"Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today"

I always loved the lyrics to "Imagine" by John Lennon. As an atheist, I used to think I was in the minority. Now, it appears that might be changing. At least I might be ahead of the curve if this report is true. I know that where I live in Canada, the trend has been more or less one way - and for quite some time now. Church membership is slipping badly, and at the same time those regularly attending are aging rapidly. As to the other countries, I've no knowledge other than reading this report.

Religion may become extinct in nine nations, study says.In the UK, Wales has the highest proportion of religiously "non-affiliated".. Two-thirds not religious - says the survey. A study using census data from nine countries shows that religion there is set for extinction, say researchers.

The study found a steady rise in those claiming no religious affiliation. The team's mathematical model attempts to account for the interplay between the number of religious respondents and the social motives behind being one.

The result, reported at the American Physical Society meeting in Dallas, US, indicates that religion will all but die out altogether in those countries.

The team took census data stretching back as far as a century from countries in which the census queried religious affiliation: Australia, Austria, Canada, the Czech Republic, Finland, Ireland, the Netherlands, New Zealand and Switzerland.

Nonlinear dynamics is invoked to explain a wide range of physical phenomena in which a number of factors play a part. One of the team, Daniel Abrams of Northwestern University, put forth a similar model in 2003 to put a numerical basis behind the decline of lesser-spoken world languages.

At its heart is the competition between speakers of different languages, and the "utility" of speaking one instead of another.

"The idea is pretty simple," said Richard Wiener of the Research Corporation for Science Advancement, and the University of Arizona.

"It posits that social groups that have more members are going to be more attractive to join, and it posits that social groups have a social status or utility.

"For example in languages, there can be greater utility or status in speaking Spanish instead of [the dying language] Quechuan in Peru, and similarly there's some kind of status or utility in being a member of a religion or not."

Some of the census data the team used date from the 19th century to present day. Dr Wiener continued: "In a large number of modern secular democracies, there's been a trend that folk are identifying themselves as non-affiliated with religion; in the Netherlands the number was 40%, and the highest we saw was in the Czech Republic, where the number was 60%."

The team then applied their nonlinear dynamics model, adjusting parameters for the relative social and utilitarian merits of membership of the "non-religious" category.

They found, in a study published online, that those parameters were similar across all the countries studied, suggesting that similar behaviour drives the mathematics in all of them.

And in all the countries, the indications were that religion was headed toward extinction.

However, Dr Wiener told the conference that the team was working to update the model with a "network structure" more representative of the one at work in the world.

"Obviously we don't really believe this is the network structure of a modern society, where each person is influenced equally by all the other people in society," he said.

However, he told BBC News that he thought it was "a suggestive result".

"It's interesting that a fairly simple model captures the data, and if those simple ideas are correct, it suggests where this might be going.

"Obviously much more complicated things are going on with any one individual, but maybe a lot of that averages out."


Do these results hold true where you live? Is church membership growing, holding steady, or shrinking? Which churches seem to be doing better - membership wise? Which churches are losing members the fastest? Are as many young people going to church - compared to when you were a child? I'm curious as to what the regional trends are.

Is there a correlation that Morals and Religion becoming extinct at the same time, coincidence it is not.

"Religion" is man made and therefore ... dead.

God, on the other hand, is not dead. If you ever find yourself in a church where God is worshiped in spirit and in truth, you will have found a church that is very much alive and flowing with the spirit of God.

.

Christianity won't become extinct. It will be forced underground, but when that happens, it'll be stronger than ever before. Historically, God has done his best work when men are at their worst. Just because men don't believe doesn't mean that Christ isn't there and He will win. You have no idea how BIG he will win.

What he said. I am NOT religious and would be insulted to be called religious. I am a follower of Christ. There is a huge difference.

As to the original post you can count me in the numbers to have left the so called ranks of religious but my faith has not wavered one bit. I know what I know.

I am not offended by those who do not have faith in God or even a believe He exists. Mostly I see those who do not believe offended by me and would like to deny me my right to believe as I choose. They call me a wacko and and I am the last one to attempt to force my faith on another. Never understood why. But BC, you can give up trying to change me. You and kill me but you cannot alter my faith.

My last word or read on this post.

If Christianity is pushed into the background, the void will be filled. Why do you think Islam is growing as fast as it is. Man is religious by nature. Deep inside he knows there is a God and he must worship something. I do not believe there are true atheists, maybe agnostics, but very few true atheists. God is real, He is alive, and Jesus is coming soon, because man has become self centered and has forgotten God. There is more scientific evidence to prove God than evolution. Man just doesn't want to hear it.

Anybody besides me noticed that athiests tend to be a bit windy?

Interesting. Hard to tell what is true; I think I recall hearing that religious affiliation post 9/11 was at it's highest in a long time. But maybe that only affected the United States, or maybe it has already dropped off.

I wonder what the growing number of Muslim immigrants will do to those statistics in Western Europe.

i figure it cant be dieing out, my sisters that are 23 and 25 who near as i can remember never set foot in church as kids other than for weddings and funerals are both avid church goers now.....which is a tad surprising, 7 years ago i woulda put money on the 25 year old joining wicca or something along those lines......

Yep.

Using just my own personal observations,I've noticed a increasingly large percentage of folks who have found religion up to and through sentencing.

You and I both know that the "after sentencing" period shows a higher percentage. Better for the parole board..... .

George

i could not agree with you anymore , also i love the way you worded that i have been looking for a way to say basically the same thing but could not come up with a way of expressing my thoughts. i will probably steal that little piece of wording .

Matt 24:35: Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

That's because BCBrian has again plagiarized someone's work.He like his messiah has never written an original piece in his pathetic life.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12811197

Link between morals an religion - whoever pointed that out above - pretty obvious.

Islam filling the void - no kidding. People have a need for regligion. If it's not Christianity, it will be something else. Even BCBrian feels a need to fill the void with this atheism.

Will religion die - Christianity's been around for 2000 years now and still going strong in much of the world, except north america and europe. There are a lot of things going to disappear from society before it does.

No new trends here, there the same lying ass hypocritical, backslidin, backstabin bastards they've always been.

Thats why I dont go to church.

Gunner

Pretty well covers it. I went to church for 50 years.

I never pretended I did the research - duh!

I almost always grap clips and post. I'm more than willing to provide sources. Any fool should see I only wrote the intro and the questions at the end.

...any fool

I have no need to read your post, Brian, but will tell you that God loves you.

why?

I'm observing an enlightening, a questioning of Christian and other ideals. I am not seeing it die out, and in fact, many become much more faithful to a higher power.

I, for example, have studied quite a bit. Having a Catholic background, I sifted through that religion until coming to the beginnings, and then before.

