is my mantra that I preach. I teach youth every Wednesday night at a small Baptist church, and I happen to live in an area where the likes of the KKK are thick. I preach that mantra because, as you said, it is the essence of Christianity. Our job is to love, judgement is God's job, and thank God it's God's job, because (obviously) humans really aren't capable of getting that one right.

Again, thank you so much for the compliment; that 100% made my day.

Very surprised about this churches Baptist affiliation, they're not in the Southern affiliation. They're not in the Freewill affiliation, which has it's Natl. HQ. in Nashville, this according to a news release by FW Bap. Church leadership.

Quote "They seem to believe very strongly that the Bible tells them God hates homosexuals........."

Homosexuality, not homos themselves. Big difference. As previously posted, there are wackos everywhere.

A hearty +1 to that! Well said.

You are entirely welcome. I'm always glad if anything I say or do is useful or contributes something positive to others.

But...if my statement was the highest compliment you've been paid in years I'd say that you are grossly underappreciated (and perhaps a rarity) in the environment you are in. Certainly you are a rarity among those I've met.

My statement was merely a sincere expression of the obvious - your statements deserved appreciation and respect. The fact that you live by them makes YOU deserving of both.

I've met many people of many faiths who espouse many different doctrines with equal vigor and righteous certainty that they are "right". None have impressed me as much as your few statements - and more importantly the fact that you actually live by them.

Your approach and humility is something more of us (especially some of us here on the Campfire) should emulate. The world (and the Campfire) would be a much, much better place.

"Baptist" is a term simply meaning that the church practices baptism by immersion rather than sprinkling. There are many separate denominations and independent churches that use the name. You can't generalize that all churches using the name are connected because they simply aren't.

The Westboro church uses it but their other practices are far removed from those of most other Baptist churches.

If they're not Southern Baptist, they're not crap. No good church, and strictly no church in the SE, would do this.

I have a son in the military. I served several tours myself.

Like it or not.....

The First Amendment protects church's right to picket funerals...

Nothing much else to say about it....

I'm a Christian and I have zero use for any church....period.

That is like saying, "I am an avid rifleman but have zero use for a range".

Unfortunately flawed as it is since it is made up of men, the Church is Christ's chosen means of bringing people to salvation. The fact that so many people in it are messed up is no excuse for disassociation from it. After all, how would one disassociate from all institutions that involve messed up people?

A proper understanding of one's role in the Church requires that we recognize our own sinfulness and need for grace... and our need to extend that grace to our brothers and sisters in the faith.

There are nut jobs everywhere. This bunch just happens to think they are Christians.

That should be the caption under every picture of that group!

Thanks!

Ed

I understand all that better than most and see no need for a church. Spent 50 years in churches...gave them about a quarter of a million dollars....and got nothing in return. My advise is run for your life....and soul's sake.

This thread has been a great read for the most part. There's lots of wisdom around the campfire this day.

What KG said.

I'm neither Christian nor religious but I respect many who are so my comment below is not intended to offend. And not being religious I have no dog in this particular difference of opinion.

But...I think the more correct analogy would be something like:

Saying you are a Christian but have no use for a church would be more like saying you are a rifleman but have no use for joining a riflemen's club where other riflemen meet to discuss their theories and beliefs of what a particular book about rifle shooting has to say and how you should go about shooting when you do go to the range.

The church is not the rifle range. Life outside the church is the rifle range.

You might pick up some great theories and tips about shooting (along with some not so good tips and theories) at a particular riflemen's club (or at another club that interpreted the same book a bit differently). But you actually put them into practice at the range (or in the hunting fields.)

Then, again, you might want to join an entirely different riflemen's club where they discussed the "truths" about rifle shooting that they derived from an entirely different book.

Some of you might be bench rest shooters or high power. Others purely hunters just sighting in for hunting. So your choice of riflemen's club might be different.

