Hello all:

I know there is a wealth of knowledge on the 'fire.

My youngest daughter is within 10 days of turning 15. We are a 'dog' family. The time is now. She will be getting "her" dog this June. She wants a German Shepherd. I think this is a pretty good fit.

I would love to have the field narrowed down to three good breeders in the mid-Michigan area (within 100 miles of zipcode 48827). Let her play with the puppies and pick the one that has the best chemistry.

Does anybody have an opinion, informed or otherwise? Good health and stable temperaments are absolute requirements. PMs or responses to the thread are appreciated.

I had heard about these Shepherds years ago when I did quite a bit of business in Battle Creek- they are in Marshall, if that's anywhere near you.
Jim
http://www.24kgsd.com/

I'd reach out to Ingwe if I were you. He is the Grand Poobah about a lot of things, but canines are his specialty.

That, and chili w/beans, whiskey w/ice, everything .270Win, leopard print unmentionables, and the correct attitude of a pinky while drinking tea.

Ed

Just make sure the are tested for hip displasia, the most common affliction of the breed.

They are fine companion animals and can be very protective of their pack (family).

Make sure they have good hips, any breeder worth their salt should be able to confirm.

A lot of good rescues out there too.

German shepherd is one breed where I would absolutely do my homework before moving forward.

I second talking(pm'ing) Ingwe. Talk to people that have working dogs.

Show/conformation people would not be a source I'd consult.

A well bred GSD is one of the finest,trainable,good natured,and protective breeds man ever bred for work.
Unfortunately a poorly bred specimen will generally be over weight be breed design,have poor hips,and possibly a sharp-shy personality(fear biter).
Having owned several in years past that belonged to the better bred variety I must say what you can expect to pay for a good well bred GSD is a price that might stun you.

Just caught this so I'll chime in now..First off I know an excellent breeder in michigan...indeed I'm getting my next dog from them. That being said...not meaning to pop the OP's bubble...but an excellent breeder won't let you show up and pick out your own puppy...they select and place dogs according to temperament, personality of the dog plus the experience and skill level of the prospective owner..
That also being said these are working dogs...and while they make wonderful companions/pets...they also must have a "job"...or they will make you crazy....
I would be inclined to reccomend to the OP to find a breeder who specializes more in companion animals/pets in the GSD arena. It would make a better fit for his situation, and regrettably, I don't know the name of a breeder I could reccomend for that type of dog...
The other caveat I would mention about GSDs...but the OP might have this covered by saying his daughter is a "dog" person...GSDs are dogs for dog people....even the 'pet' variety are a whole 'nuther level of dog from the average breed. You need to "understand" them, make sure your body language and other communicative skills are in place, and be prepared for them to test you every step of the way...they like well defined boundaries but they like to probe those boundaries themselves

I would second most of the advice you've already been given. I would also place emphasis on two points, breeding and handling.

I was a K9 handler for my state Dept. of Corrections for 10 years. After working with and observing several breeds in that time I came to the conclusion that proper breeding of a GSD was more important than almost any of the other breeds. Not that its not important in any breed, but simply, that it was very easy to see the performance, health and ease of training that comes from starting with a well bred GSD. Also understand that within the breed you will find a wide range of temperament and responsible breeders will want to make sure that your family pet is best suited to your family needs.

Make sure your dog gets obedience training and that your daughter is consistent with it. My working dog was hard working, trainable and eager to please. I had him for fourteen years and continued obedience and search work with him after he retired because he loved it so much. Even after all those years together he would still check me to see who was in charge. Anyway, a great breed and wonderful family dog. Hope your daughter gets one she can love for a long time.

We had one growing up on the farm. Great dog. It had the run of a 400 acre dairy/crop farm and 5 kids to play with. 'Bout age 7 or 8 it got hip displasia or arthritis real bad. Then one day Prince just disappeared. We learned years later that my dad had taken it and had it put down. I guess the dog was in alot of pain. I have alot of fond memories of that dog.

What ingwe said. Esp. the part about training.

Not all shepherds are created equal, or even close to equal.

These make the grade

http://www.sapphireshepherds.com/

Brent: Odd you should mention Sapphire...they were my second pic for my next dog..excellent working GSDs...
Wouldnt neccesarily make a good family pet

ingwe, just sorta depends on which pup is picked. If one is honest with the breeder, I think even Sapphire will have a dog every so often. The Sapphire folks know what they are doing and most of their dogs are a bit more than most folks want or can handle (and I'll include myself in that group). That said, they can match people and pups better than most folks.

My wife is the shepherd person.

PS. Not really odd that you would think of Sapphire - you seem to know your way around dogs really well.