There is no questioning that the Catholic Church is a direct descendant of the first Christian churches, but it is still removed from what those churches were.

First, Christianity was never supposed to be separate from Judaism. When it started mixing in with other religions (for example, the Cult of Mythra), it became a separate entity.

The early teachings of Christianity were more of philosophy of enlightenment: Jesus was a man become God, not vice versa, as was later taught.

We're seeing a step beyond the human teachings to the truly spiritual. We no longer need rosaries to enter into spiritual trances. God listens wherever we go -- not just in church. These are just a couple things being realized.

It's akin to the Renaissance after the Dark Ages, but this is a rebirth of spirituality. In another 2000 years, maybe, if we make it that long, we will fall back into religion. It's cyclical.

Josh

I always like to see a liberal squirm when they're caught plagiarizing someone elses work.

The only fool here seems to be you and your belief that you can get away with it.

which allows many of us to think you're an azz Brian!


jk, bud, from what I read here, I think you're probably a good egg

just wanting is all, wanting confirmation by numbers or anything else that you're correct.

you're just the yin to the yang of Christians that do the same thing


but men of faith or confidence don't spend an overt amount of time trying to convince others they are right on such matters.


their beliefs or non belief are correct for them, and that's enough.

Simple enough to insert a link with your post.

Ding ding ding- give that rodent a cookie !

Man kind is placated here (materially) in the Western world and I have no doubt that true Christianity is experiencing a loss of adherents. But in other parts of the world where they don't have so many things with which to fill the God shaped vacuum Christianity is doing quite well.

God maintains His remnant in spite of... and often times as a result of... the worst that man kind can bring against His people.

Sifting through religions is a waste of time when you can go directly to the original source - the Bible. That will tell you everything you need to know about God's love of mankind, our fallen nature, His plan for our redemption, our actual redemption through the death of Jesus Christ, and our hope for eternal life by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.



You have it exactly upside down. Jesus is God and became man.

My, how metrosexual of you....

Understanding your position on this I still wonder...Is this something you are PROUD of? Absolutely NO beliefs that we are nothing more than mere "somehow" 2 rocks colliding, "somehow" turning into water molecules that "somehow" turned into single cell organisms that "somehow" turned into mulitple celled organizisms that "somehow" turned into whatever that eventually turned into fish, Then dinosaurs, that turned into mammals that split into MILLIONS of mammals, that got around to primates. And out of ALLLLLL the primates, only ONE evolved into a homonid, that turned into something halfway in between human and monkey that (I'm getting tired now) turned into "modern day man" ? To each their own. But since you are set in your decision...let me just ask you to pick up or for giggles subscribe to "Creation Magazine". Been years that I've seen a copy myself..but then again, I am convinced, by more than you, I believe that there IS reason to Believe. But not ONLY to believe, but "become" part of Creation. One of the last articles I read had to do with the fact that man AND dinosaurs actually lived at the same times. Man as a whole, has only been here approximately 14,000 years. NOT over millions of years of all described above. What can it hurt ? Go check it out. I'm not gonna tell you you are wrong, I'll let you figure that out for yourself...IF you're safe enough in your decision to look into what I said you still have no threat on your beliefs. Until judgement day that is. And BTW, you did post this, I'm not attacking you...you have doubts or you wouldnt have posted it in the first place

Not saying you're wrong on this but I was taught that Jesus is the SON of God that died for our sins and assended to Heaven after he was murdered. Becoming at one with God and the Holy Spirit.." In the name of the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit"
As long as we are all living for and praising God and his teachings...there is no wrong.

Lots of folks find Jesus at the lowest point in their lives. Whatever it takes IMO.

Were you taught the first book of John? There are many mysteries in the Bible and the Incarnation is certainly one of them. Not contesting your belief, but sharing where and how many of us come to believe that Jesus is God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

Lennons song is about death......imagine being dead!!

Lennon was nothing but a long haired pot smokin punk, spose he did lots of maginin'

Gunner

That's the pearll of the day my friend. What America needs is more God. Look no further than this clown BCBrian as an educator, of all things.

Brian, it occurs to me that you inspire folks on this forum to be more resolute in their faith than anyone else. You truly do the Kingdom of God much good. Thank you!

BCBrian - "religion" is going nowhere. Never has,never will. Religion is neither the key nor the issue.

In general, church participation is higher (% wise) in these parts than it has been for 20 or 30 years. The churches that are bigger and growing are the ones with less denominational ritual, no stodgy doctrinal hang-ups and less formality. They emphasize a personal relationship with Christ as Savior - the need for a daily walk with Him and the experience of joy and hope afforded by this faith.

Those churches that emphasize "good works" as a way to Heaven, social/political action and build their efforts around the "social gospel" seem to be slipping seriously. Full of older folks and not much energy.

+1

Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were put down into writing after the oral tradition had been around for a couple hundred years. There were followers of each disciple here.

The Letters of Paul appear to be authentic.



Not as it was originally taught. This was added later after the early Catholic Church came into being.

The early Christian churches were Jewish. They were temples. The majority also had a temple to Mythra built below.

Mythra's birthday was December 25th.

The Bible is the victim of misinterpretation. For example, "There were giants in those days" came from a misinterpretation from Hebrew to Greek. It properly reads "There were fallen ones in those days."

Further investigation comes to show that the "fallen ones" were not quite human and not quite animal.

Now, this is going to read like the National Inquirer, but I can back it up. Some Biblical archaeologists got to poking around some in the area, and came up with what appear to be human/neanderthal hybrids. Nobody has confirmed that's what they are, but the dating and skeletal features would be about what one might expect.

The Bible is also a victim of re-writes and outright manipulation by the Christian Church to their own ends.

Yes, I believe in God, more strongly than I ever have in my life. I also know not to blindly follow what I'm told, and am reasonable enough to know I'm not going to change anyone's minds, but might make a few angry.

About God -- we have made Him in our images, though, and He is pissed.

Josh

You really are becoming a "Cannabis Derelict", Mister,....

Some of your posts used to make a wee bit of sense.

....Old tired John Lennon blithering ?

Sad,.....

Hey,...get whatever "Epiphanies" jazz your startle centers there, Cisco.

GTC

Hey, just wondering, no insult intended here...

Can you put that in English? Not even sure who you're responding to, Sir.

Josh

And keeping the cheerio intact whilst behind bars. At least for the mooslem converts. grin

Nonsense. Jesus himself refuted that.

... according to the books written down a couple of centuries after his death...

The Old Testament is pretty much intact. The Hebrews saw to that. Heck, they even have counters to count the number of letters in the Torah.

The New Testament did not have that luxury.