You might all be successful shooters - hitting the target you aimed at but just getting there in different ways. Or you might be lousy shooters because:
1. you were unable or unwilling to actually put into practice the tips and theories you've learned from your particular club and the book it is based on;
2. because you interpreted and employed the tips and theories incorrectly;
3. because the theories and tips from your book and/or club were wrong (however strongly you believed them).

Or you might never have joined a riflemen's club or ever read any of the GREAT BOOKS on rifle shooting but still have learned the principles of how to shoot, when to shoot, and to ONLY shoot at something you intended to hit and/or kill from your parents, from watching others, or from your personal experience through trial and error and practice. You might be the great shot who proves that NONE of the books on shooting are essential to great shooting.

Knowledge of all the GREAT BOOKS on shooting might be useful but none may be either necessary or sufficient to produce a great shooter.

Swampy,

Did any of your 250k go to save even one person's soul, or teach him/her about Jesus? If so, I'd consider that money well spent!

IMO you don't give to a Church to get something in return. You give because of what the Church, and Jesus, has provided you - grace, mercy and salvation! Jesus said, "where two or more of you are gathered in my name, there I am also"...

Oddly enough I believe Jesus Christ doesn't need a middle man. He's got an instruction book. We just read it, believe it, and live it as an example to others.

John 13:34-35 (New International Version, �2011)

34 �A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.�

Per the scripture above, the WB Church is condemned by their lack of love.

At the funeral for Lazarus, Jesus wept. At the funeral for soldiers, airmen, sailors and Marines the WBC mocks. They will answer to God for their actions.

You realize that the middle men wrote the book.

And part of living it is attending church and tithing...after all he does give us 90%..grin

Dober

Return? You don't give to God and expect a return. There's no profit/loss statement. You give as a sacrifice. He will return it if you give with your heart, but if your heart is wrong, He won't.

No, they only moved the quill.

Um... man, where to start?

Well... I guess your problem is just that... you're beginning with yourself. If you start with an incorrect presupposition you'll end up at the wrong conclusion.

The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever, not to run his own life for his own soul's sake making his own judgments as to whether the money that wasn't his in the first place got him anything in return.

We submit ourselves to the authority of the Church and its officers as an act of humility which is to reflect our submission to Christ who instituted and established His Church.

You're missing the point my friend.

Well, I didn't read down through the post, but I would like to know if God is killing the other guys for the same reason.

I'd rather burn in hell for eternity than submit myself to a man, a group of men, or an organization. Jesus Christ lives in my heart and that's enough.

You should read "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" and then your eyes will be opened.....you do want them opened?

Preachers, Priest, politians, and lawyers.....95% of them give the rest a bad name.

Not odd at all. There are a couple of key phrases here: "I believe"; "believe it"; and "live it".

Depending on your particular interpretation of the "instruction book" I may respect your beliefs and applaud you for living them, even if I don't share them. But, if you happen to share the interpretation of the "instruction book" that the Westboro Baptist Church folks have, then I'd respect your right to your beliefs even though I didn't respect the beliefs themselves. I would neither respect nor applaud your living them and might actively oppose you.

I presume your beliefs are quite different from the Westboro folks.

I find some profound principles of enormous value in Jesus' life and teachings (as I do in the teachings of other religions). But I find much that is contradictory in the Bible (and other "Great Books"), the interpretations of it, and the ways it is "followed" or implemented by the various Christian religious organizations.

To me, the "instruction book" is neither as clear nor precise as a set of plans I would want if I were going to build a house, or bake a cake, or live a life. There's too much room for interpretation - hence the widely varying understanding of it's meaning. Some of the principles contained in the instruction book are quite sufficient. Others are extraneous, contradictory, maladaptive, and harmful.

But I agree that none of us need a "middle man" to live a moral life. For those who find a middle man useful I support their choice, so long as the middle man doesn't lead them astray as the Westboro "middle man" has done.

Sadly, I wish the churches would preach salvation and avoid everything else. They are into politics, health food, conspiricy theories, and everything in the world but the great commision.