It all depends on the breeder and the line you buy. I had two growing up. They were great dogs, but the drawbacks that I observed were that they are highly suspicious of strangers by nature, and this is normal for the breed, since they are valued for that characteristic. My German Shepherds would take several hours of seeing that the family accepted a guest into the house before they'd relax with strangers in the house, i.e., they tend to decide on their own if someone's OK, and don't readily take cues to that effect from their human owners. They are also prone to hip dysplasia. Only one of ours developed that.

I'll third what Ingwe said, and toss the breeder of our females in the ring. Not in MI, but for a fee can be flown anywhere in the USA, we have done it twice.

This is Sascha (Penner/Pinta pairing)


This is Luna (Anchi/Quinta pairing)


http://www.sablerockkennels.com/

Yep...they can match them up...got a freind that runs a Sapphire in agility..great dog, and Ive messed with one in SAR...also a great dog. Beautiful dogs too, if you like that dark Sable Czech junkyard dog look.....I do


Case in point: the father of my next dog, doing a Bark & Hold...



He looks crazy enough, dontcha think?

Why does that shepard have long hair in its ears (BrentD's pic)? There sure seems to be a great deal of variation in the various bloodlines.

DOOOD! I LIKE that Black Sable!! I would abscond with her in a skinny minute!

There is considerable variation in the bloodlines. Difference between working lines, show lines, etc... That dog in Brent's pic is obviously breed for show.

Yeah, he looks a bit crazy. That's what would be an over-the-top dog for me I suspect. Ours is a titch lower keyed. She isn't to be trifled with however. She's better lookin' than most too, but I like the longer coats. Sapphire doesn't and they try to avoid them.

Don't know about that, but I would certainly be willing to breed her with another Black Sable in about a year or so (she is one now)....keep me in mind.

Ive seen long coats on working dogs, but I try to avoid them too..a regular GSD sheds the equivalent of a dog a day...

Keeps the bugs out. Really.

But I can't say that is "why" exactly.

As ingwe mentions - she is a Chek shepherd. Quite different than a german German shepherd and even more different than an american German shepherd. There is a lot of blood line variation, but I'm not up on all the details. ingwe probably can fill in better.

I've always wanted a shepard. Had several family members/friends that have had them and I liked every one of them. I just don't have room/time for a pet dog with 2 hunting dogs and another on the way. Maybe one day down the road I guess.

I appreciate the heads up...but this is the expectant mother of my next dog..



Now that youve seen the father, ya think there might be a black sable in the bunch?

No matter really...the dog gets picked on temperament/performance...

But I do SO have a soft spot for those black faced dogs!

Obviously, you are not well up on these guys. Among her sisters and brothers are some working for the RMCP in Canada and the Israeli military. Show dogs - not a chance.

Indeed, both of my females had German sires and Czech dams.

Obviously, I bow down to your considerable knowledge. I must know nothing of the breed.

Why is that? One thing I don't like is a black faced dog. Had only one - a flat coated. Great dog, but the black face was hard to see and as a result, she had no facial expressions to speak of and was very hard to read. Apparently, this is common in black faced dogs - facial signalling is very reduced.

Got a question for you though, do you work at coming across as an azzhat, or is it just a natural reaction when you don't agree with someone even in a friendly conversation? Inquiring minds and all that.

True dat on facial signaling...but like most dog people, I dont have a valid reason for some likes/dislikes

I am sure however that I like black faces from dealing with a lot of Malinois, which i love, and think are gorgeous..like this girl...

Well, YOU are the one that said, "obviously breed for show".

"Obviously" you did not know what you were talking about. Take it however you want. The facts are the facts.

Obviously, you do not know much where black faced GSD's are concerned. Our Black-faced female has the most facial expressions of the five we own. No facial expressions- not a chance.

Back at you DB. Next time I will make sure to qualify it with a IMO. You should try it sometime, folks might take you seriously.

My female's face is as black as they come and I have no problem reading her. There is plenty of facial expression....except at night at the end of a 30' tracking lead.

George

I think I'll stick to agreeing with ingwe. I suspect he knows a whole more about the breed than you do, and more than me too.

Back to the OP. While I am "obviously" not an expert. I do know what I have dealt with in the 6 GSD's I have had. As Ingwe put it, I know of no breeder that will allow you to socialize with their pups. A Backyard Breeder of course will, but it is a crap shoot there as to what you will get. I learned the hard way on that one.

I am a firm believer in these dogs being socialized constantly. Expose them to small children, teenagers, black and white people. They are large dogs, and you do not want them to be unpredictable in any situation. Confidence is KEY in this breed.

On that, we can both agree.

