This article by David Frum, former Bush-43 staffer, is an excellent perspective on the realities we're likely to face in the next 4 years.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/12/opinion/frum-conservatives-despair/index.html

I realize that most of the clinically depressed conservative-politics denizens of the 24HCF will reject Frum's thesis out of hand because it was posted by CNN. Too bad, I can't fix your brain unless you come to see me and allow me to prescribe you drugs, and even then, you may be beyond help.

But for those who are able to let down the hammers of their temple-aimed revolvers long enough to read the article, I suggest that you pay close attention to the part I've highlighted in bold. Therein lies the key to a lasting resurgence of conservatism in the United States.




Washington (CNN) -- The mood among American conservatives is now one of apocalyptic despair.

Having convinced themselves that this election arrayed freedom against tyranny, they now must wonder: Did their country just democratically vote in favor of tyranny?

On Fox News election night, BIll O'Reilly explained the meaning of the election: the "white establishment" was now outnumbered by minorities. "The demographic are changing. It's not a traditional America anymore." And these untraditional Americans "want stuff. They want things. And who is going to give them things? President Obama. He knows it, and he ran on it."

O'Reilly's analysis is echoed across the conservative blogosphere. The (non-white) takers now outnumber the (white) makers. They will use their majority to pillage the makers and redistribute to the takers. In the process, they will destroy the sources of the country's wealth and end the American experiment forever.

You'll hear O'Reilly's view echoed wherever conservatives express themselves.

Happily, the view is wrong, and in every respect.

America is not a society divided between "makers" and "takers." Instead, almost all of us proceed through a life cycle where we sometimes make and sometimes take as we pass from schooling to employment to retirement.

The line between "making" and "taking" is not a racial line. The biggest government program we have, Medicare, benefits a population that is 85% white.

President Barack Obama was not re-elected by people who want to "take." The president was re-elected by people who want to work -- and who were convinced, rightly or wrongly, that the president's policies were more likely to create work than were the policies advocated by my party.

The United States did not vote for socialism. It could not do so, because neither party offers socialism. Both parties champion a free enterprise economy cushioned by a certain amount of social insurance. The Democrats (mostly) want more social insurance, the Republicans want less. National politics is a contest to move the line of scrimmage, in a game where there's no such thing as a forward pass, only a straight charge ahead at the defensive line. To gain three yards is a big play.

Obama's second term agenda

Whatever you think of the Obama record, it's worth keeping in mind that by any measure, free enterprise has been winning the game for a long, long time to this point.

Compare the United States of 2012 to the United States of 1962. Leave aside the obvious points about segregation and discrimination, and look only at the economy.

In 1962, the government regulated the price and route of every airplane, every freight train, every truck and every merchant ship in the United States. The government regulated the price of natural gas. It regulated the interest on every checking account and the commission on every purchase or sale of stock. Owning a gold bar was a serious crime that could be prosecuted under the Trading with the Enemy Act. The top rate of income tax was 91%.

It was illegal to own a telephone. Phones had to be rented from the giant government-regulated monopoly that controlled all telecommunications in the United States. All young men were subject to the military draft and could escape only if they entered a government-approved graduate course of study. The great concern of students of American society -- of liberals such as David Riesman, of conservatives such as Russell Kirk, and of radicals such as Dwight Macdonald -- was the country's stultifying, crushing conformity.

Even if you look only at the experiences of white heterosexual men, the United States of 2012 is a freer country in almost every way than the United States of 1962.

Obama has changes in mind that conservatives and Republicans will oppose. He will want to raise taxes, he will want to sustain social spending at a permanently higher level, he has in mind new regulations over health care, energy production and banking. He'll win some, he'll lose some. To the extent that his wins prove injurious, future Republican Congresses and administrations will struggle to undo them. That's politics: a contest that never ends, and in which the only certainty is the certainty of constant change.

The Republican challenge next is to reassemble a new coalition for limited government and private enterprise. That coalition must include Americans of all ethnicities. To assume from the start that only certain ethnicities will contribute, and that others aspire only to grab, is not only ugly prejudice; it is also self-destructive delusion.

People of all backgrounds want to create, save and contribute to society. A party of the center-right should make them all feel at home, regardless of how they pronounce their last name, the complexion of their skin or the way in which they express love and build family.

The Roman Catholic Church deems despair a mortal sin. To abandon hope is to reject the reality of goodness and to forswear future action. The United States is a great and good country, and it remains great and good even when we do not get all our own way politically. The United States is a tolerant and free country, which means that there are no "tipping points" beyond which it becomes impossible to correct mistakes.

Fifty years ago, Marxism was still a live intellectual force in British universities. Marxists taught that human society must inevitably evolve into a socialist dictatorship of the proletariat. The great British conservative historian Hugh Trevor-Roper scoffed at this arrogance. He said, "When radicals scream that victory is indubitably theirs, sensible conservatives knock them on the nose. It is only very feeble conservatives who take such words as true and run round crying for the last sacraments."

We need more sensible conservatives. As for the feeble conservatives, they should take a couple of aspirin and then stay quietly indoors until the temper has subsided and they are ready to say and do something useful again.

LMAO...


Good luck with all that... Conservatives are dinosaurs, and definitely in the minority...

No despair here - just facing reality; we're now a socialist nation.. How's that worked out for every other country?

I never knew 'freer' was a word. I would have used 'more free'.

Learn something new every day.

Travis

This conservatives' despair lasted about 2 days and was then replaced with fierce determination and grim resolution. I refuse to let the election results feed on my will to enjoy life to the best of my ability.

Am I worried about our future? Hell yes, but I'll face each challenge as it comes the best way I know how.

Fug a bunch of moronic liberals.

I'm getting a can before they're illegal.


Travis

Thank you Doc. Good article.