SMN1 I agree with your comments that congregations of the Church of Christ ought to preach salvation. That is the kind of preacher I sit under, and won't submit to any other.

We were visiting a congregation one time on "right to life Sunday" (a man made construct if I've ever heard of one) and the so-called "preacher" gave what amounted to a political speech against abortion. Now I'm against it too but believe it to be abuse of the minister's office to give a stump speech on anything whether I agree or disagree. If I hadn't feared retribution from my wife for mortifying her with such a display I'd have lead my whole family out of that thing.

Fortunately... or unfortunately, whichever way you want to look at it, we got out to the van after a quick exodus from the building and my wife was like, "we oughta have left in the middle of that..." DOE! So much for good solid federal headship... see me hanging my head in shame...

At any rate, I am not spiritually abused subtly nor otherwise. If the Gospel (that is, salvation as a free gift of grace offered freely by God to whomever shall believe in his own sinfulness and turn to Christ as propitatory sacrifice for his sins of omission & commission) isn't preached I won't be a repeat attender, much less a member.

If it is, I'll do anything for it... or I ought to... some days are better than others, but gratitude certainly motivates better than the threat of punishment.

I love the first question and answer of the Heidelberg catechism, which I had printed on the folder for my father's funeral about a week ago:

"What is your only comfort in life and in death?

My only comfort is that I am not my own, but belong with body and soul, both in life and in death, to my faithful Savior Jesus Christ. He has fully paid for all my sins with His precious blood, and has set me free from all the power of the devil. He also preserves me in such a way that without the will of my heavenly Father not a hair can fall from my head; indeed, all things must work together for my salvation. Therefore, by His Holy Spirit He also assures me of eternal life and makes me heartily willing and ready from now on to live for Him."

Still living for him but I can barely sit through a service. I went to a new church Sunday and I was so uncomfortable with the contemporary music program I could barely stay. The sermon was pretty much a multi-media event and though he did preach salvation, he prattled on so long that he ruined any good effect he might have achived. Women and men in shorts and flip flops was a bit disrespectful I felt. I wish I could find a place like the churches I attended as a child.

Here is one I heard recently that really struck a cord with me:

http://christchurchgr.org/audio%20files/sermon_10-10-2010.mp3

I'm with you on the "contemporary" stuff. That is a tough one for me, but increasingly tough to get away from.

I try to focus on the preaching of the Gospel in my congregation. I don't know where you're at and ours can be hit or miss like most denominations, but the OPC and PCA have in my experience been somewhat reliable on this point (of faithfully preaching the Gospel).

Are they Calvinistic?

I think we'd have to ask the Westboro folks. They seem to think they have a direct line on God's intentions that the rest of the world just doesn't see. I suspect though that they'd have a different reason for God to be killing the other guys.

Absolutely; did you listen to the sermon though? No pushing of Calvinism there...

I don't know. I heard a little interview w/ the spokeswoman for the congregation this evening and she said some weird things.

She said that God has commissioned them (the congregation) to blind the eyes of people so that they may see their sin and turn to God.

The problems are that in all references to the reprobate in the Bible being blinded it is God doing the blinding, and He is doing the blinding with the intent not that they may see (duh??) but as a way of giving them over to condemnation.

Nowhere in the Bible has God commissioned people to blind others. Nowhere in the Bible has God blinded people so that they can return to Him.

Of course how that relates to what these folks would have to say of the Islamists who are killing our men in uniform overseas I don't know. It sounds like these folks are a bit beyond reasonable faculties when it comes to their exegesis.

Matthew 15:14 "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."

If women are supposed to remain silent per the Bible, why do they have a female spokesperson?

What he said and what Keven said.

No where in my Bible does it tell me to hate anybody. I may be repulsed by the acts of some people but I cannot think of a single person I hate.