Because there is a long coat variation that comes about at times from color breeding for black is what I was informed of by a breeder of working GSD's in the early 1980's.
Although a long coat GSD is undesirable characteristic the handful I have seen were used as guard dogs in the commercial area primarily because most people did not want such a dog and they were still very good for the work.
Two of the baddest professionally trained mofo guard dogs I have ever come across was a long coat GSD and a Giant Shnauzer a particular guard dog business owner owned around 1983 I had the pleasure of knowing.

The Belgians are nice dogs, just don't trip my trigger like a black sable though. My cousin has a couple of them. Don't they tend to being about 10 lbs lighter on average than the GSD's?

Depends on the Shep and Mal....take a larger GSD and a smaller "rat sized" mal and there's a bigger differnce (obviously ).

What the lack in size they more than make up for in the speed and single-minded (crazy) drive they bring to the table.

I'll keep my GSDs thanks!

George

Females IMO are easier to handle/socialize in the protective breeds. That's admittedly based on a small sampling, one Rott and GSD I owned, and two of each that belonged to friends, that were well behaved in social situations. None of them gave up anything in ability to protect their people. That's what I'd suggest for your daughter.

GSD's shed a lot, and need frequent brushing, but the smarts make it worthwhile. As much as I liked my Rotts, I'll have another GSD when I retire, and she'll likely have a black face.

All I can say is most Malonois run about 45 mph faster in behaviour than most GSD's and are definitely lighter.
A close cousin for sure.
They are excellent working dogs for sure.

Sounds like my two year old male. He is of American lines. Hyper does not begin to cover him, and can easily top out over thirty MPH, whereas the bigger female gets to about 25-26 (measured by ATV). He also is fully grown at about 80 LBs vice closer to 95 where the older female is.

Every male dog I've ever owned has been super friendly with strangers and every female dog I've ever owned has been highly suspicious of strangers, regardless of breed. Anyone else notice this pattern with dogs they've owned? In fact the sire of one of our German Shepherds was so indiscriminately friendly that someone stole him. Her mother, however, was so aggressive with strangers that she had to be locked away when strangers came to the breeder's house.

I enjoy decoying for other people's mals and handling sheps.

IMHO, I have the best of both worlds.....a 63ish lb. black female GSD. Speed, intelligence, and noneo of the bullchit male hang-ups. Sometimes, she's not as independent as I'm used to. That's a minor issue, though, and not a bad habit alone in the dark.

George

We are on our 2nd GS & she just turned 8.

There's been a lot of good advice here so I won't repeat a lot of what's been said, except to reinforce looking towards a pet/companion bred dog, & I would strongly urge you to get a female.

Your daughter must also be very strongly committed to the dog; as she & the dog both get older, she cannot forsake the dog for her friends or her high school activities.

GSD's are extremely intelligent & want to be with & go with their owners at all times. They are, IMO, the finest breed & the best companions of any breed.......they become the very next thing to human.

Ours goes with us or either of us, whenever at all possible; she is extremely protective of her property, is a better alarm than one from Brinks, will let no strangers approach her without being introduced w/o being overly aggressive.

She went through obedience & command training with us & her manners are impeccable. She is independent enough w/o being a problem & will always obey her commands, even in the presence of other dogs.

Bottom line is, a really good GSD will be fully committed to your daughter & likely your family, but the dog requires & deserves an equal commitment from your daughter & family to it.

I would never really consider any other breed of dog.

MM

Ilsa

Pretty dog. Same color pattern of the two I grew up with.

No, that has not been my experience. As I mentioned earlier, we work at socializing ours, but out of the five I have right now, not a one of them are alike with their personality. They are all equally loyal, but some are more alert, and others laid back. Hate to quote Forrest Gump here, but they are indeed like a box of chocolates . I chalk that up to the intelligence and how you build their confidence. YMMV

My brother has a Czech Border Patrol Shepherd appropriately named "BIG". Jet Black with Mahogany colored paws and lower legs. Just a beautifully built dog . My brother had him professionally trained and spends a lot and I mean a lot of time with him.

Sounds like our late Talimar, the one that hooked us on the breed.

I owned two male GSD's and both were very protective.
I owned two females and they too were very protective,one could not stand my girl friend at the time and had to be watched in her presence.
Both females were so trainable that for me at least they are my preference.

<shrug> If my girl Alexis didn't know you and you approached her, she'd warn you off, but introduce her to the person and all was well. I saw similar behavior from the other two female GSD's. Of the Rotts, I can think of three females (not mine) that I walked up to, said, "good dog!" patted them on the head, and they thought I was fine

Of the four male Rotts I've known, two were teddy bears, one was unapproachable, and my guy Mauser was usually okay, but sometimes touchy. He was also so intimidating that few people ever DID casually approach him!

Old pics from last month, they are both still big pups. Hopefully this Summer they'll get mean.

That second pic kicks azz, Sammo!

My contribution:
"Classic" GSD at work. 86 lbs. of solid muscle and attitude.