I do believe our country will continue to decline under the weight of our government but I don't share the same opinion of my fellow Libertarians on the speed of the decline. I also don't buy into what I perceive to be the irrational fear of both sides of the isle that electing one side will push us at any noticeably faster of a clip into the abyss.


I just know for myself, I'll never let a political party or politicians dictate my happiness or curb my dreams. I'll work around the constraints placed on me and give government a big middle finger as I live how I want to the best of my abilities.

There are great big freaking racks around Freer (Texas) Travis.

PS. Calm down, Travis- White tail deer racks.

I'm rejecting Frum's analysis out of hand, but not just because it was presented by CNN. David Frum is an idiot. He states as fact all the things we know to be false. He ascribes good where evil exists, and pushes a Pollyanna world view that is patently wrong.


that is fundamentally wrong. There are HUGE benefits arising out of membership in select sub groups of Americans.
It is only going to get worse, so far as 'white people' goes.
The 'recipient class', largely black, hispanic, female and uneducated, does not pass through stages of making and employment. Those folks by pass those steps, and proceed directly to 'taking'
The trick now, is to, on an individual basis, do what we can to lessen the impact on us as persons.
The government is indeed, the enemy. Our fellow Americans are truly the enemy.

Political pundits are now psychologists, as they need to create a vision different then all the other pundit/psychologists to sale their wares.

Reality is simple until the next reality replaces it... most keep a fairly even keel and the minority will cry to any that will listen.

Kent

I am now like the country folk I saw in RSVN, leave me and my rice paddy alone & I won't say anything!

I'm in total agreement with your thoughts of late.

A week before the election it wasn't all doom and gloom but one or two days after suddenly we're a socialist country composed of takers.

BS!

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Hussein won by the narrowest of margins and his ilk can be defeated in coming elections. Nothing is set in stone.

I got to shoot a couple different .22 semi-auto pistols with cans back in October. Pretty fun, but not as quiet as I expected. Still a worthy goal, though. I really like the thought of one screwed onto the end of my HB 10/22.

I don't like the $200 bucks in fees plus the 3-4 hundred bucks that both of my buddies each paid for theirs.

But I always prounounced that like fear. "FREAR".

I read the word freer to read 'free-er'.


Travis

Cans are fun? Thanks and GFY Captain Obvious.

This one is for my American Rifle. Little more expensiver. But at least I'll feel more freer.


Travis

If I could afford a good can and the tax it would live it's life on the dangerous end of an AR with a 300 Blackout upper.

A great post on how best to deal with this Gotterdamerung. As for Frum's piece, I have to respectfully disagree. It's a different country. Since the 1970s 85% of immigrants to this country have been from the Third World and uneducated. If you take a look at the Cuban Migration, there is for the most part, a distinct difference between those who came over before 1980 (political migration where the gaining country gets the cream of the crop for obvious reasons) and after (economic). Sure there were many (still are) that come over for "freedon", but let's face it after Mariel, the majority came over for economic gain. The Cuban vote this time around while still heavily Republican, clearly shows an inexorable shift to the democraps.

If I could afford a jet it would be p i m p. And I would shoot at birds with a suppressed machine gun.

In the scheme of life, one could take otu a part time job to get teh 1200 or so it costs for a can.... and another 600 or so for the upper....

It all depends on whats important in ones life. Doesn't make anything out there cheap or unaffordable, its all simple priorities.

Yeah.... how'd that work out for them?

Interesting article Doc. I do feel that seeing the takers/makers thing in the stark ethnic contrast that many here seem to espouse is utterly wrong.

Like it or not, a Republican Party built around angry, white, racist, warmongering, Bible-thumping males is an anachronism that has thankfully run it's course. I too welcome with wide-open arms a resurgence as a fiscally responsible Party focused on the business of business.

However the most pressing issue bar none is getting the finance sector's dick out of our collective asses, while our politicians stand by with tubs of AstroGlide. Pardon moi French.

LMAO.. And your arms will remain wide-open, and rather empty...

The takers don't want 'fiscal responsibility'.. They just want more of whatever YOU have earned..

Deaf ears to that around here.

The presented facts are correct but the conclusion is laughable. The Code of Federal Regulations exceeded 163,000 pages in 2009.

A good article.

It proves one thing I've been saying all along, perception is reality and reality is the truth. Team Obama did a better job creating perceptions than the Team Romney did so Team Obama won.

As to limited government, that's over and has been for sometime. Limited government means less power for politicians and no politician or government is ever going to reduce it's power. We the People don't want a nation state with a government that has limited power for if we did Ron Paul politicians would be elected instead of being made fun of and called kooks and crazy. We the People want a bigger government to regulate every aspect of our lives from cradle to grave.

The next president, no matter the party, will be the one who can create the best perception as reality and truth and is willing grow government even bigger. A president who was great at creating perceptions and growing government was Ronald Reagan.

There's a disconnect in there somewhere.

No disconnect. If you study the perceptions that Team Obama created about Team Romney it's no wonder that Team Obama won. If you Republicans can't see that than you guys will never win another presidential election.

Perhaps a moment to reflect on what other countries have to say about the extension of the Kenyan Kid`s term in office.
This quote came from the Czech Republic. Someone over there has it figured out. It was translated into English from an article in the Prague newspaper Prager Zeitungon:

"The danger to America is not Barack Obama, but a citizenry capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency. It will be far easier to limit and undo the follies of an Obama presidency than to restore the necessary common sense and good judgment to a depraved electorate willing to have such a man for their president. The problem is much deeper and far more serious than Mr. Obama, who is a mere symptom of what ails America. Blaming the prince of the fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of fools that made him their prince. The Republic can survive a Barack Obama, who is, after all, merely a fool. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools, such as those who made him their president."
Joe

Doc, respectfully, you're just as much in denial as a lot of the guys who have the guns to their heads. Thus, your lack of desperation/depression, is a false one. There are times when desperation and depression are appropriate responses. They may or may not be productive and they may or may not be counter-productive, but appropriate, nonetheless.