This is over simplistic, but it's in line with everything else I've studied on the subject: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen048.html

Basically, you had a man named Jesus who did cool stuff and you and the Mithraic cult. Early Christians and Mithra worshipers used the same buildings, and the two got mixed up. It's not a far stretch at all.

Josh

There are lots of diversions from Christianity, Josh, and you have found one flavor.

It's no secret that December 25 is not the actual birthday of the Lord. That date was selected by Constantine and the church he fostered that we know today as the Roman Catholic church. It was selected either to allow pagans and Christians to celebrate the same main holy day or to spite the pagans and usurp their holiday, depending on which explanation you believe.

The birth of Christ was much more likely in mid-April as evidenced by the biblical passage of shepherds watching their flocks by night in the fields. This only happened in the early spring as the lambs were birthing. Recently an astronomer found an eclipse that occurred on April 17, 6BC, that could have produced a phenomenon such as the star of Bethlehem.

You're at least 50 years behind archaeology. They've authenticated copies of the gospels back to within 1 generation of the originals.

Then we have Luke's own words. He put pen to paper, not oral at all.

1:1 � Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us,
2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eye-witnesses and servants of the word.
3 Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,

+1000

You have so many things wrong in that post that it's hard to see how you could come to your conclusions in any objective way. As Rock Chuck said, you're at least 50 years behind archeology's discoveries. But you're right about Paul -- if his letters are authentic (unless you define "authentic" differently than I understand it), then it's hard to conclude that later Christianity invented the deity of Christ, a belief St. Paul firmly held in the first century.

Some people investigate these things with their conclusion in mind at the beginning.

Steve

And we 'find a specific religion' to fit our own needs and perceptions.

I know that before I became a Christian, I was guilty of the above.
Somehow, though, God helped me to see past my bias? and accept Him as Lord, and I am very grateful for that.

I'm truly glad that I help people of faith.

Thanks to your encouragement - I'll do a lot more of the same. I like helping people! I also enjoy getting PM's from people who are struggling with their faith (or lack of it) and I want to share my own story of how I finally broke away from bonds of the church, the fears that accompanied that move etc.

So - with the blessing of believers - and non-believers alike - you can plan on my continued attempts to elevate science - at the expense of superstition.

Thanks for the encouragement!

Does not an atheist make.

Brian:

You like that song, do you? How about the rest of the lyrics.



Or this.



As a neo-Marxist, I mean. Not just an athiest.

- Tom

The European Economic Community is, an example of, what I think Lennon was talking about. 1000 years ago - till recently - Europe was nothing more than huge collection of warring Kingdoms and Principalities. Now, it is one, more or less a borderless continuum of comparatively peaceful, relatively prosperous states.

In regards to Lennon's other line you quoted - the one about "no possessions" - I've got to admit that I've done extremely well in the "collection of possessions" department. The way I live now - is beyond my wildest dreams growing up. People say I live in a mansion - set in the middle of a wildlife park.

But, I have also come to realize all my earthly wealth can't buy happiness. The only way to be truly rich is to reduce the desire for material things. You can either keep increasing what you want - or you can simply decrease what you think you need - in order to be truly "rich". I think John Lennon, with all of his huge material wealth - understood that.

Here's where I live. As far as you can see - I own. In addition, my own property is surrounded by thousands upon thousands of acres of Crown land that I can hunt on - whenever I wish.


Here's the creek running through the middle of my land. Huge salmon spawn there in the fall - trout live in it year round.


Here's the view from the hill behind me - looking down on my land.


Not too bad - at least, for a "Marxist" - eh?

beautiful Brian


touched by the hand of God for certain


buy hey you knew that

Isn't that the ultimate goal of Marxism? Funny how the state has usurped many of the roles of religion and religion dies out where that happens.

I think you are right Brian. Some religions are dyiing out. In fact, I haven't seen "A Scientific Pantheist who enjoys sharing his beliefs" around here in ... well... forever.

Definitely ahead of the curve. Of course those "ahead of the curve" will be wondering what happened when millions of people disappear. Probably just chalk that up to a massive alien abduction. Then the calamities will come, but I'm sure those "ahead of the curve" will blame at least some of the calamities on global climate change and thank something (don't know what) that those millions of people are gone and not emitting CO2 any more. Some of the rest of the calamities will probably be attributed to the same aliens who abducted the millions who suddenly disappeared. Be careful though when someone wants to put 666 on your hand or forehead - that will probably be your last chance to change your mind on whether you want to be "ahead of the curve." Of course, at that point, it will be easier in a lot of ways just to go with the flow, so it is doubtful those who look at themselves as "ahead of the curve" today will change their minds. Signs of the times.

When the Gov't gravy trains collapse, people will flock back to religions.

So you can imagine no possessions. You just can't bring yourself to follow through.

I understand.

- Tom

Religion seems strong here in the SE. We have some of the largest church's and religions headquartered here.

I was at a Joel Osteen, event in Nashville last Friday night. With it being held at the Bridgestone Arena, where the Predators play. This is the largest seating that N'ville has, which probably holds 4000-5000.

The place was packed, no seats available. His church in Houstan probably holds that many or more. No religion isn't slowing down in the SE.

I've got two Pastors in my Kiwanis Club, a Baptist, a Methodist. They tell me that the numbers are rising in their churches and in most.

Many churches in Southern Idaho have grown considerably the past few years, from what I have seen.

One of them died around here. Down at the county seat a few years back they set up a Jehovia Witness Church. First time I drove by and saw it I rolled eyes and shook my head. They hit the streets trying to recruit members but if what I've heard is true, nobody joined. Not long after the people who started it took down their sign and moved away. Next time I drove by and saw the vacated building I just grinned. Good riddance!

That's because government IS a religion. Gov always tries to pass itself off as parent, provider, protector, of the people and expects in return your loyalty, love and adoration, sacrifice, tithes to be paid, etc. Gov is not merely similar to religion, it IS a religion. Nimrod started the first government. Many people believe he was the originator of false religions. They are correct but I don't think they realize the depth of it.

Won't they be surprised...
there is no government in hell.

The article does not appear to distinguish between organized religion and unorganized religion. I know that England has a very healthy Pagan movement which is usually some type of Witchcraft or Wicca, both of which are very unorganized religions.

Organized religions maybe dying out in some countries but I bet the unorganized religions are going full steam ahead.

My best description of religion is that its a business disquised as a social club. People go because they want to be around others who think like they do and give them support. Of course you have to assume there is something wrong with you and the only was to fix it is to feel bad about yourself and suffer. For those who rush foward to defend their faith, be greatful there are people who have a different way of looking at things. Because, without these people you would still believe the earth was center of the universe . Galileo and Darwin delivered body blows to religion that it has never recovered from or never will. To do this all they had to do is tell the truth and nothing pisses people off worse than to be confused by the facts.