What if one is an atheist in all this? What about just being a good person? By reading this, I can "out-good" all of you. I am an atheist and come from a strong family of such. You are lucky to have the 'right' to keep and bear" you are supposed to be looking out for everyone else. You need to think carefully about protecting everyone from tyranny. You are not the center. You need to see and recognize what makes you special... and that is... that you will do whatever you have to do to protect and provide for others.

Don't make me come up there...

-=tpr=-

Romans 1:24 through the end of the chapter seems to indicate the practice is worthy of death....I'm just sayin'.

What we call the gospels are their accounts of what they saw and heard.Like you would testify in court.The epistle's are letters written to groups of believers.Many times they were just advice about specific questions that would only pertain to that group.

a book written by men, altered over time by other men all of whom claim some special connection with God. The new testament itself was "fixed" by the early Roman catholic church to justify its teachings and beliefs. Many of the early books written about the life of Christ were left out and are largely lost.

Anything that man touches he corrupts for power or to justify his position. Who really knows what God wants?

Respect for the dead and for people that give their lives for my country is a separate topic, if I was the father of one of these soldiers I would find myself arrested for battery.

Hate the sin, love the sinner. It's what Jesus did. There is no love coming from the WBC protesters.

Ro 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Eph 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith�and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no-one can boast.

There's no such thing as a good person. All have sinned and even the slightest little sin will keep you out of heaven unless you trust Jesus to remove it.

This.

That would be the Patriot Guard.

Patriot Guard

You don't have to be a biker to join. All you have to do is have respect for our veterans & GI's.

I don't believe in sin. I am a good person and love my wife and kids who are also good people (I'm very lucky). If you wish to talk with any pertinence, try listening occasionally.

I do not think it very kind that people would disrespect others who have given their lives for our freedom. Those who do are not good people. They do not have the corner on truth. And the Bible does not get to tell us what good is and isn't.

-=tpr=-

The conclusion I understand most here to have come to is that

1) we agree with the ruling of the SC on this case

2) the members of this congregation are in direct violation of the laws of the very God they claim to represent

You're absolutely correct that these people are unkind in their protests, and they're definately not good people, but by what standard do you come to that conclusion?

There can be no doubt that these people don't have the corner on the truth, for the very truth they profess condemns them by their actions. If you read this thread carefully you'll find that most people here agree with you, but we're basing our claims upon what the Bible says is good and what isn't.

How does one who claims to believe in no ultimate standard and right and wrong make any such claims? Seems to me to be self-contradictory.

Well I never said I had no standard. I use my eyes and ears, and I follow my heart. I do not claim to have the corner either, but more important than identifying a single standard is ensuring there are no double standards. From my experience, when good people do this, good things happen.

-=tpr=-

As regards WBC, self righteousness is a particularly blinding sin.


Good replies from efw and KG.

You say you don't believe in sin but then you say there are those who are not good people. Hmmm. How can they not be good people if there's no such thing as sin?

And if there's no such thing as sin, why did Jesus die on a cross for forgiveness of our sins? Must be fiction!

"Sin" otherwise known "S�nn" recognizes religious morals. I do not recognize a religion, do not believe in a God, therefore can not use the word with it's original meaning.

The crucifixion event�probably. The mythology behind it... "fiction" call it what you like. Your argument? shallow and ill conceived.

-=tpr=-

A fool says in his heart there is no God.

Tell me what you believe on your 11th hour.

A man scared for his life and condition, clings to the notion that there exists a God. That man is scared of nature and of his fellow man. He is scared of education, and his world is shaken by the idea that he might be alone when he dies.

-=tpr=-

Irrespective of mine, or anyone else's beliefs in a God
or not...

For me personally, a large portion of the people who identify
themselves as Christian are enough to sour me on the whole
concept. Telling someone they are a fool because they don't
believe what you do serves what purpose?

The problem is that if you fail to recognize an objective standard of good and bad beyond yourself then you've also surrendered the right to make value judgments about the actions of anyone beside yourself.