What you've got is one side that thinks everything can be solved by just taking rich folks' shixt. Nine times out of ten, it ain't even the rich folks they're spoiling, it's just folks that have more than they do. The rich seldom are touched. You've got the other side that thinks everything can be solved by taking the middle classes' shixt. There ain't really any middle class left, just folks that are less rich and those that are not as poor as some others.

Both sides do the bidding, at the uppermost levels, of the ultra rich who have no allegiance to anybody or anything except themselves and wealth. Our task must be to take the government back from the descendants, either physical or political, sometimes both, of the same masters we had in the old country and whom our ancestors sought to escape by coming here.

I tend to believe you are correct, Sam. When I try to understand what a writer is saying I get bogged down in trying to determine which definition he is attaching to his words. They mean one thing to him but may mean something entirely different to me. My definitions are the correct ones in my mind.

Not the first time someone has said that.

I love good propaganda. They can make it sound so convincing. Almost like it is written by professional liars

No kidding.. Conservatives never promise FREE stuff, and the GOP hasn't learned that either.. Therefore, you are correct - we'll have a Dem prez from now on..

No. All we have to do is promise to bankrupt our country quicker buy giving away more free stuff than the dimocraps.

Neocons like David Frum are going to be pointing fingers at everything except reality from here on out.

But the fact is,...as long as the GOP candidate says that all our dreams will come true from another war in the Middle East, you need to get used to a Democrat in the White House.

Dude if you think any of that BS is true....you're on another planet!! Conservatives are OUTNUMBERED.....by those on the dole and it's only gonna get moreso! The checks won't stop coming because as long as the paper holds out....Obama is gonna print $$$$$$; it just won't be worth the paper it's written on! Go back and study German History in the era 1918 to 1930 for an 'inkling' of what's in store for America!!

http://www.usagold.com/germannightmare.html

Yer a prime example that thinks dumbphuck wars'' in the ME is a 'conservative' policy.

It aint, it's flaming liberal schit, and Bristoe is spot on as usual.

Doc, I ain't got despair. It's call red ass.

I'm in total agreement with your thoughts of late.
========

I see you took Doc up on his offer for some prescribed drugs!

The only difference between a conservative and a liberal is which one gets to collect the money and spend it.

So you're a firm believer that all that Obama suggest and has created is the right thing to do!! Talk about 'dumbphuck'....that line of thinking suggest you're it!!

I beginning to think we are just old milk cows.We make the milk and someone else just takes it.

I'm over it...I'm through voting and I'm through caring. I'll spend the rest of my days caring about my family and friends and the country can go to hell.

Your post was incoherent babble. Settle down and try to make some sense.

Jorge, I don't think it's inexorable. I live in the heart of Latino country here in West Texas, and the vast majority of the hispanic Americans I interact with daily are as hard-working and conservative in their values as the "whites". It's not going to take much to convert them to the R column... electing Cruz as our senator was a big step in that direction.

Frankly, I see the conservative hispanic voters as a massive wave of change to the conservative side of politics nationally in the next 12-16 years.

Doc, i concur. I grew up in a predominantly Hispanic community. They were culturally quite conservative.

What...? Wait... you telling me that if the GOP makes groups of people feel like they are welcome in our country, that they might just vote them... Who woulda thunk...

Once the GOP accepts the fact there will undoubtedly be some level of intermediate amnesty and all this immigration reform chatter of the last 20 plus years becomes law,Hispanics will begin voting out of conviction,not retaliation.

I know the above will frost the nuts of some of my pards,like Greg,but it's a reality I've come to accept. It's a reality I think we would be wise to be more tolerant of.

This fight has been going on the entire 25 years of my son's life. Quit the politicking and feel good talk and do what everyone has wanted to do for 10 plus years and quit trying to play the political card table with the issue.

I've now represented 3 generations of Hispanic families in this area. Tossing the grandchildren for granddad's perceived indiscretions seems awkwardly hypocritical now.

Blend Romney's plan with this Dream Act so that everyone is not completely happy and be done with the [bleep] thing.

It's getting tired. To be honest,I wish Reagan or Bush gor the legislation passed.

My sincere mea culpa to those on the border front-lines. Greg...hope I'm still on the invite list. We have to put this to bed.

I like Northern Va Hispanics more than the democrats,anyways.

Chit, the Dems been meetin' immigrants with a bowl of soup, directions to the various government agencies, and advice 'bout the devil-known-as-Republican (or whatever the exisiting opposition party at the time was) since there's been immigration.

Only thing that's "changed", is now they give GPS coordinates to the various sources of "help".

Oh, immigrants of past assimilated - became American. Not so now, and that fact has been fueled by the left's ideology of "divide and conquer".

For the R's to stay viable on the national level, they're going to have to out-give the D's - and they will.

Red White and Blue Card, with a monthly stipend, I'm tellin ya, it's the answer!

Mr. Romney is living proof that good guys finish 2nd. Obama and his Chicago machine pulled out all the stops to make Mr. R look like a rich out of touch job stealing machine. Mr. R refused to get down in the mud with the dems. It cost him the presidency. kwg

He kept his self respect and the dems dont have or want any.

How could Romney get down in the mud and refute Obama? Romney is a socialist who has advocated everything Obama has or is doing. Romney is a white Obama, the second reason Romney lost the election.

It ain't about immigration.

Reagan granted amnesty, Bush then received less of the Hispanic vote. It's been downhill ever since too.

Look at Mr. Amnesty, McCain, how'd that work out.

It's about a belief in government, Teddy Kennedy and the liberals knew this in the sixties, and made it happen.

Team R stood like a bunch of dunces, grinning at short term low wages, and didn't see the light. The light was on the locomotive about to hit 'em. Well, "toot, toot" - it's here.

Red White and Blue Card. *how do you say that in Spanish?*

Now, as it's been for forty-freakin' years; it's not about deporting Granny - It's about stopping a further influx.