Now THIS is an interesting proclamation. Could you expound a touch?
Unrelated to a certain degree but just curious.... do you believe in man made global warming?

1. It's called fellowship and is doing as commanded.
2. Not everyone is Roman Catholic.
3. It is where I live. ymmv.
4. Religous faiths have always taken body blows and always will.

jus sayin

As far as humans are concerned Earth is the center of the universe. The actual center is really of no consequence except perhaps for a few scientists and their equations.

I believe it was the Roman Catholics who fought scientific truths such as round planet and center of the universe. Shouldn't surprise anyone, they fought a lot of things and did a lot of killing for a thousand years or more. In many ways, they were worse than muslims.

What I meant was that at certain points in time Science has showed the people that they were being lied to. This hurt the credibility of religion. I realize not everyone is catholic but the basic operation of the religions don't vary alot. I don't believe in blind faith or being commanded by imaginary forces. Now to global warming. I was discussing this with a coworker not ten minutes ago. It's all made up and a religion unto itself. Show a sixth grader a chart of sun activity and temperature of the earth and they will make the correct correlation. To bad al gore can't do the same. Of course if he did he couldn't sell you carbon credits. As they say follow the money.

Most people who predict the end of Christianity know virtually nothing about what they're talking about.

Steve

Kinda like how most Christians knowledge of how the Bible came to be written, by who, when, and who decided what to put in - and what to leave out? That kind of knowing virtually nothing?

Most of my own friends (of faith) aren't entirely well schooled in the actual history of the book they profess to believe in. Quizzing them about their knowledge of how the many included books came to be allowed in (and what was left out - and why) isn't a conversation too many of them relish. Learning about all the historical meetings, the theological arguments, the various votes by Pope's, and councils and such. The arguments over translations. With what most of them know - I can't blame many of them for being reluctant to discuss much about it. I guess it can be kind of uncomfortable for some people to be confronted by the actual history that they don't care to know, or, at the very least - weren't aware of.

Brian, you beat Fox News to the story.

Study Finds Religion May Be Heading for Extinction in Parts of World - Fox News

If I can find it, I'll post a link, but I read a study about 3 months ago saying that islam was the fastest growing religion in the U.S. But if you removed the prison conversion population, it fell to the third fastest growing.

That jives with what I've personally observed.

Your comment seems empty. While many people of any faith might be very knowlegeable about the content and teachings of their Holy Scriptures, many or most might not be considered "well-schooled" in the actual history of the writing/compilation of the Book. Your position is in trouble when you apply the term "actual history", for how and by whom do you - unilaterally, one might suppose - arrive at the "actual history"? In these times, no history of the writing of any ancient such work is "actual" - such history is the reduced/amplified sum of accounts composed by human "historians" subject to the same influences, politics, biases, predjudices,illnesses etc. as those whom you want to hold in account for "altering" the content of the Book itself.

Are you actually of the belief that historians all are pure and wholly accurate in what they write? Do you truly believe that there is a pure, comprehensive and "actual" history of the development of the Bible among the writings of humans?

Or, in taking such doubting and demeaning postures, might your defense be that you are going with the best of what you have available and you are willing to believe in that? If so, I understand and it may or may not make your argument worth consideration.

However, nothing in what you write gives credence or puts significant weight on the matter of faith among those who embrace the Bible. You seem to be missing a HUGE point.

If you have such faith in the supposed "actual" historical accounts of the various humans who created the history on which you base your position about how the Book came together, and you feel so good about possibly stumping believers on those same suspicious historical accounts, how can you even pretend to be an intellectually honest person? Given your obvious faith in the "historians", how could you possibly discount the faith of those who believe in and apply the writings in the Bible? Is not their faith more important than your history - especially to them?

Whether or not you might have any real facts to present, your position is undermined from the start by its selfishness and narrowness.

And why would they? Few relish a discussion with someone with an agenda to discredit what they hold precious. Particularly when much of the purported "actual history" is rife with conjecture, assumption, politics and agenda.

I would suggest that the "knowing virtually nothing" my Brother in Christ spoke of has much to do with the understanding of faith. A faith that, though we Christians sometimes can struggle to live for, we would willingly die for. Such a faith cannot be extinguished, though it has been tried and put to that test repeatedly for over 2,000 years. Such a faith will only end when the One who brought it to the world, returns to perfect us and fulfill it.

Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus.

Locally - the parish I've belonged to since 84 built a huge new church. It's about 3 or 4 years old. It's already too small.

IIRC 2000 families belong so that's got us around 6 to 8000 members. Average age at our place is 27. Verified via survey.

1 priest, 2 deacons. Roman Catholic

It's growing round here....

What is the fastest growing religion ? Anyone really know for sure?

Most of the discussions about what books are in the Bible, etc. leave out the most important part of it - the guidance of the Holy Spirit. To a non-Christian, that's nonsense, and intended by God to be that way. But Christians know the power of the HP and how he influenced the early Christians as to what to include in the Bible. It's there because God wants it there or it's excluded because God wants it excluded. Every book in the Bible was written with God's guidance.

Who becomes a Christian? Jesus said that only those who receive a call from God will be saved. But that's not predestination. The Bible says that every man must choose for or against God. The call comes because God knows in advance who will answer and he doesn't bother with those who won't. We all have free choice, but God just knows in advance who will choose life or death.

Amen brother!

All scripture is God breathed, not man made or authored. It is foolishness to fools like yourself who don't believe.

There are only 2 - toward Jesus and away from Jesus. The gap is growing fast and wide. For a while, the away from Jesus religion will seem to win, but in the end, it will be destroyed.

"I have no need to read your post, Brian, but will tell you that God loves you."

God loves you? I don't think the Christian God loves anybody. If he did there wouldn't be a Hell. The Christian God is like the stalker who tells the girl he's stalking that he loves her and if she loves him back everything will be wonderful. If she doesn't love him back he'll just blow her brains out with a 357 magnum. It's exactly the same as God saying that if you believe in him you'll have everlasting life and see all your deceased friends and family when you die (that is if they went to heaven). If you don't believe in him then you'll burn in Hell for eternity. Why doesn't God just smite you if you're a non-believer? That would be better than burning in Hell for eternity. It looks like God is cruel and vindictive. If you are offered eternal life why is the threat necessary?

You come from your father and you go to your father.....who is your father?

Religeous gibberish.