Black bitch ready to work.



George

Make sure to get one that you and your wife like. As much as we don't like it to happen - the youngest end up going off to college or starting a life somewhere besides with their parents. Most of the time the dog stays behind. My wife just got her new GSD puppy this past weekend. It was a long search, but looks like she was placed with a good one. (breeder matched dog to her). Good luck with your search and new puppy!

My perosnal opinion.

I strongly dislike the slouched back line that many US bred show GSPs demonstrate! It is purposely bred into the line for show ring looks which gives them a mincing gate. They also have a blander temperament that makes the AKC-ed lines about useless as K-9 candidates. Most police/security forces go to Europe for mor expensive dogs because the AKC lines fail the training so often. The European dogs also are erect postured.

1B

I would never buy from a breeder that would not allow me to pick my own dog. ther is no way he can know me better than me and I know what dog I want from their actions as a puppy. that would be like letting someone pick my wife.

You are right, almost every dog I have owned was a female. they are extremely protective of the Home and family. That being said I have had no trouble training them and seem to connect better with the female dogs. The worst one I had was a male, he just had too much energy when the sun came up he was ready to start the day and being a house dog he made sure I was up with the sun. I sure miss him.

I agree regarding the low slung hind quarters of the American lines. The AKC has a way of ruining any breed they get their hands on.

George hit the nail on the head...Mals are faster and IME hit harder, but GSDs engage their brains a bit more fully, and a lighter GSD like his dog hits harder and faster than the big scary dogs I am frankly hoping for the "best of both worlds" that he mentions in my next dog...
As for the black faces...I never had any trouble reading them either, but I know of a surety the black dogs are always the last to be adopted at any shelter for that reason...
And as for breeders screening applicants for their pups and placing them in the appropriate homes...for working dogs ( not pets mind you..) I would consider it part and parcel of being a "Responsible" breeder. Even my favorite Lab breeder places the pups....

Anyway...this has been a pretty good thread, with some gorgeous dogs pictured...

( I still wanna go steal Sammo's dog...can't believe that one was a stray...)

It took about 2 days to teach Bowser not to screw around or enter the corrals/pens if there is a new calf. He actually looks to see before following us in, haven't had to get on him hardly at all lately.
I have noticed though that he really takes an ass chewin' seriously, almost takes it too personally. The little 'hound' doesn't give a damn but Bowser really seems to care.

We've toned down any disipline bigtime, Bowser just doesn't require a heavy hand when it comes to teaching and we certainly don't want to dampen his 'spirit'.

Maybe I'll take a pic today.

I have found the (good) GSD's will learn just about anything that you care to take the time to teach them..........their learning capacity seems endless.

MM

Did not know that. Thanks for the info. It explains why one of my brothers shepherds has the low slung hind quarters and the border patrol dog is for lack of a better word "LEVEL"

I love dogs !!!! My current dog is a Lab named Casey. Before him I had
a German Shepherd named Ranger. Ranger was a great dog and I still miss him.
Both big dogs but night and day different. Ranger was much smarter
and needed a lot more play time. I never could leave Ranger all alone
for more than 5 or 6 hours. He would get bored and get into something.
Thinking back on it... it was kinda funny... but it was not so funny at the time.

Here's one of my childhood Shepherds (We got her as a pup in '67, and she died in '80). No low slung hindquarters on her. She was a great dog and friend. Lots of happy memories. I think she's munching a bone there.

I've got 2, and won't ever not have one. I got a male 5 or 6 years ago, not papered, but his sire was owned by a buddy's dad in NM and he was a dog killing sob (dogs that came onto his property). My buddy had a pup from him, and he was an awesome dog. Good natured, big, built really well, so when another litter from the same parents came up for grabs I took one. He's been awesome. Had some issues for a bit, but had him castrated and that fixed it. I got him purposefully for protection, to watch the wife and kids while I was gone, both physically and simply the intimidation factor. But if somebody comes to visit, I don't have to worry he's going to eat somebody's kid. [bleep] that, I've no time for that kind of BS. He's a companion and a first line of defence/alert. He's about 95 lbs, and you would not want to make a quick move around my wife if I'm not there. Hell, he'd defend her against me. That being said, if I didn't trust him around my kids he'd already be dead. The only thing with that bugger is he's a cat killing fool. He's got a hell of a prey drive, and very very focused when he's in alert mode.

I got a smaller female from a "breeder" in Great Falls. Whiskey Tango outfit out of a trailer, but she's one hell of a dog. She's my son's dog. Sleeps under his bed, constant companion outside. Gunshots don't bother her, she'll hang out with us all day shooting, or anything. Certainly no Old World $10,000 dogs, and I wouldn't present them as such. If I'd the money I'd love one of those dark Czech dogs, but for me I've done ok with these mutts.

where would one go about finding one of those czech dogs like in the picture? I think i want your dog.