Cat's out of the bag now, time's PAST.

Red White and Blue Card.

You're exactly right. Being for another amnesty is playing right into the Dems trying to make this racial and it isn't. Most of those Hispanics in Texas have been there generations and are definitely conservative. When you change the values of the party to fit them, you're not turning them into conservatives, you're turning the party more liberal. Most of the Hispanics in Texas that are legal don't like the illegals any better than the rest of us. They take money and jobs that they could be doing.

I agree with you bob. Time to end it and end it for good. And that means a national id card and electronic verification.

Chamber of commerce and anarchists be damned. : p

Will

GOP needs to do a deal with the Mexicans. Win over the hispanic voters. Leave the black voters for the Dems.

Spanish is our future.

We can annex them now, or wait for them to absorb us on less than agreeable terms.

Mr. Romney IS an out of touch job-stealing machine. Hello?

Your suggestions would have mattered thirty-years ago (course thirty-years ago the D's would've fought it).

Time to end it? No, that ship already sailed.

The R's could come out TOMORROW with an open-borders platform, they wouldn't gain a thing.

It's not about immigration, it's about a belief in government.

Border's open, D-voters pourin' in - and D they'll stay.

*it ain't rocket science, Red White and Blue Card*

Jeff, every single political candidate on the national stage is OUT OF TOUCH. Not a single one of them have the slightest idea of what it is like to be a normal American. So, that criterion will have to go.

The only use for a David Frum article is at the bottom of a birdcage. For those of you throwing in the towel, I'm sure your children will be proud of you. I see Jeff O is trying real hard again.
The Republicans must stick with the basic tenets of our founding principles. They need to be explained and conveyed to those who have never heard them - especially if they attended public schools. It is utter foolishness to chase any racial minority group with some perk (amnesty)that tries to win their favor. The Dems have that sewn up and will never relinquish it.
There is a valid argument about the "takers and producers" but it is not a racial issue. Its simply an example of those who cling to a party which guarantees "goodies" for their vote. Votes for "goodies" is the setup that the Dems are great at orchestrating and using to their advantage. When the Republicans try it, they can never close the deal.
While there are more "voter fraud" cases coming to the forefront, the race in swing states was lost with less than 500,000 votes nationwide.
One study puts it at 380,000 and the other, 407,000.
The Country has challenges coming that we cannot foresee. It will test our citizens, the Constitution and our resolve.

Somewhere,.....somehow, along the way, you missed a couple of SALIENT points , or three, Bob.

You've CERTAINLY mis-read me, and probably as well the rest of this local crew here.

You'll ALWAYS be welcome here, regardless.

GTC

Best post in the thread. Pat Buchanan has long predicted that demographic shifts will doom the R party. I trust his judgement/opinion much more than Frums.

Somewhere,.....somehow, along the way, you missed a couple of SALIENT points , or three, Bob.

You've CERTAINLY mis-read me, and probably as well the rest of this local crew here.

You'll ALWAYS be welcome here, regardless.

GTC
=========

Thank you,Greg. Help me fill in the gaps on the salient points. I certainly wish to make sure my opinion hasn't been formed on some misperceptions or fallacies.

Mako...influx is part and parcel of immigration reform. Further,if I'm reading you right,Romney's plan seems to be a appropiate compromise. I agree influx is the paramount issue,it's actually the crux of my post. It was my intended crux,anyways.

If immigration reform is legislatively passed,what has you believing that ethnicity would still be predominantly democratic in philosophy? The awkwardly described "far right of center" position is precisely why Obama received the large majority of the Hispanic vote,imo. I don't know how you can distinguish influx vs. a Hispanic that's already been here for 3,5 10 years or longer;paying taxes and contributing to SS.

way too many simply dance around it. Let's just put honest positions and possible resolutions on the table to see if we can at least get past the 30 year demarcation lines.

I'll start. I like Romney's plan with the caveat it doesn't apply to those Hispanics who have paid into the Treasury and SS for at least 5 consecutive years. This specific class and any immediate family members for whom they provide support get to stay,without recourse.

National ID card which somehow specifically denotes those who are qualified to vote with the addition of voting machine software that immediately cross-references whether that ID has already placed a vote.

In any event,let me know what your position is on the resolution of this issue,if you don't mind. Like to hear from Greg in this regard,as well.

I'd like to have this issue completely settled and resolved by 4 pm Mountain Time.

I feel like we elected a tyrant to rule our country. Obama rules by decree ignoring the constitution. Then there is his purposeful actions to keep the country in recession in order to enable his fundamental change to the country. He is seeking to destroy our country so he can build his utopian progressive fascist state.

I've seen the reform, and compromise before. Democrats lie. They'll get the leagliaztion, then reverse course on securing the border. They've done it before - they'll do it again.

They've also done the same on "compromise" with regards to increasing taxs, and reducing spending. The tax hikes go forth, the agreed reductions in spending don't/won't.

You're headed into a trap - don't say you weren't warned.

Border's open, 75% D-voters comin' in. *tick, tick, tick*



Simply look at the voting history of Hispanics over the last forty-years. Teddy Kennedy and his cohorts KNEW the predisposition of Hispanic voters in the sixties, and capitalized, and fosterd this from then-'til-now. How you gunna change that? (you don't)

Forty-years in the making, and now well entrenched. The deaf ear, and outright cowardice of the R's has indeed "come home to roost." The devious, plotting, win-at-all-costs of the D's never sleeps - ever.

Red White and Blue Card.

Oh, the final nail in the coffin on this issue will be the campaign demagoguing. From now 'til the end of time (probably in Spanish too):

"we'll get your cousins here too, and give 'em health care, and food, and..... THOSE OTHER MONSTERS, well, they want to _________".

"Mr. Republican, tear down that wall!"

Mark my words.