I understand that as a person who begins and ends with yourself that you don't accept the concept of sin and you certainly are entitled to believe whatever you like. As a matter of fact, you may well be a better man than me even according to the standards you yourself reject.

The problem is, God's bar is higher than me; it is Himself. And just as my denial of gravity would not allow me to fly, your denial of the concept of sin doesn't allow you to avoid answering for yourself at the end of all time.

We can't lean on our own righteousness at that point because not only have we committed sins (adultery & theft, for instance) but we have also ommitted acts of righteousness that positively fulfill Gods Law. To be made right at that high of a standard we must look to Christ who committed no sin and ommitted no righteousness. He was perfect, and by claiming Him and His righteousness we can recieve grace on that last day.

I say "we" because that offer is made to you and anyone else who looks at himself and sees something that is, to avoid the "s" word, "less than perfect" and in need of One who was... and is... perfect.

I did not say it...God did.

As for not believing that is your choice. Remember just because you choose not to believe a truth does not render it untrue.

Sadly, I understand exactly what you mean and agree.

I've met plenty of Atheists, Budhists, Agnostics, and Muslims that were jerks too, though.

Thats a human problem... some call it sin... only one religion offers a definative answer to it, though.

And yes, Atheism is a religion.

Translation: You are willing to let a bunch of hypocrites keep you away from
God. Or, you are using said hypocrites as an excuse to keep from serving God. I can say that because I was once there myself, but I have learned better.

Yes, it's an ongoing task for me, a growing process, to keep seperate
what I think about God and spirituality from what I see
(the negativity) of
fellow man doing and saying for the advancement of what
they believe as right.

To put it into my own language, I tell myself constantly
"Don't be mad at GOD for what Bro. so-and-so did or said
to me"

Could be, like I said, I'm workin' on it.

Jeff, it took me a long time to get past that. I wish you well, and I hope you didn't take my post as an attack. I really have been there.

And because you choose to believe something to be the truth, does not make it true.

Nah, it bit a little, but sometimes that's a good sign
of some truth in something. Thanks.

You only have 1 choice to make: Jesus or not. The choices between Islam, atheism, Bhuddism, etc. are all the same choice - not Jesus. Your eternal soul depends on your choice. Don't be wrong.

I am far from perfect, have said nothing�would say nothing�to the contrary. Rectitude or righteousness is a mere theory. When I go I will expect nothing, beholden only to my family, and dear friends.

I can accept that there is nothing after this. I have made peace with that idea.

-=tpr=-

Wow, What faith!!!

And... I have not judged anyone here. So far I have been insulted with name-calling twice in the last two pages. I am blown away by how little command is had of this language, and how misunderstood simple words like "hypocrite" and "sin" are.

-=tpr=-

If that's what you decided, it's not like you have a choice in making peace with it.

Explain them if you please.

Yeah, I am constantly puzzled by the actions of some.
On one hand, we're all nice guys right? If we got something
wonderful and right in our life, we want to share it with
everyone else, right?

And if you follow a literal interpretation of most scripture
I've been exposed to, you are called on to recruit, right?

Just saying a lot of the activity seems counterproductive
to those ends. At least the Christians don't kill ya if you
don't agree with 'em, like those awful Muslims do.

OH WAIT - I guess I should add "at least not lately anyway"... oh nevermind!

Back to the original topic, whether the morons in Topeka believe what they spout or not, they're the only church that uses their particular cause as a fund raiser. They are despicable people regardless.

+1

I would have trouble believing there is one Christian in the whole group. Yes, they are the kind of folks who give Christians a bad name. And yes, anyone who wanted not to believe would point a finger at them and say, "If that is Christianity, I don't want any part of it."

I am not your teacher. Do not presume to be mine. When I initially contributed to this thread I was under the impression that it had evolved through a desire to understand�why these fundamental extremists thought it "okay" to disrespect our fallen hero's and their families. The fallen are truly my saviors.