Here

Good notes about the sloping backlines...that seems to be an AKC confirmation thing....you will notice, as many of you have, that the working dogs have level back lines....likewise the usual cream color with black saddle seen on confirmation dogs is pretty rare in working dogs. Since they are selected and bred for work, color etc. is not a consideration.....which is why you see alot of working dogs in black or sable...

I'd still like to abscond with some of the dogs Ive seen on this thread!

My male is very square, and has had no issues getting around. The female is just a smaller version. Every vet I've had him to has commented on how well he's built, as well as some pretty knoweledgable GSD people. Too bad he needed cut.

I'm with you Ingwe, there are some awesome dogs on here.

Well, google up Sapphire Shepherds in Montana and then give them a call. But do your homework.

ingwe will probably know other places that I do not. My wife did the homework on this one.

She is a wonderful dog.


About the trend of sloped backs in American Shepherds, it is interesting to look at the multiple Rin Tin Tins. There is a hint of that trend there. Though perhaps I imagine it

http://www.rintintin.co/com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48&Itemid=53

I like the long haired sable but lacquer blacks are my favorite.

I can't agree enough. My Dad grew up with the breed. I've had one, and I'll probably get another. Mine was smart enough to:

1) Use the TV remote
2) Figure out when his favorite shows were on and turn them on himself.
3) Watch B&W Film Noir movies and enjoy the heck out of them. His other favorites were Lassy (the old ones with June Lockhart, Emergency Room Vet, and Miracle Pets
4) Understand compound sentences, and complex syntax. "If you take your bone outside, I'll give you another one. " He would go get the old bone from another room, and come back in and ask ask for the new one.
5) He learned out to work a deadbolt lock, ring a doorbell and a fence latch on his own.
6) "I'm thinking of a bagel this morning." to KYHillChick elicited a response of having him run to the door and wait for me to finish dressing and let him out. He knew we were out of bagels and anticipated me driving out to get some.





He died in 2006. There's a ride I have to take every spring, listening to Keith Jarrett's Koln Concert-- it was the road he and I used to take to town on a regular basis. It was on that road one day during turkey season that I found I could call out "Cows on the left!" or "Horses on the right," and he'd understand and respond accordingly. He barked at cows-- they were food. He whined at horses-- they were potential playmates.

I am not in your area so not sure there are any organizations out there, but I would like to suggest you check into a GSD rescue.
I adopted a 2 yr old from a shelter out here in MT, and scored a good one. GSD's can be a hand full if not properly handled, but they are, in my opinion, one of the best, most loyal, breeds you can acquire. Get a good one and you will have a treasured lifelong companion. It is all I will ever own.

Still just a big puppy.
He's good around everything now, cats, calves, horses, just gotta keep an eye on him because he likes to hide under the pickup if a cow gets after him.

That dog's a beauty, Sam.

Where can one get good training information? Any DVD courses out there worth a darn?

My wife's 12 week old gsd is at puppy obiedence class as I type.

What to do after the basics are done is the type of info that I am looking for. Thanks

No hard and fast rules here Dan...it all depends on what you want the dog to become...but as someone mentioned, socialization is the BIG key..get the dog out an exposed to EVERYTHING...kids, cats, crowds,vets offices you name it...

Sammo, I know you don't know it or realize it, but that is a damn valuable dog!

I didn't know it was valuabel but I knew it was one exceptional looking dog.

Judging from the appearance, there is no doubt the dog came from honest-to-God working lines...and they cost a bundle....

Would have been some high dollar stew, eh?!


Still has his nads.

Sammo..I'm not kidding...if you went to one of the aforementioned breeders in this thread, he would run about $2500..as an untrained pup...

anybody know anything about these people? Surprise az is not far from me
http://www.jinopo.cz/main.php

Yep...a little...the father of my next dog I posted earlier is from those lines name is Body-Jipo-Me...

Their affiliation with Alpine is a good thing too, cause Alpine has a good name in working dogs...

Don't know what you are looking for, but these are not pets..they are working dogs, and you'll need to do something with them to keep up to them...

Yowza!


I would really like to know just where he came from, of course around here who knows.


How old before he starts barking and defending his turf? Seems like most random pups need to be at least a year old before they show any 'mean'. Guessing Bowser is 9-10 months old now.

Any time now...might be good to not let him bark...then again, many take it upon themselves to be quiet when a stranger approaches...they learn barking scares them off...meaning they won't get the chance for any close-range intimidation

Laughin'!