With the Republican side legalization is all about cheap labor. Always has been. The Dems want the votes. You're right either way, it's a trap and no good can come of it. Bottom line, not even talking about terrorism, drugs or weird diseases...we're full up here. We don't need more people. The scientists told us to quit breeding years ago and educated folks did as they were told. The uneducated and stupid didn't. Now many of the same elitists or their type, as the scientists who gave us those orders, backed up by the stupid and ignorant, want to leave the borders open and welcome bad things into our midst. We simply can't compromise on some things.

Most politicians are psychotic suckassses who our forefathers would have cheerfully hanged.

Gingrich: Yeah, we have to get immigration off the table
November 13,2012

Most readers seem to disagree with my perspective on the necessity of resolving the immigration-reform issue while we still have a say in how it gets implemented. Newt Gingrich, however, sees the same problem that I do, which is that the issue is an albatross around the neck of the GOP as it tries to reach out to non-white voters. �You can�t say to someone, �I�d really like to get your vote over jobs,�� Gingrich tells the Morning Joe panel, ��and by the way, we�re kicking your grandmother out.� It doesn�t work.�

Opponents of immigration reform say that the �Asian problem� can�t be because of the party�s stance on illegal immigration because that�s an issue primarily related to Hispanic immigrants from our hemisphere. Wrong.

The party�s position on immigration is off-putting to many ethnic and racial groups because it reflects, they believe, a GOP that doesn�t want them and doesn�t want a diverse society.

David Goldman offers some insight on the subject:

Asian-Americans, like any other immigrant group, come here with the hope of bringing family members with them. Tough enforcement of immigration laws makes life as hard for them as it does for any other immigrant group, and frustrates their hope of reuniting families in America. The result of our present immigration laws is that we fail to keep out the illegals we don�t want, and make it harder to absorb the skilled and energetic immigrants we do want. There will be endless discussion during the next few months of [Mitt] Romney�s mistake in moving to the right of Rick Perry on immigration during the Republican primaries, and I will leave the detailed parsing to the professionals. I hope the professionals talk to Asian-Americans first.

Asians now outnumber Hispanics among new immigrants. As Goldman puts it, �If we Republicans can�t persuade our most successful, entrepreneurial, family-oriented citizens to support us, we won�t be in business much longer.�

It�s that perceived hostility to diversity that will lock the GOP out of urban centers, where Democrats enjoyed a big turnout, even with a better economic message and policy. Note that the GOP share of the Asian vote declined by an even greater degree in 2012 than the decline in the Hispanic demographic. The Republican Party has to improve its standing among these demographics � not by pandering, but by offering conservative solutions that improve their lives. But in order to make the argument, we need to improve the perception of our agenda, and immigration reform is a big obstacle to that goal.

Yep

Open borders, and Red White and Blue Card.

70% or more are gunna pull the D lever.

Strange how those of us who actually live here come up with the same conclusions.

I'm gonna throw out a caveat though. All "Mexicans" here in the US ain't the same, anymore than Yankees are the same as Southerners.

Most Texas Mexicans date from three or four generations or more back, originally refugees from revolution and political unrest. Really, they are the descendants of immigrants like the rest of us and like for most of us the country of their origin is something of an abstraction, like how all my grandparents are Irish but I've never been nor do I pay attention much to that nation.

This is why radical separatist Latino politics don't get much traction here.

Go to New Mexico and its a different again, the ones I've encountered there were descendants of old New Mexico, been on the land for centuries, leaning towards resentment of the more recent invaders, Anglo and Hispanic both.

Arizona/California? A whole different ballgame, actual Mexicans or first generation born-heres, and Mexican flags abounding. How many Mexican-born folks live in LA now... a million?

I can state for a fact that, here in Texas, on a social level nobody really gives a damn about the differences 'tween Hispanic and White, to call me and my wife "interracial" seems laughable.

Go to small towns in Northern New Mexico however and we'll get hard looks.

But Arizona/California? Plumb shocking in the big cities at least how distinct the lines are drawn along social/political lines.

Other's MMV,
Birdwatcher

You were social climbing when that lovely wife of yours looked twice.

It's interesting to note the stark differences between yours and Mako's posts. I don't agree with him as to the prospective vote once immigration reform occurs but his opinion can't be ignored as it is also still shared by many.

Further,I agree as to the regional disparities and that is why I previously stated a compromise that makes everyone partially unhappy,or completely dissatisfied,will ultimately be the bed that's made.

To paint is as a total picture of doom presents as a dogmatic philosophy that's been the headline for 30 plus years.

Good or bad,make the bed and end it.

Good post Birdie and as I've posted countless times, Latinos (unlike say blacks or jews) are FAR from a monolithic voting block. I was just in Texas last month (San-Antonio/Uvalde/bracketville area) and the support for Romney(as evidenced by numerous placards, etc) was clearly visible. But just as you say, those ten generation "Texicans" are a far cry from what is coming in through our borders now and when coupled with the purposeful blocking of immigrants from First and even Second World countries by the democraps, the change in my iew IS inexorable.

Heard a guy on the radio who sounded Latin American and claimed to be Latin American say that Latin American immigrants vote D because that's how politics operates where they come from. They vote for the guy who gives them stuff. Immigration policy isn't going to change that.

This theory is backed up by Hispanic voting patterns after other amnesties.

Making the R sale tougher is US advertisements on the radio in Mexico for US Foodstamps.

All these posts with all these 'feel-good' ideas and arm-chair directions - along with righteous chest-thumping of 'conservative values'..

I love it.. Unfortunately - the chance of any of it coming true now is the same as if T. Woods will win the first Mars Open Championship..

You guys are all in denial - and frankly, it's understandable; no one wants to allow the reality of where this country's now rushing headlong to enter into their brains.. I suffered some of it myself over the last four years.. But NOW, the reality is here. I see the reality. The worst P in American history is re-elected - a Marxist-socialist, American-hating sob who should be in a federal prison rotting away..