I did not see that there were ulterior motives, and hidden agenda's behind the initial questions. I should have known better.

I apologize for having tried to contribute to your ideology, I had no business.

-=tpr=-

That crew -- Westboro -- is wrong. Period. But just because they are wrong doesn't invalidate the Bible, God, or the Lord Jesus Christ. God is always right -- mark it down -- and he always DOES right, whether anyone including me agrees with him.

Nuff said!

Ok. Thought you might care to explain what you mean.

They are Christian in name only. Just because I say I'm a polar bear does not make me one. I must also look and act like one.

Good night sir and God bless.

jimmyp,



You need to do a lot more reading about ancient litterature.

You are a foolish person to say the person who clings to the notion that there exista a God is scared of education. I have met several Ph.D scientist who are Bible believing Christians.

You are trying to use logic and yet laws of logic demand Something trancending them: Like absolute morality. These enities are immaterial and universal and consistant with the God of the Bible. If nature were all there is, then these enities would not exist. Nature is in constant flux.

jeffdwhite,



If you read the Muslim's holy book, you will discover itis their duty to kill the infadels. If you read the New Testament you will find Jesus taught to turn the other cheek if you are struck. So if you are consistant you will understand those who claim to be Christian and harm others are not acting according to the New Testament.

i am so thankful that the Jews didn't kilt the Christ. they were innocent!

and the Islamic fundamentalists didn't even enter upon the stage until about 600 AD more or less.

Christians, as meek and mild as can be, roam the countryside, we know we are safe.

when the Muslims engage physicality in the effort to kilt the Great Satan of the West, well, now we have a dilemma, don't we?

You have a point on the literature I guess, though I am
going by hearsay on the Quran, have not read any of it.

Though I doubt that would be much comfort to the dead folks
killed by crusaders, the natives the Spanish "converted"
the pagans killed by Charlemagne, victims of various inquisitions, prot/catholic feuding, I could go on forever
with that line, but anyway it is depressing and I'd rather
move on to more pleasant thoughts. We humans do some nasty
things to each other for too many reasons.

vel, can't the Muslims and Jews fight each other over something or another? uh, i don't what exactly, but surely something?

and the Christians, inclusive of the Protestants, the Catholics, and the Baptists.

can you imagine what a Buddhist-Christian might look like? or a Hindu-Muslim-Jew? or a Christian-Native American? Get real. there's clear lines of demarcation, and we all know what they are, don't we?

The Bible condemns all of the above. Those who do them are acting completely contrary to Christian beliefs.

Sounds a lot like American cultural "spirituality" to me or what sociologist Christian Smith called "moralistic therapeutic deism" after a study he conducted of youth in "Evangelical" churches as well as the unchurched.

I'll ask this as respectfully as possible, but.... that statement implies you were trying to PURCHASE something? If that is the case, you were 100% guaranteed to be disappointed.
Hopefully I just completely misunderstood. Wouldn't be the first time.

This is an interesting thread. Sorry I missed it unitl now. TPR, not sure if you are much of a movie watcher, but I'd really recommend you watching this movie. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0295725/ Actually regardless of anyone's belief system (or lack there-of) I found it to be VERY interesting, even if just from a historical standpoint (American history) as well as it's obvious moral/ethic relativeness message. Warning: Despite a few big name actors, the acting is pretty bad. It 'almost' distracts from the plot/message but it is one of the very few movies I've seen that will have you REALLY thinking and hopefully appreicating some things a little more. Also VERY timely. But ironically, given the title, it's probably always timely.

I actually know a fair number of Christian Native Americans.

TPR?

I actually sort of enjoy talking to (non-militant) atheists but do you honestly find that statement non-judgemental?

OK, I did it. I read the entire 12 pages! Where's my cookie?
In regards to the OP's original question, I am reminded of a phrase... "You can put your boots in the oven, but that don't make 'em biscuts."
Oddly enough, like most all long threads that started off with a question, the OP got his answer on the first page....