Our old heeler dog would lay under the pickup and come smokin' out snappin' and growlin' and scare the chit outta people. Actually put a little bite on Grandma one day. She wasn't impressed but my dad thought it was fine....grin

Bowser very rarely barks. His hair stands up on end and he gets worked up when the yotes howl around though. He's already faster than hell at 3/4 throttle, really long stride. Don't think a yote would stand much of a chance if Bowser caught one out in the open.

Remember this Sammo...bird dogs like to [bleep] with birds...


GSDs like to [bleep] with people ....

Sweet!

Had a neighbor years back who had a BIG Bouvier that was just like that. "Ted" was a coooool dog, and knew he was badass.

Bouviers can be badass...faux shaux!

This one got his teeth into an intruder..

Certified neighborhood hero.

Gotta love that!

Guy hopped onto a balcony and went into a sliding door. Ted let him get in about ten feet before he started tuning the guy up. At least that's where the blood and bits of clothes started. We all figured ted was peeking around the corner just waiting for him to get in far enough to ensure success.

A pard's GSD did something similar in Houston...

Dog at home, doing her job...guarding the house...bad guy breaks ground floor window...dog waits quietly..

Bad buy sticks his head in...120 lb GSD grabs him by the face and pulls him inside for a thorough azz-kicking. Blood and schitt everywhere, coffe table shattered, glass busted etc...
bad guy manages to get away...

My pard comes home, finds a REALLY happy dog and a REALLY big mess and calls the cops....the perp was quickly found in the local ER...checked in for repairs

I got an education once about protection trained dogs - one year at a gun show in Dallas, they had an area where some trainers were showing the training routines. Out comes a Giant Schnauzer, black, with the foo-foo haircut, cheerfully greeting the crowd, being petted by strangers, then he's led into the roped off area and on command chews the heck out of the guy in the bite suit. Several people were staring with mouths open, as they were just petting this dog that was now a serious fighting machine. After he was called off, he was back to being a lovable dog. Very impressive, but he still looked foo-foo.

Dats what we call an "on/off" switch in the biz...a good dog has it...




Frinstance...I had this dog kickin' my azz on the Schutzhund field and ten minutes later, inside on the couch, she is shoving some ridiculous stuffed toy in my face, trying to get me to play

Somehow I'm reminded of Richard Pryor's Doberman..."You can't leave now, I want to PLAY"

Yep very educational for me

Friendly as he was, however, I did not tell the Giant Schnauzer he looked foo-foo.

It is truly what makes dogs like that fun!

People look at me like Im crazy when I tell them such and such dog kicked my azz...and is a REALLY nice dog!

not all birddogs just hunt ask the guy that broke in my house with a 80lb germanwire sleeping in my chair. lost a little blood he did from what showed on the living room hallway and bedroom oh and window he went out.

I'd forget about the German Shepherds and find yourself a good Mexican Shepherd like Luke:

[img:center][/img]

They are the perfect dogs for females and this particular Mexican obeys and sticks to my wife like glue.

Socialize...you will thank yourself later...:)

Now that it friggin' FUNNY!!!

Is he legal?

No papers...:)

picked him up behind bars as a stray pup in Cadillac

ICE will be lookin' for him. Better hunker down or move to California.

You mean you found that dog? Nice find.

Back in the early 1990s, my dog squad (one male Doberman and one female Pitbull) had an interesting encounter with an intruder. They had their own doggy door from the house into the fenced in backyard. The gate to the yard was locked. The electrician decided to come a day early, because he happened to be in the neighborhood, to install the new pool heater. He rang the doorbell and found out no one was home, but heard and saw that the dogs were secured in the house, so he figured it was OK to go into the backyard to do his work. He found the gate locked tight, so he climbed it. The dogs saw him, however, through the sliding glass door, stormed through the doggy door, and ran to him at top speed. The Pitbull grabbed his pants and started pulling him to the ground. The Doberman was the leader, however, and hadn't yet decided that violence was called for, so he grabbed the Pitbull by the collar and dragged her off. The electrician figured that was his cue to leave, but when he started for the fence, both dogs charged him again, and the Pitbull again grabbed his pants, but the Doberman again grabbed her collar and dragged her away, making his point more forcefully this time, getting between the Pitbull and the man, not letting her near him. The Pitbull now decided to keep her distance and stay out of it. The man once again figured that was his cue to make for the fence, but the Doberman wouldn't have any of that. He ran in front of him and blocked his path with a very serous and guttural growl while baring his teeth. He wanted him to stay put till the humans arrived home, but the man started taking small backwards steps to make gradually for the other side of the yard, eventually, after a long while, making his way to the fence and then a quick jump for it and over.

He reported in detail those events to us the next day when he showed up for his scheduled appointment.