JFK's famous line, "Ask not what your country can do for you................" is now reversed to, "Ask not what you can do for your country - demand your country do everything for you!"


Wake up - face it.. This is where we are today.. Prepare..

removed

It's not the Hispanics who have been here for generations (many, before there was an America) that are on the gravy train - and votin' D. It's the flood of illegals, and has been for forty years. When looked at as a whole, 60% (very conservatively) vote D. It's not hard to figure out.

No different than if you looked at Irishmen who've been here for generations, vs an influx of illegals seeking a better life. If the Irish could swim better, the D's would be draggin' 'em ashore, givin' 'em a bowl of soup, directions to government services, and warnin' 'em 'bout that devil-named-Republican.

So, the proposed solution?

Open the border, make a pathway to citizenship.

Just plainly STUPID.

Ahhh well, so it is.

Bingo... illegals voting, nonamericans voting, noncitizens voting... and we are supposed to cater to this demographic for their illegal votes... and this policy coming from republicans.

Nothing surprises me anymore.

Kent

Non-Americans being elected president...

David Frum was very much like Casandra, able to see the election outcome but no one would listen. The GOP took a nice moderate New England Republican and made him unelectable. What did Mitt Rommney ever do to you?

Too bad it didn't get solved by 4:00... tomorrow can we address the Polynesian-American vote?

Kent

Ya, everybody says that. My wife and my dog, always been more popular than me

Well, since we solved the immigration problem already...

Smartest thing I ever did was move to San Antone, and yepper, I did move here specifically for the women. Not just to add to my tally, there was plenty of opportunities for that in college(both times), but to find a wife.

As a group they are warm, friendly, loyal, fun loving, family oriented, wanting to start families and satisfied with not much in the way of material things at all. And they don't mind if the guy drives either.

Even so, times is tough nowadays for guys out there, I lucked out is all

Birdwatcher

Your tinfoil hat is crinkling there bud!

No despair here Doc just determination to take this country back from the libtards that are ruining it.

and you are blind.

Well, maybe. Always a possibility.

But a tyrant, ruling by decree, intentionally keeping us in recession etc? C'mon.

.... that "quote" is complete bullcrap. More tinfoil nonsense.

So you don't like socialism huh? I certainly would love to see you cry and holler if we did not have ANY socialism whatsoever connected to our country.

No Welfare, food stamps, and all connected with elderly help, child abuse, etc. all
important issues.
No Social Security
No Uneployment compensation
No National Guard to help with hurricane or earthquake disasters
No FEMA to send help for people
No Corps of Army Engineers
No Coast Guard
No Military
No State or Federal assistance..Veterans, etc.

So you don't want a social run country.......well I certainly do!!
Anyone that does not see the necessity in having social issues run by the Government has been filled with fear and stupidity by Limbaugh, Beck and Faux News and that ilk. No one is taking your hunting rifles. Read the new PROPOSED
ammendment instead of listening to idiots.

So how do we accomplish that? By nominating, endorsing and voting for the Romney/McCain 'conservative'? I for one am tired of sucking off whomever the R's nominate because it's the lessor evil.

I am young enough to actually give a sh.it and young enough that I actually NEED to give a sh.it....for my childrens' sake.

I'm getting sick and f.ucking tired of this same old sh.it!!!! I'm pissed off and have been since the republicans elected the POS again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SS is an investment of 15.3% of earnings throughout my lifetime, that's hundreds of thousands of dollars that if invested instead of stolen, would represent a substantial gain on maturity (retirement age)... it's not a social giveaway.

Unemployment is an insurance paid for in an employee's cost to employer at high premiums low returns... it's not a social giveaway.

Military/national defense is a constitutional mandate to the federal government... it's not a social giveaway.

FEMA is a joke along with TSA.

Welfare is a social giveaway better left to private charities.

Kent

Taken out of context i'll bet





�America, as the center of the globalized financial markets, was sucking up the savings of the world.
�Destroying America will be the culmination of my life�s work.�
Soros also told �The Australian� that the world financial crisis was �stimulating� and �in a way, the culmination of my life�s work.�

I think the things that DocRocket highlighted, in particular, make sense.
Basically the Party has to adapt to change...or go the way of the dinosaur.
All the doom-and-gloom is humorous in the sense that much of it, if not all of it, is coming from those who previously talked about patriotism, the American way, 'pickin' yourself up by your boot straps' and moving forward in the face of adversity, 'when the goin' gets tough...the tough get goin'', etc.. Damn! Lots of guys here are young enough, with young families, that they need to give a crap! They have to give a crap! Since when has such defeatism been a part of the positive attitudes mentioned above?

Perhaps not a social "giveaway"......but it certainly is a social entitlement.

Social Security is a tax on workers to pay for a government retirement entitlement system. It was initiated that way, and it exists that way to this very day. It's decidedly not a personal investment.

Your contribution to Social Security is not tracked, invested, paid out to you, nor does it retain value....as any other investment. Your entitlement......or SS payment....is a result of an algorithm that defines what you will receive when eligible. It is loosely correlated to what you have been taxed throughout your working life. If you are fortunate to live long.....you will likely receive far in excess to what you contributed plus interest. If you die early, without dependents (which is another story entirely), you will have received far less than you contributed plus interest. Your account will be closed. Period.

Your Social Security entitlement is a "promise to pay", while you're eligible and alive, regardless of how the economy or markets perform.

This may have appeal..............if you never consider the effect of government mismanaging this and all the other facets of federal budgeting and managing.

Ya, it would seem far-fetched...

...but only if a man's acts, associations, and words throughout his life prior to becoming President have absolutely no bearing upon his motives and actions while holding that office.

Birdwatcher

It is a social giveaway to those that have never paid in but receive payments... and those that did pay are 'entitled' to be paid.