Normally, you get what you pay for, but in the case of salvation, the price is quite meager compared to the reward. Still some, like you, demand it for free. I have no problem acknowledging this is God's playground and His ball. As such, I will also play by His rules, which are both easy and light. Sorry something has put a chip on your shoulder that clouds your thinking.

I had a friend once who was similarly angry at God. His brother died without accepting Him. They grew up unchurched and ignorant about God. My friend learned of the Truth after his brothers death and understood his fate. That made him very bitter and angry with God.

I'm not sure where your resentment comes from, but will pray that it will ease long enough for you to sort things out rationally.

God loves you too.

You've got it all backwards. God does love us all, but we've been naughty. In God's realm, a little bit naughty is the same as a whole lot naughty so we all deserve a very bad punishment. God then said "ok, I love you enough to take your punishment", which he did. It's free. You don't have to do anything for that forgiveness except believe in Him. You don't have to work for it or anything else, just believe.
How can you say that God doesn't love you when he offers to take the entire rap for all the evil we've all done? If you throw it in His face, it's on your own head. God has done it all for you but you have to accept it.

All I know is that our church, Christ the King Catholic Church, is full at all weekend Masses. We're just a tiny nighborhood parish and hold about 800 folks, but we're normally full.

On Holy Days of Obligation, we have to get there a half-hour early, or we are standing.

On Christmas, Easter and Ash Wednesday we normally have at least 900 to 1,000 folks celebrating with us.

This evening was a Lenten Study talk and we simply ran out of room in our Parish Center ... the folks just kept coming. Tomorrow evening, we have another talk and Karen & I will surely arrive 45 minutes early.

We will be adding a $4,000,000 to $5,000,000 addition to the church building and the Parish Hall next year and all funds will come from us, the parishioners at CTK. We are all for it and we will all pitch in, according to our ability.

Honestly, all each of us can do is to be active and work in our own church. I cannot be concerned with a general trend, but simply what is happening to my own parish. As for our local Catholic Parishes, they are thriving. And we, at CTK, are simply growing at an expoential rate.

We've had to add to our Adult Faith Formation and RCIA classes. We've also enlarged our Bible Study. Our problem is not getting parishioners, it's finding the finest teachers and helpers.

But, when you get down to it, the Catholic Church is the original church started by Our Lord. When we read the Bible, which is all the time, the Catholic Church is the the Community of Believers (the Greek definition of a church) that we see starting in the Acts of the Apostles.

In these hard times, maybe folks are getting back to basics ... the wonderful 2,000 year old Catholic Church.

It must totally SUCK to have no faith, no God, no Lord. You lose if you are right and you lose if you are wrong.

I could never be an athiest or an agnostic. Heck, I could never be a Protestant, because I simply see nothing to protest!!! Just count me as a devoutly Catholic guy who loves his ancient church and a wonderful God. I simply cannot imagine another way to go through this life than praising Our Lord.

Thanks Be To God.

Lenten Blessings To All,

Steve

No, Steve. That's when you get down to it.

It is not a threat it is a choice.
It is not eternal life you are offered. We all have eternal life.

What you are offered and the choice YOU must make is where and with whom will you spend your eternity.

Ricky, he speaks of the Roman Catholic church.

Catholic simply means, right, correct, etc.

No, it means universal.

ETA:
That view of Hell as punishment is seen as kind of old fashion these days, kind of medieval. Sure, it's eternal Hell fire, but it's really more like a garbage can than a punishment inflicted. God isn't doing the punishing, the agony is in the (self-chosen) separation from God.

Depending on your perspective,e.g., "that's a catholic idea".

Sort of like,,, a free spirit,,,,or a whore,,,depending on your perspective.

That may be your definition, but Webster and others attribute "universal", or "whole", to the word. First used in the 15th century.

You go from right and correct to whore? FWIW: That's NOT my perspective.

I am SO sorry.

God doesn't want anyone to spend eternity in hell, but he will give us all what we want. In the end, a loving God will hear from the faithful, "Thy will be done." To all others, God will say, "Thy will be done."

Steve

I thought Jack Chick was dead.

Not to me.

I have to agree with that.
I certainly don't believe that God wants to punish us, otherwise why would He have sent his Son to die a horribly painful death on a cross?-because God wants us to be punished? He wants us to be saved, but we have to choose.

Unfortunately, folks like Brian have made the wrong decision.

The sun shines and the rain falls on the just and the unjust.

It would take very little work on your part, Victoro, to get to the bottom of all your doubts and accusations if you really wanted to know.

Very little.

The Lord is a gentleman. He'll not force you. Everything is a matter of personal choice.

Always.

Maintain and fortify your ignorance or seek truth, either way He'll be continually trying to reach you. Right up to the time you draw your very last breath.

I just can't see there being much in the way of choice personal or otherwise when in comes to religion or god. The choice is worship me or be punished for eternity. Demanding loyalty is a human not godly trait. Religion has to demand this loyalty or the flock will flock to another religion and that is bad for business.

Really? Of all He created, humans are the only ones with self will. We have a choice.

If, due to a preconception, you look for ways to discount or discredit the existence of God, you can make it is easy to do (in your mind). In short if you look for ways to justify non-belief, it is easy to do and that is by design.
If you look for the truth and get to know Him, that is also easy to do and also by design.
There is a reason that both choices are easy. Choose wisely.

Appears not.

Exodus 20:4-6

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
KJV

Afterall, we are created in His image and after His likeness. We share the same traits, it's just that ours our corrupt and His are perfect.

Jealousy is a human trait. Why is this in the bible. Because it was written by men not a god. God is a real hero hurting the children of the non-believer for four gernations. I quess all the kids that were/are molested by religious people must have had a non-believer in the family somewhere. Ask yourself would you be the instrument of god and hurt these children if he ask you to and it was you duty to god. I hope not.

Bad comes in all forms of men and priest's and preacher's clothing doesn't hide that. They, too, will get their rewards.

Many create God in their own image of Him, so you are not alone, just wrong.

Religion Extinctions - Coming? Is there a trend where you live?

I would assume, that you realize your question taken literally, could very well qualify as the dumbest question since written history arrived on this planet.

Guessing that might be why you needed umpteen words to point your finger and steer the question your way. Then again, steering questions might very well be a religion also.

I am not creating any image I saying that all of this is made up by men. If god did exist and its alright hurt the future generations of children of a nonbeliever because he is jealous, well bring on the hookers and bourban and reserve me spot in hell.

These threads get drug out to long sometimes and you lose sight of the original question. Yes, religion is and will continue to decline. With actual growth in certain areas, but overall decline. Will it become extinct I doubt it. There will always be people who close there eyes and follow the herd off the cliff.

Let's just agree to disagree with what you've said, ps1080.