My protection trained Doberman was just like that. Loved anyone he was introduced to, but would attack on command.

these dogs are just flat impressive, i have always had golden retrievers, but i am definitely waiverig, discussed this with the wife last night and she said she was afraid the czech would "munch" on her.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWEtyDJCOsc&feature=related

Hello all:

Original Poster here.

Thank-you for all the input. I will be sharing this with Mrs. Mama because, as one poster stated, she is in the mix as well.

It sounds like:

-Female
-Short hair
-"off colors" are very ok
-AKC may be a better social fit
-Personally, I think the sloping back is as attractive as sagging pants.....maybe it is my livestock orientation but I like straight, level backs.
-X-ray the hips
-Make sure all family members spend time socializing with the dog each day
-Work is good
-Exercise is good....maybe I found my running buddy.
-Excellent dogs can be found behind the bars in Cadillac....good fishing as well. How are the dogs in Mesick, Irons and Brethern?

Did I leave anything out?

Just a minor tweak .

Also, I'll add to the socialization aspect as it's one of my mantras with handlers (harp on it for the new, reiterate for the experienced).

George's Rule #18: Get thouself to as many dog parks, pet stores, malls, etc. as you can.

Socialization is just one tiny baby-step down from obedience in "must haves".

George

O hips....

An xray pf apuppy is a good idea but it is just as napshot of the current status. Good to have, but no insurance against problems down the road with growth, aging, traumas etc.

Having a record of the parents' hips gives you a much bigger comfort zone and thus reduces the crap-shoot odds a lot but again there are no guarantees. In my book that is one of the best reasons why I would deal with a reputeble bteeder.

1B

I was told by a Vet's assistant that there was a good breeder of flat-backs in the Cadillac "area"--she postulated that is where the Mexican saddleback probably came from.

can check if you like...

Running-wise they are fantastic companions...they do tend to stick to the plan, so vary a bit. By socialize I meant taking it out in public to be around strangers so the dogger socializes with other humans and not just its pack. That is what we did, anyway.

I would never worry about him lighting up if the time came, no matter how metro he got...:)

FWIW, IMO, if it is to be daughter's designated dog, it may help the bond between them if she feeds/snacks the dog and also runs the dog.

[img]http://s1060.photobucket.com/albums/t460/JoeMama602/[/img]

Hello all:

Thank-you for the help you gave me back in March. Here is the new addition to the family. He just had a bath.

Beautiful pup. Congrats!

Tell us more!

I had a GS once. She was OK but nothing to write home about personality/smarts wise. My mother in law has a purebred shepherd now and I hate the [bleep]' thing with a purple passion. If it wasn't hers, I'd kill it with a rock in a heartbeat without a second thought. The best thing about that dog is I just got a mongrel half breed beagle/pitt cross that loves to beat the schitt out of it at every opportunity and it's funny as hell watching that stupid shepherd TRY to dominate Bubba over and over and get it's ass kicked over and over.

That's a dandy.

Nothing like being adopted by a puppy.

.Got here late.You got a learning curve ahead of you.Most trainable dog I ever had is Shadow my GSD.Her name describes her.They have a lot to learn but learn easily.Shadow was so possessive at first.She would protect me from everyone.She had a lot to learn but got very smart fast.You got to teach them their place,that is their job.Hope you like dog hair.

I've been around quite a few GS and find them to be really intelligent, protective and loyal dogs. But then again, every breed spits out a clunker now and then. Especially humans.

Whatcha tryin' ta say there [bleep] boy ? Don't be shy now, spit it out.

Been drinkin' again Blackheart?

Yessir, but I still know when I'm being insulted by an inferior being on my worst day. Drunk or sober I don't much care for shepherds.

We always had a GSD when we were growing up.
One in particular the founder and chief trainer for the NZ police dog squad wanted to breed, he about kicked dad in the nuts when we told him she was spayed, it was a requirement in our town to own a dog that they had to be desexed, he said if we had shown her to him when she was a pup he'd have personally written an exemption for her.
She was a smart dog, she used to share her biscuits with my horse and would mother any new born animal no matter what it was. She also got us in trouble because she'd take fruit out of the fruit bowl, bite a piece out and eat it then put the rest back.
We had her chained to her kennel one night when she was 6 months old, the kennel was 4 foot high, 6 foot long and 3 foot wide solid wood. Someone tried syphoning gas out of mums car and the dog dragged that kennel across 20 feet of concrete so she could get out the gate and near the car.
Another night we had a bunch of wannabe tough guys partying on the sidewalk and causing a ruckus, they'd already broken the neighbors fence when dad went out to see what was going on. The neighbor was on his front porch with a golf club telling them where to go and one of these guys was trying to sneak up our drive to come up on his blindside. Dad spotted him, told the dog to get him and let the dog go, there was one bark, one scream and a trail of blood down the drive. The guys scattered and left their beer laying.
She lived to be almost 20 when her hips gave out.