I didn't say I like having 15.3 of my gross earnings taken away and then mismanaged... but being lumped together with social welfares to make soundbite numbers like 47% is ignorant to the extreme... look at the parrots that took up the 47% mantra, another small fraction of disenchanting the base, with each fraction adding up to contribute to political loss.

Hispanic vote, women vote, independent vote, libertarian vote... [bleep] chasing all that, you won't change voters minds with abasement... stand on your principles, put a viable candidate up and your base will stand with you no matter what ethnicity or gender. Pissing your base off to chase liberal snatch... well, it doesn't go over well in any relationship.

Kent

+1

Whether SS is a giveaway or an earned entitlement is not important. It was flawed from the start, then mismanaged, and is now numerically untenable. To argue in it's favor is to ignore the reality of math. Math rules despite our desires to the contrary.

I'm not arguing in it's favor... LOL... I ran the math on here during the primaries in favor of SS reform and eventual dissolution... But saying anyone on SS or accepting some payment back for that 15.3% is on the socialist tit is full of chit.

That 47% soundbite cost the GOP more votes than begging the hispanic liberals proposed here will ever get...

There's the math.

Kent

This is an idiotic discussion from the start.

Why not concentrate efforts on improving SS instead of accepting extremist views about its long term future. That program can be fixed so easily that it isn't even on the radar compared to other programs. It alone has probably done more to prevent our elderly from living in abject poverty than any other program in hisotry. Ever. Private or public.

It can be fixed and a sane political stance would be to do so asap and quit wasting capital trying to convince every else that it is socialism or communism or whatever. That's a dead end.

Will

Pretty much... I simply disagree with the perception that SS is a social giveaway (welfare) to those that payed hundreds of thousands into the system, putting them in the same class as an illegal alien baby popper on welfare... I also disagree that SS and military pensions should have been included in the 47%... somehow that means I'm a supporter of the status quo, big government machine because... and then the Blah/Blah starts.

You can't have reform until you separate each program, not lump them together in a 47% 'comprehensive' soundbite.

Kent

ABsolutely spot on.

What the party has lacked is a clear concise vision for the nation and a substantial plan to obtain it.

The old party heads, the "machine" as TR called it, continuously break the legs the party is trying to stand on.

Christ! Such an intelligent comment. What's that doing on the 'fire?

AcesNeights, I don't think you understand. WE ARE ALREADY MOSTLY A SOCIALLY RUN COUNTRY AND HAVE BEEN STARTING WITH ROOSEVELT.

What I posted above, in my first post, is all the socially run, Federal run issue's that we use and still need today. If we did not have them just think of all the people that would have died and will die without them.

Maybe I should have posted in a different manner, but WE NEED THOSE SOCIALLY GOVERNMENT RUN PROGRAMS THAT WE ALREADY HAVE!

Laffin'...please don't let this be another plant we have to run off.

The article in it's entirety is an overreach connecting the two demographics. As for the bolded, I put up the solution yesterday but it had an expiration of 4:00 to be accepted... oh well.

Kent

How do you get to overreach?

I agree this is the greater problem, education proper education is surely required to rectify situation. cheers NC

Really? I work with hispanics and asians every day. Mostly hispanics, but a lot of asians, too.

My neighbors are hispanic Americans. Most of my patients are hispanic Americans. Most of the people I buy stuff from in my town are hispanic Americans. Most of them have been here in Texas for at least 3 generations, some much longer than that. They are as solidly conservative as any white folks I know. But they feel that the Republican party doesn't want them or represent them.

The asian Americans I've worked with in the past (and some here in my present situation, too... they are hardworking people who want to get in on the oil boom here in Texas) are the same kind of people. Solidly conservative, but they feel alienated by the perception of the Republicans as the "white people's party".

You may think the article is an overreach, but the basic substance of it is absolutely true, in my experience. Immigrants are far and away the hardest working people I know (I should know, I'm an immigrant myself, and I work damn hard!) and as a whole are fiscally, socially, and ethically conservative. We need to be bringing them into mainstream conservative politics, not alienating them.

Then you should have read my post yesterday... you're not saying anything I haven't said for 3 years here.

The overreach is that immigration reform is the same voting issue between an American hispanic and a repatriated Asian...

If you truly wish to address demographic issues, at least personalize them to each demographic.

Kent

I'm not sure I know which post from yesterday you refer to... you had several, one deleted. Is that it?

The proof of the overreach is the very answer you wrote above about your experiences. You never mentioned immigration reform as a voting deterrent to conservative American minorities you know... perceived racism bolstered by MSM, liberal politicians, reverend 'whoever', hollywood and yes the GOP by not addressing the issue is a huge image problem.

But the article was immigration reform and conservative votes.

Kent

Too bad you're not hispanic.

Is that how they describe themselves? it seems to me that is one of the problems we as Americans have to deal with - are we "Americans" or something else?

We need to all pull together rather than pull our own hyphenation out of America. Not enough people look at our country, but what's in it for them.

No... and no conservative american likes to be patronized... but liberal ones do... but not by enlightened white guys that their liberal leaders tell them are evil.

Kent

Yes, you are certainly correct. SS is something we have worked for. But all the rest mentioned certainly are Federally funded. Anything that is funded by the Government is considered Socially funded.

Obama is an extremely intelligent person and perhaps that is the whole problem from the very beginning. Why are the Republicans so afraid of him? Because he is African-American?
Why do they listen to some old, ignoramus such as McCain that thinks he knows it all when he picked the dumbest, most ignorant, sickening woman to run for VP with him for President. He must still be angry to this day for that loss.
Someone who crashed 3 airplanes. Would have failed college but for his daddy and grandaddy. Kissed up to his captors and it has been said his facial injuries were due to his plane crash when he was captured. Not from torture.
He was nasty and tempermental to other veterans that were injured in wars.
He didn't want his first wife after she was injured in a car wreck and wheel chair bound.
He is a nasty, demented old goat.
If he and the rest of the GOP are your heros then that's your problem. Big time.

You have these inner struggles often?