Better men than you and I have examined the scientific evidence and disproved that. Just DNA alone, which requires a perfectly operating complex system for any life to exist, proves there is a Creator. A living cell is another example that a complex system makes for life and if one component is missing, life does not exist. Darwin admitted that if life could not come from a simple system, his theory was wrong.

Life could not possible evolve from an ancient exploding ball of hydrogen gas. Life only comes from life.

Sounds good to me. Glad there is something intesting to talk about every once in a while. Although guns and hunting are my prefered topic. You might say I am clinging to guns and religion because guns and hunting are my religion. LOL. Have a good day everyone.

Here's the thing I just can't get my head around.

People say that faith in a Christian God - is a gift. I guess I was missed when that particular gift was handed out. I have found my truth - but it isn't in the faith of my ancestors.

I was raised in a Christian family. My Dad was schooled to be a Lutheran Minister - although he eventually chose another career after his schooling. My Mother was Methodist. I was raised in the United Church of Canada. My parents were wonderful people and we lived rich prayer-filled lives. I even taught the teen youth group for years in church when I first moved out of my home. Familiar themes gave me a kind of security far from home.

But - I couldn't get the logical part of my brain to stop the questions. My brain needed logical answers. I always seemed to think about questions no one in church wanted to answer. I was told in times like that - to rely on my faith. In my case, after over three decades of internal struggle with the many questions I had, I found there was very little of that kind of faith left.

I teach comparative religion to Gr.8 kids as a part of the prescribed curriculum. I've done that now for 31 years. The more I learned about other faiths - the harder it became to believe my own Christian faith had all the answers - to the exclusion of all other faiths. I used to bring in guest speakers from different faiths to enlighten my students as to their own beliefs. To promote tolerance for people different than ourselves. I was struck by the certainty that every non-Christian guest knew their own faith to be the one true one.

That was the same with all of them. Except maybe one Buddhist lecturer - his branch of Buddhism was more a life philosophy than a religion - he said belief in God was optional. But other than him - every person of other faiths absolutely knew the other faiths were wrong - and that theirs was right.

Personally, I found myself doubting the idea of one faith being the only true one. I also couldn't wrap my head around the teachings of a loving God that put children in places where they could only be Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, animists or whatever. - so he could torture them in a lake of fire - forever - after they died. It made no sense.

So, still wanting to believe (against all observations of nature) which showed me that everything alive - dies - I hoped I might be able to see the people I loved after their deaths - and that I might get to live on - forever - myself.I loved that idea - because I do love every minute of the life I live. I became generically "spiritual". A theist, or deist. I wanted to believe in a generic God that could love all children - regardless of what their parents told them to believe - and regardless of where they were born on this earth. I wanted to live forever - no matter how much the idea made no sense to me.

Then, eventually I became an agnostic. I couldn't believe - but I wasn't capable of taking the next step - total disbelief, either. So, I put the whole religious thing out of my mind - and contented myself with the thought that I'd just put all of my efforts into living the best earthly life I could live - and not worry about death - and what might happen after.

Eventually that didn't work either. I'm not one to not have a position. I eventually took the biggest step - and took a position. I became an atheist. I accepted the lack of a God or gods. I also got rid of the idea that there is a devil, demons, angels, spirits and ghosts. It was very freeing.

My world started to make sense - to me. The more atheists I met (and many aren't at ease with "coming out" at least to believers) the more I came to identify with those kinds of people. The one thing I noticed, with the ones that I met, was that, as a group, they were usually very good, moral, people who had come to their beliefs after much internal struggle, introspection, study and thought. None seemed to enter atheism lightly.

But there was a problem. Atheism only told me what what I wasn't. It defined me - by what I didn't believe in. It's been said that atheism is a religion. If that's true - then not collecting stamps - must be a hobby.

Atheism defined me - by what I didn't believe in.

But nothing truly defined what I did believe in.

That is, until my search lead me to Scientific Pantheism.

I had always believed I was part of the Universe. I have always believed that I was part of Nature. I have always been in awe of the power of both of those things. I had a love for the earth that could only be described as thinking of it as a sacred place. I believe I am made out of the same matter and energy as the earth - and of the universe. I look at the earth and the universe with humility, awe, reverence and celebration. I have have have come from it, I am part of it, I will always be a part of it - even when my present form is changed.

I revere and love nature. With the same level of commitment to it - that others find in relics, buildings, altars, prayer and sacraments. I was never fully comfortable in church. I am my most comfortable out in nature - in wild places. Close to the natural earth. It is there that I find answers to my questions and a sense of peace that can only be described as spiritual.

Life is not a path to somewhere else.

Life is the destination.

And so - I am an atheist. It does describe what I don't believe in.

But more importantly - I am a Scientific Pantheist. That philosophy fully describes - what I do believe in.

My earthy faith struggles that dogged me since childhood are over now. I have no more doubts. I have arrived at a belief system that fills me perfectly. It answers all of my questions. It defines my place in the universe. It brings me total peace. Absolute and total peace. All encompassing.

To those who find that sense of peace in their present faith - I am happy for you.

I hope that people with other beliefs can understand the total peace and contentment that I find in my own beliefs - and allow me to share it with the same certainty and contentment that their own faith might bring them. I mean no harm when I do this. Just as I accept the same when people of other faiths share their beliefs with me.

I have never been so content in my own beliefs - as I am now.

I admit that I am guilty of trying to spread my own beliefs - as most other believers do - from time to time. Just as when others try an convince me of their beliefs - I can't help but respond in kind. It is - what I am.

I accept the motives of people of faith who try and share their own beliefs with me. I hope that other people can come to believe my own motives - are the same. We are all looking for truth. I have found mine.

When one find a belief system that absolutely and totally sums up every thought and feeling within you - and answers all of your questions - you have found something incredibly precious.

I have found that.

Until you find "the next thing".

I was talking about religion and the bible being made up by men not life. The neat thing about life is that it can and did come from this exploding ball of gas. The precursers to living cells have were made out of just these components almost 40 years ago in lab experiments(amino acids) proving it was not only possible but probable. I don't have time to look up the specifics so the time frame may be a little off and I don't remember the exact specifics of the gas ect. in the experiments. BTW everyone here should be a fan of Charles Darwin. He loved hunting and catching rats with his dogs. In fact his father basically told him if the didn't take school as serious as hunting he would flunk out. He took several guns on his voyage on the HMS Beagle and used them to collect many specimens.

Well,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,if he liked guns, he needs worshipin.

What I find funny is these atheists always have to start threads against religion......

I have yet to find a religious person starting a thread about atheism...

Seems like there is an agenda....