A GOOD GSD is about the best dog you can have, as long as YOU make sure you're the boss.

Dad is now involved in the police dog puppy rearing scheme here, they adopt a puppy and raise it till it is old enough to go into training. The police pay for all the costs and you have to provide a disciplined and caring home for the pup.
They are also part of the breeding scheme where you are given a dog to care for till she is due to be bred, then they are passed on to the breeding center.

As with any high energy and powerful breed, make sure that the pack leaders are ready to assert dominance on the dog. I know this has been said several times, but I just don't think you can underestimate the importance of a strong pack leader(s). Being able to read the dog is paramount as they will have no trouble reading yours.

It helps to have a booming voice too.

A properly applied frozen pear to the forehead works wonders too. The MIL'S stupid mutt cowers whenever I look at her crosseyed ever since then. She still tries to dominate eveyone and everything else in her realm constantly though. It will end up being the death of her if she ever pushes Bubba too hard when nobody's around to pull him off and she just ain't smart enough to realize it.

Litter of 6. 7 weeks old.

Daughter absolutely unbending on wanting a male. Daughter thinks girls "smell".

Runt and lazy one went back in the crate. The lone female was gone on our second visit. Fuzzy, long haired pup (hair irritating eyes!) went back in the crate. Of the two remaining, suitable pups, daughter picked on chemistry.

Momma half blonde with black saddle. Dad almost full sable. Momma very friendly and mellow and three years old. She was pretty long and lean looking but that may have been due to milking out. I would guess she weighs 60-70 pounds but guessing GS weights is not something I am that great at.

We saw the dad but did not interact with him based on owner not wanting to take the trouble to introduce us. I saw him through the window. He was a good barker. He is 4 years old. It is hard to estimate his weight because I did not get my hands on him. He seemed to be 'standard issue' for height.

Major miss was lack of hip X-rays. I may regret that but two parents looked OK at 3 and 4 years of age.

These are not working dog lines.

I was agreeing with you, but if you wanna' go and create a pizzing match on someone's happy thread over a misunderstanding, maybe you're the inferior [bleep].

Apologies to JoeMama for any discontent I have created.

Daughter has had several over the years and one Belgian Mal, all have been GREAT dogs, very loyal and protective. The Mal and two others were working police K9 dogs, the rest very nice pets and smart as a whip.

Hope ya have many years of enjoyment out of that good looking pup Sir.

Sorry then sir, guess I misunderstood. My sincere apologies.

No problem. After rereading my OP, the last line in particular, I can see how it could have been taken the wrong way. No harm, no foul.

GSD's want to learn their place.They want to know their job.They want the owner to teach them where their place in the family is.This is their identity.Its the owners job to supply this.They will look to you for it.

Thank's, you're obviously a man of good character !

I do realize that much of what I find objectionable in my MIL's shepherds behavior is her fault due to lack of proper discipline/training. Still, I find shepherds tiresome due to their high strung and dominating nature.

You are right.Without a leader they would be a mess and not happy.

Great dogs. Highly intelligent and a great companion, I still miss my last one but have held off getting another until I get a place with a little more running room for it.

I feel for you.Companion is the right word.Shadow lies down next to my chair.She walks me to the door when I leave and waits.She sleeps on the floor next to my bed ect.If I am asleep she will lay there awake till Im up.If any movement or sound she has a very low growl telling me to wake up.My sister visited for a while and told me how Shadow was when I was asleep.

I think the shepherd dogs are great. I have had the Belgians in the Tervuren and Sheepdog varieties. I have had three so far, two Sheepdogs and one Tervuren. I go for the long coats due to the harsh winters up high in the Colorado Rockies. One of my old Belgian Sheepdogs was at home and having my neighbor feed him when I was on business travel. I got home to find that a window was totally pushed in frame and all. It was found by my neighbor the next day. A bear had tried to claw open the window (claw marks in the wood) then bashed the window in. My Belgian sheep dog certainly kept the bear out since it never got inside. Shadow is gone now, but I have a female Sheepdog and a male Tervuren. Here is the male, Larsen. He is very suspicious of strangers, but I can command him to sit if needed.

Tervs are highly underrated dogs and highly overlooked...not manic like a Mal, and versatile like a GSD..


To the OP...good on you, you will have a ball with that dog. Getting one from working lines and not being familiar with what that means is a train wreck waiting to happen...lotsa good pet GSDs out there with lotsa good GSD qualities...keep posting pics!

Had two shepards great dogs tend to be family protective a good point in my opinion. Both of my shepards were the most obedient dogs I've ever had. One was about average size about 78 pounds. His son was well above average size at 140. Miss those dogs.

Have a good vet check the hips closely.