Kent

Who's sock puppet are you, anyway ?

Your text and syntax seem pretty familiar.

You here for some comeradrie, .........or to display your d$ckhead capabilities ?

Welcome ?

Nah,......eat chit and [bleep] right off.

GTC

Hey Marshmallow4Brains - do us a big favor and go sharpen your chainsaws! What a moron!

A true observation on your part which will be quickly dismissed by folks here as wrong and irrelevant.

Kent

You've got four sides basically. You've got a few folks at the top who are using their wealth as a weapon to manipulate everybody and who care about nothing but personal gain. You've got folks at the bottom who truly don't want to do anything but eat and breed and have a warm place to shixt. Caught in the middle are one side that sees their intellectual gifts from God being enslaved by the people they pay to make those dreams a reality. The other side in the middle are hard working folks who see the people they work for as never wanting to pay up and basically enslaving them for their labor. Both the middle sides have a point and neither can see it from the other's view. The top and bottom will always be there and will always be a problem. The middle's inability to reconcile is what gave rise to the labor unions. The two political parties increasingly are just used to pander to both of the sides in the middle and are really representative of nothing of substance or form, just appearance.

That sums things up pretty well, I'd say.

I weren't talking about you when I posted that.

On the topic tho I do believe the GOP missed a huge strategic opportunity by not running a Rubio or a Martinez for the Veep slot in this past election.

Just like the way the South was for generations with Yellow Dog Democrats, perceptions can take a generation to change. Hard to argue that either of the above choices would have materially changed the outcome of this election for the worse.

We here on thois board think and thrash out issues one way or the other, I don't believe the majority of voters act that way. Most folks vote on gut impressions. If we didn't win, what at least would have been remembered next time around is that Republicans tried to put a Hispanic in office.

If ya dont think gut impressions and image are issues, imagine either party trying to run two Hispanics, Asians or two Black folks on their P/VP ticket and how that would be perceived by the rest of us.

That is EXACTLY how this past election was perceived by many folks in my neck of the woods. The GOP ran yet another set of lily-White candidates. Close as the last three elections have been, NOBODY can afford give up any advantage, ESPECIALLY the GOP.

Note, choosing a Hispanic VP candidate would NOT have implied that any policy or platform message at all was being "watered down", what it would have reflected is a realistic assessment of how close elections are won.

Birdwatcher

I would have run Rubio as president over Romney, a 65 year old stuff white shirt baby boomer... [bleep] me. But Romney's win was a GOP primary battle and I lost, we lost.

The GOP needs to cultivate some exciting young candidates that can sway the next generation. Race or gender is not important, conservative star power is...

The GOP 'could' offer policies that appeal to all... liberals offer racist peddling... GOP runs around trying to pander to all and say they aren't racist.

Promote conservative, human values across the board without pandering to individual demographics, and the conservatives of each will feel included and vote accordingly.

If we can't win as conservative then the GOP is dead.

Kent

Here's a reenactment of the post I wrote in response to Bob's specific callout of Greg and desire for a immigration reform resolution. Greg doesn't need me defending him but I'm more vocal on the political issues and it gets attributed to Greg by proxy... so I'll answer...

Criticism/tweeking of policy is encouraged... just say'n I'm a racist on emotion will be fervently debated... LOL

............................

Obviously, no matter what the az crew say here on the 'fire, we are stereotyped as racists. Which is exactly what the Dems do to the repubs with blacks, hispanics and other minorities... doesn't matter what we say, we are the problem according to Hoyle.

First off hispanic is a broad term, put an American with hispanic roots in the same category as an illegal of Mexican/Latin america origin and you better run. My wife and son-in-law will rip you a new ass.

Funny that the american hispanics I know, and I know a few. hate Obama with a passion... they also don't like the repub choices, same as me, but hold their nose, same as me. Of course these are hard working family orientated americans, same as me... It's ironic that the inlaws (son-in-laws parents), who are transplants from Chicago, both are from an 11 kid Puerto Rican second gen family... hate democrats and Obama. Their demographic isn't hispanic, it's they are well educated professionals fairly well to do with much to lose in higher taxes and socialism... compare that to someone who has nothing to lose and more to gain, of any ethnicity.

Hispanic immigration, illegal or amnesty, is not a voting issue for 'American' hispanics... what does sway their vote is racist hate speech from MSM, NAACP, La Raza, politicians, Reverend 'whoever'... all telling them the repubs hate minorities and the dems are their saviors.

Immigration reform policy... one last time from me as it never seems to stick in anyone's mind.

Issues...

100 billion spent in welfare services on illegals per year by taxpayers.

30% of crime committed by a 5% demographic.

Drug smuggling, a social issue by itself but more a security issue for those living on the border or working LE in the areas becoming a war zone.

Human smuggling, a terrible human rights issue against desperate folks taken advantage of by heinous criminals.

Identity theft with fake papers, especially SS cards.

Negative employment issues.

Terrorist threat.

...

Resolutions... and no, we will never reach 100% on any but a positive start and increasing percentage over time will make a huge effect...

Close the open border. If that's a combination fence, military fine.

Remove social expenditures for illegals, if they can't pay their way or be sponsored by family/friends, they don't belong here.

Once the border is tightened, start an employer sponsored guest worker program. Open employment centers at border facilities where employers can hire employees already known to them or willing to sponsor, transport and assimilate into the american work force. Background checks, paying taxes, removing fear of discovery, even the occasional intimation from unscrupulous employers... If they lose their job or quit, a grace period to be reemployed/sponsored. Mexico will still receive funds sent back to family... why do folks have to cross through dangerous environments herded by vicious criminals... which is the dem policy of turning a blind eye.

It would effectively remove the human smuggling issue from the drug smuggling, body hacking, american killing, terrorist aiding, Aztlan loving MF'ers that Greg and us others are constantly talking about.. and somehow being construed as us being racist political advocates.

Kent