Buying every part of a Ford truck and dumping it all in a tsunami makes getting a whole truck probable? The difference between a bucket of parts and life is insurmountable, not probable. In the lab, they had scientists deliberately putting the right amino acids together. In nature, it's all by chance. The probability just dropped by in unmeasurable amount.

As Brian says, he's trying to wrap his head around it.
It'll never work. Matters of the spirit are spiritually discerned.

You didn't miss out on the gift of faith, Brian. You rejected it. And you work hard, as is evidenced by your threads and comments, to justify that rejection. That too will never work.

That could be said for anyone - of any belief.

Personally speaking, I know I never had a contentment level - when I was a Christian. I have that now.

I love it when Christians tell me - with certainty - about my life. It's part of the reason it didn't work for me. It's that arrogance.

When the truth (God's word) is absent from people's lives, they can be easily manipulated. There are unfortunately many examples of that in this thread alone.

Christians often promote their beliefs here. Atheists are no different. Neither are Scientific Pantheists.

What's amazing is that you do have a beautiful place where you live, and all that beautiful scenery happened purely by chance . I call that stupidity.

Well then maybe I ought to start a thread about how stupid and wrong atheism is...

Friend Ricky,

Not to be contrary, but you've gotten your date wrong.

The term "Catholic" and "Catholic Church" appears a few times in literature towards the end of the First Century. These were unknown authors, but the term, meaning universal church, was common amongst the folks.

The first notable person to write "Catholic" and "Catholic Church" was Saint Ignatius of Antioch. Saint Ignatius, I'm sure you know, was among the Apostolic Fathers, was the third Bishop of Antioch, and was a student of John the Apostle.

En route to his martyrdom in Rome, Ignatius wrote a series of letters which have been preserved as an example of very early Christian theology. Important topics addressed in these letters include ecclesiology, the Seven Sacraments, and the role of Bishops.

In these letters, Saint Ignatius referred several times to the Catholic Church, Catholic Bishops (Priests did not exist yet, but Deacons did) and the Catholic laity.

The date? 107 AD.


Here is a quote from Kenneth Whitehead PhD, but I'm sure that anyone with a decent Christian library can come up with umpteen sources, all saying Ignatius of Antioch and 107 AD.

"Around the year A.D. 107, a Bishop, St. Ignatius of Antioch in the Near East, was arrested, brought to Rome by armed guards and eventually martyred there in the arena. In a farewell letter which this early Bishop and martyr wrote to his fellow Christians in Smyrna (today Izmir in modern Turkey), he made the first written mention in history of "the Catholic Church." He wrote, "Where the Bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" (To the Smyrnaeans 8:2). Thus, the second century of Christianity had scarcely begun when the name of the Catholic Church was already in use.

Thereafter, mention of the name became more and more frequent in the written record. It appears in the oldest written account we possess outside the New Testament of the martyrdom of a Christian for his faith, the "Martyrdom of St. Polycarp," bishop of the same Church of Smyrna to which St. Ignatius of Antioch had written. St. Polycarp was martyred around 155, and the account of his sufferings dates back to that time. The narrator informs us that in his final prayers before giving up his life for Christ, St. Polycarp "remembered all who had met with him at any time, both small and great, both those with and those without renown, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world."


Ricky, my friend, we Catholics have been around for fully two millenium, that is what we called ourselves and that is what others called us. I totally apologize in advance if that is contrary to your beliefs or what was taught to you from the pulpit.

It is said that "One should never apologize for the truth." But I do, if that is contrary to your belief system. The fact remains that the truth is always the truth.

Lenten Blessings,

Steve

Don't feel special. I love it when atheists tell me - with certainty - about my life. It's part of the reason it didn't work for me. It's that arrogance.

Not arrogance....its facts written in the Bible.

Yep.
If that's arrgance, please file complaints with the author.

RickyD is right. Yes, it's true that demanding loyalty is a human trait -- it's one mark of God's image on us, and it's corrupted. I'll add to that. The whole point is that no human is worthy of worship. Only God is worthy of worship, and we benefit from worshiping him because only then are we rightly related to him.

To Brian's long post I can only say that he isn't alone in trying to reduce God to human logic, but he should know that it can't be done. When someone thinks they have succeeded, what they're really doing is worshiping self. By trying to reduce God to human logic, we're attempting to make God as small as we are. Such a God would be unworthy of worship, and we would easily usurp his place. That's how cults begin.

Steve

I think there may be a misconception here. I think a decline in "organized" religion is occurring, one church is not the one true church, for example, but the belief in God is not. I don`t attend church much at all now, but I believe in God. I say prayers most every nite, and think my problems/shortcomings are between me and Him, with no go-between.
So would you call me a Christian?

I`m trying to figgure that one out myself.

I have never presumed to know anything about you - or how you are with your own faith.

Unlike the many Christians around this fire - who have, on many occasions - told me all about my own life.

Go back and re-read posts posted by Christians about 8 and 13 posts back - concerning me and my life.

If someone started a religion that required you to give up your possesions, worship a god without question and drink human blood and eat human flesh once a week so you could live forever. would that be considered a cult?

Is that "someone" God?
Or is that "someone" merely human?
Notwithstanding your misunderstandings, that makes all the difference.

Steve

Ah, not me. I came from the Mother I go to the Mother. Father's don't have wombs. But than I follow a Goddess spiritual path.

Someone is a human.

I know where your getting at, drinking blood....wine represents his blood.
Unleavened bread represents his flesh..doing those will NOT give one eternal life.
Accepting him as your Savior and baptizing in HIS name will.

Well who got your "mother" pregnant.....?

And what I was referring to was not an earthly father....

Get back to me when they make their own amino acids and elements out of nothing.

It all had to come from someplace or someOne. The Bible tells you where in the first four words: In the beginning God....

Possibly because of the responsibilities involved. Fulltime job, Brian.

RickD
My basic knowledge of sub-atomic particles ends with protons,neutorons, and elelctrons. Things like quarks ect. are beyond my narrow scope of intrest. If you would like I could find some books on the subject that might be interesting (or not) can be fairly boring even if you are interested. It is all however based on observable repeatalbe experimentation. I have read alot on the history of the bible. How the king james bible came to be is really interesting. Nothing observable or repeatable there just what a committee decided and a king approved of.

Brian,

Your place is beautiful! Nice job!

For what it's worth, I to was raised in a church. As I grew up I realized it wasn't for me. While I remain a spiritual person, I have no interest in organized religion of any sort. Including Christian dogma.

I would never try to talk someone out of their faith however. Just ain't worth the time, and serves no one.

One one level, you're right, but maybe you don't know how right you are. Jesus said of the Holy Spirit, "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit" (John 3:8.) It's not us who talks anyone into or out of faith. The Christian's responsibility is merely to tell what he knows, not to convert anyone. That's not our job.

This raises a question I've been wondering about. The 'fire here is pretty open to religious discussion, unlike many forums. It's interesting to see how unbelievers see things so differently from Christian believers. But with all the discussion, have the conversations here ever influenced anyone or played a role in converting to Christ?

Steve

Should God exist beyond the cognitive creation of mankind, what would be more important, ones beliefs? or ones actions?


(Gus has been absent for a few days.)

Obama has a radio spot for the anniversary of the ADA, in it he states "we are defined not by our limitations, but by our potential."

Seems to me a person should be judged by his acts, not potential, not faith, not his beliefs.

I'm convinced that's not the right question. It's a false choice. If one answers "beliefs," then we go all over the map with our view of beliefs. "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder" (James 2:19.) They shudder with fear, so simply believing in God brings no benefit to us.

If one answers "actions," then we fall into the trap of salvation through our own effort, a rejection of God's free grace and a denial of the necessity of the new birth. We in effect are saying we don't need the sacrifice of Christ for our sins.

Avoiding that false choice, a better question is (in simpler language) "If God exists, then what problem does that present us with?"

Steve

So ones beliefs are more important than ones acts?

that's a very good question.

while there are sins of commission, perhaps the sins of omission are more damning?

one good reason for a final judgment, given the outcome, is to consider everyone's input and efforts in determining the final outcome. until all is said and done, who knows who contributed the most?

was the effort a success, and if so, who gets the credit, and who doesn't?

if it wasn't a success, who tried and failed, and who didn't try at all, or at least not enought?

so many questions, and so little time.

No, I didn't say that. Again, that's a false choice. My beliefs are not more important than my acts. Nor are my acts more important than my beliefs. It's not about me.

Steve

I like Blood, Sweat and Tears lyrics better.

Swear there ain't no heaven and I pray there ain't no hell,
But I'll never know by living, only my dying will tell.

Kind of figured that and neither was I.

In a way, reading the discussions on the fire pushed me further away from Christianity( I was Catholic). Not even sure I believe in God anymore though I do believe in a higher being in some form.

Interesting perspective -- I haven't seen anything expressed so unkindly that it would turn a person off, or any efforts to force any kind of belief.

I've always thought that if there is a higher being (to use your words), one who created us and all that there is, wouldn't it make sense that he would, in some way, want to communicate with us? Maybe not with skywriting, but in a way that's more integral to his creation -- such as the heavens declaring the glory of God? And wouldn't he want, in some way, to help us with the brokenness that we all know? Maybe not in giving us a life of ease, but by "the Word" becoming flesh, and dwelling among us.

To me, regardless of the differences among Christian churches, it makes sense that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself" (2 Corinthians 5:19.)

Steve

You mean he only wanted to communicate with some of us.



If I'm to believe what I read, my chances of being saved and gaining entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven are based in large part on luck of the draw. If I happen to be born in the ME, China, Russia or any other country where Christianity isn't the prevalent religion, I'm going to be raised under a different faith and teachings and therefore according to Christians, I'm doomed to hell. The whole argument is so ridiculous and without logic it was hard for me to keep believing.


I mean if there really is only one God,..the Christian God,...why would he only communicate with those lucky enough to be born into Christian countries?

Nothing seems to convince me there is or isn't a God. I think religion and church are man made not 'God' made. They say God created the universe and all in it. Where did God come from? Was he created? Did he come from a 'big bang' or did he evolve? If he was created who created him, who does God answer to?? Which came firas the chicken or the egg.

I grew up in a christian home, Grandfather was a Baptist preacher, always fascinated me that all the church people declared feeling the spirit of god, I was open to it, I got baptised, did all the things others did, I begged God to let me feel the spirit, to feel the wonderful things all the others witnessed about. I got nothing, always felt from an early age that all these people were being hoodwinked by the church, even at 6 or 8 years of age I felt that they were being duped, yet I carried on pretending with the practice to keep the family happy. They all pretended to be happy and blessed with their faith and the road to everlasting life, but I could sense and feel the fear and desperation of their lives of their constantly proclaimed faith, the fear of the unknown, the needy grasping at straws of so called salvation for relief, for a soothing paton the head and affirmation that everythings going to be ok.

I feel no different today 40 some years later. I don't concern myself about it too much though I find it an interesting subject at times. I figure if there is a God he will show himself to me, cause i'm tired of asking, otherwise he will just simply have to put up with me the way he 'created' me. I live a cleaner more honest life than most 'faithful believers'. I don't know or care much about athiests, agnostics, or 'scientific pantheists', catholics, intelligent designers, aliens, baptists, buddhists, hindus, scientoligists, muslims, etc. Life is to short.

Who can't read the creation itself? And when the Word became flesh, he became one of ALL of us.


All the Christians I know trust what the Bible says on that -- "Will not the judge of all the earth do right?" Christians are often accused of setting themselves up as judge, but on this point, why can't non-believers let God be the judge?

Steve

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith�and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God�
9 not by works, so that no-one can boast.

Faith in Christ gets you into heaven. No amount of good works can do that. But then read the book of James. He builds on this by saying that faith without works is dead. Just getting there isn't enough. Christ wants us to put our faith to work, not just sit on it.

Spent the better part of a decade learning how the human body works, cellular physiology, microanatomy, biochemistry, and such. What I've learned shows me that science only proves there is a God. The complexity and intricate workings of our own bodies shows me, without a reasonable doubt, that intelligence was behind it's creation. Argue with me about who is right( christianity, muslim, hindu, etc..) but don't tell me there is no God. To me that is true ignorance or at least wishful thinking.

Are you sure that was the logical part of your brain, or simple rebellion out of control from ego and pride? That's most often the case.

I need to add, you are tremendously blessed with one of the finest properties I have ever seen. A virtual dream. Only overshadowed by your beautiful family. Amazing you're such a bonehead.

Bushrat you said "I was open to it" but the rest of the post doesn't reflect that. Sounds more to me like you entered with doubt and worked to reinforce it. I know you don't believe that right now but you need to adjust the angle you're looking at it. In other words, your perspective. Quit looking for outward evidence and search inside yourself.

"Faith comes by hearing."
"To every man is given the measure of faith."

You heard. Faith came. It's hanging right there in front of you awaiting your next move. (not the other way around) Faith requires action. The action proves your faith. The next step is choose to believe. It's so easy a child could do it. The bible even says it. "Childlike faith."

It all boils down to a decision.
Choosing to doubt and await evidences such as "a feeling" will bring you right smack against a brick wall. YOUR brick wall.

Thanks...I think